I think OP is just mad that he got out-played by Gorges. His team obviously wasn't able to hurt the Kharaa hard enough for them to feel like they needed all of their team members, and apparently also failed to have basic base defense. It shouldn't be surprising that they got wrecked.
<!--quoteo(post=1969802:date=Sep 1 2012, 09:23 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 1 2012, 09:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I think may be necessary is more of an "attack speed" associated with bile bomb. At the moment you can just run around and basically fire them off like an automatic. I think if the bile bomb had a slower fire rate, and maybe caused a slowdown period after use, that would create the need for more coordinated and less random attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please, no slowdown, that's terrible. Even for Onos charge. It's just terrible. Balance should work without that.
<!--quoteo(post=1969873:date=Sep 1 2012, 06:57 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 1 2012, 06:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Killed by who? Are you saying its harder to kill a gorge than it is to kill a lerk? I'm sorry but you are being very inconsistent here. If the gorge cannot be prevented from doing moderate damage to the marine spawn, then a lerk will dismantle it. Lerks are infinitely harder to kill and infinitely more mobile. Bare in mind, that while the lerk flies around, he will have the same bile bomb the gorge has. That bile bomb will destroy an arms lab in under 15 seconds, and this thing is flying around your base. Its incredibly difficult to take down a lerk that is not actively attacking you, and requires focused firing, from multiple marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> no, I'm saying if a lerk sticks around long enough in the base he would die quickly, same as a gorge. Difference is the cost of the lifeform. Gorge player doing this wouldn't care when he dies because he can come right back, harder to do for lerk.
<!--quoteo(post=1969878:date=Sep 1 2012, 07:04 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Sep 1 2012, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What are the full changes you'd propose?
If the damage is lessened I don't think it's going to make a big deal.. and if BB is reimplemented on lerk I'm just going to go aliens constantly and harass with it because imo is was very powerful..... you could blind marines with spore so your skulk friends take down the marines, then destroy power nodes and buildings while the kham and reinforcing gorge move in to take resources. Yeah, people did still play gorge, watching them though.. it looked boring.. building in the back, then moving in and reinforcing the new room by building.. again, healing fades and lerks. I don't think any change is going to matter.. if you couldn't kill the gorge you aren't going to kill the lerk! Even to kill the lerk, you have to first go find the gorge that's allowing him to escape with 10hp and come back 10 seconds later.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would propose giving the lerk BB and balancing it that way, then give the gorge more buildings.
<!--quoteo(post=1969889:date=Sep 1 2012, 07:27 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Sep 1 2012, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What. A grenade launching, JP marine does a huge amount of damage, mostly due to his ability to survive. GLs do so much damage that alien comms will invest hundreds of Tres on whip spam around hives. Gorges do alot of damage, but die very quickly. Alone all a gorge does is forces marines to weld, a lone JP will kill carapace shells and other upgrades before anyone catches him.
lol no. Healing and building gets dull, being able to destroy bases is alot of fun. Indeed gorges need more to build, but I don't want to lose bile.
No, they didn't. The bile was weak on lerk, but the lerks themselves never died when doing bombing runs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> you think healing and building is dull, not everyone does. I believe Gorges should have more building abilities, let them build mini crags or bring back the mini cysts. Give them a purpose.
<!--quoteo(post=1969892:date=Sep 1 2012, 07:40 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 1 2012, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think what you are proposing is not bile bomb on a different lifeform, but a weaker bile bomb.
