<!--quoteo(post=1960799:date=Aug 11 2012, 01:36 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 11 2012, 01:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's an argument for not making armor only a damage reduction.
In your initial post, you present a pretty obvious false choice:
You're claiming the choice is between armories not healing armor and armor being a permanent modifier. This blatantly eliminates the variation that I'm supporting, which is solidly in your #2 category. Contrary to your statement, if I support armories healing armor, I do not have to be arguing for a permanent modifier. Your post is lacking the "logical sense."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't understand what he means... If armor is so easy to get back and most of the time you'd have full armor, then it's almost equivalent to and might aswell be replaced by #1. In NS1 full armor was about as common as no armor and something inbetween, that's half-armor on average statistically to balance according to. With the auto armor in NS2 I'd say 2/3 of the time armor is full and something else 1/3 that means on avg. 83% - that's a 67% increase in armor which is quite huge.
<!--quoteo(post=1960805:date=Aug 10 2012, 07:45 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 10 2012, 07:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The argument for armories healing armor, has been based on your claim that welding is tedious. Running back to an armory to get armor is equally tedious, however.
The logical conclusion to the argument that tedium should be removed from the game is therefore to make armor permanent, not to make armories heal armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welding as the only way to regain armor can be very tedious, specially in pubs. Running back to an armory takes time, but it's a conscious choice by the player to invest his time for a payout of full armor. If you find this tedious (ie too slow) then you have the option to simply not do it. Or you can, you know, team up with a welder.
I'm presenting choices and alternative strategies to the players to choose what they want to do.
<!--quoteo(post=1960811:date=Aug 10 2012, 07:52 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Aug 10 2012, 07:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960811"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't understand what he means... If armor is so easy to get back and most of the time you'd have full armor, then it's almost equivalent to and might aswell be replaced by #1. In NS1 full armor was about as common as no armor and something inbetween, that's half-armor on average statistically to balance according to. With the auto armor in NS2 I'd say 2/3 of the time armor is full and something else 1/3 that means on avg. 83% - that's a 67% increase in armor which is quite huge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I quite understand what he meant. By your own supportive post, it is clearly not #1. Based on your own fuzzy math, it's only "83% of #1." Nevermind the fact that you literally just made all that "math" up.
<!--quoteo(post=1960816:date=Aug 10 2012, 08:02 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 10 2012, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Welding as the only way to regain armor can be very tedious, specially in pubs. Running back to an armory takes time, but it's a conscious choice by the player to invest his time for a payout of full armor. If you find this tedious (ie too slow) then you have the option to simply not do it. Or you can, you know, team up with a welder.
I'm presenting choices and alternative strategies to the players to choose what they want to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you have a choice with welder-only: you can choose to talk to your teammates and ask one to bring a welder along with you, or you can decide not to wait and risk not having armor in the field. the only difference is that your version of personal choice means that a marine can easily play in a self-contained game without interacting (or barely interacting) with anyone else.
<!--quoteo(post=1960819:date=Aug 10 2012, 08:10 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 10 2012, 08:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you have a choice with welder-only: you can choose to talk to your teammates and ask one to bring a welder along with you, or you can decide not to wait and risk not having armor in the field. the only difference is that your version is a personal choice which means that a marine can easily play in a self-contained game without interacting (or barely interacting) with anyone else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. You actually can't play a successful game of NS2 against your peers without communicating with your team unless the opposing team is also not communicating. The armory change didn't invent teamwork for marines and it was only ever a minor, if not negligible, part of the teamwork that contributes to marine wins. The major parts are things like attacking together, focusing on a certain strategy or tactic, etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1960813:date=Aug 10 2012, 04:54 PM:name=KromKing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KromKing @ Aug 10 2012, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What is the point of armor if it is just additional health? Why not have increased health and have upgrades that increase health further?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because medpacks only heal Health. So without something else (welder, nor now MACs/Armory) in the field after a fight you're weakened.
