Flamethrower lacks a role
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Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
A bug was fixed in 217 or 216 I think, where the Flamethrower reduced alien energy regeneration by 80% instead of 20%.
20% would be a noticeable hit if it was caused by something more permanent like a downside to carapace or whatever, but in-combat it makes little difference. Might prevent a skulk from leaping away when it otherwise would have succeeded, but it'd be rare and certainly not a good trade for the DPS the rifle has.
So since it's no longer an effective support weapon, long since stopped being an effective regular weapon, and infestation can be attacked by any weapon due to cysts... it doesn't really fill any function.
In NS1 everyone wanted a flamethrower to clear out vents with (or well actually everyone wanted flamethrowers because Aliens had flamethrowers, and well, y'know... Aliens!) since it would be <i>volumetric</i> and flow far down vents, while spreading out too much in open space to have much range. I expect the computations+network traffic of a good volumetric flamethrower would still be too much in this day and age, so with that part dropped, could it still be an effective anti-vent weapon?
Perhaps a more "realistic" jet of burning stuff that coats the surface it hits for a few seconds, area denial style? But then, considering how fast aliens move, what do they care for a small patch of damage over time... Not to mention how annoying it is to wait for a DoT field to fade, that really sucked in TFC with napalm grenades, hallucination grenades, nail grenades, MIRV grenades (sorta)...
How can it be rescued from the depths it has sunk to?
20% would be a noticeable hit if it was caused by something more permanent like a downside to carapace or whatever, but in-combat it makes little difference. Might prevent a skulk from leaping away when it otherwise would have succeeded, but it'd be rare and certainly not a good trade for the DPS the rifle has.
So since it's no longer an effective support weapon, long since stopped being an effective regular weapon, and infestation can be attacked by any weapon due to cysts... it doesn't really fill any function.
In NS1 everyone wanted a flamethrower to clear out vents with (or well actually everyone wanted flamethrowers because Aliens had flamethrowers, and well, y'know... Aliens!) since it would be <i>volumetric</i> and flow far down vents, while spreading out too much in open space to have much range. I expect the computations+network traffic of a good volumetric flamethrower would still be too much in this day and age, so with that part dropped, could it still be an effective anti-vent weapon?
Perhaps a more "realistic" jet of burning stuff that coats the surface it hits for a few seconds, area denial style? But then, considering how fast aliens move, what do they care for a small patch of damage over time... Not to mention how annoying it is to wait for a DoT field to fade, that really sucked in TFC with napalm grenades, hallucination grenades, nail grenades, MIRV grenades (sorta)...
How can it be rescued from the depths it has sunk to?
Comments
Flamers are very bad solo and in short bursts, but in sustained fights with cover they can focus on lifeforms/structures for longer periods of time (and flamers ramp damage longer on target, so their dps does outmatch the lmg while also sapping energy). I agree that they are situational, and usually dont out-dps gl's, so they are rarely seen.
But even if it could still do that, the Grenade Launcher would remain the better choice for cleaning out vents.
I still think it would be better for the fire DOT to null internal regeneration and for the primary fire to drain energy instead of just reduce it's regeneration rate. The damage would remain low so it still wouldn't be a good weapon for killing, but even just the threat of having their energy drained might be enough to force Aliens to keep their distance. I mean, as it is...they just wade through the flames and kill you anyway.
For the people that think it would be overpowered for the energy drain, the MAC has an AOE that drains energy significantly for only 3 tres. For a weapon that costs 30 Pres and is very poor at killing Lifeforms...yeah.
+1
Flamers used to drain energy, long before adren came out. I never found it a problem, just another precaution I had to take into consideration when charging into a group of marines.
Maybe I'll make a mod when 1.0 hits. And by make a mod, I mean get someone who can code to make one for me.
