Armory healing armor
weezl
Join Date: 2008-07-04 Member: 64557Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2008-07-04 Member: 64557Members, Reinforced - Shadow
When you removed armor repair from armories in b215, it was one of the few things lately that gave me hope in NS2.
This promoted teamwork, and was a big incentive to carry a welder, being altruistic paying those 5PR almost every spawn. Providing a helping hand to your teammates and being grateful when they help you out. This is what NS is about! This camaraderie goes in line with your company motto even! "To unite the world through play." I believe it was...
If you just wanted to try it out, then I feel it was unjustly judged <b><u>because of a bug</u></b>!
The bug is, that the weld indicator wrench only updates ONCE; only the first time you see the target. After that marine has moved the wrench icon stays floating in that first spot you spotted him.
<b>This way all the new players didn't get a proper hint as to what to do.</b>
Just read the changelog about he energy thingie. It is trying something new, yes, and I get the logic behind it. But it will only limit armor repair in VERY FEW situations, so 99% it will be just like before b215. The only times the limitation will come play is big attacks on a marine base and marine last-stands (and maybe some situations with forward armories).
I firmly believe auto armor healing should be removed, there's no tradeoff!
On the other hand, you were gonna add in automatic MAC armor welding (should be toggle-able or more preferably marine-activated)! This is perfect, it's up to the com to provide a MAC, which needs a robo, costs res and can easily be killed by aliens - that's tradeoffs!
You have listened to me (atleast I'd like to believe you have :) in these threads:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118025" target="_blank">eureka!? think I know why aliens are so "imba"</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118678" target="_blank">alien lifeform energy use is overlooked!</a>
Thank you for listening UWE!
This promoted teamwork, and was a big incentive to carry a welder, being altruistic paying those 5PR almost every spawn. Providing a helping hand to your teammates and being grateful when they help you out. This is what NS is about! This camaraderie goes in line with your company motto even! "To unite the world through play." I believe it was...
If you just wanted to try it out, then I feel it was unjustly judged <b><u>because of a bug</u></b>!
The bug is, that the weld indicator wrench only updates ONCE; only the first time you see the target. After that marine has moved the wrench icon stays floating in that first spot you spotted him.
<b>This way all the new players didn't get a proper hint as to what to do.</b>
Just read the changelog about he energy thingie. It is trying something new, yes, and I get the logic behind it. But it will only limit armor repair in VERY FEW situations, so 99% it will be just like before b215. The only times the limitation will come play is big attacks on a marine base and marine last-stands (and maybe some situations with forward armories).
I firmly believe auto armor healing should be removed, there's no tradeoff!
On the other hand, you were gonna add in automatic MAC armor welding (should be toggle-able or more preferably marine-activated)! This is perfect, it's up to the com to provide a MAC, which needs a robo, costs res and can easily be killed by aliens - that's tradeoffs!
You have listened to me (atleast I'd like to believe you have :) in these threads:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118025" target="_blank">eureka!? think I know why aliens are so "imba"</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118678" target="_blank">alien lifeform energy use is overlooked!</a>
Thank you for listening UWE!
Comments
It's a good change, but it's not a good time to implement it. until marines stand a chance vs aliens when both teams are of equal skill, THEN we start thinking about armory changes.
ALSO,
OOP read the other post, disregard this.
Edit: I just read the changelog about the armory change and maybe it's not that bad after all. I'll have to play around with it before deciding. As long as it doesn't make a forward armory too strong then I am actually alright with armories healing armor.
Just because something was in NS1, doesn't mean it has to be in NS2.
Now you can have a mobile armory "Mac" follow your team around the map and keep them welded up.
Hmmm, MAC = Mobile Armor Curative
Just because something was in NS1, doesn't mean it has to be in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spot on. It's not very fun at all to ask random team members to weld you up. Teamwork is one thing, but I don't want to act like a junkie looking for a fix just to get my armor back. It was part of the reason Aliens had such dominance pre patch(the other reason being Aliens are simply overpowered - albeit less so now), you would find yourself without armor half the time or more.
I'd love to have more coordination and team oriented gameplay, but not like that.
This is a load of rubbish. The imbalances favoring aliens have nothing to do with marine armor and everything to do with the alien upgrades (carapace and regen notably), the alien 2-hive abilities (leap and blink) and the poor client/server performance.. UWE actually did a lot of good work fixing the first two of those problems in this build and more (notably carapace) will be fixed in b217.
I've said this before and I'll say it again:
Either you balance the game for;
1. Marines having full armor all the time, in which case armor should be a permanent modifier, not something you lose when you take damage.
or you balance the game for;
2. Marines only having full armor some of the time, in which case options for regenerating your armor should be very limited.
