<!--quoteo(post=1958983:date=Aug 8 2012, 12:56 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Aug 8 2012, 12:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is, dark and red rooms are ugly. Big part of the mapper job is to adjust the different lighting sources intensity and color. Putting black or red everywhere destroys his beautiful artwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My counter to this is two-fold.
First, with maps like Summit and Tram, random spawns remove this issue. Every room, in one game or another, will end up powered when the marines spawn nearby. The one room on Summit that is never a marine start or nearby is crossroads, and that room gets powered every other game because its an important tech point.
Second, while changing the power system could void some extra detail work on some rooms in maps without full random starts (Mineshaft and Docking, for instance), the current power system removes much of what we get out of the dynamic lighting from every map. Its actually quite rare, in my experience at least, that the blackout occurs when marines are actually there to see it, aside from their start point. But as a marine, that's one of my most enjoyed parts. Lights go out, everyone turns on their flashlights, and the shadows themselves start to play tricks on me. I've seen never seen summit reception's lights go out. I've never seen lights out in the room between sub and ventilation. I've seen glass hallway unlit once due to a failed phase gate attempt. I hate to say it, but those rooms might as well have static lighting.
An idea I've wanted to see for a while, as mentioned by Zek above, is infestation shorting out unbuilt/destroyed power nodes. Even aside from the advantage of the aliens, or the thrill of a marine, have you seen a hive built in a room experiencing blackout? It looks <i>beautiful</i>.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1959227:date=Aug 8 2012, 06:28 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Aug 8 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Use this same effect as a base for marines on the ground and have it show periodically. Every 8 seconds or so your HUD would "shimmer" and show you what was powered in your view<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I still don't see what the powergrid system brings to the table at the moment, but most of those changes make sense. I'm not so sure about the one quoted above though. In terms of aesthetics, I think the game would be better served by keeping the dark alien-esque theme rather than add bright shimmering effects and saturated colors reminiscent of Star Trek.
<!--quoteo(post=1959263:date=Aug 8 2012, 08:23 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Aug 8 2012, 08:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959263"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just can't get over the fact that the lights going out is meant to be a desirable playing field advantage for the aliens, albeit to a lesser extent with emergency lighting, but they're incapable of ever doing that in the areas they control most completely. That's not right. The lights being on by default is one thing, but if nothing else infestation over an unbuilt power node should turn them off or something. That way the comm can make sure to drop a cyst there to get the lights off if he wants.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would like to see something like this, where aliens could somehow bit down a powernode socket covered in infestation or maybe have the alien comm grow something over it to turn out the lights. This would also add something the alien comm could do. Whatever, I would like to see alien given the ability to cut the lights in rooms with hives
<!--quoteo(post=1959233:date=Aug 8 2012, 09:36 AM:name=Sops)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sops @ Aug 8 2012, 09:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959233"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So if I understand correctly you are not adjusting lighting at all?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like it, If you guys are worried abnout offending your artists, then sorry- but gameplay > art.
<b>having the infestation be brightly lit makes zero sense and conveys a distict advantage on marines in the place they should be the weakest.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1959259:date=Aug 8 2012, 11:17 AM:name=Sops)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sops @ Aug 8 2012, 11:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959259"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Currently marines can more way too quickly, when I play as marine I typically just pick a direction and sprint until I reach another tech point, allowing the team to quickly cap a few RTs in the middle of the map and because I move so quickly when I do come up on a skulk I can normally tell by the timing exact which hive they started in. This doesn't seem right to me, marines should have to be more cautious when expanding out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The innate speed advantage of Aliens counters this beautifully imo.
One of the nice asymmetries in NS1 was the flexibility and quick growth of the Marines versus the cautious territory holding, but faster response/invade times of Aliens. This was mainly due to the res model. Aliens could only afford as many RTs as they could protect since they were more precious than Marine RTs. This has somewhat transferred over into NS2 due to the slower expansion of Infestation.