If your main argument is that bile bomb should not be on gorge, then you would have to give the exact same bile bomb gorge currently has to the lerk. However, if your argument is that bile bomb is too powerful, there is no need to switch which life form has it. Rather just tweak the numbers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would settle for a nerf, but much rather prefer building up the gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=1969900:date=Sep 1 2012, 08:34 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 1 2012, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think OP is just mad that he got out-played by Gorges. His team obviously wasn't able to hurt the Kharaa hard enough for them to feel like they needed all of their team members, and apparently also failed to have basic base defense. It shouldn't be surprising that they got wrecked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1969907:date=Sep 1 2012, 08:55 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Sep 1 2012, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many of these threads are we going to get after someone's base gets leveled by gorges? If you can't kill a gorge you don't deserve a base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh great, here come the scrubs who think betas don't need changes. Always fun to have you around
<!--quoteo(post=1969912:date=Sep 1 2012, 09:21 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Sep 1 2012, 09:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->all of your arguments for lerk bilebomb are negated by khamm dropped lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not arguing FOR lerk bilebomb, i'm arguing against Gorge bilebomb. I don't think a Khamm will waste res to give someone a lerk so that guy can go suicide.
Wow...marines whinging about something that costs ten res destroying their bases...sounds a bit like JPing marines. who also happen to cost 10 res and do a lot more damage than a gorge.
3 Gorges dont take down a base anywhere near as quickly as Exo's so saying the stacking needs nerfing on bile bomb can only be argued if you limit the amount of damage a hive can take so multiple exo's dont take a hive down in 20 seconds. Sorry but you cant have massive stacking of damage on one side but not the other and claim its all for "asymmetry".
Bile bomb is fine, its second hive ability and its not like the gorge can run away easily if marines are suffering from ninja gorges then thats their own fault. 3 gorges in your base means almost half the alien sides out of the game (18player) and not defending...pretty easy to push into hive and return the favour. Suck it up marine your GL's, flamers, Exo's, arcs etc all do a heck of a lot more damage and stack up a lot more damage. ..gorge needs something to make him worth playing and aliens need a way to end a game.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
Lerk costs 30, gorge costs 10, it's obvious what the bile bomb is more balanced on. cheap siege should be a no go in the game, and the aliens have far too much of it.
<!--quoteo(post=1969917:date=Sep 1 2012, 09:31 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 1 2012, 09:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow...marines whinging about something that costs ten res destroying their bases...sounds a bit like JPing marines. who also happen to cost 10 res and do a lot more damage than a gorge.
3 Gorges dont take down a base anywhere near as quickly as Exo's so saying the stacking needs nerfing on bile bomb can only be argued if you limit the amount of damage a hive can take so multiple exo's dont take a hive down in 20 seconds. Sorry but you cant have massive stacking of damage on one side but not the other and claim its all for "asymmetry".
Bile bomb is fine, its second hive ability and its not like the gorge can run away easily if marines are suffering from ninja gorges then thats their own fault. 3 gorges in your base means almost half the alien sides out of the game (18player) and not defending...pretty easy to push into hive and return the favour. Suck it up marine your GL's, flamers, Exo's, arcs etc all do a heck of a lot more damage and stack up a lot more damage. ..gorge needs something to make him worth playing and aliens need a way to end a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
JP should cost more as well, I'd say 20 res, but at least it's farther down the tech tree.
Ok, so lets assume your not as blatantly wrong as you are.... Explain to us how aliens are suposed to win? Last time i checked with rine spawn rates and auto lvling the rine team can just keep turtling.... Try killing a rine base where they have lvl 3 and 4 IP's without a gorge... Bile bomb is an anti structure weapon, THE ONLY anti structure weapon the aliens have....
Oh and if you say one more time to give it to a Lerk.... you know because the lerk needs 4 attacks to choose from....
I think bile is fine as it is, but the damage needs to be reduced or changed to be either heavy direct damage or med damage-over-time
I once made a topic about not being able to defend against gorge suicide rushes. the result was a lot of ###### saying "if you couldn't stop something from entering your base, you deserve to lose"
Marines have no way to stop anything from entering their base. Don't you dare say mines or sentries are viable for keeping gorges out. Sentries go down in 1 MAYBE 2 bombs
When a gorge enters their base, if left alone for 15 seconds, half a base can be gone. This is for 10 res and a single second hive upgrade.
