Does anyone else think gun/armour upgrades are too damn powerful?
Imbalanxd
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
So, after countless games where I managed to get three hives, all the upgrades, and start pumping out Onos, only to be pushed back and lose hives to nothing more than light marines with LMGs, I have started to think that the gun and armour upgrades make light marines far too formidable.
While it is true you need "teamwork" to gain the full effect (its not really teamwork, its just being in the same place as other people), the power marines gain in large groups when they have these upgrades is unprecedented. Skulks with 3 hives and upgrades (which as far as a tech tree goes is waaaaay above lvl 3 guns and armour, or at least its supposed to be) aren't anywhere near as powerful as marines are when in a group. I think a decision needs to be made here, because I feel that at the moment, the true meaning of three hives isn't clear. In NS1 (just as a reference), three hives meant GG. Unless the marines did something utterly amazing, once the aliens had all their upgrades down, the game was over, and there was only a short-lived turtle to look forward to. Now it seems like three hives is the balance point, at which marines and aliens can begin fighting on even ground, except its actually really difficult to get three hives.
Here's my suggestion. Its pretty crazy and I'm sure everyone will hate it, but maybe it will get the ball rolling. Tech points = upgrade levels. One tech point, level one guns. Two tech points, level two guns, etc. The idea behind this is, level 3 guns and armour are marines biggest asset. Above all else, you really want this. They don't deserve to have it when all they hold is one tech point.
While it is true you need "teamwork" to gain the full effect (its not really teamwork, its just being in the same place as other people), the power marines gain in large groups when they have these upgrades is unprecedented. Skulks with 3 hives and upgrades (which as far as a tech tree goes is waaaaay above lvl 3 guns and armour, or at least its supposed to be) aren't anywhere near as powerful as marines are when in a group. I think a decision needs to be made here, because I feel that at the moment, the true meaning of three hives isn't clear. In NS1 (just as a reference), three hives meant GG. Unless the marines did something utterly amazing, once the aliens had all their upgrades down, the game was over, and there was only a short-lived turtle to look forward to. Now it seems like three hives is the balance point, at which marines and aliens can begin fighting on even ground, except its actually really difficult to get three hives.
Here's my suggestion. Its pretty crazy and I'm sure everyone will hate it, but maybe it will get the ball rolling. Tech points = upgrade levels. One tech point, level one guns. Two tech points, level two guns, etc. The idea behind this is, level 3 guns and armour are marines biggest asset. Above all else, you really want this. They don't deserve to have it when all they hold is one tech point.
Comments
If youre getting destroyed by vanilla marines when you have 3 hives aka stomp+vortex+umbra etc., unlimited lifeforms and all ups, the fault is not in the game.
What he said.
Wait for xeno to be buffed to proper damage numbers.
Oh and spawn waves / spawning scaling with hives properly.
Oh and other stuff, but mainly those two when talking about 3 hive gg.
To be frank, I'm quite impressed so far with the patch. Good going UWE.
as for the tier3 alien tech, i think they are fine (but several people don't know how to handle them yet, e.g. vortex) except xenocide which is rarely ever seen or used.
Together with umbra and vortex oni can easily take down the power.
Wait for xeno to be buffed to proper damage numbers.
Oh and spawn waves / spawning scaling with hives properly.
Oh and other stuff, but mainly those two when talking about 3 hive gg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think xeno is going to work with the current alien spawn system. No res while you're dead and you have to wait awful long times until you respawn.
While it is true you need "teamwork" to gain the full effect (its not really teamwork, its just being in the same place as other people), the power marines gain in large groups when they have these upgrades is unprecedented. Skulks with 3 hives and upgrades (which as far as a tech tree goes is waaaaay above lvl 3 guns and armour, or at least its supposed to be) aren't anywhere near as powerful as marines are when in a group. I think a decision needs to be made here, because I feel that at the moment, the true meaning of three hives isn't clear. In NS1 (just as a reference), three hives meant GG. Unless the marines did something utterly amazing, once the aliens had all their upgrades down, the game was over, and there was only a short-lived turtle to look forward to. Now it seems like three hives is the balance point, at which marines and aliens can begin fighting on even ground, except its actually really difficult to get three hives.
Here's my suggestion. Its pretty crazy and I'm sure everyone will hate it, but maybe it will get the ball rolling. Tech points = upgrade levels. One tech point, level one guns. Two tech points, level two guns, etc. The idea behind this is, level 3 guns and armour are marines biggest asset. Above all else, you really want this. They don't deserve to have it when all they hold is one tech point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that the weapon and armour upgrades cause balance issues, a vanilla spawning marine at the 10 min mark and a vanilla skulk are not even comparable.
Its been a bit of a bug bear of mine that marines spawn fully teched up and aliens spawn as cardboard cut outs, the tech advances of the marines breaks the tech trees as unlike ns1 aliens dont have comparable upgrade systems.
Asymmetry is great but at times it doesn't work....this seems to be one of them.
I actually do like the idea you have put forward in relation to tech points upgrading armour and weapons, nice part is it can be balanced for both sides.
You balance the starting points and simply leave it up to tech point control to seperate, means aliens will have easier time of ending a game.
This actually has a decent premise to it...but belongs in Ideas and suggestion more than general.
Alternative is to give aliens a tier upgrade system for their attack and defense parameters for when they spawn.
Having more damage while charging is a good start to make this life form skillful playable.
But having the bone shield (=invincible at the front) would make the onos a real danger. You would need to circle it to make damage. Then its current health may be even to high. Also the legs should be vulnerable at the front as long as the onos does not crouch. Just look at the visible bone plates. It should be invincible there. And every marine who tries to shoot on the bone plates should instantly see, that the bullets are bouncing of and no blood splatters.