I personall advocate the partial lighting at start, bright lighting w/ power node, and emergency w/o powernode. As it is emergency lights are pretty powerful deterrant and disadvantage to the Marines. Switching tint like suggested previously would also be pretty interesting.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An idea I've wanted to see for a while, as mentioned by Zek above, is infestation shorting out unbuilt/destroyed power nodes. Even aside from the advantage of the aliens, or the thrill of a marine, have you seen a hive built in a room experiencing blackout? It looks beautiful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed with Fanatic. This game needs to get more moody and distinct, not more cartoony and glowy like most games seem to do now. I love the idea of the lights being off in the beginning, or the lights being different colors depending on control. The art would be even cooler looking if you turned on the lights to reveal rooms rather than having everything being lit the same. This might be yet another issue of making a more accessible game rather than a more awesome niche one though. I really think the more distinct features you put in the more your game will stand out though, at the least.
<!--quoteo(post=1959380:date=Aug 8 2012, 01:13 PM:name=Billax)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Billax @ Aug 8 2012, 01:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959380"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed with Fanatic. This game needs to get more moody and distinct, not more cartoony and glowy like most games seem to do now. I love the idea of the lights being off in the beginning, or the lights being different colors depending on control. The art would be even cooler looking if you turned on the lights to reveal rooms rather than having everything being lit the same. This might be yet another issue of making a more accessible game rather than a more awesome niche one though. I really think the more distinct features you put in the more your game will stand out though, at the least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The developer mentioned they aren't adding Horror elements to the game. The unknown coming from the darkness is a horror element, which is why they don't want to add complete darkness, but only red lights dance club :)
Every room used to start with a powernode pre built into them which used to start with aliens destroing them straight away which ua=sed to be anoyying spawing in a dark room all the time (as alien). Also rooms that marines havent been to yet and haing no power would be confusing thinking the aliens would be close by when infact they just killed a node and moved on.
<!--quoteo(post=1958895:date=Aug 8 2012, 04:59 AM:name=Insurance Salesman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insurance Salesman @ Aug 8 2012, 04:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That said, I think it would be cool if the lights flickered sporadically or had a dimmer tone to them until the power was turned on, to make marine-controlled areas more distinct from "neutral" land and add to the feeling of reclaiming the building you are fighting in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never thought about that befor but i really like the idea
<!--quoteo(post=1959385:date=Aug 8 2012, 02:19 PM:name=CobraCommander)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CobraCommander @ Aug 8 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959385"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The developer mentioned they aren't adding Horror elements to the game. The unknown coming from the darkness is a horror element, which is why they don't want to add complete darkness, but only red lights dance club :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha yeah, I understand not wanting to add horror elements. They seem to be going for a competitive game that has longevity rather than a bunch of stuff that will wow you at first and then get old and I get that. I just want them to have enough cool, distinctive stuff to pull new players in. NS2 does pretty well in that category.
It's been said probably over 1000 times, but I would really like to see the lights permanently off when the power goes down. This red backup light stuff is pretty stupid. It ruins the experience of the power going down.
<!--quoteo(post=1959489:date=Aug 8 2012, 06:24 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Aug 8 2012, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I made this post in another thread, but here's a summary:
Aliens have a CLEAR advantage in the dark - thermal vision vs a dinky flashlight.
Neutral rooms controlled by neither team should be NEUTRAL on a gameplay level. This means both teams need to be able to see. 'nuff said.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If all decisions were made like this you would have a completely symmetrical game. What you gotta think like instead is since the aliens get that advantage, give the marines a different advantage to counter it.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1959498:date=Aug 9 2012, 11:42 AM:name=Knight of Virtue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Knight of Virtue @ Aug 9 2012, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959498"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not: Built node = lights full on unbuilt node = emergency lighting "infested" node = lights off/phase in and out/very dim?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> infested mode = green glow from infestation, and orange glow from cysts and other kharaa buildings = win. :)
it would really give the impression that the kharaa are creating their own habitat - like an alien rainforest type thing.
Anyone feel like modding this as a proof on concept? seems like it could be easy since a lot of system are already in place. (not that i know what i'm talking about...)
<!--quoteo(post=1959495:date=Aug 8 2012, 08:33 PM:name=Billax)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Billax @ Aug 8 2012, 08:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959495"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If all decisions were made like this you would have a completely symmetrical game. What you gotta think like instead is since the aliens get that advantage, give the marines a different advantage to counter it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, not this time. The teams are asymmetrical in plenty of ways - movement styles, attack styles, etc. On the other hand, every single player (aside from some awesome blind people I've seen) needs to be able to see in order to play a video game, especially first person shooters. Dying to stuff you can't see is not fun, and would be a horrible turn-off to first-time players.
