If it's going to stay, maybe set the health of when it activates a little bit higher. So it's handy to escape with but a disadvantage if you want to hang around and get a few more hits/kills in.
Yes, you can take the argument to other upgrades, and it sorta applies.
However, "using" regeneration requires player effort and planning. If you want to 'use' feign death, you stand in somebody's line of sight and get shot a bunch of times. If you want to 'use' regeneration, you get OUT of their line of sight (more likely to happen if you make it happen than if you wait for them to back off and play nice)
It's not necessarily about getting 'tricked' either. I'm totally okay with mechanics like cloaking (and I still love the way NS1 did it), but feigning death is different. Especially in NS2 where it just triggers for you in combat without doing much of anything.
It's clearly meant to be an NS2 retooling of redemption from NS1, but redemption works much, much better. You know the person has been redeemed (I think there's a sound/visual cue?), and it's never guaranteed to work (rather, it's a series of dice rolls that never stops being tremendously risky until you die or teleport back). It's also strictly simpler - easier to change it, easier to get legitimate feedback about it, easier to explain to new players. Redemption is fine, and it doesn't need to be overcomplicated by this idea of 'feigning death' which is blatantly stolen from the TF games. Why not just put redemption in if a mechanic like this is desired?
Remember NS1 there was a similar alien perk which saved your life. If you were very low on health and survived a few seconds you'd be teleported back to hive. This made escaping out of tight/deadly situations handy without making them really any harder to kill.
<!--quoteo(post=1976910:date=Sep 12 2012, 11:38 PM:name=Turbine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Turbine @ Sep 12 2012, 11:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976910"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think it should be kept or removed.
Remember NS1 there was a similar alien perk which saved your life. If you were very low on health and survived a few seconds you'd be teleported back to hive. This made escaping out of tight/deadly situations handy without making them really any harder to kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's Redemption, which has been a point of contention for the past few pages.
I believe the real cause of feign death being hated is, that it's cheap. The player puts effort into killing an enemy and (in chaotic situations) this effort is nullified by feign death. The marine player feels robbed of that kill without him being able to do something against this and (even worse) without having the feeling, that the enemy player did something better than him. You wasn't tricked by a better player with a difficult move. You were simply robbed of the kill without your opponent being better than you. And that's why redemption is as bad as feign right now. And was hated in NS1.
If a spy stabs me in TF2, I can always say it was my fault not watching my back. Also he had to find a save place before the cloak timer runs out. He had to chose the right moment to attack and so on and so on. It was skill involved by the spy. Feign Death needs no skill. That makes it cheap and therefor frustrating for the marine player.
The whole problem is, that feign death is a cheap life saver. Something like that is always bad in a multiplayer game. What we need is an upgrade, that you can use with skill and that is counter-able. So again, the first step to make feign death a fun mechanic is to allow the player to interact with it. Without interaction you never need any skill for it. <ul><li>Let the player decide when to come back to live.</li><li>Allow the marine to kill the alien by shooting long enough at the corpse. (At least 20 to 30 LMG bullets.)</li><li>Make feign activating at 40% instead of 10% max health. (So it isn't that useful as life saver, but for situational ambushes.)</li></ul>
Some good points here. IMO for feint death to be fair, balanced and not frustrating a good player should be able to kill the player who feints death 95% of the time. If they can only kill you 50% of the time then it's just like a get out of jail free card, no skill needed just get the upgrade and blink away to safety. If you get away it should be because the marine made a mistake. But if they can kill you most of the time then the upgrade is useless, because it will only ever benefit you in a very small number of cases and therefore it will be very rarely used over the other upgrades and may as well be removed.
I think it is only really a problem for fades, and maybe skulks. The rest of the classes it has very little use and most of the time you just die when trying to escape. The fade can just blink away easily and get away most of the time. The skulk ends up just suiciding and can sometimes get an extra bite in and kill you. To me that is just a frustrating mechanic.
as i mentioned in my previous post, it doesn't really feel satisfying (neither as rine and alien) and i can agree with other people here that the reason is that it involves close to no skill. so how about making it an active ability? you push a button and pretend to die as soon as you get hit (if you are not hit, it will be deactivated again after a few seconds). this would require great timing and situational awareness. not sure how useful and fun it would be, that seems very difficult to estimate without testing it for a while.
there is another problem i recently noticed: while respawning, you can actually get cloaked by a shade before respawning! then you just stand there next to all the marines and regenerate, also recharging your feign death...
