don't know if it can fit somewhere, but maybe marines could update the infantry portal to let players spawn with some kind of night vision googles, like it was with the handgranade in ns1.
NVGs that can help in completely dark rooms a little more than the flashlights but that are completely bright and useless whenever there is a light. (for not beeing always an help like the alien vision )
<!--quoteo(post=1959577:date=Aug 9 2012, 02:04 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 9 2012, 02:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We have thought long and hard about this. In theory it may sound like a good idea to clearly convey the concept of the power vs no powered areas by having the unpowered areas start out in darkness or emergency lighting, but it is just too problematic in practice. Players end up spending a large majority of their time in darkness, or in red lit rooms. For a single player horror themed game, maybe that is ok, but for a fast paced multiplayer FPS, it makes for a very frustrating experience. It is also very monotonous, and players will tire very quickly playing a game where they have to spend most of their time in completely red lit areas, and where everything looks and feels the same. It destroys the visuals of the maps and the hard work that has been put into them, it makes the dynamic of the lights going out less special and important if they always start off by default every round, and it would just make for a generally unappealing game to the majority of the public.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If that's your argument then you have a much larger problem to address than the state of hive rooms. The <u>entirety of alien-held territory</u> is as you've described, except for the hive rooms. If the red emergency lighting is such a bad thing then you need to rework what unpowered areas looks like, not just say that hive rooms (a small fraction of total alien territory) should be unpowered but not look unpowered.
Above all, we need consistency. You're using visuals to communicate information to the players, so the visuals have to be consistent. Secondly, I agree with you that the emergency lighting is monotonous and detracts from the work the mappers put in. Some great suggestions for improving this have ben presented in this thread, please consider them.
oldassgamersJoin Date: 2011-02-02Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited August 2012
To end this never ending discussion. <!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> REMOVE POWER NODES <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo(post=1959544:date=Aug 8 2012, 09:15 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Aug 8 2012, 09:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959544"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The current red lighting is still bright enough for a marine to reasonable vision (a lot of places its not easy picking marines out unless you use alien vision in red lighting).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why aren't you using Alien FLashlight to exploit your advantage?
<!--quoteo(post=1959716:date=Aug 9 2012, 06:30 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 9 2012, 06:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959716"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make Cysts, Harvesters and Hives glowing stronger. Add diffuse lighting to the infestation so you got an orange green lighting in a room with infestation. Than you can make the infestation slowly kill un-sockeded powernodes.
I think at the core people are frustrated with the fact that as it stands now the Alien Territory looks just like the Marine Territory relative to lighting. The only time Emergency lights come on is when Marines push out and lose a room, meaning deep Alien territory never gets to experience the awesomeness of their own lighting.
I think the best idea is a subtle blend of the best ideas: * Goal: 3-colored lights. White for Marine (powered), Red for contested (not powered), Green and Orange for Alien (Infested)[<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119894&st=0&p=1958900&#entry1958900" target="_blank">schkorpio</a>] * Infestation providing its own light to help give the glow in a region, tinting it to Alien Colors [lots of people, but <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119894&view=findpost&p=1959716" target="_blank">Necro</a> gets special props]
Devil is in the details. For simplicity, this is my take on doing this:
Default: Map is lit. Unbuilt powernodes everywhere. I'm personally not sold on starting the map completely red.
When a room has a certain amount of infestation and an unbuilt powernode, the lights turn off, going to emergency lighting and letting the Infestation glow overtake the role of lighting.
Built Powernodes force ligthing on.
Game logic: * If Powernode, lights on * Else, Infestation > X%, lights off * Else, Lights on (unbuilt powernode)
Relatively straightforward, doesn't bathe entire map in red, one new case for lighting when infestation overtakes an unbuilt powernode region (like in alien Hive).
Should be map based. There should be some more aesthetically dominated maps and some more gameplay oriented maps. I assume the competitive community will end up playing stripped down more boxy looking maps anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1959597:date=Aug 9 2012, 07:23 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 9 2012, 07:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can we try it for one patch? Instead of in theory we can see what it does in practice! It wouldn't be hard to code and I'm sure it would be lots of fun for everyone to test...