In Starcraft, on neutral ground, the only advantages one unit has over another is inherent to their design - ranged vs melee, damage type vs armor type, HP vs res cost, blah blah. The terrain, however, is neutral. One player is not blind to the other's units by default. Can that be changed over time by the players, or with different units? Yes, you can research cloak, or some specialty units come cloaked. However, it's never right away at the start of the map - it always requires player input to earn those situations. Again - players gaining control over part of a map is what should produce an advantage for them in that area.
There are times where you take advantage of the map to earn the upper hand - use high ground in SC, or set up an ambush clinging to the ceiling/vents/whatever in NS2. That's enough for default.
Red power down lighting by default until a power node is built makes so much sense I cant believe this change is being overlooked. The current red lighting is still bright enough for a marine to reasonable vision (a lot of places its not easy picking marines out unless you use alien vision in red lighting).
Marines get normal lighting when they build a power node and current state of affairs loops.
Infestation destroying power nodes (built & unbuilt) also makes sense on a lot of levels, this then opens up the suggested lighting from cysts (or the infestation itself glows) which could provide a different lighting scheme (ie green instead of red) or level (perhaps 10% darker).
These seem really simple change that are not bringing anything into the game thats not already there, these could bring a really nice visual indicator to map control through the lighting system. Shame if something like this is overlooked.
<!--quoteo(post=1959507:date=Aug 8 2012, 07:15 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Aug 8 2012, 07:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, not this time. The teams are asymmetrical in plenty of ways - movement styles, attack styles, etc. On the other hand, every single player (aside from some awesome blind people I've seen) needs to be able to see in order to play a video game, especially first person shooters. Dying to stuff you can't see is not fun, and would be a horrible turn-off to first-time players.
In Starcraft, on neutral ground, the only advantages one unit has over another is inherent to their design - ranged vs melee, damage type vs armor type, HP vs res cost, blah blah. The terrain, however, is neutral. One player is not blind to the other's units by default. Can that be changed over time by the players, or with different units? Yes, you can research cloak, or some specialty units come cloaked. However, it's never right away at the start of the map - it always requires player input to earn those situations. Again - players gaining control over part of a map is what should produce an advantage for them in that area.
There are times where you take advantage of the map to earn the upper hand - use high ground in SC, or set up an ambush clinging to the ceiling/vents/whatever in NS2. That's enough for default.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well of course if you can't see anything that's no good. There is a flashlight for marines, which I think creates a really cool dynamic as you have to search around for aliens on the ceilings and stuff. I'm not saying it's necessarily a good idea for gameplay, just pointing out I think the "it's not balanced" argument doesn't make sense here as you can always think of something else to counter/negate it, or just give marines a similarly balanced advantage that works in favor of the atmosphere of the game. You could have marines throw in or set up light sources like flares or something that light up the room while you set up power. Or whatever, that's just right off the top of my head. I'm sure with some brainstorming it could be done.
We have thought long and hard about this. In theory it may sound like a good idea to clearly convey the concept of the power vs no powered areas by having the unpowered areas start out in darkness or emergency lighting, but it is just too problematic in practice. Players end up spending a large majority of their time in darkness, or in red lit rooms. For a single player horror themed game, maybe that is ok, but for a fast paced multiplayer FPS, it makes for a very frustrating experience. It is also very monotonous, and players will tire very quickly playing a game where they have to spend most of their time in completely red lit areas, and where everything looks and feels the same. It destroys the visuals of the maps and the hard work that has been put into them, it makes the dynamic of the lights going out less special and important if they always start off by default every round, and it would just make for a generally unappealing game to the majority of the public.