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
yea if a quickly timed button press initialized it then it becomes more skillful... because if you just pretended to die at the exact second you <i>werent </i>being shot at, the marine would know whats up.
People know that there is an unhittable invisible alien walking around, when they didn't get +5, but in some situations it is just impossible to finish it.
E.g. when you kill him during escape. Maybe he was just before a cornor but you managed to pistol kill him 50 meters away. You didn't get the points, so you know he will use his invincible mode to walk around the cornor, where you can't reach him anymore.
Feign death doesn't fit in the shade tree. It doesn't trick you, it's just frustrating you and I don't see how it could be tweaked to be fair and useful for all aliens at all stages of the game.
It don't has to be an active ability. Let it kick in at 40% of max health. That makes it useless as a get-out-of-jail-card. And will only be used to actively create ambush-trick scenarios. If activated, you just need to move / bite to reanimate your corpse again. (See my last post, for more detail.) Than it would be not more of an active ability as cloak is. Sure, there should be no clue that you are feigning so we need the +5. It just needs some skill involved. And scrap this get-out-of-jail-crap. Such a mechanic is always frustrating in a multiplayer game. It is just as bad as a mechanic that only tricks / works on new players.
People know that there is an unhittable invisible alien walking around, when they didn't get +5, but in some situations it is just impossible to finish it.
E.g. when you kill him during escape. Maybe he was just before a cornor but you managed to pistol kill him 50 meters away. You didn't get the points, so you know he will use his invincible mode to walk around the cornor, where you can't reach him anymore.
Feign death doesn't fit in the shade tree. It doesn't trick you, it's just frustrating you and I don't see how it could be tweaked to be fair and useful for all aliens at all stages of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You would be surprised, at least once a night I'm explaining to my teammates how to tell if a kill is real or not... You might be underestimating the amount of new players, and after 1.0 it will be even worse. I think the major issue is in team situations when you have multiple marines shooting a fade, if you don't get a +5 /10/15 it isn't that suspicious if you feel like your teammate got the killing blow. The looking at the kill streams in the top corner to identify the player getting the kill is an ability that veteran players have but people new to fps don't do that... There is simply to much going on for them already on the screen without the need for further distractions.
I think either it should be removed, OR it shouldn't show up as a kill in the stream at all... this looking for a +5/10/15 thing is stupid.
But I agree it should be dropped for something else, redemption or focus come to mind.
Also are we not going to discuss how bad cloaking is in ns2? When you aren't moving is the only time you are even close to invisible... Even shift walking is noticeable by even the most retarded of marines. Cloaking should be like it was in NS1.
It's easier to do away with feint death than try to alter it (which a lot of the ideas in this thread will just completely butcher the upgrade). Making it an ability will just make it too much of a pain in the ass to use in the midst of combat that, again, makes it easier just to remove the upgrade as a whole and replace it with something else.
<!--quoteo(post=1977086:date=Sep 13 2012, 12:12 PM:name=darkfiction)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (darkfiction @ Sep 13 2012, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977086"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also are we not going to discuss how bad cloaking is in ns2? When you aren't moving is the only time you are even close to invisible... Even shift walking is noticeable by even the most retarded of marines. Cloaking should be like it was in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'd be surprised how many times people have brought up how cloaking is bad in ns2, but it is always a crap shoot to get anything changed it seems. I suggested melding silence and camouflage together (and so have other people), but good luck.
