Honestly, this feels like a big step backwards to me. Requiring welders to heal armor helped massively to promote teamwork by making marines responsible for keeping themselves and their teammates ready to fight, and it really did help cut down on the "armory humping" situations by tying a significant portion of health to an on-the-fly source rather than a static healing building.
If the devs really want to have armor healing, however, I'd probably suggest having it only for advanced armories so that marines are still encouraged to take welders in the early game/on the front lines.
It doesnt expand the skill ceiling at all, just makes camping armories more benifical...
Requiring welders doesnt nerf marines in the ways you are describing.. it simply eliminates certain situations where the armory healing was abusive. Camping an armory with 2 or 3 people and spaming grenades around makes you almost unkillable to anything but an onos, all the while the armory can keep you alive and close to full HP. It honestly LOWERS the skill ceiling as it makes getting hit by aliens less of an issue, especially if there is an armory nearby. You can tank those hits and as long as you can make the alien retreat, it doesnt matter if you had 1 HP left, because that armory can heal you to full far faster than the alien can be healed to full. It makes no sense for the melee classes that have to take risks to deal damage to heal much slower than the ranged class that can always engage without risk. All it leads to is more grindy play, where you need to gain considerable advantage to clear a position/room, which leads to the grindfest that occurs in so many games of NS2 currently. Aliens just run in and out and in and out and marines just get healed to full by armories while spamming shots around... its not fun tbh.
NS2 doesnt really need focus (well atleast double damage like NS1) just because it would allow for too much burst damage at times with mass lifeforms (maybe, my opinion of this is kinda changing). I do think that the fact that NS1 didnt have the armory repairing armor AND had focus makes any excuse for NS2 NOT to have it without substantial reasoning why its good pretty much invalid... and I have yet to see any reason that is even noteworthy...just people complaining because they cannot rambo as a marine, or its too tedious. With macs automatically welding marines I honestly think the armory not healing armor is a good change. All thats needed is better VGS options.
They implemented the energy idea kinda poorly, it's very negligible so armories are back to their 214 kinda OP state. They also made another mistake (one common in many attributes of this game) and that is that the energy does not scale with player count. So just like having welders be the only source of armor, this new armory energy will also be problematic because of this- you might never notice it on a 12 player server VS being very constricting on a 32 player server. I would like to have seen the armory energy be more harshly implemented and scale with player count so that realistically you would not be able to armory hump outside of a hive for very long at all. At the moment it's not much better than the welder solution.
Having welders be the only source of welding to me is the most inconsistent solution of all of them because it varies with not only player count but player skill as well. And I recall they wanted this sequel to be much more reliably scalable in terms of player count than the first game.
If they cannot competently balance the armories I would say (reluctantly) bring the welders-only solution back, but they would really need to put the infrastructure for them in the same patch ("weld me" emotes, probably welders needed to be base tech available at game start).
Permanent damage reduction from armor isn't a good idea because it will overpower medpacks.
Example: Now - Marine has armor 0, it takes 3 bites from a skulk to kill. In a fight where comm is spamming meds on a skulk, then it can still only take 3-4 bites for a skulk to kill that marine. And that skulk can bite 2x after wearing down the armor to finish off the marine.
With damage reduction armor - The comm can spam down meds on the marine and heal him through a single skulk's damage with ease because he's now wearing a mini nanoshield. In the case of armor 3, this would have to be effectively nanoshield on a armor0 marine to be similar to vanilla armor 3 marines.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
The armory camping issue is/was overblown imo. I never had any issue out-dpsing armory healing as an alien and the issues you specified (GL spamming) are either a) difficult to pull off without killing yourself and b) more a problem with mass weapon spam than armory armor healing.
Requiring welders was a pretty big nerf because it - Added another drain on already low marines PRes (which, of course, gets worse with more deaths/added newb penalty) - Significantly increased the amount of time marines spent in the 2 bite/2 swipe death territory (so less damage feedback/more new penalty)
I'm also believe that when the marine comm expends TRes (i.e. dropping an armory), that it should give any marines in the area an advantage over comparable aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1960676:date=Aug 10 2012, 01:28 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 10 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Permanent damage reduction from armor isn't a good idea because it will overpower medpacks.