NS1 was balanced around the second option and, so far, so has NS2. The people who want armories to heal armor should instead be arguing for armor being a permanent modifier, if they wanted their arguments to make any logical sense.
It was a good change and people were actually adapting fast. 3 out of 4 marines had welders and it started to remind me of the NS1 teamwork days of making sure people were welded and topped off. More people communicated via mic for help and there was little to no running back to resupply This change only reinforces bad habits new players can develop.
It would be nice to get a reason why this change happened.
Not to sound like a Justin Bieber loving high school girl, but this is the second time Fana has recommended two great ideas in regards to armor. No one likes the chore of healing armor and by your changes you want it easy for them to do, so why not just make it a flat defensive bonus? You could even make the marine look beefier with each armor upgrade or blame nanite shields.
Though i would be for the other change and make armor, oh wait - i have to be like my idol... armour matter by not giving so many options to get it back. The Mac change is acceptable since it doesnt encourage bad habits and might even add a new dimension to the comm/squad relationship i.e. "Oh we have a mac with us, the comm has his eye on us. *warm fussies*" and would give the comm more micro, though this would allow the comm to heal or give health, armor, and ammo (not to mention drop any equipment wherever on the map with no restrictions) so the ability to place nano shield on players could be removed.
But really... this is brilliant. Why not change to one and stop with all the half changes and back and forth?
Or should I say, was a fantastic part.
I've said this before and I'll say it again:
Either you balance the game for;
1. Marines having full armor all the time, in which case armor should be a permanent modifier, not something you lose when you take damage.
or you balance the game for;
2. Marines only having full armor some of the time, in which case options for regenerating your armor should be very limited.
NS1 was balanced around the second option and, so far, so has NS2. The people who want armories to heal armor should instead be arguing for armor being a permanent modifier, if they wanted their arguments to make any logical sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will definitely agree with you that an actual modifier would be better, however your idea that my argument isn't "logical" is pulled straight out of your ass. A full armor marine takes a lot more skulk bites to take down than a pure hp, unwelded marine - this is obvious, so stating that it had nothing to do with the 215 imbalance is just absurd. Removing armor from the armories also did <b>nothing</b> to stop armory humping, it just made it less powerful. You will always see marines humping armories and placing them in strategic locations for pushes, just like a crag would be used offensively and that's how it should be.
The problem is that removing the armor regen from the armories had 2 very strong effects. 1) It nerfed armory pushes, like I said. You could not fall back and regen to full at the armory. I think the energy to armory is a nice change at keeping those armory pushes in line, although it may still need some tweaking. And 2) Its a very unfun change. Sure its a clear line when it comes to competitive play, but you have to remember that the public games are just as, if not more important than that. Running around welding people is not something a public player would immediately think of doing. Its also a very unfun thing to be doing. I think welding an exo is fun, so I hope they dont get armor from armories, but welding all your light armored buddies, rather than keeping a gun on the door or bullets flying is about the least fun thing I can think of. Good riddance to that.
edit: It should also be mentioned that this also increased the "chore" that playing marines was starting to be. It still has that feel, when compare to aliens, but its much less obvious when you can top yourself up like they can, without wasting comm time.
The problem is that removing the armor regen from the armories had 2 very strong effects. 1) It nerfed armory pushes, like I said. You could not fall back and regen to full at the armory. I think the energy to armory is a nice change at keeping those armory pushes in line, although it may still need some tweaking. And 2) Its a very unfun change. Sure its a clear line when it comes to competitive play, but you have to remember that the public games are just as, if not more important than that. Running around welding people is not something a public player would immediately think of doing. Its also a very unfun thing to be doing. I think welding an exo is fun, so I hope they dont get armor from armories, but welding all your light armored buddies, rather than keeping a gun on the door or bullets flying is about the least fun thing I can think of. Good riddance to that.
edit: It should also be mentioned that this also increased the "chore" that playing marines was starting to be. It still has that feel, when compare to aliens, but its much less obvious when you can top yourself up like they can, without wasting comm time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Modifier does seem like a decent alternative. I'm not against that, merely the act of welding itself. Maybe if they actively made it easier to tell who needs welding....but even then it sounds tedious. Though, I would have liked to see how this could have played out with a carapace and regeneration nerf. Might have made the aspect of welding not so bad, when your enemy isn't a bullet sponge and completely outclassing you.
As for the exosuit...sure, why not. Welding an exosuit makes a lot more sense than welding armor. Good way of encouraging a convoy with an exosuit leading the charge, and light marines as support. Not that annoying, considering how much less often it would happen.
I think you're misinterpretting balance.
When we talk about "balance" we mean "in a given state, what is reasonable to have an advantage or disadvantage."