Perhaps the emergency lighting could be tweaked a bit so its not to claustrophobic..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was tried out, or at least in a similar way. All areas used to have pre built power nodes, and the aliens would run around at the beginning of the game, taking them all out and making most of the map emergency lit. And it sucked, because players spent most of their time in a dark, red lit map. So we changed it, and we are not going back to that. <!--quoteo(post=1959763:date=Aug 9 2012, 03:43 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Aug 9 2012, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think at the core people are frustrated with the fact that as it stands now the Alien Territory looks just like the Marine Territory relative to lighting. The only time Emergency lights come on is when Marines push out and lose a room, meaning deep Alien territory never gets to experience the awesomeness of their own lighting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Something we do want to do, eventually, once we get color grading in, is to have alien territory take on a different color tint, and maybe drop the light values a bit. It would also be nice for infestation to grow over the lights and filter the lighting diffrently, which is again something we've always wanted. But all of this would have to be post 1.0, most likely.
NolSinklerOn the ClorfJoin Date: 2004-02-15Member: 26560Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1959763:date=Aug 9 2012, 11:43 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Aug 9 2012, 11:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think at the core people are frustrated with the fact that as it stands now the Alien Territory looks just like the Marine Territory relative to lighting. The only time Emergency lights come on is when Marines push out and lose a room, meaning deep Alien territory never gets to experience the awesomeness of their own lighting.
I think the best idea is a subtle blend of the best ideas: * Goal: 3-colored lights. White for Marine (powered), Red for contested (not powered), Green and Orange for Alien (Infested)[<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119894&st=0&p=1958900&#entry1958900" target="_blank">schkorpio</a>] * Infestation providing its own light to help give the glow in a region, tinting it to Alien Colors [lots of people, but <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119894&view=findpost&p=1959716" target="_blank">Necro</a> gets special props]
Devil is in the details. For simplicity, this is my take on doing this:
Default: Map is lit. Unbuilt powernodes everywhere. I'm personally not sold on starting the map completely red.
When a room has a certain amount of infestation and an unbuilt powernode, the lights turn off, going to emergency lighting and letting the Infestation glow overtake the role of lighting.
Built Powernodes force ligthing on.
Game logic: * If Powernode, lights on * Else, Infestation > X%, lights off * Else, Lights on (unbuilt powernode)
Relatively straightforward, doesn't bathe entire map in red, one new case for lighting when infestation overtakes an unbuilt powernode region (like in alien Hive).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Beautiful. Here's the only problem. If there is a certain percentage of infestation in a room, it forces the power off. But a built powernode forces lighting on. And so, what if there is both a powernode and infestation in the room? If the powernode is to force lights on and infestation is to force lights off, what do we do when both are present?
I think alien infestation would have to overrule marine lighting, because otherwise you have alien infestation > marine power, and marine power > alien infestation, which is a contradiction. But then, what about an infestation rush? Where the alien commander spams marine base with infestation to force power off? Is that overpowered, or something that could be balanced and actually allow the alien commander to affect the battle? Perhaps if marine power significantly slows the spread of infestation, making it very difficult to use infestation to override power...
<!--quoteo(post=1959777:date=Aug 9 2012, 09:25 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 9 2012, 09:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Something we do want to do, eventually, once we get color grading in, is to have alien territory take on a different color tint, and maybe drop the light values a bit. It would also be nice for infestation to grow over the lights and filter the lighting diffrently, which is again something we've always wanted. But all of this would have to be post 1.0, most likely.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice. I recall in prior podcasts/literature this concept was thrown around before. Good to know it's still on the backburners.
<!--quoteo(post=1959779:date=Aug 9 2012, 09:38 AM:name=NolSinkler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NolSinkler @ Aug 9 2012, 09:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Beautiful. Here's the only problem. If there is a certain percentage of infestation in a room, it forces the power off. But a built powernode forces lighting on. And so, what if there is both a powernode and infestation in the room? If the powernode is to force lights on and infestation is to force lights off, what do we do when both are present?