Example: Now - Marine has armor 0, it takes 3 bites from a skulk to kill. In a fight where comm is spamming meds on a skulk, then it can still only take 3-4 bites for a skulk to kill that marine. And that skulk can bite 2x after wearing down the armor to finish off the marine.
With damage reduction armor - The comm can spam down meds on the marine and heal him through a single skulk's damage with ease because he's now wearing a mini nanoshield. In the case of armor 3, this would have to be effectively nanoshield on a armor0 marine to be similar to vanilla armor 3 marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is why I think the current medpack mechanic is problematic and flawed. Armor damage reduction upgrades are a common feature of both FPSs and RTSs. The fact that medpacks break it says to me that medpacks are the problem.
If you want it more like NS1 for marines. Give them some movement back? That's part of why NS1 marines without armor could actually kick some ass imo, good movement - more dodging.
Marine movement in NS2 has always felt pretty inferior to NS1 to me.
What is the current cooldown on medspam? I remember in NS1 it had no cooldown and I could allow a Marine to Solo a Fade as a comm. Cost a bunch of Res though.
<!--quoteo(post=1960689:date=Aug 10 2012, 05:10 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 10 2012, 05:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The armory camping issue is/was overblown imo. I never had any issue out-dpsing armory healing as an alien and the issues you specified (GL spamming) are either a) difficult to pull off without killing yourself and b) more a problem with mass weapon spam than armory armor healing.
Requiring welders was a pretty big nerf because it - Added another drain on already low marines PRes (which, of course, gets worse with more deaths/added newb penalty) - Significantly increased the amount of time marines spent in the 2 bite/2 swipe death territory (so less damage feedback/more new penalty)
I'm also believe that when the marine comm expends TRes (i.e. dropping an armory), that it should give any marines in the area an advantage over comparable aliens.
This is why I think the current medpack mechanic is problematic and flawed. Armor damage reduction upgrades are a common feature of both FPSs and RTSs. The fact that medpacks break it says to me that medpacks are the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the biggest plus of no armory armor heals is showing everyone that you cannot expect to solo the game (unless you're really good). this is precisely the kind of message we need to send to new players - you need to build up your teamwork skills, because it is a -team- game. it might have been a nerf to marines, sure, but honestly - let's be realistic here - it more than made up for that deficiency in introducing the concept of teamwork and staying together. the dev team has spent loads of time conjuring up gui and interface solutions to promote teamwork - squads, which are pretty much defunct (who ever uses squads in pubs? i don't think i've played in a single game in the past 30 builds where squads were assigned and players on the ground stuck with their squad), huge glowing waypoint things, briefly tried squad spawning, etc etc etc.
AND YET here is a solution so simple, so elegant in its simplicity that gives the game the EXACT quality that they spent so much time introducing these other mechanics to fix, yet they take it out. I'm really frustrated at this, because it's like they don't even know what the hell is going on in their game. Late game marine pushes could have been fixed in other ways than to introduce armory healing mechanics, and yet they took the easy out. WHY.
<!--quoteo(post=1960734:date=Aug 10 2012, 05:55 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 10 2012, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as in rambo. thanks for the nitpick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's your lead in statement, which your entire post is built around. It's hardly a nitpick as your entire point of your post is that it shows new players that they can't solo NS2, but nothing in the game has ever shown them that they can solo in NS2. It's a completely meaningless justification.
