<!--quoteo(post=1976682:date=Sep 12 2012, 08:35 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Sep 12 2012, 08:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems that UWE has trolled us again with their tweets and the speed cap is actually higher as previous posters in this thread have pointed out. It would be nice if there was only one speedcap though, and not one for cele and one for non-cele.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why?
I think the two speed caps is good because it still gives incentive to using celerity.
Like, for example, if the speed cap was 12 for both. If I could reach 12 speed without celerity, then why should I ever use celerity over adrenaline?
I think the two speed caps is good because it still gives incentive to using celerity.
Like, for example, if the speed cap was 12 for both. If I could reach 12 speed without celerity, then why should I ever use celerity over adrenaline?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ya thats a good point -_-. I just thought it'd be nice from an intuitive point of view - so i could walljump up to celerity speeds if i was skilled enough. Did not factor in leap/adren in my thinking.
Leap throws the skulk at the following speeds: cara: 10 vanilla: 11.5 celerity + cara: 14 celerity: 15
Wall jumping after a leap will not keep you above the wall jumping cap for your setup. Spamming jump will help you maintain your speed for as long as possible, but it will still degrade.
For some comparison, LMG marines run at ~5 and sprint at ~6.
I think the two speed caps is good because it still gives incentive to using celerity.
Like, for example, if the speed cap was 12 for both. If I could reach 12 speed without celerity, then why should I ever use celerity over adrenaline?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if you could do it a lot faster and easier with celerity that might be a reason.
There's no point in walljumping, especially now with the speed cap. When you walljump you are giving up direction movement, sneaking, and wallclimbing which are bigger negatives than other games that actually have bhopping. You think people complain in quake that players can move too fast around the map? Or in the original NS or any GSRC game that bhopping gave aliens too much map control? It is balanced in both games without a hard speed cap. Celerity and leap change NOTHING. If they balance those around something that isn't useless such as actual bhop there's no way that they would be worse or not implementable. The whole reason around why walljump was put in doesn't make sense at all. UWE clearly just wanted something "different" as the reason they got rid of bhop was because it was too "difficult" for most people to wrap their head around, which is pretty funny actually especially since walljump doesn't stop this problem. Even though it's not actually a problem. Dumbing movement mechanics down doesn't help anybody, like I said it creates a problem where the game is made for a playerbase that does not exist, for people that want a challenging game in terms of aim and gameplay but with dumbed down elements like marines that break a leg every time they try jumping and having to sprint to move anywhere, not to mention this walljump thing. I know there are hard decisions to be made as developers but sometimes you just need to try to think it through and get creative or drop this whole helping new players out by dropping mechanics thing entirely, before things get really messy.
How can you honestly say there's no benefit in moving at 12 speed instead of 7 speed? Obviously you make tradeoffs for the speed, but it's still incredibly useful in certain situations. Is it a free gap closer? No. You can't charge a marine with wall jump, though with timing and practice it can allow you to close the gap better than flat out running or wall walking.
It's all situational. Sometimes it's better to wall jump at an opponent. Other times it's better to play a sneaky skulk. And sometimes you're better off aggressively showing yourself to stall marines.
I can understand why some people don't like wall jumping, why some people think bhopping is better, and why some people don't want any skill based movement at all. But to argue that the current wall jumping isn't useful is simply a plea from ignorance because you're not doing it right.
If it was possible to move at 12 speed <b>consistently</b> across appropriate parts of any map, yes there would be a benefit to it. Can you do that? Does it change gameplay positivity to a noticeable degree? Is it a better than or as good of a replacement for bhopping? Does being able to use it make you a noticeably better skulk? Is it easy to use, hard to master? The answer to all of these is sadly no, however for bhopping it is true in every case. Yes I can walljump, I've made videos about it, I've talked about it multiple times. It makes little difference in combat, outside of combat the only time when it means anything is when you are running around by yourself especially if you have leap or celerity, sometimes. Yes it gives you options but pratically any movement mechanic can, good or bad.
<!--quoteo(post=1976799:date=Sep 12 2012, 10:45 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Sep 12 2012, 10:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it was possible to move at 12 speed <b>consistently</b> across appropriate parts of any map, yes there would be a benefit to it. Can you do that? Does it change gameplay positivity to a noticeable degree? Is it a better than or as good of a replacement for bhopping? Does being able to use it make you a noticeably better skulk? Is it easy to use, hard to master? The answer to all of these is sadly no, however for bhopping it is true in every case. Yes I can walljump, I've made videos about it, I've talked about it multiple times. It makes little difference in combat, outside of combat the only time when it means anything is when you are running around by yourself especially if you have leap or celerity, sometimes. Yes it gives you options but pratically any movement mechanic can, good or bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a very biased opinion.