I think alien infestation would have to overrule marine lighting, because otherwise you have alien infestation > marine power, and marine power > alien infestation, which is a contradiction. But then, what about an infestation rush? Where the alien commander spams marine base with infestation to force power off? Is that overpowered, or something that could be balanced and actually allow the alien commander to affect the battle? Perhaps if marine power significantly slows the spread of infestation, making it very difficult to use infestation to override power...
My $.02.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally my concept would be Powernodes overpower Infestation. But Infestation can overpower unbuilt powernodes locations (Marines never arrived/tried to build here, always Alien region). This means Marines can make a blitz to turn on the lights and then clear out the infestation. Also, as I've noted elsewhere, the darkness/emergency lights are a prety decent handicap for Marines already, so I'd rather they are able to nullify that and return to a more even playing field with regards to the environment when reclaiming territory.
But I can see the other way working as well. It all depends on the feel we want for the game. Powernodes>Infestation helps the Marines advance into enemy territory and even the environment for combat. Infestation>Powernodes would mean the Alien Commander can spend time/res infesting a region without other players and cause a region to fall organically if neither team is currently contesting it. Definitely though the infestation would have to be slowed imo when trying to take over a region. Or perhaps the threshold for infestation taking over a room would be increased so the whole thing was infested before the power went out, whereas other parts you can make a quick chain, cover ~60% of the floor, and still get the benefits.
In short, this can be a really neato mechanic. But sounds like dev experimentation will have to happen later.
Instead of having a tug-o-war between "good light and evil darkness" which seems a bit childish, why not have "scenarios" in maps... Some systems in a facility (map) have gone out of normal operation, been damaged, emergency shutdown whatever, so the power and light in those specific areas are off until fixed by the marines who arrived to clear out the aliens on that site. This would be a map-specific setup done by the mapper (maybe even with different variations) As an example, take docking: marines arrive on landing pad. The facility had some emergency shutdown, so all the non-essential systems have been powered down to conserve power. That means cafeteria, bar, lockers, ball court, reception(?), are zero lights, while all the other rooms are normally lit.
This way the maps are not universally lit always (which can also get boring) and not universally red and there's a good "backstroy"/reason to why some rooms are pitch black. Then if a server wanted they could set up for the whole map to be powered down dark until that is reversed by the marines who are supposed to take back the facility.
Meh, Ill just wait for a mod that brings in some immersion and slows the game down to make it less an esport and more a game. (ironically enough this would be achieved by boosting damage through the roof- would force aliens to use stealth instead of just lolrunning at marines, and would force marines to work in teams or get picked off from the shadows)
Face it, esports arnt made to be fun to play, they are made to be fun to watch, 15mins long tops, fast paced nonstop action. Made to be cast for viewers more then for players to enjoy. Something the designers need to keep in mind when building this game to be an esport- not a single game designed<u>soley for that purpose </u>has succeded, because they arnt fun to play. The ones that have become successful esports have are the ones that had gameplay 1st, then the sport followed. You can make the most intense action packed super balanced game ever, if there is no immersive factor people wont give a damn. \
Every time it comes up, it follows the same pattern. Someone points out several reasons why it doesn't make sense that unpowered rooms are lit up just like unpowered rooms, a developer points out that the current implementation of unpowered lighting isn't fun when it's the default room state, someone responds with something along the lines of "so.... change it?", and then the thread fizzles.
Even totalbiscuit mentioned that powered vs unpowered room states aren't being clearly communicated!
If the unpowered lighting state is too dark for normal play.... Fix it. If the unpowered lighting state is too red for normal play...... Fix it! You're effectively telling us that the problem can't be solved because the <i>current implementation</i> isn't up to scratch!
Heck, fill rooms with natural light sources such as skylights/etc, and leave those on when the power goes out. Or instead of dimming every light to 50%, how about turning 50% of the lights off and leaving the rest on? There are numerous ways to address this issue without giving everyone dark red rooms to look at, and I'm not the only one who keeps making suggestions on alternative lighting implementations every time this topic rears its ugly head again...