<!--quoteo(post=1960739:date=Aug 10 2012, 06:02 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 10 2012, 06:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's your lead in statement, which your entire post is built around. It's hardly a nitpick as your entire point of your post is that it shows new players that they can't solo NS2, but nothing in the game has ever shown them that they can solo in NS2. It's a completely meaningless justification.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
then why did pub marine teams seldom communicate before the armory change? why were people suddenly much more willing to move in groups and stay with each other? as they say, the proof is in the hot dog. your own argument seems to expect that a newbie is tabula rasa, with no prior experience with fps's, especially modern tdm/dm games. many of those games emphasize individual achievement over solid team play, and ns2 is pretty much in a class of its own. if a player comes to a game with no prior ns1 experience, don't you think they will default to their familiar fps habits? what i would also like to see is assist-credit added to the game, further incentivizing working together.
is there justification in making armories have 'heal energy'? i don't think so. it doesn't alleviate humping at all, especially with larger team sizes. in fact the addition of this mechanic hurts the credibility of the argument that armories should heal armor to support marine pushes - in a marine push, a forward armory is constantly "under load" which means that it heals slowly, perhaps even more slowly than before. therefore i can only conclude that there is no valid reason for the current implementation of armory healing.
I just played a few great marine games earlier and the entire team was communicating, people were welding each other (albeit not as much as the previous patch). I've only recently gotten into NS2 though however so I can't comment on anything before patch 215.
I see people solo all the time in NS2... Its people like that didnt like the armory change most initially... Camping armories is a huge issue tbh i have no clue why you cannot see it..... I personally would like to see you take out a decent shotgun next to an armory with anything but an onos 1v1...
The only way you kill yourself around an armory that heals armor with a GL is if your being completely retarded.. Its pretty easy to fire grenades near you that wont deal full damage, which the armory can heal quickly... Or with multiple marines, your just gling your teammates... real skillful there isnt it?
<!--quoteo(post=1960746:date=Aug 10 2012, 06:17 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 10 2012, 06:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960746"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->then why did pub marine teams seldom communicate before the armory change? why were people suddenly much more willing to move in groups and stay with each other? as they say, the proof is in the hot dog. your own argument seems to expect that a newbie is tabula rasa, with no prior experience with fps's, especially modern tdm/dm games. many of those games emphasize individual achievement over solid team play, and ns2 is pretty much in a class of its own. if a player comes to a game with no prior ns1 experience, don't you think they will default to their familiar fps habits? what i would also like to see is assist-credit added to the game, further incentivizing working together.
is there justification in making armories have 'heal energy'? i don't think so. it doesn't alleviate humping at all, especially with larger team sizes. in fact the addition of this mechanic hurts the credibility of the argument that armories should heal armor to support marine pushes - in a marine push, a forward armory is constantly "under load" which means that it heals slowly, perhaps even more slowly than before. therefore i can only conclude that there is no valid reason for the current implementation of armory healing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're placebo'ing yourself. Kind of like how hitreg always seems better to some people and worse to others after every single patch. The same way that performance fluxuates. "Teamwork" is another one of those anecdotal, subjective, onyxia-deep-breaths-more metrics.
If you are a brand new NS2 player then you will learn pretty quickly that you can't go off and do much by yourself. Only players who are far more experienced their opponents can do much by themselves. Either way the armory change goes, it's irrelevant to this. This phenomena is there regardless.
Healing armor slowly is exactly what armories should be doing. You want them to heal slowly because then welders are still useful. In an ideal situation, welders would have the benefit of healing armor quicker and/or away from an armory. Armories would be backups and would heal armor slowly if a welder was not available such that welders did not become obsolete by the presence of an armory. I don't think the b216 implementation is good, but neither was b215's implementation, nor build 214's. I also think that any of these situations can be properly balanced for, but I feel that the one I described above is the best option.