My answer to most of those based on b218 and b219 gameplay was partially yes or yes. I'm not sure if bhop would be better in this engine, but I doubt it it. It has already been thrown out as an idea, though, so the best bhop-enthusiants can hope for is to mold wall jumping into a better skill based movement system.
And, yes, there is a huge advantage to being able to wall jump efficiently. There is a huge difference between a skulk that can wall jump well and one that can't.
You post as if your the only one that can wall jump effectively. I can wall jump very effectively and find b217-b219 walljump useless. There is VERY select parts of the map I can get to 10-11.5 with walljump... It might be useful in these select players, but 99% of locations its useless.
BHOP can be used universally in all locations.. Paired with walljump, MAN think of the possibilities!
<!--quoteo(post=1976468:date=Sep 12 2012, 03:38 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Sep 12 2012, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976468"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One big problem with wall jumping is the discontinuous efficiency curve. If you jump say 0.2 second too late you get maybe 50% bonus, 0.1 second gives you 70% and 0.001s 100%. If you jump 0.00001 seconds too early however you get 0%.
This discontinuity and asymmetry makes it much more difficult to learn, and make it appear buggy. <a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Ideal_projectile_motion_for_different_angles.svg/512px-Ideal_projectile_motion_for_different_angles.svg.png" target="_blank">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm..._angles.svg.png</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am just guessing but they probably wanted to prevent people from binding jump to Mouse Wheel up or down to make timing the wall jump a lot easier and less skill based. Also programs like AutoHotkey were used by some players to make bunny hopping much easier. You can create a script that makes it input a lot of extremely fast key or mouse presses taking a lot of the skill out of doing it.
What do you mean by "thrown out as an idea". As in the developers or playtesters being too cynical or full of themselves to test it? I've never a single mention of a time when a build had properly put in bhopping and I've been following it ever since UWE posted their first youtube video. If there was an advantage, it would have come up by now because some of the "best walljumpers" already don't use it to the full potential because there hasn't been a point in time where mastering it would mean you can do something different in actual gameplay that other skulks can't. Waiting to see if this changes over time isn't worth it because I don't see how they could fix all the bad things about it and have it be even close to as good as a basic bhop implementation would be.
<!--quoteo(post=1976817:date=Sep 12 2012, 11:26 PM:name=Mr R0YB0T 0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr R0YB0T 0 @ Sep 12 2012, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am just guessing but they probably wanted to prevent people from binding jump to Mouse Wheel up or down to make timing the wall jump a lot easier and less skill based. Also programs like AutoHotkey were used by some players to make bunny hopping much easier. You can create a script that makes it input a lot of extremely fast key or mouse presses taking a lot of the skill out of doing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quake (as an example) doesn't have people that jump really well because of macros or binding the jump button to something else. It doesn't take so much skill with a high ceiling because of some timing of the spacebar. I doubt UWE devs understand it either. You can't script skill based movement.
<!--quoteo(post=1976638:date=Sep 13 2012, 01:10 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Sep 13 2012, 01:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think walljump as a concept is as flawed as some people are making out (probably biased a bit) although the problems with props on walls, needing to ramp up speed, and timing/angle are there. Granted the current implementation isn't as good as it was in alot of the much older builds imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think I'm even in a position to judge how good or bad the walljump is with the little hours I've put to NS2 regularly. However, I can't say it wouldn't be quite disappointing if people can't find nearly any benefits it has to the iconic system it was supposed to replace.
I had already accepted that the bhop is going to be replaced with something else, probably something less interesting for me. Still, it kind of stings if there isn't practically any gain in it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bhop is not good and it never was, there is a reason that every game made after 1998 took it out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just not a good reason, unfortunately.