<!--quoteo(post=1959777:date=Aug 10 2012, 03:25 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 10 2012, 03:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was tried out, or at least in a similar way. All areas used to have pre built power nodes, and the aliens would run around at the beginning of the game, taking them all out and making most of the map emergency lit. And it sucked, because players spent most of their time in a dark, red lit map. So we changed it, and we are not going back to that.
Something we do want to do, eventually, once we get color grading in, is to have alien territory take on a different color tint, and maybe drop the light values a bit. It would also be nice for infestation to grow over the lights and filter the lighting diffrently, which is again something we've always wanted. But all of this would have to be post 1.0, most likely.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No offense but the current response sounds a lot of a cop out, as others have said if you dont like the red lighting why not simply tweak it.
As far as power nodes being destroyed if aliens invest the first 2-3 minutes of a game running around destroying power nodes instead of attacking marines surely this works in the marines favour allowing them to gain some valuable ground. The reason aliens did this was that it increases their chances of ambushing marines....not because they where griefing the marine side. So a valid tactic by aliens is being prevented from being implemented simply because the map may not look the at its best...pretty weak reason to force a handicap on a side.
<!--quoteo(post=1959263:date=Aug 8 2012, 02:23 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Aug 8 2012, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959263"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just can't get over the fact that the lights going out is meant to be a desirable playing field advantage for the aliens, albeit to a lesser extent with emergency lighting, but they're incapable of ever doing that in the areas they control most completely. That's not right. The lights being on by default is one thing, but if nothing else infestation over an unbuilt power node should turn them off or something. That way the comm can make sure to drop a cyst there to get the lights off if he wants.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with Zek. I also think rooms without a built power node should have 50% illumination with randomly flickering lights - it adds to the ambiance as well as visually communicates that the area has no power without putting the marines at a disadvantage.
When NS2 was in the making, or better to say the NS source mod back then, I expected dark rooms, much flashlight use and so on because that was not really possible in ns1 in that way because of the missing lightning tech.
But now I'm on the side that completely dark rooms don't make that much sense in the end.
As it also makes no sense, that rooms without any power at all are brighter than rooms with a damaged power core and emergency lighting. That would mean turning this lighting off the rooms became bright again.
I think the best way to go is to at least dim the unpowered rooms to a certain degree. Because we want to see the well done graphics of course, but color and lighting still needs darkness to work. A totally lit room leaves no space for colored lighting.
<!--quoteo(post=1958999:date=Aug 8 2012, 10:23 AM:name=sheena_yanai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sheena_yanai @ Aug 8 2012, 10:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958999"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still say infestation should grow over light sources, making them ineffective. Even if the room is powered, marines will have to get rid of the infestation first, this way aliens could adjust their lighting conditions<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This.
I always thought that the infestation (seen in the Source engine test) would shut down the lights by going over them. Great immersion and great ambiance, that would be freaking awesome... I really would love to see that ingame when the dynamic infestation will be really done after 1.0.
<!--quoteo(post=1959777:date=Aug 9 2012, 06:25 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 9 2012, 06:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Something we do want to do, eventually, once we get color grading in, is to have alien territory take on a different color tint, and maybe drop the light values a bit. It would also be nice for infestation to grow over the lights and filter the lighting diffrently, which is again something we've always wanted. But all of this would have to be post 1.0, most likely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah! That would be more than awesome!
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1960107:date=Aug 9 2012, 06:16 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Aug 9 2012, 06:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No offense but the current response sounds a lot of a cop out, as others have said if you dont like the red lighting why not simply tweak it.
As far as power nodes being destroyed if aliens invest the first 2-3 minutes of a game running around destroying power nodes instead of attacking marines surely this works in the marines favour allowing them to gain some valuable ground. The reason aliens did this was that it increases their chances of ambushing marines....not because they where griefing the marine side. So a valid tactic by aliens is being prevented from being implemented simply because the map may not look the at its best...pretty weak reason to force a handicap on a side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You said it. I mean i understand the devs wanting their textures shown.. but this game was built from the ground up with dynamic lighting in mind - and showcasing it with territorial lines.