The comparisons I've seen in this thread are alien siege/basebuster weapons to marine siege/basebuster weapons:
First- where is the Onos is all this base breaking talk it's basic attack is anti structure.
Arcs, JP+GL, Exo:
A.1) Arcs are easily countered as 1 gorge can BB down a whole train of arcs without ever being shot due to the range and damage on arcs. even if they do die, it only takes ~4 BB shots.
A.2) Arcs are easily countered due to shade canceling their ability to fire through walls (very good counter btw)
B) JP+GL marines. This is no comparison as Gorge costs 10 res per once hive and research are complete. JP+GL costs 35 per (JP should be more). Also, at least whips can reduce the ammount of damage GLs do somewhat.
C) The Exosuit. It has a hard time killing skulks due to them just circle strafing behind them, and they cannot be hit by power fist. Cost FAR more than gorges (each exo is worth 5 - 7.5 gorges in res). Cost FAR more to research. They cannot be beaconed, or use phase gates, meaning they have to walk across the whole map -slowly- to get to the hive. Skulks can use vents to quickly and quietly move just outside of marine base, go gorge, and run in.
D) Someone mentioned leaving a player in base to defend constantly. They even said leaving multiple marines in base throughout the entire game was necessary, to the point of "if you don't have part of your team sitting in base waiting for attacks, the cost of this is losing the base". Seriously? No one wants to play base monkey for the whole game and its not viable to have marines sitting in every base, this takes half the team out of the game, meaning they cannot push or gain any ground as aliens dont need to be present to expand and capture areas.
I do realize I am going to be flammed for this post. Many of you who read it (most wont even finish it) will say "just shoot the gorge before it gets into your base. problem solved". This is not a solution. Bilebomb works well on gorge imo, but suiciding works too well. The damage needs to be reduced to reasonable levels.
I don't think removing bile bomb is a good idea. That and healing are the most useful things the Gorge can do. Maybe removing or weakening the dot damage vs structures if it is doing too much damage.
Oh, forgot the biggest reason for why this is a stupid thread and why anyone who thinks bilebomb is lazy and a rine stacker.....
THe gorge is the only true threat to the rine base, if a fade comes into base he will be so distracted killing rines and avoiding fire he wont touch a structure, same for a skulk and lerk.... onos... well odds are if onos is in play the EXO and PG are in play so if he suicides he might get one structure.... Where as if a gorge hits a rine base hes after structures...
In the end if you remove bile bomb all you have done is enable the rine team to play lazy.... Cause you know rines shouldnt have to worry about their base, and if the entire team goes EXO leaves base they shouldnt be penalized for being retarded....
<!--quoteo(post=1969936:date=Sep 1 2012, 10:40 PM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Sep 1 2012, 10:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969936"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, so lets assume your not as blatantly wrong as you are.... Explain to us how aliens are suposed to win? Last time i checked with rine spawn rates and auto lvling the rine team can just keep turtling.... Try killing a rine base where they have lvl 3 and 4 IP's without a gorge... Bile bomb is an anti structure weapon, THE ONLY anti structure weapon the aliens have....
Oh and if you say one more time to give it to a Lerk.... you know because the lerk needs 4 attacks to choose from....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens win by out playing the Marines. If you have them pinned in base then they are res choked and you have a ###### ton of res towers. You win. If you can't beat a marine team that is turtling then you are awful, gorges are not the key to victory there, nor should they. Your second post is retarded as well, no one player whould be able to run into the base and destroy ###### left and right. It's a team game, play as a team.
<!--quoteo(post=1969909:date=Sep 1 2012, 10:17 PM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Sep 1 2012, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969909"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh great, here come the scrubs who think betas don't need changes. Always fun to have you around<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> OP confirmed for butthurt.