<!--quoteo(post=1976840:date=Sep 13 2012, 12:19 AM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Sep 13 2012, 12:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bhop is not good and it never was, there is a reason that every game made after 1998 took it out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
except they didn't. here, watch me list a bunch of games in like 5 seconds <ul><li>quake 3</li><li>quake 4</li><li>warsow</li><li>a bunch of unreal tournament games</li><li><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->*I need to be nicer*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->*I'm not a moderator*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li></ul> <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->^ fixed that - Kouji San<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo(post=1976821:date=Sep 12 2012, 11:30 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Sep 12 2012, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976821"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quake (as an example) doesn't have people that jump really well because of macros or binding the jump button to something else. It doesn't take so much skill with a high ceiling because of some timing of the spacebar. I doubt UWE devs understand it either. You can't script skill based movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Strafe Jumping in the <b>Quake </b>series is much easier than in NS1 or either of the Half Life games. In the Quake series you just let go of jump in mid air and hold onto it again before you landed and it automatically jumped as soon as you hit the ground. It is referred to as <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_hopping#In_Quake_engine_and_GoldSrc_engine_games" target="_blank">pogo-stick</a> jumping.
In the <b>Half Life </b>series you have to press jump exactly when you hit the ground which by itself takes timing and practice. Using a script like Autohotkey makes it even easier to do than in the Quake series because you can just hold the jump button down once you get a bit of momentum. NS1 used to have bunny hopping scripts you could use but they were disabled some time during its lifetime. For both series you still need to get the movement down which is basically a modified figure 8.
For the record<b> I would not mind trying the Quake style pogo jumping for Skulks</b> along with removing the penalty when you hit jump too early of course. It would make it easier for players to perform while also taking skill to master as it does in Quake.
Having to precisely time your jumps while doing the movements is why Autohotkey and other methods of repeating the button presses are used in HL and not in Quake.
Maybe it's just me, but I've never seen anyone use walljumping to do something interesting in combat. I've never seen a skulk kill a marine because of walljumping skills. I only ever see it used for a small speed boost while travelling the map. I don't know why UWE didn't do the same thing that fortress forever did, making bhop easier for everyone but still part of the game. Maybe ns:spark will have it...
<!--quoteo(post=1976858:date=Sep 13 2012, 12:48 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 13 2012, 12:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976858"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe it's just me, but I've never seen anyone use walljumping to do something interesting in combat. I've never seen a skulk kill a marine because of walljumping skills. I only ever see it used for a small speed boost while travelling the map. I don't know why UWE didn't do the same thing that fortress forever did, making bhop easier for everyone but still part of the game. Maybe ns:spark will have it...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's very useful. skulks leap into wall, store momentum, wall climb around a little bit, jump off with 90% of their leap momentum still intact. it's very jarring to marine tracking to have the 2 speeds (wallwalking vs leaping) so disjointed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One big problem with wall jumping is the discontinuous efficiency curve. If you jump say 0.2 second too late you get maybe 50% bonus, 0.1 second gives you 70% and 0.001s 100%. If you jump 0.00001 seconds too early however you get 0%.
This discontinuity and asymmetry makes it much more difficult to learn, and make it appear buggy. <a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm..._angles.svg.png" target="_blank">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm..._angles.svg.png</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1976817:date=Sep 13 2012, 04:26 AM:name=Mr R0YB0T 0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr R0YB0T 0 @ Sep 13 2012, 04:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am just guessing but they probably wanted to prevent people from binding jump to Mouse Wheel up or down to make timing the wall jump a lot easier and less skill based. Also programs like AutoHotkey were used by some players to make bunny hopping much easier. You can create a script that makes it input a lot of extremely fast key or mouse presses taking a lot of the skill out of doing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think so, it wouldn't make the timing much easier or spammable, but more consistent and symmetric; jumping too early would be as bad has jumping too late. The main problem when implementing it is that you need to predict the time the skulk will attach to the wall to measure how much too early you are jumping. It's not so hard to measure the distance to the wall in the velocity direction and take that as a criteria, but with the walls being so convoluted in NS2 and limiting performances it might be hard to make it consistent.
For the view direction I would just take the pitch (how much up you're looking with the mouse) and put a gaussian around 45 deg.
Quake 3 had some of THE best movement of any game ever made. Anyone who has played it for any real length of time can attest to this. It is no coincidence that game had bunny hopping. There is absolutely nothing wrong with bunny hopping as a movement mechanic. It creates depth when moving through the map and adds a higher skill ceiling to play which is essential. As it is I find skulk incredibly unrewarding to play. The movement is boring and frankly I feel slow as a skulk. The meta game between skulk vs marine is incredibly dull atm.