This was a much, much bigger deal in NS1 when you got Heavy Armor since it only increased your Armor. So to take advantage of the boost welders HAD to be dropped to keep the Heavies at maximum benefit. I expect the Exo will have a similar mechanic in place.
preface - i speak purely in terms of pub play, i have no insight into competitive play. i am mainly concerned about the player base starting off on the right foot and being introduced into ns2 as team players instead of team rambos.
those aspects of teamwork you talk about are [i believe] built on 3 things-
- physical proximity. this is incentivized by requiring welders to repair armor. i've played the combat mod and one thing i've noticed is that you very quickly learn to stick together because not only do you die very quickly when you're not in a group, you also get tangible bonuses for staying together (in the form of assist points/exp). the same concept is applicable here. further, if you can run off by yourself and get all those +5's for killing cysts for yourself, you're certainly not going to bother waiting for a teammate. - communication. you can't work together if you don't know what people are doing. and often times, especially on pubs, communication breeds communication, even if it's something small like "does anyone have a welder" or "i need a weld/come weld me" - willingness to buy into the team effort. if someone helps you, you now on some level feel gratitude or obligation to help that person in return. this may seem like a tiny thing, but it feels good to contribute to winning a fight due to aiding your ally. forcing welding increases this chances of this kind of team-building. it makes the psychology of the marine team more...well...team-like, instead of a bunch of individual badasses out to make a name for themselves on the scoreboard of some remote part of the galaxy.
honestly i can't remember how many times before 215 where a marine would whine about not getting a forward armory to repair, and then blame the comm. this is destructive to teambuilding and such. on the other hand, if i drop welders and tell my marines to weld each other as comm, i get positive responses.
<!--quoteo(post=1960768:date=Aug 10 2012, 06:45 PM:name=ellnic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ellnic @ Aug 10 2012, 06:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960768"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just going to quickly say this, it was from their twitter.
'Almost 1,000 games into NS2 Build 216 and the balance is the BEST YET. Marine/Alien wins are 49.6%/50.4%. YES. about 2 hours ago'
So the way I see it, and have being seeing it while playing, balance is fixed for now. No armour repair at armories would most definatly swing the balance in Alien favor so really thats one of the good changes of this build. So it should remain imo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without a break down on how each side wins, take their proof of "balance" with a grain of salt because it means absolutely nothing.
<!--quoteo(post=1960773:date=Aug 10 2012, 11:52 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 10 2012, 11:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960773"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The 50/50 pub winrates don't necessarily show the game is balanced and it absolutely doesn't solve the debate on a rather minor change like armor healing from armories.
It's a good sign that one side doesn't constantly stomp the other in pubs, but it can't be used to justify or invalidate small changes like this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasnt trying to say that this one small change made it super balanced. I said that if they didnt aliens would have balance tipped in there favor, maybe a few percent, but what I was intending to say is that it is changes like this which have created shuch a balanced game. And this is honestly the best build I have played in the Beta since well over a year.
EDIT: <!--quoteo(post=1960932:date=Aug 11 2012, 05:02 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Aug 11 2012, 05:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Without a break down on how each side wins, take their proof of "balance" with a grain of salt because it means absolutely nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your interpreting what I said alll wrong. I should have made it more clear. But read up
<!--quoteo(post=1960817:date=Aug 11 2012, 02:06 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 11 2012, 02:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually I quite understand what he meant. By your own supportive post, it is clearly not #1. Based on your own fuzzy math, it's only "83% of #1." Nevermind the fact that you literally just made all that "math" up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now you're just being a b*tch. First you tell Fana that the two alternatives he says doesn't cover everything, that you see a third alternative, which in the way you word it makes it obvious you didn't understand Fana's reasoning in #1. Then I try to help you understand and you're just being insulting and discrediting my argument instead of countering it head on. If my percentages are so bad, redo the math yourself then based on my estimates. Then you should understand what this discussion is about. Right now you look like a kindergartener running into a highschool lecture yelling how everyone and everything is wrong and you're right.
armory healing: necessary for pub-games. period. noobs exist, people want to play a fun game, even with noobs that don't weld eachother, don't act like you can get every person to start welding each-other.
about the permanent armor: great idea, however much too late in de development cycle to try and change that now. seriously. UWE is closing in on V1.0 so you don't touch base-mechanics obviously.
I absolutely love the fact that you need a welder to repair power nodes now, so even if there is armory-healing, some people will still actually have a welder on them. best-of-both worlds scenario if you ask me!
MAC repairing - haven't seen in used good in action yet - is also awesome.
summarizing: I really don't understand all the commotion you're making in this thread.
