noticeable amount of early giving up/raging
senate
Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75023Members
Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75023Members
i'm having a blast playing NS2, and I've put in 114 hours. Lately(mostly after patch 217) anytime the enemy team gets a lead, people start giving up and "demand" f4, press f4, or try to reason that "it doesn't matter anymore", and "it's too late". I'm encountering this phenomena increasingly to the point where it happens almost daily. What do you guys think ?
Comments
But if it's Aliens who are down, they can just spawn more Fades and come back.
This happens every game pretty much. You never get to kill the other team they just give up and f4.
How exactly do Aliens "just spawn more" fades?
Fades are not exactly cheap for players. If the alien commander has enough resources to drop fade eggs, then your team is doing a horrible job at denying resource nodes.
I have found that people are much more pissy in general with NS2. You'll usually find 2 or 3 people telling you how to play and how stupid you are if you don't do exactly what they say and how they lost the game all because of you. It's a cry fest.
Fades are not exactly cheap for players. If the alien commander has enough resources to drop fade eggs, then your team is doing a horrible job at denying resource nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's only 30 tres for a Fade. And it's not like Alien upgrades are expensive. It takes like 200~ tres to get everything but the 3 hive stuff researched. Takes the Marines like 650 tres to get all their junk.
So no, not really. Aliens only need a couple of RT's to pump out Fades.
Playing a the round out after it is a foregone conclusion is a waste of everyone's time. Which games have reach the point of being unwinnable is up for debate. Maybe your team mates are jumping to conclusion, but please don't take the stance that conceding a round is rude, because it isn't.
Why should the losing team be forced to play when they have no chance of winning?
Marines on the otherhand are capable of coming back at any time, up to the point where aliens have entrenched outside their base. However being killed by a fade 5 times in a row is incredibly frustrating when you have a0 or a1. I can certainly understand quitting at those points.
So no, not really. Aliens only need a couple of RT's to pump out Fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alien costs are much lower than marine for tech tree completion, but you hugely exaggerate.
Edit: Only thing I can say in support is that aliens tech out at hive counts often. Hive 1 you are waiting for Hive 2s location. After some research at Hive 2, its a long wait for next. At those points can spam whips or fades, although 30 tres is not cheap or easily spammable unless aliens are already dominating.
Ultimately I don't really think there's much to be done about it using game mechanics, at least not without some very fundamental changes(i.e. restricting player freedom to railroad them into attacking). I don't feel that it's unreasonably difficult to stage comebacks in NS2, at least not before you get to the point where the winning team should already have won but just isn't. I hesitate to suggest a surrender vote because I think that's a really unsatisfying way to end a game and it's easily abused by pessimistic players.
So no, not really. Aliens only need a couple of RT's to pump out Fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it takes 2 hives also
Used to play on a server back in the day and il be first to admit I wasn't the most skilled and at that age I was just a whiny late teen, but the commander on my server understood I knew what he wanted done and always gave me a shotgun every time I re spawned and gave me one first, I always was loud and tried to get people to follow me to what he wanted locked down, normally it seemed to work we won most of our games if my rose tinted memory serves me.
NS always takes alot more teamwork than other games I have played, the key to any team is the commander and you need one marine to act as a leader on the ground, with those two and a few people who are ok following it gets done (hell even the rambos play there part harassment at other sides of the map saved many a match for us)
so the aliens have a commander now? hmm NO I WONT BE TEMPTED IM A MARINE ALWAYS WILL BE! (iv always sucked as fade anyway)
Edit: Only thing I can say in support is that aliens tech out at hive counts often. Hive 1 you are waiting for Hive 2s location. After some research at Hive 2, its a long wait for next. At those points can spam whips or fades, although 30 tres is not cheap or easily spammable unless aliens are already dominating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://ns2stats.org/round/round/5205#" target="_blank">http://ns2stats.org/round/round/5205#</a>
Look at the tres and rt graphs.
Look at the tres and rt graphs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact that in one game a com spent 600 res buying, among other things, multiples of one kind of building does not in any way mean the Marine team must spend 600 res to fully tech up.
- Cannot be used if Marines have more than 1 Command Center
- Requires that Marines have had atleast 2 Command Centers at any point EARLIER in the game.
- Usable only when 20 minutes of game time has passed.
When Nuclear Option is activated, the commander is ejected and all command centers are locked. A countdown will begin and when it reaches zero the game will end in a draw. During this countdown the Marine team will not lose while the command center is not destroyed. (e.g. all marines are dead and there are no IPs) Marine team resources gained will speed up the countdown and if command center loses power the countdown will be slowed.
<b>Bio-Matter Chain Reaction</b> (use from Hive) - The cleansing of this location must be done but Kharaa are hopelessly outmatched. A great sacrifice is necessary..
- Cannot be used if Kharaa have more than 1 Hive
- Requires that at least 3 hives have been placed during the game
- Usable only when 20 minutes of game time has passed.
When Bio-Matter Chain Reaction is activated, the khammander is ejected and all hives are locked. The hive will gain increased hitpoints and hitpoint regeneration. Infestation will also begin to spread outwards from the hive and any marines walking on infestation will be damaged over time. A countdown will begin and when it reaches zero the game will end in a draw. Kharaa team resources gained will speed up the countdown.
Here's an idea I had, hope you like it. By no means perfect but should be implementable with relatively little effort I think?
Anyway in pub games this would be a nice way to end the game instead of the default (rage)quit/F4 from the losing team. I guess even with the restrictions some people would troll/abuse this so maybe when it is activated, the team would have a 10 second window to "eject commander" and if they did, this would be canceled and someone new could go commander. In competitive games this could be a way to try and force a draw, I think it would add to the strategy options.