Moving away from that mindset is why we now have Totalbiscuit expressing his confusion on which areas belong to which team..
There are many answers.. easiest one is that mod that exists currently that someone already linked! Cysts /alien structures provide their own source of light/glow!
The infestation should be a way to affect power when you can't destroy the power node. IMO the Alien start should always be on emergency lighting (or very low light level) and when infestation reaches the unbuilt powernodes it should start causing them to flicker and slowly dim until they get fairly dark, but not with emergency lighting. That way, you still have lighting and can see the mapper's visuals, but you avoid having aliens killing all Power Nodes at the start, and infestation takes a little bit to spread.
One of the things I really liked about NS1 was that the lighting wasn't super bright and it was fairly atmospheric. You could add that back in by having cysts causing low-light levels to power nodes, built or not.
I understand that the devs don't want to bathe the map in eye-destroying red light at the start of the game, but there really needs to be an easier way to tell whether or not an area has a power node in place or not - and preferably without having to add all sorts of unintuitive UI elements. Flickering and/or slightly dimmed lights in "neutral" areas would be enough to make the distinction more obvious to marine players, while still allowing the map to look as the mapper had intended it to and remaining a relatively simple solution.
Also, I would agree with those who said that alien infestation should destroy unsocketed power nodes, since that allows aliens to level the playing field in their own territory and makes it incredibly obvious when an area has been taken by them.
I like it the way it is now, and the way I see it it makes sense.
Instead of thinking about the power as out until the powernode is up I prefer to think about it as 'untapped' meaning that they haven't rerouted the power to the extractor etc.
Besides, skulks are powerfull enough in the early game as it is. (and this is comming from someone that heavily prefers to play alien)
<!--quoteo(post=1961221:date=Aug 11 2012, 03:31 PM:name=DietOlive)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DietOlive @ Aug 11 2012, 03:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like it the way it is now, and the way I see it it makes sense.
Instead of thinking about the power as out until the powernode is up I prefer to think about it as 'untapped' meaning that they haven't rerouted the power to the extractor etc.
Besides, skulks are powerfull enough in the early game as it is. (and this is comming from someone that heavily prefers to play alien)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you really think Alien bases should be permanently lit the entire game? Think about how easy it is to snipe upgrades with the lights on.
Comments
NVGs that can help in completely dark rooms a little more than the flashlights but that are completely bright and useless whenever there is a light. (for not beeing always an help like the alien vision )
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that's your argument then you have a much larger problem to address than the state of hive rooms. The <u>entirety of alien-held territory</u> is as you've described, except for the hive rooms. If the red emergency lighting is such a bad thing then you need to rework what unpowered areas looks like, not just say that hive rooms (a small fraction of total alien territory) should be unpowered but not look unpowered.
Above all, we need consistency. You're using visuals to communicate information to the players, so the visuals have to be consistent. Secondly, I agree with you that the emergency lighting is monotonous and detracts from the work the mappers put in. Some great suggestions for improving this have ben presented in this thread, please consider them.
<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->
REMOVE POWER NODES <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Problem solved :D
Then why aren't you using Alien FLashlight to exploit your advantage?
<!--quoteo(post=1959716:date=Aug 9 2012, 06:30 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 9 2012, 06:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959716"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make Cysts, Harvesters and Hives glowing stronger. Add diffuse lighting to the infestation so you got an orange green lighting in a room with infestation. Than you can make the infestation slowly kill un-sockeded powernodes.
glowing cysts O_O -> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=115242&hl=\" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....2&hl=\</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also an excellent idea alongside the 3-types of lighting concept.
I think the best idea is a subtle blend of the best ideas:
* Goal: 3-colored lights. White for Marine (powered), Red for contested (not powered), Green and Orange for Alien (Infested)[<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119894&st=0&p=1958900&#entry1958900" target="_blank">schkorpio</a>]
* Infestation providing its own light to help give the glow in a region, tinting it to Alien Colors [lots of people, but <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119894&view=findpost&p=1959716" target="_blank">Necro</a> gets special props]
Devil is in the details. For simplicity, this is my take on doing this:
Default: Map is lit. Unbuilt powernodes everywhere. I'm personally not sold on starting the map completely red.