I did like when you had to weld armor, but 90% of people who aren't in a competitive match don't. All I heard from people was complaints about that, and then when they changed it they were being sarcastic, like
"Armories <b>actually heal armor</b> now! Would you believe it?"
It's a nice mechanic that is a little frustrating for newer people for some reason.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
People keep getting fixated on teamwork, when in reality the most important marine skill in NS2 right now is the ability to aim well. One marine who can solo 3 skulks is worth more than 3 marines that can kill 9 skulks. Also, requiring teamwork to achieve objectives on only one side (marines rather than aliens) makes balance terribly difficult, as we've seen with trying to balance fades who can take on 2-4 marines by themselves.
Also, the problem I have in pubs is that most new marine players stick together too much. Its not uncommon in an 8v8 for 5+ marines to go in the same direction, leaving both your base and most of you expansions poorly defended. Unless its a specific hive rush, you don't want more than 2-3 marines together at any given point. One of the things that bothered me about welder only armor healing was that it seemed to encourage this 5+ marine newbball effect.
But there is a compromise here, if advanced armouries healed armour only. Early game would still have the team work aspect people are crying for because advance armouries wont come until later and often will only be one available in main base. This would hit forward armouries which are very stronk, promotes early game teamplay with wielders and provides an alternative to healing your armour, everyone wins. On top of that the initial upgrade armoury which costs res doesn't do anything but allow you to research new weapons and jet packs, as it stands this change would distinguish the basic and advanced armouries.
look for all those people who say make armour permanent that would reduce teamplay, gorges heal health and wielders repair armour. The only difference is a gorge isnt the only way to get your health back... it would suck if it was and there was no alternatives. Well thats the situation the marines was in, wielders being the only way to heal that armour and it kind of sucks that way. however the buff to the forward armory is bad because they are already very stronk, so my suggested change prevents this.
<!--quoteo(post=1961239:date=Aug 12 2012, 06:05 AM:name=GreyKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GreyKnight @ Aug 12 2012, 06:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But there is a compromise here, if advanced armouries healed armour only. Early game would still have the team work aspect people are crying for because advance armouries wont come until later and often will only be one available in main base. This would hit forward armouries which are very stronk, promotes early game teamplay with wielders and provides an alternative to healing your armour, everyone wins. On top of that the initial upgrade armoury which costs res doesn't do anything but allow you to research new weapons and jet packs, as it stands this change would distinguish the basic and advanced armouries.
look for all those people who say make armour permanent that would reduce teamplay, gorges heal health and wielders repair armour. The only difference is a gorge isnt the only way to get your health back... it would suck if it was and there was no alternatives. Well thats the situation the marines was in, wielders being the only way to heal that armour and it kind of sucks that way. however the buff to the forward armory is bad because they are already very stronk, so my suggested change prevents this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, this is the compromise I was hoping for. The main problem at the moment is the power of forward armouries and the reimplementation of energy for a single structure in the game.
This would make getting that forward armour healing armoury more of an investment and choice, and bring relevance back to welders out on the field. That said I also think welders should not need to be researched, as they're such a crucial item that they're something you need to get no matter what anyway, and they already cost pres.
<!--quoteo(post=1961207:date=Aug 11 2012, 02:55 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 11 2012, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People keep getting fixated on teamwork, when in reality the most important marine skill in NS2 right now is the ability to aim well. One marine who can solo 3 skulks is worth more than 3 marines that can kill 9 skulks. Also, requiring teamwork to achieve objectives on only one side (marines rather than aliens) makes balance terribly difficult, as we've seen with trying to balance fades who can take on 2-4 marines by themselves.
Also, the problem I have in pubs is that most new marine players stick together too much. Its not uncommon in an 8v8 for 5+ marines to go in the same direction, leaving both your base and most of you expansions poorly defended. Unless its a specific hive rush, you don't want more than 2-3 marines together at any given point. One of the things that bothered me about welder only armor healing was that it seemed to encourage this 5+ marine newbball effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1961124:date=Aug 11 2012, 11:37 AM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Aug 11 2012, 11:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now you're just being a b*tch. First you tell Fana that the two alternatives he says doesn't cover everything, that you see a third alternative, which in the way you word it makes it obvious you didn't understand Fana's reasoning in #1. Then I try to help you understand and you're just being insulting and discrediting my argument instead of countering it head on. If my percentages are so bad, redo the math yourself then based on my estimates. Then you should understand what this discussion is about. Right now you look like a kindergartener running into a highschool lecture yelling how everyone and everything is wrong and you're right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha. Don't be so mad.