<!--quoteo(post=1960761:date=Aug 10 2012, 06:36 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 10 2012, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're placebo'ing yourself. Kind of like how hitreg always seems better to some people and worse to others after every single patch. The same way that performance fluxuates. "Teamwork" is another one of those anecdotal, subjective, onyxia-deep-breaths-more metrics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i've done my fraps benchmarks. i would dip into the teens with fps before 215, sometimes below 10 in heavy action. now i almost never go below 25. also, placebo effect is not a negligible thing. if you have a disease and placebo pills cure you, will you tell your doctor that it isn't really cured because after all it was only a placebo?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you are a brand new NS2 player then you will learn pretty quickly that you can't go off and do much by yourself. Only players who are far more experienced their opponents can do much by themselves. Either way the armory change goes, it's irrelevant to this. This phenomena is there regardless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> that won't stop them from trying, or suggest a solution.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Healing armor slowly is exactly what armories should be doing. You want them to heal slowly because then welders are still useful. In an ideal situation, welders would have the benefit of healing armor quicker and/or away from an armory. Armories would be backups and would heal armor slowly if a welder was not available such that welders did not become obsolete by the presence of an armory. I don't think the b216 implementation is good, but neither was b215's implementation, nor build 214's. I also think that any of these situations can be properly balanced for, but I feel that the one I described above is the best option.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> but what the beta process has shown us is that when we have welders and armories both healing armor, what ends up happening is people demand an armory (instead of a welder) at their location, and don't weld each other.
<!--quoteo(post=1960760:date=Aug 10 2012, 06:34 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 10 2012, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see people solo all the time in NS2... Its people like that didnt like the armory change most initially... Camping armories is a huge issue tbh i have no clue why you cannot see it..... I personally would like to see you take out a decent shotgun next to an armory with anything but an onos 1v1...
The only way you kill yourself around an armory that heals armor with a GL is if your being completely retarded.. Its pretty easy to fire grenades near you that wont deal full damage, which the armory can heal quickly... Or with multiple marines, your just gling your teammates... real skillful there isnt it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can win a 1v1 fight by killing the marine, then the fact that the armory is there is irrelevant. It's not like the marine is going to be hitting up the armory in between shotgun shots. The armory only helps the marine(s) if he beats the alien(s). The comm is paying that 10 tres and the marine is making himself vulnerable for a short period of time to garner and advantage in that area. This is not unlike a phasegate being built wins an advantage for marines.
The GL problems you're talking about are a problem with the GL and rather irrelevant to the armory situation. Multiple GLs spamming down hallways happened regardless of whether armories healed armor or not and is not fixed by either state of the armory mechanic.
Just going to quickly say this, it was from their twitter.
'Almost 1,000 games into NS2 Build 216 and the balance is the BEST YET. Marine/Alien wins are 49.6%/50.4%. YES. about 2 hours ago'
So the way I see it, and have being seeing it while playing, balance is fixed for now. No armour repair at armories would most definatly swing the balance in Alien favor so really thats one of the good changes of this build. So it should remain imo
The 50/50 pub winrates don't necessarily show the game is balanced and it absolutely doesn't solve the debate on a rather minor change like armor healing from armories.
It's a good sign that one side doesn't constantly stomp the other in pubs, but it can't be used to justify or invalidate small changes like this.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1960676:date=Aug 10 2012, 09:28 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 10 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Permanent damage reduction from armor isn't a good idea because it will overpower medpacks.
Example: Now - Marine has armor 0, it takes 3 bites from a skulk to kill. In a fight where comm is spamming meds on a skulk, then it can still only take 3-4 bites for a skulk to kill that marine. And that skulk can bite 2x after wearing down the armor to finish off the marine.
With damage reduction armor - The comm can spam down meds on the marine and heal him through a single skulk's damage with ease because he's now wearing a mini nanoshield. In the case of armor 3, this would have to be effectively nanoshield on a armor0 marine to be similar to vanilla armor 3 marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How is this even an argument? If you make a major change, which making armor permanent would be, you also need to change other parts of the game to accommodate. In this case, a simple medpack nerf would probably suffice; make each medpack heal say a third of what it does now. Armor levels would also have to be adjusted, even with the current armor mechanics, armor3 is borderline overpowered.
Bear in mind I don't actually want armor to be permanent, but I would rather see that than the current armory humpapalooza, and I would certainly like to see a little consistency in the arguments made from certain people.
Maybe add Armor healing as an upgrade? The armory should also heal armor really slow, this way I can still keep my Wielder handy. Right now most Marines run back to the armory to heal and they never listen to me when I tell them to stay still, hahahaha.