When a room has a certain amount of infestation and an unbuilt powernode, the lights turn off, going to emergency lighting and letting the Infestation glow overtake the role of lighting.
Built Powernodes force ligthing on.
Game logic:
* If Powernode, lights on
* Else, Infestation > X%, lights off
* Else, Lights on (unbuilt powernode)
Relatively straightforward, doesn't bathe entire map in red, one new case for lighting when infestation overtakes an unbuilt powernode region (like in alien Hive).
Perhaps the emergency lighting could be tweaked a bit so its not to claustrophobic..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was tried out, or at least in a similar way. All areas used to have pre built power nodes, and the aliens would run around at the beginning of the game, taking them all out and making most of the map emergency lit. And it sucked, because players spent most of their time in a dark, red lit map. So we changed it, and we are not going back to that.
<!--quoteo(post=1959763:date=Aug 9 2012, 03:43 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Aug 9 2012, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think at the core people are frustrated with the fact that as it stands now the Alien Territory looks just like the Marine Territory relative to lighting. The only time Emergency lights come on is when Marines push out and lose a room, meaning deep Alien territory never gets to experience the awesomeness of their own lighting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Something we do want to do, eventually, once we get color grading in, is to have alien territory take on a different color tint, and maybe drop the light values a bit. It would also be nice for infestation to grow over the lights and filter the lighting diffrently, which is again something we've always wanted. But all of this would have to be post 1.0, most likely.
--Cory
I think the best idea is a subtle blend of the best ideas:
* Goal: 3-colored lights. White for Marine (powered), Red for contested (not powered), Green and Orange for Alien (Infested)[<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119894&st=0&p=1958900&#entry1958900" target="_blank">schkorpio</a>]
* Infestation providing its own light to help give the glow in a region, tinting it to Alien Colors [lots of people, but <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119894&view=findpost&p=1959716" target="_blank">Necro</a> gets special props]
Devil is in the details. For simplicity, this is my take on doing this:
Default: Map is lit. Unbuilt powernodes everywhere. I'm personally not sold on starting the map completely red.
When a room has a certain amount of infestation and an unbuilt powernode, the lights turn off, going to emergency lighting and letting the Infestation glow overtake the role of lighting.
Built Powernodes force ligthing on.
Game logic:
* If Powernode, lights on
* Else, Infestation > X%, lights off
* Else, Lights on (unbuilt powernode)
Relatively straightforward, doesn't bathe entire map in red, one new case for lighting when infestation overtakes an unbuilt powernode region (like in alien Hive).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Beautiful. Here's the only problem. If there is a certain percentage of infestation in a room, it forces the power off. But a built powernode forces lighting on. And so, what if there is both a powernode and infestation in the room? If the powernode is to force lights on and infestation is to force lights off, what do we do when both are present?
I think alien infestation would have to overrule marine lighting, because otherwise you have alien infestation > marine power, and marine power > alien infestation, which is a contradiction. But then, what about an infestation rush? Where the alien commander spams marine base with infestation to force power off? Is that overpowered, or something that could be balanced and actually allow the alien commander to affect the battle? Perhaps if marine power significantly slows the spread of infestation, making it very difficult to use infestation to override power...
My $.02.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice. I recall in prior podcasts/literature this concept was thrown around before. Good to know it's still on the backburners.
<!--quoteo(post=1959779:date=Aug 9 2012, 09:38 AM:name=NolSinkler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NolSinkler @ Aug 9 2012, 09:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Beautiful. Here's the only problem. If there is a certain percentage of infestation in a room, it forces the power off. But a built powernode forces lighting on. And so, what if there is both a powernode and infestation in the room? If the powernode is to force lights on and infestation is to force lights off, what do we do when both are present?