<!--quoteo(post=1977070:date=Sep 13 2012, 08:32 AM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Sep 13 2012, 08:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Feign death doesn't fit in the shade tree. It doesn't trick you, it's just frustrating you and I don't see how it could be tweaked to be fair and useful for all aliens at all stages of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok so no active ability i guess. any other idea how to make it a bit more skill based? i kinda like the idea of staying a corpse until you move/act. requires no active buttons and still does require good timing, especially if your corpse can still be shot to kill you. this requires less buggy ragdolls i think. as a marine, you have to evaluate if it's worth spending that extra clip ammo and time, especially during combat. but it is less of a roulette against leap or blink.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let it kick in at 40% of max health.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> imo that could actually result in a downgrade in several situations. e.g. you are attacking with a bunch of teammates and suddenly you are removed from combat for a while...
<!--quoteo(post=1977246:date=Sep 14 2012, 12:19 AM:name=Laosh'Ra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laosh'Ra @ Sep 14 2012, 12:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977246"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->imo that could actually result in a downgrade in several situations. e.g. you are attacking with a bunch of teammates and suddenly you are removed from combat for a while...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah that is the point. If you chose this upgrade, you should play in this upgrades style. (Like you play different when having silence.) I just hate that Feign is used as life saver. Instead of a skillful ambush-tool. Letting it kick in at 40% makes it useless as life saver. It creates an incentive to use it to really trick marines instead of a cheap way to stay alive longer.
Even in your example of the group of aliens it could be useful. You attack first, get feign kicking in, the marines reload and the other aliens storm in. As soon as the marines focus the aliens that are dancing around them, you come back to life and help attacking them while they are not looking in your direction anymore.
It just creates new ambush-opportunities. And scraps this "I betray you of your kill"-mechanic.
People know that there is an unhittable invisible alien walking around, when they didn't get +5, but in some situations it is just impossible to finish it.
E.g. when you kill him during escape. Maybe he was just before a cornor but you managed to pistol kill him 50 meters away. You didn't get the points, so you know he will use his invincible mode to walk around the cornor, where you can't reach him anymore.
Feign death doesn't fit in the shade tree. It doesn't trick you, it's just frustrating you and I don't see how it could be tweaked to be fair and useful for all aliens at all stages of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT, you can't be tricked by it! But alot of times you won't get the Alien anyway because, beside the Lerk/Gorge/Onos, they are to fast that you can land the last shot.
Also a BBing gorge that gets killed just before a building goes down but manages to get 1-2 VB out after feint ended can deside a whole game!
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Bicsum you missed the previous page i think. The topic moved on with the idea of "if deign death was fixed" from it's bugs.. would it still work?
It would definitely fit the shade tree if it was able to trick you. For ideas on how it could work with some tweaks (After bug fixes) just see this thread.. theres some great ideas.
I am all up for getting rid but improve shade hive choices then silence is kwl but the slow down on camo makes it useless,,, also how come everyone moans about feign death but at least if the fade dies a skulk can't spwan and jump in his body( ref to being able to pick up others guns! lol)
People need a reasonable chance to take down an alien who used feign death... and currently fades get away a little too easily using blink. Even when I'm prepared for it they usually blink away without a problem. Also you cant rely on the kill message anymore since it shows a kill eitherway since this patch.
Maybe if we start thinking about feign death differently we will realise how bad of a mechanic it is and stop trying to 'make it work'.
<b>What is the utility of feign death?</b> <i>-2nd chance on killing blow to escape and come back again -2nd chance on killing blow to finish off your enemy with a last attack</i> <b>What determines the size of this utility?</b> <i>-Balance numbers (fixed) -Experience (not skill) of marine (variable). This is always going to be the case regardless of implementation</i> <b>What is the payoff?</b> <i>-Anywhere up to 75pres</i>
<b>So can we balance feign death such that it has a flat risk-adjusted utility across experience levels? </b> <i>no.</i> <b>Why is this a problem?</b> <i>It will never see use in competitive because its overall utility must be low. If its utility was high/balanced in competitive, it will be even higher/imbalanced in less experienced pub play. Also, when it does pay off in competitive, it rewards the lesser skilled player with a <b>huge</b> bonus. Consider also that the main viability upgrades are in different tech trees so you arn't trading off lifeform strength by taking feign.</i>
=================================== Now lets consider the fun aspect which is equally important.