<!--quoteo(post=1969945:date=Sep 2 2012, 04:03 PM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Sep 2 2012, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969945"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens win by out playing the Marines. If you have them pinned in base then they are res choked and you have a ###### ton of res towers. You win. If you can't beat a marine team that is turtling then you are awful, gorges are not the key to victory there, nor should they. Your second post is retarded as well, no one player whould be able to run into the base and destroy ###### left and right. It's a team game, play as a team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Take bile bomb away and watch the alien victories your talking about dissapearing. Main reason you see gorges at end is nothing else can take out structures, onos (1 if lucky before he dies), fade is too weak, lerk and skulk are also too weak. Please do tell us exactly how aliens are meant to destroy a marine base with multiple sentries, IP's and buildings? Simply going for the power socket doesn't work against good comms who have power packs for IP's. Basically you will see alien sides f4'ing or marines recycling (which is already too common and a clear indicator that aliens cant end a game once its over).
<!--quoteo(post=1969909:date=Sep 1 2012, 10:17 PM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Sep 1 2012, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969909"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh great, here come the scrubs who think betas don't need changes. Always fun to have you around<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, because it's a beta EVERYTHING NEEDS TO CHANGED RIGHT? Bilebomb has been changed MANY TIMES and wound up where it was and in the state it's in after tons of playtesting. Bilebomb needs two hives and normally isn't even researched until adreniline, leap, and blink are all done first. The most defenseless alien (at least in or around a marine base) uses bilebomb and has to be escorted to even be effective.
Last but not least, until the Onos is made of something other than wet tissue paper it's the only form of attack the aliens have against structures. LOOK, TURNS OUT I DO THINK BETAS NEED CHANGES.
The only thing I would ever support in this discussion is increasing gorge cost to 20 pres, I can sort of agree that 10 pres for a siege unit is too cheap. (edit: hydras would need to be free again though, otherwise no one could setup hydras at beginning of game).
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
@OP
You say the gorge should be a builder not a battle unit.
Why the hell would anyone ever play a FPS game as a character that only builds? That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Sure take the bilebomb from the Gorge, and give him his tier 3 weapon instead at 2nd hive, oh wait, Gorgie doesn't even have a tier 3 weapon....
Why not go the whole hog and just remove the gorge from the game full stop?
I certainly wouldn't play a character that could only build weak pitiful structures, and has to run away anytime an enemy player comes near.. which is the gorge now until he gets bilebomb. You are saying make him a full-time boring, useless creature for everyone!!
LoL. Maybe move BileBomb to Tier 3, sure that is a possibility, but damn it, you let a little gorge get all teh way from his base to yours un molested by your team to do damage. The real problem is lack of proper scouting and base defense. The odd gorge getting through and biling is inevitable, but if it is repeatedly happening in the game, why is your team allowing it?
<!--quoteo(post=1970027:date=Sep 2 2012, 02:07 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Sep 2 2012, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why the hell would anyone ever play a FPS game as a character that only builds?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not entering into the debate of if it should have bile bomb or not, but going from builder and healer to "attacks immobile and defenseless structures, and doesn't even have to aim well at them either" isn't a very good improvement, from the FPS game point of view.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Having the bilebomb on the lerk was tried, and tried for far longer than was reasonable. The problem with bilebomb on the lerk was basically that there exists no way in the game to stop a lerk getting into any marine base and bomb it. This meant that the bilebomb had to be nerfed into uselessness.
There are however many ways to stop gorges from getting into your base. They are slow, they need escort, they can't fly away in an instant. This means that they CAN have an effective bilebomb.
The most effective way to keep Gorges out of range is the GL. One person with a GL will keep any number of gorges from being effective; unless they run away from the first grenade, they will die.
<!--quoteo(post=1969917:date=Sep 2 2012, 04:31 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 2 2012, 04:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow...marines whinging about something that costs ten res destroying their bases...sounds a bit like JPing marines. who also happen to cost 10 res and do a lot more damage than a gorge.
3 Gorges dont take down a base anywhere near as quickly as Exo's so saying the stacking needs nerfing on bile bomb can only be argued if you limit the amount of damage a hive can take so multiple exo's dont take a hive down in 20 seconds. Sorry but you cant have massive stacking of damage on one side but not the other and claim its all for "asymmetry".