I think alien infestation would have to overrule marine lighting, because otherwise you have alien infestation > marine power, and marine power > alien infestation, which is a contradiction. But then, what about an infestation rush? Where the alien commander spams marine base with infestation to force power off? Is that overpowered, or something that could be balanced and actually allow the alien commander to affect the battle? Perhaps if marine power significantly slows the spread of infestation, making it very difficult to use infestation to override power...
My $.02.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally my concept would be Powernodes overpower Infestation. But Infestation can overpower unbuilt powernodes locations (Marines never arrived/tried to build here, always Alien region). This means Marines can make a blitz to turn on the lights and then clear out the infestation. Also, as I've noted elsewhere, the darkness/emergency lights are a prety decent handicap for Marines already, so I'd rather they are able to nullify that and return to a more even playing field with regards to the environment when reclaiming territory.
But I can see the other way working as well. It all depends on the feel we want for the game. Powernodes>Infestation helps the Marines advance into enemy territory and even the environment for combat. Infestation>Powernodes would mean the Alien Commander can spend time/res infesting a region without other players and cause a region to fall organically if neither team is currently contesting it. Definitely though the infestation would have to be slowed imo when trying to take over a region. Or perhaps the threshold for infestation taking over a room would be increased so the whole thing was infested before the power went out, whereas other parts you can make a quick chain, cover ~60% of the floor, and still get the benefits.
In short, this can be a really neato mechanic. But sounds like dev experimentation will have to happen later.
Some systems in a facility (map) have gone out of normal operation, been damaged, emergency shutdown whatever, so the power and light in those specific areas are off until fixed by the marines who arrived to clear out the aliens on that site. This would be a map-specific setup done by the mapper (maybe even with different variations)
As an example, take docking: marines arrive on landing pad. The facility had some emergency shutdown, so all the non-essential systems have been powered down to conserve power. That means cafeteria, bar, lockers, ball court, reception(?), are zero lights, while all the other rooms are normally lit.
This way the maps are not universally lit always (which can also get boring) and not universally red and there's a good "backstroy"/reason to why some rooms are pitch black. Then if a server wanted they could set up for the whole map to be powered down dark until that is reversed by the marines who are supposed to take back the facility.
Face it, esports arnt made to be fun to play, they are made to be fun to watch, 15mins long tops, fast paced nonstop action. Made to be cast for viewers more then for players to enjoy. Something the designers need to keep in mind when building this game to be an esport- not a single game designed<u>soley for that purpose </u>has succeded, because they arnt fun to play. The ones that have become successful esports have are the ones that had gameplay 1st, then the sport followed. You can make the most intense action packed super balanced game ever, if there is no immersive factor people wont give a damn.
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Until then, RUSH the Com/Hive! googoo111!!11
I.E. Can't drop anything unless there's a power node / power pack.
That at least forces some of the territory control stuff.
Every time it comes up, it follows the same pattern. Someone points out several reasons why it doesn't make sense that unpowered rooms are lit up just like unpowered rooms, a developer points out that the current implementation of unpowered lighting isn't fun when it's the default room state, someone responds with something along the lines of "so.... change it?", and then the thread fizzles.
Even totalbiscuit mentioned that powered vs unpowered room states aren't being clearly communicated!
If the unpowered lighting state is too dark for normal play.... Fix it. If the unpowered lighting state is too red for normal play...... Fix it! You're effectively telling us that the problem can't be solved because the <i>current implementation</i> isn't up to scratch!
Heck, fill rooms with natural light sources such as skylights/etc, and leave those on when the power goes out. Or instead of dimming every light to 50%, how about turning 50% of the lights off and leaving the rest on? There are numerous ways to address this issue without giving everyone dark red rooms to look at, and I'm not the only one who keeps making suggestions on alternative lighting implementations every time this topic rears its ugly head again...
Something we do want to do, eventually, once we get color grading in, is to have alien territory take on a different color tint, and maybe drop the light values a bit. It would also be nice for infestation to grow over the lights and filter the lighting diffrently, which is again something we've always wanted. But all of this would have to be post 1.0, most likely.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No offense but the current response sounds a lot of a cop out, as others have said if you dont like the red lighting why not simply tweak it.