<img src="http://www.natural-selection.it/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/kharaa_onos_render.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The suggestion had little to do with this post. My main goal was to see if anyone else felt the same way I do about the ease with which marines gain an extremely powerful upgrade. It served its purpose, I can see some people do agree, but most don't.
<!--quoteo(post=1969230:date=Aug 31 2012, 12:49 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 31 2012, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think that the problem is caused by armor or weapon upgrades. I think its because of a weak and boring onos.
Having more damage while charging is a good start to make this life form skillful playable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason I don't like buffing things per se is because it changes the economics of the scenario. If the current Onos is worth X, can a new improved Onos be worth X as well? Are we unhappy with the current cost of the Onos? Should the Onos get less powerful upgrades because of its new abilities? All these questions need to be answered when it comes to a straight buff or nerf.
As for the marines needing tech points to fuel their upgrades. Its a nerf in a sense, but not a straight nerf. Weapons 1, 2 and 3 still do the same amount of damage, and armour absorbs the same amount. I would just like it if the marines actually had to work for their upgrades.
<!--quoteo(post=1969234:date=Aug 31 2012, 12:56 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Aug 31 2012, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Level 3 weapons gives you a 30% damage increase over level 0 weapons. This means 3 level 3 marines have the damage output of almost 4 level 0 marines. I really don't see how level 3 weapons can cause the problems you are talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're excluding force multipliers, which is what marines are all about.
You stated, that a/w-upgrades destroy the balance. This means marines have a balance advantage in late game (=when the upgrades are researched.) I say, this balance difference doesn't come mostly from the upgrades making marines to good. It's because aliens don't scale as well into late game. Lerk and Fade are fine. But this are mid game life forms. THE late game life form, the onos is the main problem, I think.
And Yes, simply buffing the onos will bring many other problems. Thats why I'm absolutely against an health buff for the onos. The onos need a skill dependent mechanic that makes it interesting again to play the onos. See, bone shield.
You stated, that a/w-upgrades destroy the balance. This means marines have a balance advantage in late game (=when the upgrades are researched.) I say, this balance difference doesn't come mostly from the upgrades making marines to good. It's because aliens don't scale as well into late game. Lerk and Fade are fine. But this are mid game life forms. THE late game life form, the onos is the main problem, I think.
And Yes, simply buffing the onos will bring many other problems. Thats why I'm absolutely against an health buff for the onos. The onos need a skill dependent mechanic that makes it interesting again to play the onos. See, bone shield.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds reasonable, except the Onos isn't late game anymore. Onos eggs only cost 10 res more than Fade eggs. I fear that if the Onos is made more powerful, the 2 hive Onos rush may get out of control.
You stated, that a/w-upgrades destroy the balance. This means marines have a balance advantage in late game (=when the upgrades are researched.) I say, this balance difference doesn't come mostly from the upgrades making marines to good. It's because aliens don't scale as well into late game. Lerk and Fade are fine. But this are mid game life forms. THE late game life form, the onos is the main problem, I think.
And Yes, simply buffing the onos will bring many other problems. Thats why I'm absolutely against an health buff for the onos. The onos need a skill dependent mechanic that makes it interesting again to play the onos. See, bone shield.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah the lack of alien scaling is the hidden contributor to these issues, bringing an attack and defensive upgrade for aliens needs to happen so we can actually have more balanced game play for the majority of the game time.
Under the current system there is a small band where aliens attack abilities match marines armour and weapons.
There is a decent idea here that could go a long way to addressing turtles (simply holding a couple of res points to tech up and win) and force expansion. Without the additional tech points marines lack acces to the number of nanodes needed to upgrade armour/weapons.
Yeah +30% damage bonus isn't a problem. +200% armour bonus is. Leaves them alive far longer to do that damage.
as for binding CCs to the upgrades, i dislike the ideas because losing your second base is already a massive blow to the marines (quite often a loss). and as for the 2nd CC in particular, it is already bound to jetpacks and exosuits which make a huge difference on the battlefield imo. if you add the passive upgrades to that, there's simply too much at stake on a single card imo.
as for binding CCs to the upgrades, i dislike the ideas because losing your second base is already a massive blow to the marines (quite often a loss). and as for the 2nd CC in particular, it is already bound to jetpacks and exosuits which make a huge difference on the battlefield imo. if you add the passive upgrades to that, there's simply too much at stake on a single card imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Losing second CC is hardly a penalty when you compare losing second hive.
so in the end i'd be fine with giving this suggestion a try.
Also instead of making the onos the only late game alien attacker that can live long enough to do damage the fade and / or Lerk need to be buffed somehow more in late game. The rines have Exo and JP/nade spammer so the aliens need the Fade and Lerk to be more effective late.
Anyway, perhaps your team wasn't using teamwork and swarming as aliens.
Anyway, perhaps your team wasn't using teamwork and swarming as aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or perhaps the nerf to carapace might have something to do with it...or the fact that the game is only balanced for a short window due to the asymmetrical armour and weapons systems.
The aliens need some scalable armour and attack (The old DC's of NS1 required 3 to get to top level as did other abilities) in NS2 they have abandoned this and just have the 1 upgrade for aliens Armour but nothing for attack (aka Focus in NS1).
Sorry but there is an issue with the way aliens upgrade compared to marines and now we have exo in this will be increasingly obvious (as will the lack of MC to hive teleporting).
Give aliens a way to upgrade armour and their bite/swipes etc and we can have weaker aliens that scale with marines to a much greater extent.
To claim lack of team work is a cop out, many games have been won where marines have only 1 CC against aliens with 3 hives and all upgrades. Vanilla marines spawn fully equiped aliens dont. Carapace is a choice with a trade off...weapon and armour upgrades are not.