A good wall jump that allows you to increase velocity could remedy this, if done right. But it is so incredibly weak atm and we are so close to release that I do not have faith in wall jump being done well. The other fact is that currently the devs seem so hostile to bunny hopping has me concerned. FPS players who enjoy a higher skill ceiling by and large love bunny hopping for good reason. I do hope the reason they are against bunny hopping is not due to fear of intimidation to new players. The game needs depth and skulk atm has zero depth. Furthermore a melee only model for doing damage as a skulk should help prevent ridiculously good bhoppers from dominating the game too strongly while still allowing new players to contribute as skulk.
Games with air control bug me as you cant jump off a building and end up 30 feet to your left unless you aim there to start (unless you have wings). How would a skulk be able to control a mid air leap? Answer: it shouldnt as it doesnt have wings/flaps so when a skulk leaps it should be set in the direction it leaped at with maybe a slim few degrees of control.
Bunnyhopping isnt exactly 'skill' based movement, I mean sure it takes a few tries to figure it out but once you know it its easy. I think we all have to remember that this is not ns1 with new graphics. If you want to bunnyhop go play around in any of the multitude of games that have it, but UWE clearly left it out because they wanted to so its probly time to get over it and move on. It sounds alot like "<i>oh my they took away my favorite toy and now I will qq until they gimme it back because yea i need to bunnyhop as a skulk to make it feel challenging even though I have 300000 hrs of NS1 bunnyhopping</i>." Sounds ridiculous doesnt it?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but UWE clearly left it out because they wanted to so its probly time to get over it and move on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They should use the reasoning they used to remove bunny hopping to remove wall jumping as well, I can't imagine how you can consistently remove one and not the other.
<!--quoteo(post=1977125:date=Sep 13 2012, 01:34 PM:name=spaceturtle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spaceturtle @ Sep 13 2012, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->..There is absolutely nothing wrong with bunny hopping as a movement mechanic. It creates depth when moving through the map and adds a higher skill ceiling to play which is essential.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> in principle, this is true. but it has also been historically nerfed in other games (was considered a cheat, too strong etc.) still it has been a standard for so long - there really is nothing wong with the mechanics of it.
<!--quoteo(post=1977125:date=Sep 13 2012, 01:34 PM:name=spaceturtle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spaceturtle @ Sep 13 2012, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do hope the reason they are against bunny hopping is not due to fear of intimidation to new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think there is some of this. But it may just be wanting to have something unique and new.
wall jump is splitting the difference - gives some skill based speed benefit that has somewhat limited use in combat. speed cap also helps with the skill gap dominance.
that said, fade dominance of new players is more of an issue than a bunny hopping skulk would be.
<!--quoteo(post=1976816:date=Sep 12 2012, 11:25 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Sep 12 2012, 11:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You post as if your the only one that can wall jump effectively. I can wall jump very effectively and find b217-b219 walljump useless. There is VERY select parts of the map I can get to 10-11.5 with walljump... It might be useful in these select players, but 99% of locations its useless.
BHOP can be used universally in all locations.. Paired with walljump, MAN think of the possibilities!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. I don't post like that. I've seen quite a few people wall jump effectively. Clearly you're not if you only find it useful in 1% of the map.
I'm not sure being able to use bhop universally compared to walljump's selectively is a necessary advantage. You can still use wall jumping to do <i>something</i> in nearly every area of every map. It's more effective in some rooms/areas than others and I'm ok with that. The same way that marines are more effective in some areas than others or ambushing is more effective in rooms with nooks or vents. There's nothing inherently wrong with a mechanic being more useful in certain areas than others.
<!--quoteo(post=1976821:date=Sep 12 2012, 11:30 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Sep 12 2012, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976821"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you mean by "thrown out as an idea". As in the developers or playtesters being too cynical or full of themselves to test it? I've never a single mention of a time when a build had properly put in bhopping and I've been following it ever since UWE posted their first youtube video. If there was an advantage, it would have come up by now because some of the "best walljumpers" already don't use it to the full potential because there hasn't been a point in time where mastering it would mean you can do something different in actual gameplay that other skulks can't. Waiting to see if this changes over time isn't worth it because I don't see how they could fix all the bad things about it and have it be even close to as good as a basic bhop implementation would be.
Quake (as an example) doesn't have people that jump really well because of macros or binding the jump button to something else. It doesn't take so much skill with a high ceiling because of some timing of the spacebar. I doubt UWE devs understand it either. You can't script skill based movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody has mastered wall jumping because it changes every 2 weeks. And yes, mastering it does mean you do something different. How about closing the distance in half the time it would take you to run up to the marine? You're flat out more effective, especially early game, if you're better at wall jumping.