I didn't have to touch your argument because you a) made the math up and b) your math disagreed with your entire point that you were trying to support (that ns2 = full armor).
<!--quoteo(post=1960811:date=Aug 10 2012, 07:52 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Aug 10 2012, 07:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960811"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If armor is so easy to get back and most of the time you'd have full armor, then it's almost equivalent to and might aswell be replaced by #1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Almost equivalent" does not equal "equivalent." Nor is this situation in NS2 anywhere near "almost equivalent" to having flat out passive mitigation. I explained why that is bad in my post -- that medpacks become too powerful as the comm would instantly be able to full heal anyone anywhere on the map. That can't happen in the current situation. Armory healing armor is absolutely not effectively the same thing as armor that is a permanent damage reduction. Fana rebutted by saying that they could balance for it. Well, sure. Sort of. They still wouldn't change the problem with medpacks being able to fully heal anyone anywhere even with a reduction in medpack healing. But that's a pretty moot point because that isn't even what I was supporting in the first place.
tl;dr balance armories by slowing how fast they heal armor down to ~5/s. Leaves welders viable and prefered but allows players to heal their armor without relying on yelling "WELD AT DC" over the mic for 30 seconds.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1961283:date=Aug 11 2012, 10:43 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 11 2012, 10:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961283"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->allows players to heal their armor without relying on yelling "WELD AT DC" over the mic for 30 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or, you know, instead of yelling "WELD AT DC" or running back the the armory, maybe that marine could do something useful with his time. Like shooting aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1961239:date=Aug 11 2012, 03:05 PM:name=GreyKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GreyKnight @ Aug 11 2012, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But there is a compromise here, if advanced armouries healed armour only. Early game would still have the team work aspect people are crying for because advance armouries wont come until later and often will only be one available in main base. This would hit forward armouries which are very stronk, promotes early game teamplay with wielders and provides an alternative to healing your armour, everyone wins. On top of that the initial upgrade armoury which costs res doesn't do anything but allow you to research new weapons and jet packs, as it stands this change would distinguish the basic and advanced armouries.
look for all those people who say make armour permanent that would reduce teamplay, gorges heal health and wielders repair armour. The only difference is a gorge isnt the only way to get your health back... it would suck if it was and there was no alternatives. Well thats the situation the marines was in, wielders being the only way to heal that armour and it kind of sucks that way. however the buff to the forward armory is bad because they are already very stronk, so my suggested change prevents this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Limiting it to the advanced armory solves some problems, namely the presence of free armor-healing stations all over the map, but it still leaves quite a few. The base-turtling effect is not hindered at all, nor is the bad behavior incentive of marines constantly remaining tethered to main base because they're afraid to ever not have full armor.
<!--quoteo(post=1961328:date=Aug 11 2012, 06:44 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Aug 11 2012, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Limiting it to the advanced armory solves some problems, namely the presence of free armor-healing stations all over the map, but it still leaves quite a few. The base-turtling effect is not hindered at all, nor is the bad behavior incentive of marines constantly remaining tethered to main base because they're afraid to ever not have full armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of that is fixed by removing armor healing from the armory. In b215, you constantly saw players run back to the armory for health and ammo regardless of the armor. You also saw turtles go on unimpeded, just like the builds before it and the builds after it. The length of turtles have more to do with the marine spawn timer (10s) than it does to do with any armory mechanics.
I was hoping to see the MAC welding armor to happen, preferrably at an unstacking rate.
<!--quoteo(post=1960765:date=Aug 10 2012, 06:42 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Aug 10 2012, 06:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like also that alien can deal some kind of damage to the marines that can't be undone in 5 seconds. Loosing your armor feels more meaningful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This also ties into preferrably having an unstacking welding rate for MACs....the whole "can't be undone in 5 seconds."
The armory is like a giant buzzkill machine when it comes to forward bases.