-easy to hit with, which is a good thing against fades, leaping skulks and lerks (and even more useful if you have low fps :D)
-setting the target on fire is nice to "mark" a target: allies will spot it easier
-energy drain might be minor but apart from EMP (which is practically never ever used) it is the only marine option in that category
-burning spores!
-clearing out cysts is a nice side effect when attacking a base, so is the ability to prevent whips from whacking grenades back
-combined with a jetpack, you can travel around the map killing cysts at a ridicolous speed
-damage over time is very minor, but it prolongs the time a lifeform has to wait until regeneration kicks in
none of these advantages is overwhelming, but it piles up.
that said, i also think the flamer is too weak atm. personally, i'd like to see a damage-over-time buff for targets which were set on fire: it seems almost impossible to kill anything with that.
Reducing energy is tactical, but really you want to be killing things. Perhaps if flamers effected alien upgrades somehow? It could be an effective counter to blink possibly?
Maybe it could also burn off bile bomb effects, and perhaps stop skulks leap and stop lerk spores. Then maybe we would see it as a support weapon in clan matches? Sort of reducing the take down power, but upping its support role somehow.
Also, it just doesn't feel right when you fire it. I am not sure whether you hit everything that enters the stream, but sometimes aliens fly by and it doesn't seem like they catch on fire even though they went through your stream. I'd definitely like to see something more volumetric that actually funnelled down vents perhaps double the distance (is this possible).
I always liked the idea of setting walls/ceilings/floors alight, as it could be used to delay aliens. Sort of like the molotovs from L4D2. CS:GO seems to have taken something from this as well, and it works quite effectively tactically speaking.
I think this would be perfectly reasonable, given its expense and how vulnerable it makes you.
God I hate cysts. Hate killing them, hate building them. Its like back when you used to have to create a drifter, and then use the drifter to create a building. Completely unnecessary, boring, and distracts from the main gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1975138:date=Sep 10 2012, 03:24 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 10 2012, 03:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe I'll make a mod when 1.0 hits. And by make a mod, I mean get someone who can code to make one for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I second this. Someone should test it out.
A marine weapon in NS has to be able to to large amounts of damage in a matter of seconds. (and yes, I count hitting with lots of LMG bullets large damage) The flamer simply does not have that. Even if it does, there is NO feedback upon actually hitting an alien - your screen is just covered in burning glory. This is a huge problem since half the alien team moves faster and better than you do.
On top of that, like other posters have said, the energy drain of a flamer is just pathetic now. Fades do not need more than a sliver of energy to do a hopping blink and escape. Lerks just bolt out of there. You might energy drain an onos or skulk, but if you do, they probably would just be dead anyway. Let's not forget aliens have adrenaline now.
Please. Buff flamethrower damage, or buff its energy drain again. Make it disable regeneration/healing for 3 seconds (THAT would make it oh-so useful). Do something, anything to make the most expensive marine weapon worthwhile.
Make it absolutely destroy armor... its now THEE support weapon and would encourage soft RPS mechanics needed for proper varied teams.
Also I like the idea that ironhorse mentioned above
I think this would be perfectly reasonable, given its expense and how vulnerable it makes you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being able to 'paint' the environment with fire that lasted a few seconds would make the flamethrower a very interesting weapon to use tactically. For example, you could use it to protect the flank of your assault team, carpeting the hallway behind them.
Seconded. I had an idea to make them liquid flamethrowers. It would allow for a lot more versatility. You could spray at angles(vents) and leave trails of flame.
Maybe as a pure utility secondary weapon that replaces the pistol, or as an alternative to the axe or welder. (so it neither needs to be viable as primary weapon(dps utility), nor must it be expensive, tech or pres wise)
Also make the GL even less effective against armor so skulks cant get spawncamped so easily with it.
This would make a lot of sense. Have it burn away armor, possibly even add a damage multiplier to things on fire. And of course, adrenaline shouldn't completely negate the energy drain.