As far as power nodes being destroyed if aliens invest the first 2-3 minutes of a game running around destroying power nodes instead of attacking marines surely this works in the marines favour allowing them to gain some valuable ground.
The reason aliens did this was that it increases their chances of ambushing marines....not because they where griefing the marine side.
So a valid tactic by aliens is being prevented from being implemented simply because the map may not look the at its best...pretty weak reason to force a handicap on a side.
I agree with Zek. I also think rooms without a built power node should have 50% illumination with randomly flickering lights - it adds to the ambiance as well as visually communicates that the area has no power without putting the marines at a disadvantage.
<b><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115242" target="_blank">Lights Mod, Glowing Cysts & Marine chestplate light</a></b>
Also would love to see Infestation take over a Power Node area and slowly kill the node. Then this mod would do the rest...
###### yeah, we need more mods for our custom games :D
PC Superiority.
When NS2 was in the making, or better to say the NS source mod back then, I expected dark rooms, much flashlight use and so on because that was not really possible in ns1 in that way because of the missing lightning tech.
But now I'm on the side that completely dark rooms don't make that much sense in the end.
As it also makes no sense, that rooms without any power at all are brighter than rooms with a damaged power core and emergency lighting. That would mean turning this lighting off the rooms became bright again.
I think the best way to go is to at least dim the unpowered rooms to a certain degree. Because we want to see the well done graphics of course, but color and lighting still needs darkness to work. A totally lit room leaves no space for colored lighting.
Even if the room is powered, marines will have to get rid of the infestation first, this way aliens could adjust their lighting conditions<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
I always thought that the infestation (seen in the Source engine test) would shut down the lights by going over them. Great immersion and great ambiance, that would be freaking awesome... I really would love to see that ingame when the dynamic infestation will be really done after 1.0.
<!--quoteo(post=1959777:date=Aug 9 2012, 06:25 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 9 2012, 06:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Something we do want to do, eventually, once we get color grading in, is to have alien territory take on a different color tint, and maybe drop the light values a bit. It would also be nice for infestation to grow over the lights and filter the lighting diffrently, which is again something we've always wanted. But all of this would have to be post 1.0, most likely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah! That would be more than awesome!
As far as power nodes being destroyed if aliens invest the first 2-3 minutes of a game running around destroying power nodes instead of attacking marines surely this works in the marines favour allowing them to gain some valuable ground.
The reason aliens did this was that it increases their chances of ambushing marines....not because they where griefing the marine side.
So a valid tactic by aliens is being prevented from being implemented simply because the map may not look the at its best...pretty weak reason to force a handicap on a side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said it.
I mean i understand the devs wanting their textures shown.. but this game was built from the ground up with dynamic lighting in mind - and showcasing it with territorial lines.
Moving away from that mindset is why we now have Totalbiscuit expressing his confusion on which areas belong to which team..
There are many answers.. easiest one is that mod that exists currently that someone already linked! Cysts /alien structures provide their own source of light/glow!
One of the things I really liked about NS1 was that the lighting wasn't super bright and it was fairly atmospheric. You could add that back in by having cysts causing low-light levels to power nodes, built or not.
Also, I would agree with those who said that alien infestation should destroy unsocketed power nodes, since that allows aliens to level the playing field in their own territory and makes it incredibly obvious when an area has been taken by them.
Instead of thinking about the power as out until the powernode is up I prefer to think about it as 'untapped' meaning that they haven't rerouted the power to the extractor etc.
Besides, skulks are powerfull enough in the early game as it is. (and this is comming from someone that heavily prefers to play alien)
Instead of thinking about the power as out until the powernode is up I prefer to think about it as 'untapped' meaning that they haven't rerouted the power to the extractor etc.
Besides, skulks are powerfull enough in the early game as it is. (and this is comming from someone that heavily prefers to play alien)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you really think Alien bases should be permanently lit the entire game? Think about how easy it is to snipe upgrades with the lights on.