<!--quoteo(post=1961283:date=Aug 11 2012, 11:43 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 11 2012, 11:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961283"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't have to touch your argument because you a) made the math up and b) your math disagreed with your entire point that you were trying to support (that ns2 = full armor).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again you say this, and again I tell you to yourself redo the math based on my assumptions. If you're unable to do it I'll help you and write it out.
<!--quoteo(post=1961658:date=Aug 12 2012, 09:16 AM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Aug 12 2012, 09:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why is it everyone whinges and whines about marine armor autoheals, but never about alien armor autoheal....?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*edit* asymmetry? immersion? marine armor being external equipment whereas carapace is part of the alien creature? idk. regen is much worse choice than carapace for every lifeform anyway.
Personally I do enjoy the welding each others armour as a mechanic on the front but the whole armoury not doing armour was getting a little annoying esspecially when more general players were in game and didnt do your armour. I do understand very much so about armoury humping it is very annoying as an alien to deal with but if the energy thing of the armoury is expanded on a bit it will be perfectly balanced.
Nuclear Dawn come to think of it had a VERY successful armoury system with energy for each armour and ammo which completely prevented humping and armoury for too long so perhaps a similer display on the armoury. If too many ppl hogged the armoury at once everyone would end up waiting a long time for very little armour as it tryed to supply all thus encoraging ppl to move forward and be conservative. (although dont restrict ammo replenishment that would suck :P )
I do ALSO think MAC's need to be encouraged to be used with the push forward as now they repair armour could be a VERY interesting mechanic if expaneded on. ONLY issue is that MAC's are as fragile as glass. So perhaps an armour upgrade to double their armour (which will make them every so slightly more fragile than sentries) so they might stand half a chance as a support unit in battle. Also on a less serious note im still waiting for that cup of coffee those MAC's keep promising :P
Oh and also for the LOVE OF MAN KIND change the name of EMP to something else. EMP doesnt affect organic life in the slightest, makes me die a little inside as an engineer every time I see it :P Its Sci-Fi use ur imaginations a bit think of some other wild think like "anti-*insert whatever the aliens use for energy here* field" or something :P
tbh i liked the fact marines were forced to heal each others armor like Natural selection 1.
It promoted team work, and also made it so just about everyone had a welder. Meaning power nodes were no longer an issue and you could repair structures on the spot.
However,
In the current state of the game (being there are no Exo Suits) marines do not have the capability to effectively go without armories healing. It is damaging to their pushing capabilities. But i do not like the current state either, I agree 100% with advanced armories only healing armor. This would still promote teamwork with welding eachother but not force it, it would also make marine forward fire bases not so OP being able to regen health and armor with a simple basic armory. If you want it to be fully effective you should have to spend the res on upgrading it to an advanced armory.
<!--quoteo(post=1961658:date=Aug 12 2012, 11:16 PM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Aug 12 2012, 11:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why is it everyone whinges and whines about marine armor autoheals, but never about alien armor autoheal....?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that aliens should not have their innate regeneration, they should require the upgrade or a gorge/healing structure.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1961703:date=Aug 12 2012, 08:25 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 12 2012, 08:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*edit* asymmetry? immersion? marine armor being external equipment whereas carapace is part of the alien creature? idk. regen is much worse choice than carapace for every lifeform anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ? Disagree regarding the lerk. He is all about mobility so moving faster leads to me surviving more than being slow and tanking. In my experience at least.
Harassing a room of marines and then waiting a few seconds and then "Rinse and repeat" works really well for the lerk. In other words: i always choose regen over cara for that class.
Comments
In your initial post, you present a pretty obvious false choice:
You're claiming the choice is between armories not healing armor and armor being a permanent modifier. This blatantly eliminates the variation that I'm supporting, which is solidly in your #2 category. Contrary to your statement, if I support armories healing armor, I do not have to be arguing for a permanent modifier. Your post is lacking the "logical sense."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't understand what he means...
If armor is so easy to get back and most of the time you'd have full armor, then it's almost equivalent to and might aswell be replaced by #1.
In NS1 full armor was about as common as no armor and something inbetween, that's half-armor on average statistically to balance according to.
With the auto armor in NS2 I'd say 2/3 of the time armor is full and something else 1/3 that means on avg. 83% - that's a 67% increase in armor which is quite huge.