<b>Who derives fun from this mechanic paying off?</b> <i>-People who make mistakes</i> Who doesn't when this mechanic pays off? <i>-People who played better than their opponent</i>
*edit* so whats my point? How 'easy' or 'hard' you make it for the marine to kill a feigning alien is moot.
<!--quoteo(post=1977743:date=Sep 14 2012, 08:30 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 14 2012, 08:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977743"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bicsum you missed the previous page i think. The topic moved on with the idea of "if deign death was fixed" from it's bugs.. would it still work?
It would definitely fit the shade tree if it was able to trick you. For ideas on how it could work with some tweaks (After bug fixes) just see this thread.. theres some great ideas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read the thread and none of the suggestions would make it any better.
Feign Death just doesn't fit into the whole alien upgrade system.
All the other upgrades (except hypermutation) give you some kind of combat bonus, which changes your play style. FD is basically a backup for your personal resources, which is highly depending on luck to work.
What options do we have to make it better?
1. a pressable button -> doesn't work, since upgrades are passive 2. being the dead ragdoll -> when the marines realize the aliens went for FD they would just keep shooting the corpses 3. being the dead ragdoll and invincible -> like above + waiting (fun) 4. having no energy after FD -> useless upgrade, since you won't be able to escape any more at all
You cannot make it so that it tricks marines, because the marines will always know you have it after the first alien with feign death dies.
Also, Feign death will never be a viable choice for the first hive, because hive 1 FD skulks are just as good as vanilla skulks.
What do you do after you survived because of FD? You will have to run back to the hive if there is no gorge around.
- As a cele/silence/cloak skulk you might have won the fight without any health loss - As a cara skulk you have at least much more health left - As a regen skulk you can regenerate your health pretty fast (if you managed to get away)
Feign death is the equivalent of the marine jet pack. As soon as I get a jet pack or feign death, my survivability increases remarkably (I escape much more often from engagements, or last longer, than without).
The difference is that feign death can hit the field moments into the game (shade hive -> veil -> feign death: total cost 20+10+15=45 I think?), where as jetpacks don't happen to the later portion of the mid-game if everything is going right for the marines (armory -> advanced armory -> second command chair -> proto lab -> jet pack research: total cost 10+20+15+40+25=110).
<!--quoteo(post=1977070:date=Sep 13 2012, 05:32 PM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Sep 13 2012, 05:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Feign death doesn't fit in the shade tree. It doesn't trick you, it's just frustrating you and I don't see how it could be tweaked to be fair and useful for all aliens at all stages of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Deception upgrade. Fake your own death. How does this not fit in the shade tree?
<!--quoteo(post=1977842:date=Sep 14 2012, 11:40 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Sep 14 2012, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Feign death is the equivalent of the marine jet pack. As soon as I get a jet pack or feign death, my survivability increases remarkably (I escape much more often from engagements, or last longer, than without).
The difference is that feign death can hit the field moments into the game (shade hive -> veil -> feign death: total cost 20+10+15=45 I think?), where as jetpacks don't happen to the later portion of the mid-game if everything is going right for the marines (armory -> advanced armory -> second command chair -> proto lab -> jet pack research: total cost 10+20+15+40+25=110).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't tell what point you are trying to make here.
Here is an attempt at trying to better articulate the suggestion I had for changes to Feign Death <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121110" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=121110</a>
Why is it hard to remove things like this? I don't understand. Nothing about ns2 hinges on having this awful ability. One of the biggest realities faced by designers/engineers is that their work will sometimes be removed for some greater good..this is one of the cases where this needs to apply.
<!--quoteo(post=1977942:date=Sep 14 2012, 05:12 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 14 2012, 05:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why is it hard to remove things like this? I don't understand. Nothing about ns2 hinges on having this awful ability. One of the biggest realities faced by designers/engineers is that their work will sometimes be removed for some greater good..this is one of the cases where this needs to apply.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, it happened already.
Poor, poor Grenade Launcher attachment for the LMG. We will miss you.
Comments
So it's handy to escape with but a disadvantage if you want to hang around and get a few more hits/kills in.
However, "using" regeneration requires player effort and planning.