<b>TL;DR</b> Idea to put a draw option in the game to add strategy and to prevent giving up/raging
Hope this wasn't too wall of text'ish
So your using a graph of what is built to claim marines spend more to get where they want?
I think the fact that marines spend more shows that they have more res outright personally.
but as Techercizer pointed out marines often build multiple armouries etc.
What you dont mention is that aliens dont get Bile bomb until 20 min mark...which is game over time already in most games.
Aliens cant finish marines of quickly enough so they often f4/rage quite...and an alien team that has lost 2nd hive to exo's or Jp's is boned and marines often take their time killing the hive and actually ending the game.
Marines are much easier to comeback as....heck even without JP's or exo's w3 LMG is going to give even fades grief if you run in numbers.
its particularly bad when really good players always join the same team.
In my experience, it's all about double. In NS1, it wasn't a huge deal, but in NS2... if the Marines can't secure double, then they lose every time. But double is easily assaultable as the Aliens. It's kind of a mid-late game thing, but Gorges sitting up in the vents, spamming bile bomb onto all of the Marine's structures...
Just bad news, man. Also, why isn't there a tech point in double? To keep it from being too important or easily defendable? I mean, there's even a space for one right behind the two RTs...
Just bad news, man. Also, why isn't there a tech point in double? To keep it from being too important or easily defendable? I mean, there's even a space for one right behind the two RTs...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
even with a techpoint, aliens could never build a hive in double anyway seeing as how its so easy for marines to arc it from either side. So a tech point in double would only exists to make it easier for marines, not aliens
That's sort of what I mean though. Marines absolutely need double to win, but Aliens can do without it. It's not like it would hurt to give the Marines a slight advantage on that map, considering that they have the same starting point every time so the Aliens already know immediately where they are. (Of course, you can generally figure out where the enemy hive/cc is simply based on where first contact occurs, but you can't really form a strategy prior to that point. For Aliens on Veil, they can immediately put a plan into action because they know both where the Marines started and how they're going to move- Marines can't help but move predictably on Veil. They have no options except for the pseudo-choice of sending the Skylight guys over to Sub instead of having them move to secure double, but that's not a winning strategy.)
Veil is at 49/51 balance, aliens/marines in the current build; Summit is around 55/45. Veil is actually the most favorable map for marines at the moment, although I anticipate that will change at least slightly in the next build due to some map adjustments I've made.
<!--quoteo(post=1973900:date=Sep 8 2012, 02:09 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 8 2012, 02:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1973900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just bad news, man. Also, why isn't there a tech point in double? To keep it from being too important or easily defendable? I mean, there's even a space for one right behind the two RTs...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason there is space is because we tested it with a TP, and found that the idea that putting a tech point in double would make it less important, is simply incorrect. Double will be shrunken to bring its size in line with NS1, and to remove the current marine bias of the room.
...? The highest win rate for Marines on any given map is Veil with 49/51...which is extremely close to 50/50...but you're changing it to favor the Aliens?
Why do you hate Marines?
Edit: And I wasn't saying that adding a tech point to double would make it less important. I was asking if the tech point was removed because having a tech point there made it too important.
Well, in pub games there are certain common critical points. If fades appear before the marine team is ready it's an alien win; if the marines hold the fade advance and tech up, it's probably a marine win, so most pub games are won or lost the 5 minutes after Blink is researched. Beyond that point it's a predictable 15 minute consolidation and turtling with the losing team unable to do anything meaningful.
Why do you hate Marines?
Edit: And I wasn't saying that adding a tech point to double would make it less important. I was asking if the tech point was removed because having a tech point there made it too important.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no mapper is going to spend hundreds of hours making a map that is purposely favoured to a particular side becuse of the mappers bias. Almost all mappers want to create balanced maps, that should be pretty obvious.
Besides, win loss ratios are missleading as there are just too many variables which can distort the numbers. A map with 50:50 ratio in pub games may be 80:20 in organised matches between teams with similar skill levels. For a mapper to chase after the 50:50 win ratio from bogus statistics generated in pub play, is rather like chasing after your own tail.
Besides, win loss ratios are missleading as there are just too many variables which can distort the numbers. A map with 50:50 ratio in pub games may be 80:20 in organised matches between teams with similar skill levels. For a mapper to chase after the 50:50 win ratio from bogus statistics generated in pub play, is rather like chasing after your own tail.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As mentioned, Marine starting location is static and 'locked in' (In that they have nowhere to go. Send some guys to Topo, some to Skylight, and then have them move onto Nano and Sub- That's pretty much the only feasible way to go about it because of the linear paths) so that Marine expansion is incredibly predictable. If the middle of the map is changed to better support the Aliens, then I just see the map becoming stacked against the Marines.
Veil is at 49/51 balance, aliens/marines in the current build; Summit is around 55/45. Veil is actually the most favorable map for marines at the moment, although I anticipate that will change at least slightly in the next build due to some map adjustments I've made.
The reason there is space is because we tested it with a TP, and found that the idea that putting a tech point in double would make it less important, is simply incorrect. Double will be shrunken to bring its size in line with NS1, and to remove the current marine bias of the room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that Veil is "balanced" in that the win ratio is pretty close, at least from my experience. Which with it being a new map is a decent amount of games. Although I do bet a majority of the alien losses come from sub-sector spawns. However the problem I have with the map is the way it snowballs. In a relatively standard pub game you can pretty much decide the winner within the first 10 minutes or so. Miracles do happen, but seldom.
Why Sub? Wouldn't that be a good spawn for the Aliens because it allows them to head up through Skylight together, wipe out the Marines there (denying the RT), and then hit the base? (I rarely play Alien, hence my asking)
I'd think that most Alien losses would be from spawning in Pipeline because of the cyst placement bug. Unless that was fixed?