The logical conclusion to the argument that tedium should be removed from the game is therefore to make armor permanent, not to make armories heal armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welding as the only way to regain armor can be very tedious, specially in pubs. Running back to an armory takes time, but it's a conscious choice by the player to invest his time for a payout of full armor. If you find this tedious (ie too slow) then you have the option to simply not do it. Or you can, you know, team up with a welder.
I'm presenting choices and alternative strategies to the players to choose what they want to do.
If armor is so easy to get back and most of the time you'd have full armor, then it's almost equivalent to and might aswell be replaced by #1.
In NS1 full armor was about as common as no armor and something inbetween, that's half-armor on average statistically to balance according to.
With the auto armor in NS2 I'd say 2/3 of the time armor is full and something else 1/3 that means on avg. 83% - that's a 67% increase in armor which is quite huge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I quite understand what he meant. By your own supportive post, it is clearly not #1. Based on your own fuzzy math, it's only "83% of #1." Nevermind the fact that you literally just made all that "math" up.
I'm presenting choices and alternative strategies to the players to choose what they want to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you have a choice with welder-only: you can choose to talk to your teammates and ask one to bring a welder along with you, or you can decide not to wait and risk not having armor in the field. the only difference is that your version of personal choice means that a marine can easily play in a self-contained game without interacting (or barely interacting) with anyone else.
No. You actually can't play a successful game of NS2 against your peers without communicating with your team unless the opposing team is also not communicating. The armory change didn't invent teamwork for marines and it was only ever a minor, if not negligible, part of the teamwork that contributes to marine wins. The major parts are things like attacking together, focusing on a certain strategy or tactic, etc.
Because medpacks only heal Health. So without something else (welder, nor now MACs/Armory) in the field after a fight you're weakened.
This was a much, much bigger deal in NS1 when you got Heavy Armor since it only increased your Armor. So to take advantage of the boost welders HAD to be dropped to keep the Heavies at maximum benefit. I expect the Exo will have a similar mechanic in place.
those aspects of teamwork you talk about are [i believe] built on 3 things-
- physical proximity.
this is incentivized by requiring welders to repair armor. i've played the combat mod and one thing i've noticed is that you very quickly learn to stick together because not only do you die very quickly when you're not in a group, you also get tangible bonuses for staying together (in the form of assist points/exp). the same concept is applicable here. further, if you can run off by yourself and get all those +5's for killing cysts for yourself, you're certainly not going to bother waiting for a teammate.
- communication.
you can't work together if you don't know what people are doing. and often times, especially on pubs, communication breeds communication, even if it's something small like "does anyone have a welder" or "i need a weld/come weld me"
- willingness to buy into the team effort.
if someone helps you, you now on some level feel gratitude or obligation to help that person in return. this may seem like a tiny thing, but it feels good to contribute to winning a fight due to aiding your ally. forcing welding increases this chances of this kind of team-building. it makes the psychology of the marine team more...well...team-like, instead of a bunch of individual badasses out to make a name for themselves on the scoreboard of some remote part of the galaxy.
honestly i can't remember how many times before 215 where a marine would whine about not getting a forward armory to repair, and then blame the comm. this is destructive to teambuilding and such. on the other hand, if i drop welders and tell my marines to weld each other as comm, i get positive responses.
'Almost 1,000 games into NS2 Build 216 and the balance is the BEST YET. Marine/Alien wins are 49.6%/50.4%. YES. about 2 hours ago'
So the way I see it, and have being seeing it while playing, balance is fixed for now. No armour repair at armories would most definatly swing the balance in Alien favor so really thats one of the good changes of this build. So it should remain imo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without a break down on how each side wins, take their proof of "balance" with a grain of salt because it means absolutely nothing.
It's a good sign that one side doesn't constantly stomp the other in pubs, but it can't be used to justify or invalidate small changes like this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasnt trying to say that this one small change made it super balanced. I said that if they didnt aliens would have balance tipped in there favor, maybe a few percent, but what I was intending to say is that it is changes like this which have created shuch a balanced game. And this is honestly the best build I have played in the Beta since well over a year.
EDIT:
<!--quoteo(post=1960932:date=Aug 11 2012, 05:02 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Aug 11 2012, 05:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Without a break down on how each side wins, take their proof of "balance" with a grain of salt because it means absolutely nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your interpreting what I said alll wrong. I should have made it more clear. But read up
Now you're just being a b*tch.