Bile bomb is fine, its second hive ability and its not like the gorge can run away easily if marines are suffering from ninja gorges then thats their own fault. 3 gorges in your base means almost half the alien sides out of the game (18player) and not defending...pretty easy to push into hive and return the favour. Suck it up marine your GL's, flamers, Exo's, arcs etc all do a heck of a lot more damage and stack up a lot more damage. ..gorge needs something to make him worth playing and aliens need a way to end a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fix the BB damage stacking and buff hydras to have decent aim like NS1 OCs did and a bit more HP(or perhaps have their HP dependent on # of hives) and it'll be fine.
so weve seen the gorge in many formats over the past few months
10 res gorge 10 res hydras, 5 res cysts 25 res gorge 3 free hydras 10 res gorge 3 x 3 res hydras
weve learned that
10 res gorge = suicide bombing gorge 25 res gorge = alot less suicide bombing
it boggles my mind how this is such a hard issue, why is charlie so OBSESSED with 10 res gorge ? was it because gorge was 10 res in ns1 ? is it because the gorge has lost most of its utility since ns1 ???
The solution is freaking simple, 25 res gorge 3 res hydra .... this solves the problem and leaves a new problem .... how to make a 25 res gorge 3 res hydra worth it ... which should be on the freaking to do list anyway, where are the webs ? where are new gorge structures ? in the mean time however, just make the gorge cost 25 res ... what so hard about this geez
<!--quoteo(post=1970046:date=Sep 2 2012, 01:25 PM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Sep 2 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970046"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->how to make a 25 res gorge 3 res hydra worth it ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There you answered your own question. Thats the reason why it only costs 10 res ...
<!--quoteo(post=1970031:date=Sep 2 2012, 07:25 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Sep 2 2012, 07:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970031"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having the bilebomb on the lerk was tried, and tried for far longer than was reasonable. The problem with bilebomb on the lerk was basically that there exists no way in the game to stop a lerk getting into any marine base and bomb it. This meant that the bilebomb had to be nerfed into uselessness.
There are however many ways to stop gorges from getting into your base. They are slow, they need escort, they can't fly away in an instant. This means that they CAN have an effective bilebomb.
The most effective way to keep Gorges out of range is the GL. One person with a GL will keep any number of gorges from being effective; unless they run away from the first grenade, they will die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if anyone realises yet, but bilebomb doesn't stack and is all dot (has been like this for a while). Its better to bile then spit, then bile, then spit, which honestly is pretty silly. Adren does not increase bile effectiveness whatsoever.
Comments
Please, no slowdown, that's terrible. Even for Onos charge. It's just terrible. Balance should work without that.
no, I'm saying if a lerk sticks around long enough in the base he would die quickly, same as a gorge. Difference is the cost of the lifeform. Gorge player doing this wouldn't care when he dies because he can come right back, harder to do for lerk.
<!--quoteo(post=1969878:date=Sep 1 2012, 07:04 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Sep 1 2012, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What are the full changes you'd propose?
If the damage is lessened I don't think it's going to make a big deal.. and if BB is reimplemented on lerk I'm just going to go aliens constantly and harass with it because imo is was very powerful..... you could blind marines with spore so your skulk friends take down the marines, then destroy power nodes and buildings while the kham and reinforcing gorge move in to take resources. Yeah, people did still play gorge, watching them though.. it looked boring.. building in the back, then moving in and reinforcing the new room by building.. again, healing fades and lerks. I don't think any change is going to matter.. if you couldn't kill the gorge you aren't going to kill the lerk! Even to kill the lerk, you have to first go find the gorge that's allowing him to escape with 10hp and come back 10 seconds later.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would propose giving the lerk BB and balancing it that way, then give the gorge more buildings.