If you want to 'use' feign death, you stand in somebody's line of sight and get shot a bunch of times. If you want to 'use' regeneration, you get OUT of their line of sight (more likely to happen if you make it happen than if you wait for them to back off and play nice)
It's not necessarily about getting 'tricked' either. I'm totally okay with mechanics like cloaking (and I still love the way NS1 did it), but feigning death is different. Especially in NS2 where it just triggers for you in combat without doing much of anything.
It's clearly meant to be an NS2 retooling of redemption from NS1, but redemption works much, much better.
You know the person has been redeemed (I think there's a sound/visual cue?), and it's never guaranteed to work (rather, it's a series of dice rolls that never stops being tremendously risky until you die or teleport back). It's also strictly simpler - easier to change it, easier to get legitimate feedback about it, easier to explain to new players. Redemption is fine, and it doesn't need to be overcomplicated by this idea of 'feigning death' which is blatantly stolen from the TF games. Why not just put redemption in if a mechanic like this is desired?
Remember NS1 there was a similar alien perk which saved your life. If you were very low on health and survived a few seconds you'd be teleported back to hive. This made escaping out of tight/deadly situations handy without making them really any harder to kill.
Remember NS1 there was a similar alien perk which saved your life. If you were very low on health and survived a few seconds you'd be teleported back to hive. This made escaping out of tight/deadly situations handy without making them really any harder to kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's Redemption, which has been a point of contention for the past few pages.
If a spy stabs me in TF2, I can always say it was my fault not watching my back. Also he had to find a save place before the cloak timer runs out. He had to chose the right moment to attack and so on and so on. It was skill involved by the spy. Feign Death needs no skill. That makes it cheap and therefor frustrating for the marine player.
The whole problem is, that feign death is a cheap life saver. Something like that is always bad in a multiplayer game. What we need is an upgrade, that you can use with skill and that is counter-able.
So again, the first step to make feign death a fun mechanic is to allow the player to interact with it. Without interaction you never need any skill for it.
<ul><li>Let the player decide when to come back to live.</li><li>Allow the marine to kill the alien by shooting long enough at the corpse. (At least 20 to 30 LMG bullets.)</li><li>Make feign activating at 40% instead of 10% max health. (So it isn't that useful as life saver, but for situational ambushes.)</li></ul>
I think it is only really a problem for fades, and maybe skulks. The rest of the classes it has very little use and most of the time you just die when trying to escape. The fade can just blink away easily and get away most of the time. The skulk ends up just suiciding and can sometimes get an extra bite in and kill you. To me that is just a frustrating mechanic.
so how about making it an active ability? you push a button and pretend to die as soon as you get hit (if you are not hit, it will be deactivated again after a few seconds). this would require great timing and situational awareness. not sure how useful and fun it would be, that seems very difficult to estimate without testing it for a while.
there is another problem i recently noticed: while respawning, you can actually get cloaked by a shade before respawning! then you just stand there next to all the marines and regenerate, also recharging your feign death...
does that sound more fair?
People know that there is an unhittable invisible alien walking around, when they didn't get +5, but in some situations it is just impossible to finish it.
E.g. when you kill him during escape. Maybe he was just before a cornor but you managed to pistol kill him 50 meters away. You didn't get the points, so you know he will use his invincible mode to walk around the cornor, where you can't reach him anymore.
Feign death doesn't fit in the shade tree. It doesn't trick you, it's just frustrating you and I don't see how it could be tweaked to be fair and useful for all aliens at all stages of the game.
Than it would be not more of an active ability as cloak is.
Sure, there should be no clue that you are feigning so we need the +5.
It just needs some skill involved. And scrap this get-out-of-jail-crap. Such a mechanic is always frustrating in a multiplayer game. It is just as bad as a mechanic that only tricks / works on new players.
tadaaa<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1977070:date=Sep 13 2012, 04:32 PM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Sep 13 2012, 04:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nobody gets tricked by feign death.
People know that there is an unhittable invisible alien walking around, when they didn't get +5, but in some situations it is just impossible to finish it.