<!--quoteo(post=1959577:date=Aug 9 2012, 05:04 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 9 2012, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We have thought long and hard about this. In theory it may sound like a good idea to clearly convey the concept of the power vs no powered areas by having the unpowered areas start out in darkness or emergency lighting, but it is just too problematic in practice. Players end up spending a large majority of their time in darkness, or in red lit rooms. For a single player horror themed game, maybe that is ok, but for a fast paced multiplayer FPS, it makes for a very frustrating experience. It is also very monotonous, and players will tire very quickly playing a game where they have to spend most of their time in completely red lit areas, and where everything looks and feels the same. It destroys the visuals of the maps and the hard work that has been put into them, it makes the dynamic of the lights going out less special and important if they always start off by default every round, and it would just make for a generally unappealing game to the majority of the public.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then please consider reverting back to all power sockets coming pre built.
This allows aliens to atleast be able to turn power off in their infestation ridden hive room.
The current lights on but no socket built is silly..and there is nothing aliens can do to turn them off until marines decide they want to build something. A hive with emergency lighting is a safer environment for the aliens than one that is totally lit.
There are two sides, one of whom is meant to ambush and be sneaky, poorer lighting help limit the ranged effectiveness of marines and might buy the alien 0.5 of a second longer.
<!--quoteo(post=1959577:date=Aug 9 2012, 04:04 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 9 2012, 04:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We have thought long and hard about this. In theory it may sound like a good idea to clearly convey the concept of the power vs no powered areas by having the unpowered areas start out in darkness or emergency lighting, but it is just too problematic in practice. Players end up spending a large majority of their time in darkness, or in red lit rooms. For a single player horror themed game, maybe that is ok, but for a fast paced multiplayer FPS, it makes for a very frustrating experience. It is also very monotonous, and players will tire very quickly playing a game where they have to spend most of their time in completely red lit areas, and where everything looks and feels the same. It destroys the visuals of the maps and the hard work that has been put into them, it makes the dynamic of the lights going out less special and important if they always start off by default every round, and it would just make for a generally unappealing game to the majority of the public.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Can we try it for one patch? Instead of in theory we can see what it does in practice! It wouldn't be hard to code and I'm sure it would be lots of fun for everyone to test...
Perhaps the emergency lighting could be tweaked a bit so its not to claustrophobic..
<!--quoteo(post=1959577:date=Aug 8 2012, 10:04 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 8 2012, 10:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->, it makes the dynamic of the lights going out less special and important if they always start off by default every round, and it would just make for a generally unappealing game to the majority of the public.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With all due respect, the dynamic of the lights being always on by defualt in the infestation is just as bad.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1959603:date=Aug 9 2012, 05:46 PM:name=Vaelkyri)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vaelkyri @ Aug 9 2012, 05:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With all due respect, the dynamic of the lights being always on by defualt in the infestation is just as bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats why infestation needs its own set of lights :) (not red)
<!--quoteo(post=1959605:date=Aug 9 2012, 02:50 AM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Aug 9 2012, 02:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->thats why infestation needs its own set of lights :) (not red)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even just dimmed lights would be better.
i think there should be a mechanic to disable lighting with infestation. maybe make it cost some res (2-5), so aliens won't disable lights in every room, and make it take some time (30 secs to 2 minutes / maybe gorge could speed it up).
<!--quoteo(post=1959227:date=Aug 8 2012, 07:28 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Aug 8 2012, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We just had a discussion about this and I think we're going to do a few things:
- Use the current marine-comm blue blue grid as a base for the effect, but change it to look more "electrical" and animated - Use this same effect as a base for marines on the ground and have it show periodically. Every 8 seconds or so your HUD would "shimmer" and show you what was powered in your view - Show a "powered" or "unpowered" lightning bolt on a ghost structure when you're placing it (depending if there's power or not there) - When a room is unpowered, it would also show this effect but it would be red and less "electrical"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Besides your second point this sounds like great changes. But for the marine on the ground it will probably be to distracting and less immerse. The marine on the ground don't need to know if this m² is powered or not. He can already tell from the lights if the room is powered.