I think macros/scripts should be actively squashed by developers. Frequently movement based systems succumb to macros or scripts such as "hold space for 50 inputs of space per second to minimize ground time." I think some of the other games had the right idea with allowing players to hold spacebar and have it immediately jump for them. Either that or they should bring back the movement speed penalty for pressing space while you're still in the air to force timed jumps instead of spammed ones.
I never played NS1, but I've played plenty of games that had bunny hopping in (including the big ones like the quakes). I like wall jumping in NS2. I am glad bunny hopping is out. Here's why; Imagine a bunch of aliens running down a corridor at you. You wouldn't see them all bouncing up and down, and if for some reason you did (maybe they're excited to see you?) you'd imagine that it would slow them down somewhat.
Okay I just realised, realism is out the window anyway, how on earth do skulks stick to walls and ceilings anyway?.... BUT I still favour wall jumping and no bunny hopping to any other combination. Bunny hopping is still kind of retarded in my mind to a game that's going for anything but UN-realism (see what I did there? ehehe), and wall jumping is less retarded, and it's good to have some skill-based movement extra.
I'm honestly rather surprised by this conversation. While I agree that it does take a degree of skill (in some cases) to take advantage of movement physics to achieve wall jumping and bunny hopping (in whatever game you might be playing), but when I left the Competitive gaming community, these sorts of things were almost universally frowned upon.
People were banned from public servers if they were bunny hopping, they even changed the movement controls between 1.04 and 2.0 in an attempt to eliminate it. Though it only made it more attractive for people to achieve it through scripting, as it wasn't something you could totally build out of the goldsrc engine.
At any rate, I'm fairly neutral on the subject myself. I really couldn't care one way or the other. But I don't fully understand the argument that building bunny hopping or wall jumping somehow makes movement "better". Yeah, I guess it gives you more flexibility...but in the past it was an exploit, not a feature.
I guess my point is, sure it can be useful, but why rely on a crutch?
Comments
Why?
I think the two speed caps is good because it still gives incentive to using celerity.
Like, for example, if the speed cap was 12 for both. If I could reach 12 speed without celerity, then why should I ever use celerity over adrenaline?
I think the two speed caps is good because it still gives incentive to using celerity.
Like, for example, if the speed cap was 12 for both. If I could reach 12 speed without celerity, then why should I ever use celerity over adrenaline?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ya thats a good point -_-. I just thought it'd be nice from an intuitive point of view - so i could walljump up to celerity speeds if i was skilled enough. Did not factor in leap/adren in my thinking.
Cara(scales) running: 6.45 - 7
Vanilla running: 7
celerity + cara running: 8.4
celerity running:9.1
cara wall jump: ~11.5
vanilla wall jump: ~12
celerity + cara wall jump: ~13
celerity wall jump: ~14
Leap throws the skulk at the following speeds:
cara: 10
vanilla: 11.5
celerity + cara: 14
celerity: 15
Wall jumping after a leap will not keep you above the wall jumping cap for your setup. Spamming jump will help you maintain your speed for as long as possible, but it will still degrade.
For some comparison, LMG marines run at ~5 and sprint at ~6.
<!--quoteo(post=1976705:date=Sep 12 2012, 08:49 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 12 2012, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why?
I think the two speed caps is good because it still gives incentive to using celerity.
Like, for example, if the speed cap was 12 for both. If I could reach 12 speed without celerity, then why should I ever use celerity over adrenaline?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if you could do it a lot faster and easier with celerity that might be a reason.
It's all situational. Sometimes it's better to wall jump at an opponent. Other times it's better to play a sneaky skulk. And sometimes you're better off aggressively showing yourself to stall marines.
I can understand why some people don't like wall jumping, why some people think bhopping is better, and why some people don't want any skill based movement at all. But to argue that the current wall jumping isn't useful is simply a plea from ignorance because you're not doing it right.
That's a very biased opinion.
My answer to most of those based on b218 and b219 gameplay was partially yes or yes. I'm not sure if bhop would be better in this engine, but I doubt it it. It has already been thrown out as an idea, though, so the best bhop-enthusiants can hope for is to mold wall jumping into a better skill based movement system.
And, yes, there is a huge advantage to being able to wall jump efficiently. There is a huge difference between a skulk that can wall jump well and one that can't.