<!--quoteo(post=1960768:date=Aug 10 2012, 04:45 PM:name=ellnic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ellnic @ Aug 10 2012, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960768"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just going to quickly say this, it was from their twitter.
'Almost 1,000 games into NS2 Build 216 and the balance is the BEST YET. Marine/Alien wins are 49.6%/50.4%. YES. about 2 hours ago'
So the way I see it, and have being seeing it while playing, balance is fixed for now. No armour repair at armories would most definatly swing the balance in Alien favor so really thats one of the good changes of this build. So it should remain imo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While yes, those balance statistics are good and a step in the right direction you still need to consider thats OVERALL and pubs. Those stats don't show HOW marines are getting their wins. Perhaps 70% of their wins comes from the early game where as if the game drags on the aliens suddenly get hive 2 and go on a rampage. It's a good stat but not something to get TOO excited about.
<!--quoteo(post=1960779:date=Aug 10 2012, 07:14 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 10 2012, 07:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is this even an argument? If you make a major change, which making armor permanent would be, you also need to change other parts of the game to accommodate. In this case, a simple medpack nerf would probably suffice; make each medpack heal say a third of what it does now. Armor levels would also have to be adjusted, even with the current armor mechanics, armor3 is borderline overpowered.
Bear in mind I don't actually want armor to be permanent, but I would rather see that than the current armory humpapalooza, and I would certainly like to see a little consistency in the arguments made from certain people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's an argument for not making armor only a damage reduction.
In your initial post, you present a pretty obvious false choice: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Either you balance the game for;
1. Marines having full armor all the time, in which case armor should be a permanent modifier, not something you lose when you take damage.
or you balance the game for;
2. Marines only having full armor some of the time, in which case options for regenerating your armor should be very limited.
NS1 was balanced around the second option and, so far, so has NS2. The people who want armories to heal armor should instead be arguing for armor being a permanent modifier, if they wanted their arguments to make any logical sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're claiming the choice is between armories not healing armor and armor being a permanent modifier. This blatantly eliminates the variation that I'm supporting, which is solidly in your #2 category. Contrary to your statement, if I support armories healing armor, I do not have to be arguing for a permanent modifier. Your post is lacking the "logical sense."
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
The argument for armories healing armor, has been based on your claim that welding is tedious. Running back to an armory to get armor is equally tedious, however.
The logical conclusion to the argument that tedium should be removed from the game is therefore to make armor permanent, not to make armories heal armor.
Comments
If you're going to limit upgrades 1 tech upgrade from each hive, then I want focus back.
Enough hand holding for marines.
If the devs really want to have armor healing, however, I'd probably suggest having it only for advanced armories so that marines are still encouraged to take welders in the early game/on the front lines.
Requiring welders doesnt nerf marines in the ways you are describing.. it simply eliminates certain situations where the armory healing was abusive. Camping an armory with 2 or 3 people and spaming grenades around makes you almost unkillable to anything but an onos, all the while the armory can keep you alive and close to full HP. It honestly LOWERS the skill ceiling as it makes getting hit by aliens less of an issue, especially if there is an armory nearby. You can tank those hits and as long as you can make the alien retreat, it doesnt matter if you had 1 HP left, because that armory can heal you to full far faster than the alien can be healed to full. It makes no sense for the melee classes that have to take risks to deal damage to heal much slower than the ranged class that can always engage without risk. All it leads to is more grindy play, where you need to gain considerable advantage to clear a position/room, which leads to the grindfest that occurs in so many games of NS2 currently. Aliens just run in and out and in and out and marines just get healed to full by armories while spamming shots around... its not fun tbh.
NS2 doesnt really need focus (well atleast double damage like NS1) just because it would allow for too much burst damage at times with mass lifeforms (maybe, my opinion of this is kinda changing). I do think that the fact that NS1 didnt have the armory repairing armor AND had focus makes any excuse for NS2 NOT to have it without substantial reasoning why its good pretty much invalid... and I have yet to see any reason that is even noteworthy...just people complaining because they cannot rambo as a marine, or its too tedious. With macs automatically welding marines I honestly think the armory not healing armor is a good change. All thats needed is better VGS options.