First you tell Fana that the two alternatives he says doesn't cover everything, that you see a third alternative, which in the way you word it makes it obvious you didn't understand Fana's reasoning in #1. Then I try to help you understand and you're just being insulting and discrediting my argument instead of countering it head on.
If my percentages are so bad, redo the math yourself then based on my estimates.
Then you should understand what this discussion is about.
Right now you look like a kindergartener running into a highschool lecture yelling how everyone and everything is wrong and you're right.
about the permanent armor: great idea, however much too late in de development cycle to try and change that now. seriously. UWE is closing in on V1.0 so you don't touch base-mechanics obviously.
I absolutely love the fact that you need a welder to repair power nodes now, so even if there is armory-healing, some people will still actually have a welder on them. best-of-both worlds scenario if you ask me!
MAC repairing - haven't seen in used good in action yet - is also awesome.
summarizing: I really don't understand all the commotion you're making in this thread.
"Armories <b>actually heal armor</b> now! Would you believe it?"
It's a nice mechanic that is a little frustrating for newer people for some reason.
Also, the problem I have in pubs is that most new marine players stick together too much. Its not uncommon in an 8v8 for 5+ marines to go in the same direction, leaving both your base and most of you expansions poorly defended. Unless its a specific hive rush, you don't want more than 2-3 marines together at any given point. One of the things that bothered me about welder only armor healing was that it seemed to encourage this 5+ marine newbball effect.
look for all those people who say make armour permanent that would reduce teamplay, gorges heal health and wielders repair armour. The only difference is a gorge isnt the only way to get your health back... it would suck if it was and there was no alternatives. Well thats the situation the marines was in, wielders being the only way to heal that armour and it kind of sucks that way. however the buff to the forward armory is bad because they are already very stronk, so my suggested change prevents this.
look for all those people who say make armour permanent that would reduce teamplay, gorges heal health and wielders repair armour. The only difference is a gorge isnt the only way to get your health back... it would suck if it was and there was no alternatives. Well thats the situation the marines was in, wielders being the only way to heal that armour and it kind of sucks that way. however the buff to the forward armory is bad because they are already very stronk, so my suggested change prevents this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, this is the compromise I was hoping for. The main problem at the moment is the power of forward armouries and the reimplementation of energy for a single structure in the game.
This would make getting that forward armour healing armoury more of an investment and choice, and bring relevance back to welders out on the field. That said I also think welders should not need to be researched, as they're such a crucial item that they're something you need to get no matter what anyway, and they already cost pres.
Also, the problem I have in pubs is that most new marine players stick together too much. Its not uncommon in an 8v8 for 5+ marines to go in the same direction, leaving both your base and most of you expansions poorly defended. Unless its a specific hive rush, you don't want more than 2-3 marines together at any given point. One of the things that bothered me about welder only armor healing was that it seemed to encourage this 5+ marine newbball effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
armory healing doesn't teach marines to aim.
First you tell Fana that the two alternatives he says doesn't cover everything, that you see a third alternative, which in the way you word it makes it obvious you didn't understand Fana's reasoning in #1. Then I try to help you understand and you're just being insulting and discrediting my argument instead of countering it head on.
If my percentages are so bad, redo the math yourself then based on my estimates.
Then you should understand what this discussion is about.
Right now you look like a kindergartener running into a highschool lecture yelling how everyone and everything is wrong and you're right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha. Don't be so mad.
I didn't have to touch your argument because you a) made the math up and b) your math disagreed with your entire point that you were trying to support (that ns2 = full armor).
<!--quoteo(post=1960811:date=Aug 10 2012, 07:52 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Aug 10 2012, 07:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960811"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If armor is so easy to get back and most of the time you'd have full armor, then it's almost equivalent to and might aswell be replaced by #1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Almost equivalent" does not equal "equivalent." Nor is this situation in NS2 anywhere near "almost equivalent" to having flat out passive mitigation. I explained why that is bad in my post -- that medpacks become too powerful as the comm would instantly be able to full heal anyone anywhere on the map. That can't happen in the current situation. Armory healing armor is absolutely not effectively the same thing as armor that is a permanent damage reduction. Fana rebutted by saying that they could balance for it. Well, sure. Sort of. They still wouldn't change the problem with medpacks being able to fully heal anyone anywhere even with a reduction in medpack healing. But that's a pretty moot point because that isn't even what I was supporting in the first place.
tl;dr
balance armories by slowing how fast they heal armor down to ~5/s. Leaves welders viable and prefered but allows players to heal their armor without relying on yelling "WELD AT DC" over the mic for 30 seconds.