<!--quoteo(post=1959577:date=Aug 9 2012, 08:04 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 9 2012, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...] In theory it may sound like a good idea to clearly convey the concept of the power vs no powered areas by having the unpowered areas start out in darkness or emergency lighting, but it is just too problematic in practice. [...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I absolutely agree to this. But I think some ideas in this thread would go in without hitting the points you wrote:<ul><li>Infestation slowly destroys un-socketed power nodes -> emergency light in alien territory.</li><li>Cysts, harvesters, hives should all have an own lighting source.</li><li>Rooms with un-socketed power should be not so bright and have flickering light.</li></ul>
I still say, like my earlier response, let the mapper decide what the unpowered state looks like. When the power node is activated, the room will then actually come alive. At least then the map will fit within the creator's vision. (yes, infestation would still bring down a room)
If functional lighting does not make sense with the current power node model then... it's broken.. and by that I mean it breaks the immersion factor.
Listen, I'd expect this behavior out of the HL engine, but we have come this far with the fantastic Spark engine.. it is worth a shot for it to make sense.
<!--quoteo(post=1959577:date=Aug 9 2012, 06:04 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 9 2012, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We have thought long and hard about this. In theory it may sound like a good idea to clearly convey the concept of the power vs no powered areas by having the unpowered areas start out in darkness or emergency lighting, but it is just too problematic in practice. Players end up spending a large majority of their time in darkness, or in red lit rooms. For a single player horror themed game, maybe that is ok, but for a fast paced multiplayer FPS, it makes for a very frustrating experience. It is also very monotonous, and players will tire very quickly playing a game where they have to spend most of their time in completely red lit areas, and where everything looks and feels the same. It destroys the visuals of the maps and the hard work that has been put into them, it makes the dynamic of the lights going out less special and important if they always start off by default every round, and it would just make for a generally unappealing game to the majority of the public.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with all of this, but that's exactly how maps look late game when aliens are winning, red and monotonous. I think it's a general problem with red lights, it would probably be better to have a more subtle effect like -30% brightness and -10% saturation or even some subtle redshift.
<!--quoteo(post=1958961:date=Aug 7 2012, 10:24 PM:name=CobraCommander)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CobraCommander @ Aug 7 2012, 10:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I kinda want the starting hive to be dark alarm redish so the marines have a harder time finding upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
I dont know why marines got those advantages on alien territory. Maybe aliens are just retarded and dont know that hummies need a light to see :>.
Make Cysts, Harvesters and Hives glowing stronger. Add diffuse lighting to the infestation so you got an orange green lighting in a room with infestation. Than you can make the infestation slowly kill un-sockeded powernodes.
Comments
My counter to this is two-fold.
First, with maps like Summit and Tram, random spawns remove this issue. Every room, in one game or another, will end up powered when the marines spawn nearby. The one room on Summit that is never a marine start or nearby is crossroads, and that room gets powered every other game because its an important tech point.
Second, while changing the power system could void some extra detail work on some rooms in maps without full random starts (Mineshaft and Docking, for instance), the current power system removes much of what we get out of the dynamic lighting from every map. Its actually quite rare, in my experience at least, that the blackout occurs when marines are actually there to see it, aside from their start point. But as a marine, that's one of my most enjoyed parts. Lights go out, everyone turns on their flashlights, and the shadows themselves start to play tricks on me. I've seen never seen summit reception's lights go out. I've never seen lights out in the room between sub and ventilation. I've seen glass hallway unlit once due to a failed phase gate attempt. I hate to say it, but those rooms might as well have static lighting.
An idea I've wanted to see for a while, as mentioned by Zek above, is infestation shorting out unbuilt/destroyed power nodes. Even aside from the advantage of the aliens, or the thrill of a marine, have you seen a hive built in a room experiencing blackout? It looks <i>beautiful</i>.
I still don't see what the powergrid system brings to the table at the moment, but most of those changes make sense. I'm not so sure about the one quoted above though. In terms of aesthetics, I think the game would be better served by keeping the dark alien-esque theme rather than add bright shimmering effects and saturated colors reminiscent of Star Trek.
Edit: Poor choice of words.
I would like to see something like this, where aliens could somehow bit down a powernode socket covered in infestation or maybe have the alien comm grow something over it to turn out the lights. This would also add something the alien comm could do. Whatever, I would like to see alien given the ability to cut the lights in rooms with hives
Sounds like it, If you guys are worried abnout offending your artists, then sorry- but gameplay > art.
<b>having the infestation be brightly lit makes zero sense and conveys a distict advantage on marines in the place they should be the weakest.</b>
The innate speed advantage of Aliens counters this beautifully imo.