BHOP can be used universally in all locations.. Paired with walljump, MAN think of the possibilities!
This discontinuity and asymmetry makes it much more difficult to learn, and make it appear buggy.
<a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Ideal_projectile_motion_for_different_angles.svg/512px-Ideal_projectile_motion_for_different_angles.svg.png" target="_blank">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm..._angles.svg.png</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am just guessing but they probably wanted to prevent people from binding jump to Mouse Wheel up or down to make timing the wall jump a lot easier and less skill based.
Also programs like AutoHotkey were used by some players to make bunny hopping much easier. You can create a script that makes it input a lot of extremely fast key or mouse presses taking a lot of the skill out of doing it.
<!--quoteo(post=1976817:date=Sep 12 2012, 11:26 PM:name=Mr R0YB0T 0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr R0YB0T 0 @ Sep 12 2012, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am just guessing but they probably wanted to prevent people from binding jump to Mouse Wheel up or down to make timing the wall jump a lot easier and less skill based.
Also programs like AutoHotkey were used by some players to make bunny hopping much easier. You can create a script that makes it input a lot of extremely fast key or mouse presses taking a lot of the skill out of doing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quake (as an example) doesn't have people that jump really well because of macros or binding the jump button to something else. It doesn't take so much skill with a high ceiling because of some timing of the spacebar. I doubt UWE devs understand it either. You can't script skill based movement.
I don't think I'm even in a position to judge how good or bad the walljump is with the little hours I've put to NS2 regularly. However, I can't say it wouldn't be quite disappointing if people can't find nearly any benefits it has to the iconic system it was supposed to replace.
I had already accepted that the bhop is going to be replaced with something else, probably something less interesting for me. Still, it kind of stings if there isn't practically any gain in it.
Just not a good reason, unfortunately.
except they didn't.
here, watch me list a bunch of games in like 5 seconds
<ul><li>quake 3</li><li>quake 4</li><li>warsow</li><li>a bunch of unreal tournament games</li><li><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->*I need to be nicer*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->*I'm not a moderator*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li></ul>
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->^ fixed that - Kouji San<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Strafe Jumping in the <b>Quake </b>series is much easier than in NS1 or either of the Half Life games.
In the Quake series you just let go of jump in mid air and hold onto it again before you landed and it automatically jumped as soon as you hit the ground. It is referred to as <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_hopping#In_Quake_engine_and_GoldSrc_engine_games" target="_blank">pogo-stick</a> jumping.
In the <b>Half Life </b>series you have to press jump exactly when you hit the ground which by itself takes timing and practice. Using a script like Autohotkey makes it even easier to do than in the Quake series because you can just hold the jump button down once you get a bit of momentum.
NS1 used to have bunny hopping scripts you could use but they were disabled some time during its lifetime.
For both series you still need to get the movement down which is basically a modified figure 8.
For the record<b> I would not mind trying the Quake style pogo jumping for Skulks</b> along with removing the penalty when you hit jump too early of course.
It would make it easier for players to perform while also taking skill to master as it does in Quake.
Having to precisely time your jumps while doing the movements is why Autohotkey and other methods of repeating the button presses are used in HL and not in Quake.
it's very useful. skulks leap into wall, store momentum, wall climb around a little bit, jump off with 90% of their leap momentum still intact. it's very jarring to marine tracking to have the 2 speeds (wallwalking vs leaping) so disjointed.
This discontinuity and asymmetry makes it much more difficult to learn, and make it appear buggy.
<a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm..._angles.svg.png" target="_blank">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm..._angles.svg.png</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1976817:date=Sep 13 2012, 04:26 AM:name=Mr R0YB0T 0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr R0YB0T 0 @ Sep 13 2012, 04:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am just guessing but they probably wanted to prevent people from binding jump to Mouse Wheel up or down to make timing the wall jump a lot easier and less skill based.
Also programs like AutoHotkey were used by some players to make bunny hopping much easier. You can create a script that makes it input a lot of extremely fast key or mouse presses taking a lot of the skill out of doing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think so, it wouldn't make the timing much easier or spammable, but more consistent and symmetric; jumping too early would be as bad has jumping too late. The main problem when implementing it is that you need to predict the time the skulk will attach to the wall to measure how much too early you are jumping. It's not so hard to measure the distance to the wall in the velocity direction and take that as a criteria, but with the walls being so convoluted in NS2 and limiting performances it might be hard to make it consistent.