If we balance around Marines always having full armor, then our baseline fighting model would be around a Skulk and a Marine w/ full armor fighting with similar skill levels. If we balance the other way, then a Marine with full armor has a slight advantage compared to the baseline. So a Skulk will more often lose or have to rely on previous damage (parasite, gas, getting an ambush, cloaking to get in close).
Clasically in NS1 it was balanced around a Marine with no extra Armor, and the armor was aboon that helped the Marine handle the Skulk's ability to ambush. So pro players to maximize their chances would carry around a welder in a squad, but a rehealed Marine with no Armor could face-off with reasonable chances against an upgraded Skulk.
When we talk about "balance" we mean "in a given state, what is reasonable to have an advantage or disadvantage."
If we balance around Marines always having full armor, then our baseline fighting model would be around a Skulk and a Marine w/ full armor fighting with similar skill levels. If we balance the other way, then a Marine with full armor has a slight advantage compared to the baseline. So a Skulk will more often lose or have to rely on previous damage (parasite, gas, getting an ambush, cloaking to get in close).
Clasically in NS1 it was balanced around a Marine with no extra Armor, and the armor was aboon that helped the Marine handle the Skulk's ability to ambush. So pro players to maximize their chances would carry around a welder in a squad, but a rehealed Marine with no Armor could face-off with reasonable chances against an upgraded Skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If having the leisure of being able to repair armor on a consistent basis means Skulks becoming even more of a bullet sponge, I'd rather go back to the old method of getting armor back(with better visual cues and perhaps audio). Like I said above, I wouldn't have minded the old way of repairing with a carapace and regeneration nerf...probably. It could have made the entire ordeal bearable. Something about needing that many bullets to kill a Skulk makes an an otherwise smooth gameplay experience grind to a halt. Like others hsve said, it promotes lazy Skulk play, which I've said myself in the past. Game should be balanced around Skulks needing an ambush for the advantage(or SOME degree of stealth and skill), not charging straight in to a group of marines/getting a kill and scampering off.
I dont agree with this, in NS1 a marine with no armour needed 2 bites to kill. Two bites was a ridiculously easy number to get if you have the drop on the marine, as you cant hop on the knockback until the second bite hits.
The only chance a marine had with no armour was to be in a situation where the skulk does not get the drop from behind.
If a marine has armour, then it takes atleast 3 hits (with armour 0 and no parasite), then you have the chance to recover from being dropped on by a skulk, as you can jump on the knockback and get distance and proceed to do the usual funky footwork. This is another reason why parasiting is so important in competitive (aside from the obvious advantage of being able to see your opponent) as well as why welding is so important and was often given to give you this time to react.
NS1 was definitely balanced with armour in mind.
It may just be me, but I felt incredibly vulnerable in NS1 having no armour (as it should be). I play competitive only however.
The only situation i feel the need for something like this, is when i'm the only marine welding people, but that doesn't happen very often.
The mechanic of 215 encouraged communication and teamplay, and players learn the mechanics of the game rather fast, i think.
I also feel, that the current implementation might look like a good compromise for people who are for and against armory-healing, but it's really hard to know for players how much the armory is currently healing/repairing. I just remember my last game when I was confused on why the armory was healing me sometimes and sometimes not.
Or how about giving Marines welders from the start, without needing to buy them with your personal res. Make it a default starting item. It still promotes teamwork and makes welding less of a chore/personal sacrifice. You won't end up as broke later on in the game...if you happen to die and lose your jetpack/weapon. New players will also have less of an excuse not to actively weld. It's something I've suggested in a different post.
So, how about it? I think this would solve the turtling issue that seems to be happening with Marines going constantly back to their armories/and sticking around for the benefits against an attack. May also encourage more aggressive Marine play.
The only chance a marine had with no armour was to be in a situation where the skulk does not get the drop from behind.
If a marine has armour, then it takes atleast 3 hits (with armour 0 and no parasite), then you have the chance to recover from being dropped on by a skulk, as you can jump on the knockback and get distance and proceed to do the usual funky footwork. This is another reason why parasiting is so important in competitive (aside from the obvious advantage of being able to see your opponent) as well as why welding is so important and was often given to give you this time to react.
NS1 was definitely balanced with armour in mind.
It may just be me, but I felt incredibly vulnerable in NS1 having no armour (as it should be). I play competitive only however.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, but competitive Skulks were exceptionally competent at getting the drop on you, and why a welder was sent to the pressure team.
But Parasite+2 bites was still a kill until upgrades arrived.