E.g. when you kill him during escape. Maybe he was just before a cornor but you managed to pistol kill him 50 meters away. You didn't get the points, so you know he will use his invincible mode to walk around the cornor, where you can't reach him anymore.
Feign death doesn't fit in the shade tree. It doesn't trick you, it's just frustrating you and I don't see how it could be tweaked to be fair and useful for all aliens at all stages of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You would be surprised, at least once a night I'm explaining to my teammates how to tell if a kill is real or not... You might be underestimating the amount of new players, and after 1.0 it will be even worse. I think the major issue is in team situations when you have multiple marines shooting a fade, if you don't get a +5 /10/15 it isn't that suspicious if you feel like your teammate got the killing blow. The looking at the kill streams in the top corner to identify the player getting the kill is an ability that veteran players have but people new to fps don't do that... There is simply to much going on for them already on the screen without the need for further distractions.
I think either it should be removed, OR it shouldn't show up as a kill in the stream at all... this looking for a +5/10/15 thing is stupid.
But I agree it should be dropped for something else, redemption or focus come to mind.
Also are we not going to discuss how bad cloaking is in ns2? When you aren't moving is the only time you are even close to invisible... Even shift walking is noticeable by even the most retarded of marines. Cloaking should be like it was in NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=1977086:date=Sep 13 2012, 12:12 PM:name=darkfiction)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (darkfiction @ Sep 13 2012, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977086"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also are we not going to discuss how bad cloaking is in ns2? When you aren't moving is the only time you are even close to invisible... Even shift walking is noticeable by even the most retarded of marines. Cloaking should be like it was in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'd be surprised how many times people have brought up how cloaking is bad in ns2, but it is always a crap shoot to get anything changed it seems. I suggested melding silence and camouflage together (and so have other people), but good luck.
Case and point.
i kinda like the idea of staying a corpse until you move/act. requires no active buttons and still does require good timing, especially if your corpse can still be shot to kill you. this requires less buggy ragdolls i think.
as a marine, you have to evaluate if it's worth spending that extra clip ammo and time, especially during combat. but it is less of a roulette against leap or blink.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let it kick in at 40% of max health.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
imo that could actually result in a downgrade in several situations. e.g. you are attacking with a bunch of teammates and suddenly you are removed from combat for a while...
Yeah that is the point. If you chose this upgrade, you should play in this upgrades style. (Like you play different when having silence.)
I just hate that Feign is used as life saver. Instead of a skillful ambush-tool. Letting it kick in at 40% makes it useless as life saver. It creates an incentive to use it to really trick marines instead of a cheap way to stay alive longer.
Even in your example of the group of aliens it could be useful. You attack first, get feign kicking in, the marines reload and the other aliens storm in. As soon as the marines focus the aliens that are dancing around them, you come back to life and help attacking them while they are not looking in your direction anymore.
It just creates new ambush-opportunities. And scraps this "I betray you of your kill"-mechanic.
People know that there is an unhittable invisible alien walking around, when they didn't get +5, but in some situations it is just impossible to finish it.
E.g. when you kill him during escape. Maybe he was just before a cornor but you managed to pistol kill him 50 meters away. You didn't get the points, so you know he will use his invincible mode to walk around the cornor, where you can't reach him anymore.
Feign death doesn't fit in the shade tree. It doesn't trick you, it's just frustrating you and I don't see how it could be tweaked to be fair and useful for all aliens at all stages of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT, you can't be tricked by it! But alot of times you won't get the Alien anyway because, beside the Lerk/Gorge/Onos, they are to fast that you can land the last shot.
Also a BBing gorge that gets killed just before a building goes down but manages to get 1-2 VB out after feint ended can deside a whole game!
The topic moved on with the idea of "if deign death was fixed" from it's bugs.. would it still work?
It would definitely fit the shade tree if it was able to trick you. For ideas on how it could work with some tweaks (After bug fixes) just see this thread.. theres some great ideas.