For the view direction I would just take the pitch (how much up you're looking with the mouse) and put a gaussian around 45 deg.
A good wall jump that allows you to increase velocity could remedy this, if done right. But it is so incredibly weak atm and we are so close to release that I do not have faith in wall jump being done well. The other fact is that currently the devs seem so hostile to bunny hopping has me concerned. FPS players who enjoy a higher skill ceiling by and large love bunny hopping for good reason. I do hope the reason they are against bunny hopping is not due to fear of intimidation to new players. The game needs depth and skulk atm has zero depth. Furthermore a melee only model for doing damage as a skulk should help prevent ridiculously good bhoppers from dominating the game too strongly while still allowing new players to contribute as skulk.
Bunnyhopping isnt exactly 'skill' based movement, I mean sure it takes a few tries to figure it out but once you know it its easy. I think we all have to remember that this is not ns1 with new graphics. If you want to bunnyhop go play around in any of the multitude of games that have it, but UWE clearly left it out because they wanted to so its probly time to get over it and move on. It sounds alot like "<i>oh my they took away my favorite toy and now I will qq until they gimme it back because yea i need to bunnyhop as a skulk to make it feel challenging even though I have 300000 hrs of NS1 bunnyhopping</i>." Sounds ridiculous doesnt it?
They should use the reasoning they used to remove bunny hopping to remove wall jumping as well, I can't imagine how you can consistently remove one and not the other.
in principle, this is true. but it has also been historically nerfed in other games (was considered a cheat, too strong etc.)
still it has been a standard for so long - there really is nothing wong with the mechanics of it.
<!--quoteo(post=1977125:date=Sep 13 2012, 01:34 PM:name=spaceturtle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spaceturtle @ Sep 13 2012, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do hope the reason they are against bunny hopping is not due to fear of intimidation to new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think there is some of this. But it may just be wanting to have something unique and new.
wall jump is splitting the difference - gives some skill based speed benefit that has somewhat limited use in combat. speed cap also helps with the skill gap dominance.
that said, fade dominance of new players is more of an issue than a bunny hopping skulk would be.
BHOP can be used universally in all locations.. Paired with walljump, MAN think of the possibilities!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. I don't post like that. I've seen quite a few people wall jump effectively. Clearly you're not if you only find it useful in 1% of the map.
I'm not sure being able to use bhop universally compared to walljump's selectively is a necessary advantage. You can still use wall jumping to do <i>something</i> in nearly every area of every map. It's more effective in some rooms/areas than others and I'm ok with that. The same way that marines are more effective in some areas than others or ambushing is more effective in rooms with nooks or vents. There's nothing inherently wrong with a mechanic being more useful in certain areas than others.
Quake (as an example) doesn't have people that jump really well because of macros or binding the jump button to something else. It doesn't take so much skill with a high ceiling because of some timing of the spacebar. I doubt UWE devs understand it either. You can't script skill based movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody has mastered wall jumping because it changes every 2 weeks. And yes, mastering it does mean you do something different. How about closing the distance in half the time it would take you to run up to the marine? You're flat out more effective, especially early game, if you're better at wall jumping.
I think macros/scripts should be actively squashed by developers. Frequently movement based systems succumb to macros or scripts such as "hold space for 50 inputs of space per second to minimize ground time." I think some of the other games had the right idea with allowing players to hold spacebar and have it immediately jump for them. Either that or they should bring back the movement speed penalty for pressing space while you're still in the air to force timed jumps instead of spammed ones.
Okay I just realised, realism is out the window anyway, how on earth do skulks stick to walls and ceilings anyway?.... BUT I still favour wall jumping and no bunny hopping to any other combination. Bunny hopping is still kind of retarded in my mind to a game that's going for anything but UN-realism (see what I did there? ehehe), and wall jumping is less retarded, and it's good to have some skill-based movement extra.
People were banned from public servers if they were bunny hopping, they even changed the movement controls between 1.04 and 2.0 in an attempt to eliminate it. Though it only made it more attractive for people to achieve it through scripting, as it wasn't something you could totally build out of the goldsrc engine.
At any rate, I'm fairly neutral on the subject myself. I really couldn't care one way or the other. But I don't fully understand the argument that building bunny hopping or wall jumping somehow makes movement "better". Yeah, I guess it gives you more flexibility...but in the past it was an exploit, not a feature.
I guess my point is, sure it can be useful, but why rely on a crutch?