<!--quoteo(post=1969889:date=Sep 1 2012, 07:27 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Sep 1 2012, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What. A grenade launching, JP marine does a huge amount of damage, mostly due to his ability to survive. GLs do so much damage that alien comms will invest hundreds of Tres on whip spam around hives. Gorges do alot of damage, but die very quickly. Alone all a gorge does is forces marines to weld, a lone JP will kill carapace shells and other upgrades before anyone catches him.
lol no. Healing and building gets dull, being able to destroy bases is alot of fun. Indeed gorges need more to build, but I don't want to lose bile.
No, they didn't. The bile was weak on lerk, but the lerks themselves never died when doing bombing runs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you think healing and building is dull, not everyone does. I believe Gorges should have more building abilities, let them build mini crags or bring back the mini cysts. Give them a purpose.
<!--quoteo(post=1969892:date=Sep 1 2012, 07:40 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 1 2012, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think what you are proposing is not bile bomb on a different lifeform, but a weaker bile bomb.
If your main argument is that bile bomb should not be on gorge, then you would have to give the exact same bile bomb gorge currently has to the lerk.
However, if your argument is that bile bomb is too powerful, there is no need to switch which life form has it. Rather just tweak the numbers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would settle for a nerf, but much rather prefer building up the gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=1969900:date=Sep 1 2012, 08:34 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 1 2012, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think OP is just mad that he got out-played by Gorges. His team obviously wasn't able to hurt the Kharaa hard enough for them to feel like they needed all of their team members, and apparently also failed to have basic base defense. It shouldn't be surprising that they got wrecked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1969907:date=Sep 1 2012, 08:55 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Sep 1 2012, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many of these threads are we going to get after someone's base gets leveled by gorges? If you can't kill a gorge you don't deserve a base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh great, here come the scrubs who think betas don't need changes. Always fun to have you around
I'm not arguing FOR lerk bilebomb, i'm arguing against Gorge bilebomb. I don't think a Khamm will waste res to give someone a lerk so that guy can go suicide.
3 Gorges dont take down a base anywhere near as quickly as Exo's so saying the stacking needs nerfing on bile bomb can only be argued if you limit the amount of damage a hive can take so multiple exo's dont take a hive down in 20 seconds.
Sorry but you cant have massive stacking of damage on one side but not the other and claim its all for "asymmetry".
Bile bomb is fine, its second hive ability and its not like the gorge can run away easily if marines are suffering from ninja gorges then thats their own fault. 3 gorges in your base means almost half the alien sides out of the game (18player) and not defending...pretty easy to push into hive and return the favour.
Suck it up marine your GL's, flamers, Exo's, arcs etc all do a heck of a lot more damage and stack up a lot more damage. ..gorge needs something to make him worth playing and aliens need a way to end a game.
3 Gorges dont take down a base anywhere near as quickly as Exo's so saying the stacking needs nerfing on bile bomb can only be argued if you limit the amount of damage a hive can take so multiple exo's dont take a hive down in 20 seconds.
Sorry but you cant have massive stacking of damage on one side but not the other and claim its all for "asymmetry".
Bile bomb is fine, its second hive ability and its not like the gorge can run away easily if marines are suffering from ninja gorges then thats their own fault. 3 gorges in your base means almost half the alien sides out of the game (18player) and not defending...pretty easy to push into hive and return the favour.
Suck it up marine your GL's, flamers, Exo's, arcs etc all do a heck of a lot more damage and stack up a lot more damage. ..gorge needs something to make him worth playing and aliens need a way to end a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
JP should cost more as well, I'd say 20 res, but at least it's farther down the tech tree.
Oh and if you say one more time to give it to a Lerk.... you know because the lerk needs 4 attacks to choose from....
I once made a topic about not being able to defend against gorge suicide rushes. the result was a lot of ###### saying "if you couldn't stop something from entering your base, you deserve to lose"
Marines have no way to stop anything from entering their base. Don't you dare say mines or sentries are viable for keeping gorges out. Sentries go down in 1 MAYBE 2 bombs
When a gorge enters their base, if left alone for 15 seconds, half a base can be gone. This is for 10 res and a single second hive upgrade.