I would also like to see it more effective for clearing out vents.
edit: After reading Koruyou's post below I realize how bad this idea was. Ignore the multiplier part. I still think the damage to armor thing can work though, but make it DoT so you would have to burn a while for the armor to be completely gone.
Sounds like awesome gameplay... :/
(when i read effective, i guess you mean more effective than the current flamethrower which would mean exactly what i described - and if its similar or weaker to not be op[especially for turtling] you end up with the same crap we already have just a tiny bit different in the mechanic)
In this builds, if fades hit the field, you quickly teched flamers. They couldn't kill a fade alone, but they forced the fade to flee.
As fade, you couldn't do more than one swipe and than blinking out. If you sticked in the fight against a flamer for longer, you risked to being forced to walk out of the battle. That was most likely a death sentence. Even the (in this builds) mighty onos could be stopped by flamers, because he could only attack 3 or 4 times when he was burning.
At this time flamers were used as repellent for higher lifeforms but were countered by skulks and lerk spikes. Adrenaline destroyed this and therefor the main-use of the flamer.
Before jumping from "never used" to "overpowered" we should just try to establish this old role of the flamer again. This is also very easy and not a big development task.
<u>Solution:</u>
- Instead of reducing the energy regeneration by a percentage. Reduce it to a fixed value. I don't know the exact numbers, but if you normally regenerate 10 energy per second (and with adrenaline 30 per second) The energy regen while burning should be set to 2 or 3 per second.
- Burning down bilebombs and the acid on buildings would be a nice addition.
<u>Do not:</u>
- drain energy. This is a death sentence for fades and lerks. They got no chance for escaping without energy. The flamer should make it very difficult to escape if you don't react quickly, but it should never be futile to engage a flamer-marine.
- increase the damage of the flamer. It is to easy to aim with the flamer so it should remain a support weapon.
@Runteh: The flamer does already burn lerk spores.
All lifeforms have to retreat for a little after mosts proper fights anyway - flamethrower or not. (and i would rather instagib the fade with another shotgunner than gamble on him failing to manage energy e.g. holding blink instead of tabbing it, staying way too long in combat, engaging with low energy etc.)
Bullets force fades to flee as well. (also most other weapons are cheaper to research and buy for pres)
Sure flamers are annoying, but i prefer seeing it over an additional shotgunner any day no matter which lifeform. (and as long as it doesnt drain energy i guess it will stay that way *edit: no devs, thats not an invitation to implement draining energy :P)
because that would be overpowered sherlock
you people need to learn to play the game instead of begging for overpowered content, flamethrower is fine
In this builds, if fades hit the field, you quickly teched flamers. They couldn't kill a fade alone, but they forced the fade to flee.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering the fade is at his best in harassing and sniping fleeing after one or two hits should already be part of his programme. Personally I laugh every time I see a flamer when playing fade, that is one less gun trying to fill me with lead across the room. As for adren, I much prefer celerity.
<!--quoteo(post=1976015:date=Sep 11 2012, 10:04 PM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Sep 11 2012, 10:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->because that would be overpowered sherlock
you people need to learn to play the game instead of begging for overpowered content, flamethrower is fine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, flamer sucks six kinds of ass.
you people need to learn to play the game instead of begging for overpowered content, flamethrower is fine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've yet to explain why. And the Flamethrower definitely is not fine. It sucks. The currently Flamethrower is barely worth 10 res, much less 30.
Right, that's how it is now. But in the builds where the energy regen was reduced severely, you had to gtfo when you see a flamer marine. He set you on fire and you could do 2 or 3 swipes and than you hadn't enough energy to blink out. One other marine with a LMG could follow and kill you without problems.
Again, slower energy regen has been tried and did work to counter the fade. energy drain would be overpowered.
But I like the idea of "flamethrower vs infestation". How about this: Flamethrower burns the ground and hinder the infestation to come back in this area for , lets say, 45 seconds.
That would be a nice new strategic option for the comm.
Edit:
I also like the idea that a flamethrower drains energy from aliens.