Having welders be the only source of welding to me is the most inconsistent solution of all of them because it varies with not only player count but player skill as well. And I recall they wanted this sequel to be much more reliably scalable in terms of player count than the first game.
If they cannot competently balance the armories I would say (reluctantly) bring the welders-only solution back, but they would really need to put the infrastructure for them in the same patch ("weld me" emotes, probably welders needed to be base tech available at game start).
Example:
Now - Marine has armor 0, it takes 3 bites from a skulk to kill. In a fight where comm is spamming meds on a skulk, then it can still only take 3-4 bites for a skulk to kill that marine. And that skulk can bite 2x after wearing down the armor to finish off the marine.
With damage reduction armor - The comm can spam down meds on the marine and heal him through a single skulk's damage with ease because he's now wearing a mini nanoshield. In the case of armor 3, this would have to be effectively nanoshield on a armor0 marine to be similar to vanilla armor 3 marines.
Requiring welders was a pretty big nerf because it
- Added another drain on already low marines PRes (which, of course, gets worse with more deaths/added newb penalty)
- Significantly increased the amount of time marines spent in the 2 bite/2 swipe death territory (so less damage feedback/more new penalty)
I'm also believe that when the marine comm expends TRes (i.e. dropping an armory), that it should give any marines in the area an advantage over comparable aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1960676:date=Aug 10 2012, 01:28 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 10 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Permanent damage reduction from armor isn't a good idea because it will overpower medpacks.
Example:
Now - Marine has armor 0, it takes 3 bites from a skulk to kill. In a fight where comm is spamming meds on a skulk, then it can still only take 3-4 bites for a skulk to kill that marine. And that skulk can bite 2x after wearing down the armor to finish off the marine.
With damage reduction armor - The comm can spam down meds on the marine and heal him through a single skulk's damage with ease because he's now wearing a mini nanoshield. In the case of armor 3, this would have to be effectively nanoshield on a armor0 marine to be similar to vanilla armor 3 marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why I think the current medpack mechanic is problematic and flawed. Armor damage reduction upgrades are a common feature of both FPSs and RTSs. The fact that medpacks break it says to me that medpacks are the problem.
Marine movement in NS2 has always felt pretty inferior to NS1 to me.
Requiring welders was a pretty big nerf because it
- Added another drain on already low marines PRes (which, of course, gets worse with more deaths/added newb penalty)
- Significantly increased the amount of time marines spent in the 2 bite/2 swipe death territory (so less damage feedback/more new penalty)
I'm also believe that when the marine comm expends TRes (i.e. dropping an armory), that it should give any marines in the area an advantage over comparable aliens.
This is why I think the current medpack mechanic is problematic and flawed. Armor damage reduction upgrades are a common feature of both FPSs and RTSs. The fact that medpacks break it says to me that medpacks are the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the biggest plus of no armory armor heals is showing everyone that you cannot expect to solo the game (unless you're really good). this is precisely the kind of message we need to send to new players - you need to build up your teamwork skills, because it is a -team- game. it might have been a nerf to marines, sure, but honestly - let's be realistic here - it more than made up for that deficiency in introducing the concept of teamwork and staying together. the dev team has spent loads of time conjuring up gui and interface solutions to promote teamwork - squads, which are pretty much defunct (who ever uses squads in pubs? i don't think i've played in a single game in the past 30 builds where squads were assigned and players on the ground stuck with their squad), huge glowing waypoint things, briefly tried squad spawning, etc etc etc.
AND YET here is a solution so simple, so elegant in its simplicity that gives the game the EXACT quality that they spent so much time introducing these other mechanics to fix, yet they take it out. I'm really frustrated at this, because it's like they don't even know what the hell is going on in their game. Late game marine pushes could have been fixed in other ways than to introduce armory healing mechanics, and yet they took the easy out. WHY.
as in rambo. thanks for the nitpick.