So yes, in the initial fight Marines could hold their ground and typically come out on top with a squadmate and Armor. But without Armor, you were at a disadvantage for the next fight. Which seems reasonably balanced imo. It took two fights (or some other advantage) to take down a Marine. Which to me felt perfectly balanced. Since in competitive games you really, really wanted your pressure team to stay alive and, well, pressure the Aliens, a welder was manadtory so they could reasoanbly survive 3-4 engagements. Also, the early shotgun helped.
We could try to define what the "Baseline" really means, but at this point I think we're on the same page and further arguments aren't really helpful. We're just defining things slightly differently.
This is rubbish and completely beside the point. If a skulk gets the drop on a marine, the skulk always has the advantage, regardless of it being two bites or three. That's the entire point of ambushing.
The skulks have methods to force/lure marines into ambush situations, whereas the marines have other methods to deny said ambush situations and force the skulks into unfavorable situations, such as having to rush across the room to get within melee distance of the marine. The by-the-numbers-balanced gameplay lies somewhere in between those two scenarios, where, in fact, a marine with 0 armor was equal to a skulk in NS1.
This obsession some NS2 players have with full armor is fairly amusing to me, having played the predecessor where aliens had an upgrade that let them kill un-armored marines in one hit. Even then, it was never a problem that the welder was the only option for getting your armor back, nor did people run around yawning because they had to weld all the time (here's a hint why; they weren't welding all the time).
That being said I think MACs should be able to weld armor regardless.
The skulks have methods to force/lure marines into ambush situations, whereas the marines have other methods to deny said ambush situations and force the skulks into unfavorable situations, such as having to rush across the room to get within melee distance of the marine. The by-the-numbers-balanced gameplay lies somewhere in between those two scenarios, where, in fact, a marine with 0 armor was equal to a skulk in NS1.
This obsession some NS2 players have with full armor is fairly amusing to me, having played the predecessor where aliens had an upgrade that let them kill un-armored marines in one hit. Even then, it was never a problem that the welder was the only option for getting your armor back, nor did people run around yawning because they had to weld all the time (here's a hint why; they weren't welding all the time).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can someone make a giant banner that says "NS2 IS NOT NS1" and put it at the top of the forums?
Thanks!
Thanks!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can someone make a giant banner that says "NS2 IS NOT CALL OF HALO" and put it at the top of the forums?
Thanks!
Thanks!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not necessary.
I try to bring up NS1 for context and to help give contrast to how mechanics worked in a very similar game. This lets us see how the changes in NS2 affect gameplay, and help give hindsight that certain gameplay elements have worked before. This hindsight means that if the same mechanic isn't working in NS2, it isn't because the mechanic itself is bad, something else in the supporting structure changed as well. So instead of just "throw out mechanic X" we should ask "what else is different that is making mechanic X not work" and look at the problem as a whole.
Lastly, NS1 had time to stabilize. Many people have comaplined about mechanics in NS2 simply because they don't understand them yet. The call of "it worked in NS1" usually is a call for people to try it out and try getting used to it before passing judgement. Perfect example, people not knowing about Lerk glide and complaining that Lerks use too much energy to fly now.
I see a lot of posts saying "well it was this way in NS1 so..." which is just not a good discussion. NS2 is not supposed to be NS1 with new graphics. You can try to draw parallels but the fact is that NS2 is a very different game. The maps are different, the distance closers are different, the hit registration is different, the team structure is different, the resource model is different, the structure model is different - hell the only thing they have in common are the names.
And I agree, I hope NS2 has as little as possible in common with the mainstream brainless shooters out there (call of _____) - I really dont think this is one of those things.
I see a lot of posts saying "well it was this way in NS1 so..." which is just not a good discussion. NS2 is not supposed to be NS1 with new graphics. You can try to draw parallels but the fact is that NS2 is a very different game. The maps are different, the distance closers are different, the hit registration is different, the team structure is different, the resource model is different, the structure model is different - hell the only thing they have in common are the names.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh, it's Fana. You get used to him. He's a great resource for NS1 design and balance, but sometimes can come off a little harsh.
And I agree. NS2 != NS1. But it's the closest comparison we have, so comparisons are inevitable. And since much of the gameplay elements are familiar it helps inform the design of NS2. There are a lot fo difference, but we can look at the differences in context of each game and draw some parallels. And when the parallels break down, we can investigate why instead of assuming one small part is to blame.
That being said, I still like armory armor healing over only welder armor healing. Much of NS2 is balanced around marines having full armor (i.e. 3 bite/2 bite+para for a0 marine, 3 swipes for a1, 4 swipes for a3, etc), such that requiring welders was a pretty big nerf to marines. I'm also in favor of requiring more hits (except in a few select cases) to get a kill because its more forgiving for new players and expands the skill ceiling.