One of the nice asymmetries in NS1 was the flexibility and quick growth of the Marines versus the cautious territory holding, but faster response/invade times of Aliens. This was mainly due to the res model. Aliens could only afford as many RTs as they could protect since they were more precious than Marine RTs. This has somewhat transferred over into NS2 due to the slower expansion of Infestation.
I personall advocate the partial lighting at start, bright lighting w/ power node, and emergency w/o powernode. As it is emergency lights are pretty powerful deterrant and disadvantage to the Marines. Switching tint like suggested previously would also be pretty interesting.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An idea I've wanted to see for a while, as mentioned by Zek above, is infestation shorting out unbuilt/destroyed power nodes. Even aside from the advantage of the aliens, or the thrill of a marine, have you seen a hive built in a room experiencing blackout? It looks beautiful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd be for that.
The developer mentioned they aren't adding Horror elements to the game. The unknown coming from the darkness is a horror element, which is why they don't want to add complete darkness, but only red lights dance club :)
<!--quoteo(post=1958895:date=Aug 8 2012, 04:59 AM:name=Insurance Salesman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insurance Salesman @ Aug 8 2012, 04:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That said, I think it would be cool if the lights flickered sporadically or had a dimmer tone to them until the power was turned on, to make marine-controlled areas more distinct from "neutral" land and add to the feeling of reclaiming the building you are fighting in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never thought about that befor but i really like the idea
Haha yeah, I understand not wanting to add horror elements. They seem to be going for a competitive game that has longevity rather than a bunch of stuff that will wow you at first and then get old and I get that. I just want them to have enough cool, distinctive stuff to pull new players in. NS2 does pretty well in that category.
Aliens have a CLEAR advantage in the dark - thermal vision vs a dinky flashlight.
Neutral rooms controlled by neither team should be NEUTRAL on a gameplay level. This means both teams need to be able to see. 'nuff said.
Aliens have a CLEAR advantage in the dark - thermal vision vs a dinky flashlight.
Neutral rooms controlled by neither team should be NEUTRAL on a gameplay level. This means both teams need to be able to see. 'nuff said.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If all decisions were made like this you would have a completely symmetrical game. What you gotta think like instead is since the aliens get that advantage, give the marines a different advantage to counter it.
Built node = lights full on
unbuilt node = emergency lighting
"infested" node = lights off/phase in and out/very dim?
Built node = lights full on
unbuilt node = emergency lighting
"infested" node = lights off/phase in and out/very dim?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
infested mode = green glow from infestation, and orange glow from cysts and other kharaa buildings = win. :)
it would really give the impression that the kharaa are creating their own habitat - like an alien rainforest type thing.
Anyone feel like modding this as a proof on concept? seems like it could be easy since a lot of system are already in place. (not that i know what i'm talking about...)
No, not this time. The teams are asymmetrical in plenty of ways - movement styles, attack styles, etc. On the other hand, every single player (aside from some awesome blind people I've seen) needs to be able to see in order to play a video game, especially first person shooters. Dying to stuff you can't see is not fun, and would be a horrible turn-off to first-time players.
In Starcraft, on neutral ground, the only advantages one unit has over another is inherent to their design - ranged vs melee, damage type vs armor type, HP vs res cost, blah blah. The terrain, however, is neutral. One player is not blind to the other's units by default.
Can that be changed over time by the players, or with different units? Yes, you can research cloak, or some specialty units come cloaked. However, it's never right away at the start of the map - it always requires player input to earn those situations.
Again - players gaining control over part of a map is what should produce an advantage for them in that area.
There are times where you take advantage of the map to earn the upper hand - use high ground in SC, or set up an ambush clinging to the ceiling/vents/whatever in NS2. That's enough for default.
Simple but effective...
The current red lighting is still bright enough for a marine to reasonable vision (a lot of places its not easy picking marines out unless you use alien vision in red lighting).
Marines get normal lighting when they build a power node and current state of affairs loops.
Infestation destroying power nodes (built & unbuilt) also makes sense on a lot of levels, this then opens up the suggested lighting from cysts (or the infestation itself glows) which could provide a different lighting scheme (ie green instead of red) or level (perhaps 10% darker).