Frenzy Fade disagrees
It's your lead in statement, which your entire post is built around. It's hardly a nitpick as your entire point of your post is that it shows new players that they can't solo NS2, but nothing in the game has ever shown them that they can solo in NS2. It's a completely meaningless justification.
then why did pub marine teams seldom communicate before the armory change? why were people suddenly much more willing to move in groups and stay with each other? as they say, the proof is in the hot dog. your own argument seems to expect that a newbie is tabula rasa, with no prior experience with fps's, especially modern tdm/dm games. many of those games emphasize individual achievement over solid team play, and ns2 is pretty much in a class of its own. if a player comes to a game with no prior ns1 experience, don't you think they will default to their familiar fps habits? what i would also like to see is assist-credit added to the game, further incentivizing working together.
is there justification in making armories have 'heal energy'? i don't think so. it doesn't alleviate humping at all, especially with larger team sizes. in fact the addition of this mechanic hurts the credibility of the argument that armories should heal armor to support marine pushes - in a marine push, a forward armory is constantly "under load" which means that it heals slowly, perhaps even more slowly than before. therefore i can only conclude that there is no valid reason for the current implementation of armory healing.
The only way you kill yourself around an armory that heals armor with a GL is if your being completely retarded.. Its pretty easy to fire grenades near you that wont deal full damage, which the armory can heal quickly... Or with multiple marines, your just gling your teammates... real skillful there isnt it?
is there justification in making armories have 'heal energy'? i don't think so. it doesn't alleviate humping at all, especially with larger team sizes. in fact the addition of this mechanic hurts the credibility of the argument that armories should heal armor to support marine pushes - in a marine push, a forward armory is constantly "under load" which means that it heals slowly, perhaps even more slowly than before. therefore i can only conclude that there is no valid reason for the current implementation of armory healing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're placebo'ing yourself. Kind of like how hitreg always seems better to some people and worse to others after every single patch. The same way that performance fluxuates. "Teamwork" is another one of those anecdotal, subjective, onyxia-deep-breaths-more metrics.
If you are a brand new NS2 player then you will learn pretty quickly that you can't go off and do much by yourself. Only players who are far more experienced their opponents can do much by themselves. Either way the armory change goes, it's irrelevant to this. This phenomena is there regardless.
Healing armor slowly is exactly what armories should be doing. You want them to heal slowly because then welders are still useful. In an ideal situation, welders would have the benefit of healing armor quicker and/or away from an armory. Armories would be backups and would heal armor slowly if a welder was not available such that welders did not become obsolete by the presence of an armory. I don't think the b216 implementation is good, but neither was b215's implementation, nor build 214's. I also think that any of these situations can be properly balanced for, but I feel that the one I described above is the best option.
I hate running back to heal armor at the armory, I still do it because that's pretty good (if the armory is close enough).
I like also that alien can deal some kind of damage to the marines that can't be undone in 5 seconds. Loosing your armor feels more meaningful.
i've done my fraps benchmarks. i would dip into the teens with fps before 215, sometimes below 10 in heavy action. now i almost never go below 25. also, placebo effect is not a negligible thing. if you have a disease and placebo pills cure you, will you tell your doctor that it isn't really cured because after all it was only a placebo?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you are a brand new NS2 player then you will learn pretty quickly that you can't go off and do much by yourself. Only players who are far more experienced their opponents can do much by themselves. Either way the armory change goes, it's irrelevant to this. This phenomena is there regardless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that won't stop them from trying, or suggest a solution.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Healing armor slowly is exactly what armories should be doing. You want them to heal slowly because then welders are still useful. In an ideal situation, welders would have the benefit of healing armor quicker and/or away from an armory. Armories would be backups and would heal armor slowly if a welder was not available such that welders did not become obsolete by the presence of an armory. I don't think the b216 implementation is good, but neither was b215's implementation, nor build 214's. I also think that any of these situations can be properly balanced for, but I feel that the one I described above is the best option.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but what the beta process has shown us is that when we have welders and armories both healing armor, what ends up happening is people demand an armory (instead of a welder) at their location, and don't weld each other.