The comparisons I've seen in this thread are alien siege/basebuster weapons to marine siege/basebuster weapons:
First- where is the Onos is all this base breaking talk it's basic attack is anti structure.
Arcs, JP+GL, Exo:
A.1) Arcs are easily countered as 1 gorge can BB down a whole train of arcs without ever being shot due to the range and damage on arcs. even if they do die, it only takes ~4 BB shots.
A.2) Arcs are easily countered due to shade canceling their ability to fire through walls (very good counter btw)
B) JP+GL marines. This is no comparison as Gorge costs 10 res per once hive and research are complete. JP+GL costs 35 per (JP should be more). Also, at least whips can reduce the ammount of damage GLs do somewhat.
C) The Exosuit. It has a hard time killing skulks due to them just circle strafing behind them, and they cannot be hit by power fist. Cost FAR more than gorges (each exo is worth 5 - 7.5 gorges in res). Cost FAR more to research. They cannot be beaconed, or use phase gates, meaning they have to walk across the whole map -slowly- to get to the hive. Skulks can use vents to quickly and quietly move just outside of marine base, go gorge, and run in.
D) Someone mentioned leaving a player in base to defend constantly. They even said leaving multiple marines in base throughout the entire game was necessary, to the point of "if you don't have part of your team sitting in base waiting for attacks, the cost of this is losing the base". Seriously? No one wants to play base monkey for the whole game and its not viable to have marines sitting in every base, this takes half the team out of the game, meaning they cannot push or gain any ground as aliens dont need to be present to expand and capture areas.
I do realize I am going to be flammed for this post. Many of you who read it (most wont even finish it) will say "just shoot the gorge before it gets into your base. problem solved". This is not a solution. Bilebomb works well on gorge imo, but suiciding works too well. The damage needs to be reduced to reasonable levels.
Flame on.
Maybe removing or weakening the dot damage vs structures if it is doing too much damage.
Right now I do not feel it is overpowered though.
THe gorge is the only true threat to the rine base, if a fade comes into base he will be so distracted killing rines and avoiding fire he wont touch a structure, same for a skulk and lerk.... onos... well odds are if onos is in play the EXO and PG are in play so if he suicides he might get one structure.... Where as if a gorge hits a rine base hes after structures...
In the end if you remove bile bomb all you have done is enable the rine team to play lazy.... Cause you know rines shouldnt have to worry about their base, and if the entire team goes EXO leaves base they shouldnt be penalized for being retarded....
Oh and if you say one more time to give it to a Lerk.... you know because the lerk needs 4 attacks to choose from....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens win by out playing the Marines. If you have them pinned in base then they are res choked and you have a ###### ton of res towers. You win. If you can't beat a marine team that is turtling then you are awful, gorges are not the key to victory there, nor should they. Your second post is retarded as well, no one player whould be able to run into the base and destroy ###### left and right. It's a team game, play as a team.
OP confirmed for butthurt.
Take bile bomb away and watch the alien victories your talking about dissapearing.
Main reason you see gorges at end is nothing else can take out structures, onos (1 if lucky before he dies), fade is too weak, lerk and skulk are also too weak.
Please do tell us exactly how aliens are meant to destroy a marine base with multiple sentries, IP's and buildings? Simply going for the power socket doesn't work against good comms who have power packs for IP's.
Basically you will see alien sides f4'ing or marines recycling (which is already too common and a clear indicator that aliens cant end a game once its over).
Yes, because it's a beta EVERYTHING NEEDS TO CHANGED RIGHT? Bilebomb has been changed MANY TIMES and wound up where it was and in the state it's in after tons of playtesting. Bilebomb needs two hives and normally isn't even researched until adreniline, leap, and blink are all done first. The most defenseless alien (at least in or around a marine base) uses bilebomb and has to be escorted to even be effective.