These seem really simple change that are not bringing anything into the game thats not already there, these could bring a really nice visual indicator to map control through the lighting system.
Shame if something like this is overlooked.
In Starcraft, on neutral ground, the only advantages one unit has over another is inherent to their design - ranged vs melee, damage type vs armor type, HP vs res cost, blah blah. The terrain, however, is neutral. One player is not blind to the other's units by default.
Can that be changed over time by the players, or with different units? Yes, you can research cloak, or some specialty units come cloaked. However, it's never right away at the start of the map - it always requires player input to earn those situations.
Again - players gaining control over part of a map is what should produce an advantage for them in that area.
There are times where you take advantage of the map to earn the upper hand - use high ground in SC, or set up an ambush clinging to the ceiling/vents/whatever in NS2. That's enough for default.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well of course if you can't see anything that's no good. There is a flashlight for marines, which I think creates a really cool dynamic as you have to search around for aliens on the ceilings and stuff. I'm not saying it's necessarily a good idea for gameplay, just pointing out I think the "it's not balanced" argument doesn't make sense here as you can always think of something else to counter/negate it, or just give marines a similarly balanced advantage that works in favor of the atmosphere of the game. You could have marines throw in or set up light sources like flares or something that light up the room while you set up power. Or whatever, that's just right off the top of my head. I'm sure with some brainstorming it could be done.
--Cory
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then please consider reverting back to all power sockets coming pre built.
This allows aliens to atleast be able to turn power off in their infestation ridden hive room.
The current lights on but no socket built is silly..and there is nothing aliens can do to turn them off until marines decide they want to build something.
A hive with emergency lighting is a safer environment for the aliens than one that is totally lit.
There are two sides, one of whom is meant to ambush and be sneaky, poorer lighting help limit the ranged effectiveness of marines and might buy the alien 0.5 of a second longer.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can we try it for one patch? Instead of in theory we can see what it does in practice! It wouldn't be hard to code and I'm sure it would be lots of fun for everyone to test...
Perhaps the emergency lighting could be tweaked a bit so its not to claustrophobic..
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With all due respect, the dynamic of the lights being always on by defualt in the infestation is just as bad.
thats why infestation needs its own set of lights :) (not red)
Even just dimmed lights would be better.
- Use the current marine-comm blue blue grid as a base for the effect, but change it to look more "electrical" and animated
- Use this same effect as a base for marines on the ground and have it show periodically. Every 8 seconds or so your HUD would "shimmer" and show you what was powered in your view
- Show a "powered" or "unpowered" lightning bolt on a ghost structure when you're placing it (depending if there's power or not there)
- When a room is unpowered, it would also show this effect but it would be red and less "electrical"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Besides your second point this sounds like great changes. But for the marine on the ground it will probably be to distracting and less immerse. The marine on the ground don't need to know if this m² is powered or not. He can already tell from the lights if the room is powered.
<!--quoteo(post=1959577:date=Aug 9 2012, 08:04 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 9 2012, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...] In theory it may sound like a good idea to clearly convey the concept of the power vs no powered areas by having the unpowered areas start out in darkness or emergency lighting, but it is just too problematic in practice. [...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I absolutely agree to this. But I think some ideas in this thread would go in without hitting the points you wrote:<ul><li>Infestation slowly destroys un-socketed power nodes -> emergency light in alien territory.</li><li>Cysts, harvesters, hives should all have an own lighting source.</li><li>Rooms with un-socketed power should be not so bright and have flickering light.</li></ul>
If functional lighting does not make sense with the current power node model then... it's broken.. and by that I mean it breaks the immersion factor.
Listen, I'd expect this behavior out of the HL engine, but we have come this far with the fantastic Spark engine.. it is worth a shot for it to make sense.
I agree with all of this, but that's exactly how maps look late game when aliens are winning, red and monotonous. I think it's a general problem with red lights, it would probably be better to have a more subtle effect like -30% brightness and -10% saturation or even some subtle redshift.
This.
I dont know why marines got those advantages on alien territory. Maybe aliens are just retarded and dont know that hummies need a light to see :>.
glowing cysts O_O -> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=115242&hl=\" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....2&hl=\</a>