<b>What is the utility of feign death?</b>
<i>-2nd chance on killing blow to escape and come back again
-2nd chance on killing blow to finish off your enemy with a last attack</i>
<b>What determines the size of this utility?</b>
<i>-Balance numbers (fixed)
-Experience (not skill) of marine (variable). This is always going to be the case regardless of implementation</i>
<b>What is the payoff?</b>
<i>-Anywhere up to 75pres</i>
<b>So can we balance feign death such that it has a flat risk-adjusted utility across experience levels? </b>
<i>no.</i>
<b>Why is this a problem?</b>
<i>It will never see use in competitive because its overall utility must be low. If its utility was high/balanced in competitive, it will be even higher/imbalanced in less experienced pub play. Also, when it does pay off in competitive, it rewards the lesser skilled player with a <b>huge</b> bonus. Consider also that the main viability upgrades are in different tech trees so you arn't trading off lifeform strength by taking feign.</i>
===================================
Now lets consider the fun aspect which is equally important.
<b>Who derives fun from this mechanic paying off?</b>
<i>-People who make mistakes</i>
Who doesn't when this mechanic pays off?
<i>-People who played better than their opponent</i>
*edit*
so whats my point? How 'easy' or 'hard' you make it for the marine to kill a feigning alien is moot.
The topic moved on with the idea of "if deign death was fixed" from it's bugs.. would it still work?
It would definitely fit the shade tree if it was able to trick you. For ideas on how it could work with some tweaks (After bug fixes) just see this thread.. theres some great ideas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read the thread and none of the suggestions would make it any better.
Feign Death just doesn't fit into the whole alien upgrade system.
All the other upgrades (except hypermutation) give you some kind of combat bonus, which changes your play style. FD is basically a backup for your personal resources, which is highly depending on luck to work.
What options do we have to make it better?
1. a pressable button -> doesn't work, since upgrades are passive
2. being the dead ragdoll -> when the marines realize the aliens went for FD they would just keep shooting the corpses
3. being the dead ragdoll and invincible -> like above + waiting (fun)
4. having no energy after FD -> useless upgrade, since you won't be able to escape any more at all
You cannot make it so that it tricks marines, because the marines will always know you have it after the first alien with feign death dies.
Also, Feign death will never be a viable choice for the first hive, because hive 1 FD skulks are just as good as vanilla skulks.
What do you do after you survived because of FD? You will have to run back to the hive if there is no gorge around.
- As a cele/silence/cloak skulk you might have won the fight without any health loss
- As a cara skulk you have at least much more health left
- As a regen skulk you can regenerate your health pretty fast (if you managed to get away)
The difference is that feign death can hit the field moments into the game (shade hive -> veil -> feign death: total cost 20+10+15=45 I think?), where as jetpacks don't happen to the later portion of the mid-game if everything is going right for the marines (armory -> advanced armory -> second command chair -> proto lab -> jet pack research: total cost 10+20+15+40+25=110).
Deception upgrade.
Fake your own death.
How does this not fit in the shade tree?
<!--quoteo(post=1977842:date=Sep 14 2012, 11:40 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Sep 14 2012, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Feign death is the equivalent of the marine jet pack. As soon as I get a jet pack or feign death, my survivability increases remarkably (I escape much more often from engagements, or last longer, than without).
The difference is that feign death can hit the field moments into the game (shade hive -> veil -> feign death: total cost 20+10+15=45 I think?), where as jetpacks don't happen to the later portion of the mid-game if everything is going right for the marines (armory -> advanced armory -> second command chair -> proto lab -> jet pack research: total cost 10+20+15+40+25=110).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't tell what point you are trying to make here.
Here is an attempt at trying to better articulate the suggestion I had for changes to Feign Death
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121110" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=121110</a>
Nothing about ns2 hinges on having this awful ability. One of the biggest realities faced by designers/engineers is that their work will sometimes be removed for some greater good..this is one of the cases where this needs to apply.
Nothing about ns2 hinges on having this awful ability. One of the biggest realities faced by designers/engineers is that their work will sometimes be removed for some greater good..this is one of the cases where this needs to apply.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, it happened already.
Poor, poor Grenade Launcher attachment for the LMG. We will miss you.
'LMG' is shorter :). But you're right.