Last but not least, until the Onos is made of something other than wet tissue paper it's the only form of attack the aliens have against structures. LOOK, TURNS OUT I DO THINK BETAS NEED CHANGES.
JPs need to be 20 pres aswell though.
You say the gorge should be a builder not a battle unit.
Why the hell would anyone ever play a FPS game as a character that only builds? That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Sure take the bilebomb from the Gorge, and give him his tier 3 weapon instead at 2nd hive, oh wait, Gorgie doesn't even have a tier 3 weapon....
Why not go the whole hog and just remove the gorge from the game full stop?
I certainly wouldn't play a character that could only build weak pitiful structures, and has to run away anytime an enemy player comes near.. which is the gorge now until he gets bilebomb. You are saying make him a full-time boring, useless creature for everyone!!
LoL. Maybe move BileBomb to Tier 3, sure that is a possibility, but damn it, you let a little gorge get all teh way from his base to yours un molested by your team to do damage. The real problem is lack of proper scouting and base defense. The odd gorge getting through and biling is inevitable, but if it is repeatedly happening in the game, why is your team allowing it?
I guess this is a pub problem...
I'm not entering into the debate of if it should have bile bomb or not, but going from builder and healer to "attacks immobile and defenseless structures, and doesn't even have to aim well at them either" isn't a very good improvement, from the FPS game point of view.
There are however many ways to stop gorges from getting into your base. They are slow, they need escort, they can't fly away in an instant. This means that they CAN have an effective bilebomb.
The most effective way to keep Gorges out of range is the GL. One person with a GL will keep any number of gorges from being effective; unless they run away from the first grenade, they will die.
3 Gorges dont take down a base anywhere near as quickly as Exo's so saying the stacking needs nerfing on bile bomb can only be argued if you limit the amount of damage a hive can take so multiple exo's dont take a hive down in 20 seconds.
Sorry but you cant have massive stacking of damage on one side but not the other and claim its all for "asymmetry".
Bile bomb is fine, its second hive ability and its not like the gorge can run away easily if marines are suffering from ninja gorges then thats their own fault. 3 gorges in your base means almost half the alien sides out of the game (18player) and not defending...pretty easy to push into hive and return the favour.
Suck it up marine your GL's, flamers, Exo's, arcs etc all do a heck of a lot more damage and stack up a lot more damage. ..gorge needs something to make him worth playing and aliens need a way to end a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much what this guy said
Fix the BB damage stacking and buff hydras to have decent aim like NS1 OCs did and a bit more HP(or perhaps have their HP dependent on # of hives) and it'll be fine.
10 res gorge 10 res hydras, 5 res cysts
25 res gorge 3 free hydras
10 res gorge 3 x 3 res hydras
weve learned that
10 res gorge = suicide bombing gorge
25 res gorge = alot less suicide bombing
it boggles my mind how this is such a hard issue, why is charlie so OBSESSED with 10 res gorge ? was it because gorge was 10 res in ns1 ? is it because the gorge has lost most of its utility since ns1 ???
The solution is freaking simple, 25 res gorge 3 res hydra .... this solves the problem and leaves a new problem .... how to make a 25 res gorge 3 res hydra worth it ... which should be on the freaking to do list anyway, where are the webs ? where are new gorge structures ? in the mean time however, just make the gorge cost 25 res ... what so hard about this geez
There you answered your own question. Thats the reason why it only costs 10 res ...
There are however many ways to stop gorges from getting into your base. They are slow, they need escort, they can't fly away in an instant. This means that they CAN have an effective bilebomb.
The most effective way to keep Gorges out of range is the GL. One person with a GL will keep any number of gorges from being effective; unless they run away from the first grenade, they will die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ding ding ding, we have a winner.
/thread
I'm not sure if anyone realises yet, but bilebomb doesn't stack and is all dot (has been like this for a while). Its better to bile then spit, then bile, then spit, which honestly is pretty silly. Adren does not increase bile effectiveness whatsoever.
Entertaining thread nonetheless.