The only way you kill yourself around an armory that heals armor with a GL is if your being completely retarded.. Its pretty easy to fire grenades near you that wont deal full damage, which the armory can heal quickly... Or with multiple marines, your just gling your teammates... real skillful there isnt it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can win a 1v1 fight by killing the marine, then the fact that the armory is there is irrelevant. It's not like the marine is going to be hitting up the armory in between shotgun shots. The armory only helps the marine(s) if he beats the alien(s). The comm is paying that 10 tres and the marine is making himself vulnerable for a short period of time to garner and advantage in that area. This is not unlike a phasegate being built wins an advantage for marines.
The GL problems you're talking about are a problem with the GL and rather irrelevant to the armory situation. Multiple GLs spamming down hallways happened regardless of whether armories healed armor or not and is not fixed by either state of the armory mechanic.
'Almost 1,000 games into NS2 Build 216 and the balance is the BEST YET. Marine/Alien wins are 49.6%/50.4%. YES. about 2 hours ago'
So the way I see it, and have being seeing it while playing, balance is fixed for now. No armour repair at armories would most definatly swing the balance in Alien favor so really thats one of the good changes of this build. So it should remain imo
It's a good sign that one side doesn't constantly stomp the other in pubs, but it can't be used to justify or invalidate small changes like this.
Example:
Now - Marine has armor 0, it takes 3 bites from a skulk to kill. In a fight where comm is spamming meds on a skulk, then it can still only take 3-4 bites for a skulk to kill that marine. And that skulk can bite 2x after wearing down the armor to finish off the marine.
With damage reduction armor - The comm can spam down meds on the marine and heal him through a single skulk's damage with ease because he's now wearing a mini nanoshield. In the case of armor 3, this would have to be effectively nanoshield on a armor0 marine to be similar to vanilla armor 3 marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is this even an argument? If you make a major change, which making armor permanent would be, you also need to change other parts of the game to accommodate. In this case, a simple medpack nerf would probably suffice; make each medpack heal say a third of what it does now. Armor levels would also have to be adjusted, even with the current armor mechanics, armor3 is borderline overpowered.
Bear in mind I don't actually want armor to be permanent, but I would rather see that than the current armory humpapalooza, and I would certainly like to see a little consistency in the arguments made from certain people.
'Almost 1,000 games into NS2 Build 216 and the balance is the BEST YET. Marine/Alien wins are 49.6%/50.4%. YES. about 2 hours ago'
So the way I see it, and have being seeing it while playing, balance is fixed for now. No armour repair at armories would most definatly swing the balance in Alien favor so really thats one of the good changes of this build. So it should remain imo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While yes, those balance statistics are good and a step in the right direction you still need to consider thats OVERALL and pubs. Those stats don't show HOW marines are getting their wins. Perhaps 70% of their wins comes from the early game where as if the game drags on the aliens suddenly get hive 2 and go on a rampage. It's a good stat but not something to get TOO excited about.
Bear in mind I don't actually want armor to be permanent, but I would rather see that than the current armory humpapalooza, and I would certainly like to see a little consistency in the arguments made from certain people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's an argument for not making armor only a damage reduction.
In your initial post, you present a pretty obvious false choice:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Either you balance the game for;
1. Marines having full armor all the time, in which case armor should be a permanent modifier, not something you lose when you take damage.
or you balance the game for;
2. Marines only having full armor some of the time, in which case options for regenerating your armor should be very limited.
NS1 was balanced around the second option and, so far, so has NS2. The people who want armories to heal armor should instead be arguing for armor being a permanent modifier, if they wanted their arguments to make any logical sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're claiming the choice is between armories not healing armor and armor being a permanent modifier. This blatantly eliminates the variation that I'm supporting, which is solidly in your #2 category. Contrary to your statement, if I support armories healing armor, I do not have to be arguing for a permanent modifier. Your post is lacking the "logical sense."
The logical conclusion to the argument that tedium should be removed from the game is therefore to make armor permanent, not to make armories heal armor.