Or, you know, instead of yelling "WELD AT DC" or running back the the armory, maybe that marine could do something useful with his time. Like shooting aliens.
look for all those people who say make armour permanent that would reduce teamplay, gorges heal health and wielders repair armour. The only difference is a gorge isnt the only way to get your health back... it would suck if it was and there was no alternatives. Well thats the situation the marines was in, wielders being the only way to heal that armour and it kind of sucks that way. however the buff to the forward armory is bad because they are already very stronk, so my suggested change prevents this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Limiting it to the advanced armory solves some problems, namely the presence of free armor-healing stations all over the map, but it still leaves quite a few. The base-turtling effect is not hindered at all, nor is the bad behavior incentive of marines constantly remaining tethered to main base because they're afraid to ever not have full armor.
None of that is fixed by removing armor healing from the armory. In b215, you constantly saw players run back to the armory for health and ammo regardless of the armor. You also saw turtles go on unimpeded, just like the builds before it and the builds after it. The length of turtles have more to do with the marine spawn timer (10s) than it does to do with any armory mechanics.
<!--quoteo(post=1960765:date=Aug 10 2012, 06:42 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Aug 10 2012, 06:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like also that alien can deal some kind of damage to the marines that can't be undone in 5 seconds. Loosing your armor feels more meaningful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This also ties into preferrably having an unstacking welding rate for MACs....the whole "can't be undone in 5 seconds."
The armory is like a giant buzzkill machine when it comes to forward bases.
Again you say this, and again I tell you to yourself redo the math based on my assumptions.
If you're unable to do it I'll help you and write it out.
instead of telling eachother that their reasoning is lame; explain your own reasoning even better.
believe me, that'd be more impressing then ###### back and forth at eachother.
kthxbye
*edit* asymmetry? immersion? marine armor being external equipment whereas carapace is part of the alien creature? idk. regen is much worse choice than carapace for every lifeform anyway.
Nuclear Dawn come to think of it had a VERY successful armoury system with energy for each armour and ammo which completely prevented humping and armoury for too long so perhaps a similer display on the armoury. If too many ppl hogged the armoury at once everyone would end up waiting a long time for very little armour as it tryed to supply all thus encoraging ppl to move forward and be conservative. (although dont restrict ammo replenishment that would suck :P )
I do ALSO think MAC's need to be encouraged to be used with the push forward as now they repair armour could be a VERY interesting mechanic if expaneded on. ONLY issue is that MAC's are as fragile as glass. So perhaps an armour upgrade to double their armour (which will make them every so slightly more fragile than sentries) so they might stand half a chance as a support unit in battle. Also on a less serious note im still waiting for that cup of coffee those MAC's keep promising :P
Oh and also for the LOVE OF MAN KIND change the name of EMP to something else. EMP doesnt affect organic life in the slightest, makes me die a little inside as an engineer every time I see it :P Its Sci-Fi use ur imaginations a bit think of some other wild think like "anti-*insert whatever the aliens use for energy here* field" or something :P
It promoted team work, and also made it so just about everyone had a welder. Meaning power nodes were no longer an issue and you could repair structures on the spot.
However,
In the current state of the game (being there are no Exo Suits) marines do not have the capability to effectively go without armories healing. It is damaging to their pushing capabilities. But i do not like the current state either, I agree 100% with advanced armories only healing armor. This would still promote teamwork with welding eachother but not force it, it would also make marine forward fire bases not so OP being able to regen health and armor with a simple basic armory. If you want it to be fully effective you should have to spend the res on upgrading it to an advanced armory.
My 2 cents
I think that aliens should not have their innate regeneration, they should require the upgrade or a gorge/healing structure.
? Disagree regarding the lerk.
He is all about mobility so moving faster leads to me surviving more than being slow and tanking. In my experience at least.
Harassing a room of marines and then waiting a few seconds and then "Rinse and repeat" works really well for the lerk.
In other words: i always choose regen over cara for that class.