Yep, there are differences between pcws and pubs in NS2 . But if you just compare the pub play of NS1 with NS2... imho there is more of the RTS aspect in NS1 (from marines side). Whats the main part of players out there? Pubs or competitive :> .
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
<!--quoteo(post=1977468:date=Sep 14 2012, 07:35 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Sep 14 2012, 07:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977468"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is several factors that undermine the strategic depth in NS2, in vague order of importance:
1) The game is unbalanced (upgrades, lifeforms, maps, ...) so there is often only one obvious choice. 2) Alien tech <strike>tree</strike> bush, abilities being linked to second hive, researchable abilities/upgrades for differentially abundant/important lifeforms. 3) Pres on marine side removing trade-off between army and economy/tech. 4) Lots of in-game walhack minimizing the need of proper scouting. 5) Very little cheesy strategies. 6) Generally not very deep tech trees.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> as much as it pains me to agree, evry point you make here is true. :/
<!--quoteo(post=1977528:date=Sep 14 2012, 12:28 PM:name=Landiron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Landiron @ Sep 14 2012, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens running and blinking around you, spamming their melee and hoping to hit something really doesnt need much judgement calls - there is just no option left.
Imho, it's just bad gameplay in a game with potential.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I totally agree. The most fun part of the game is the first 5 minutes, because it's a little slower paced and you need to actually think about what you're doing. After that the spam comes out, with celerity leap skulks just bouncing around being unhitable and then fades and jetpacks. It just turns into a massive spam fest and decreases the need for skill and game sense.
Half the time you see jet packers in the hive room just shooting away with aliens all chasing around at their feet trying to land a bite. It's pretty ridiculous.
<!--quoteo(post=1977261:date=Sep 14 2012, 12:52 AM:name=[R8]DJBourgeoisie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ Sep 14 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977261"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> NS1 imo lent itself more to pure rts elements such as map control and controlling resources. Taking, holding, and contesting over strategically advantageous positions in maps in NS1 was much more prevalent than in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because NS1 didn't have this silly tech point idea that severely limits viable positions that you can hold on the map. Relocation makes no sense and/or is impossible.
<!--quoteo(post=1977528:date=Sep 14 2012, 02:28 PM:name=Landiron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Landiron @ Sep 14 2012, 02:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens running and blinking around you, spamming their melee and hoping to hit something really doesnt need much judgement calls - there is just no option left.
Imho, it's just bad gameplay in a game with potential.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only noob aliens keep M1 pressed constantly while attacking, this usually gets you killed since you'll have a lot of missed bites. Much better to only bite/swipe in contact.
<!--quoteo(post=1977623:date=Sep 14 2012, 05:50 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 14 2012, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977623"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I totally agree. The most fun part of the game is the first 5 minutes, because it's a little slower paced and you need to actually think about what you're doing. After that the spam comes out, with celerity leap skulks just bouncing around being unhitable and then fades and jetpacks. It just turns into a massive spam fest and decreases the need for skill and game sense.
Half the time you see jet packers in the hive room just shooting away with aliens all chasing around at their feet trying to land a bite. It's pretty ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS1 was much faster and it managed quite well. It also really depends on your FPS, the faster the game is, the harder it gets with lower FPS. Lower mouse sensitivity helps as well, too many marines are spazzing out spraying everywhere the second they see a skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=1977278:date=Sep 14 2012, 01:35 AM:name=paella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paella @ Sep 14 2012, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977278"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: I mean maybe it will maybe it won't, who knows, but your, uh, <i>analysis</i> here is clearly ignorant of the realities of what goes on even in the nascent competitive scene in the beta<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your, uh <i>analysis</i> here is clearly ignorant of the realities of public games where players don't care what goes on in competitive scene.
<!--quoteo(post=1977630:date=Sep 14 2012, 10:01 AM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Sep 14 2012, 10:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977630"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your, uh <i>analysis</i> here is clearly ignorant of the realities of public games where players don't care what goes on in competitive scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What goes on in public games has very little impact on NS2's ability to be a competitive FPSRTS.
<!--quoteo(post=1977623:date=Sep 14 2012, 09:50 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 14 2012, 09:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977623"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Half the time you see jet packers in the hive room just shooting away with aliens all chasing around at their feet trying to land a bite. It's pretty ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
dont like it? try that teamwork hack. get a hive , leap, more evolved attackers. if youre getting jetpacked in your hive as a skulk to let them sit on res towers AND a second com chair. thats not bad game mechanics.
<!--quoteo(post=1977625:date=Sep 14 2012, 09:57 AM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Sep 14 2012, 09:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because NS1 didn't have this silly tech point idea that severely limits viable positions that you can hold on the map. Relocation makes no sense and/or is impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns1 had hive locations that were the only locations to drop a hive. marine teams could hold aliens back from victory by taking 1 or 2 of these points early. its not all that different. and honestly the new mechanic makes it way too sinple. ive seen second hives go up and complete in 2-3 minutes. thats insane if youre thinking ns1.
What goes on in competitive FPSRTS has very little impact on game I play and the game that 99% will play.
<!--quoteo(post=1977641:date=Sep 14 2012, 05:14 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Sep 14 2012, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ns1 had hive locations that were the only locations to drop a hive. marine teams could hold aliens back from victory by taking 1 or 2 of these points early. its not all that different. and honestly the new mechanic makes it way too sinple. ive seen second hives go up and complete in 2-3 minutes. thats insane if youre thinking ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not whining that it's easier for aliens to take hive point, it's just that set of possible strategies on marine side is already filtered by the fact that you can't relocate to say, double on veil.
<!--quoteo(post=1977636:date=Sep 14 2012, 05:10 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 14 2012, 05:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What goes on in public games has very little impact on NS2's ability to be a competitive FPSRTS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. Players make the competition, not the game.
The competetetive scene will be x% "better" than the public scene, regardless of game, because only the players matter, and the players are the same between all games. Thus, if public play is lacking, competitive play will be lacking too.
<!--quoteo(post=1977643:date=Sep 14 2012, 10:16 AM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Sep 14 2012, 10:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not whining that it's easier for aliens to take hive point, it's just that set of possible strategies on marine side is already filtered by the fact that you can't relocate to say, double on veil.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
eh, i dont too much mind that. doing that in ns1 would almost ensure a victory for marine. most of the time teams just rush sub like they always did. but anyway, not being able to drop com chairs everywhere isnt a major breaking point for me. it often got annoying when playing alien and marines dropped a com chair somewhere , like red room for example. now couple that with the severely weakened aliens..
<!--quoteo(post=1977641:date=Sep 14 2012, 05:14 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Sep 14 2012, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ns1 had hive locations that were the only locations to drop a hive. marine teams could hold aliens back from victory by taking 1 or 2 of these points early. its not all that different. and honestly the new mechanic makes it way too sinple. ive seen second hives go up and complete in 2-3 minutes. thats insane if youre thinking ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen phase tech go up in less than 2 minutes without marines suffering for it at all. I find that more insane.
<!--quoteo(post=1977252:date=Sep 13 2012, 11:30 PM:name=Stergeary)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stergeary @ Sep 13 2012, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's far more often "This one Blinking Fade/Jetpacking Shotgunner is raping our/their team." And lets not forget, information is rarely important in this game. In most RTS games, information so often wins games in a way that allows weaker players to beat stronger players. In NS2, this depth is simply absent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an excellent point and I couldn't agree more, but this is a problem in every FPS game ever made... If there is 1 pro on a team, chances are he can carry that team to victory... Right now as of 219 this is exacerbated by the huge disparity in performance among players. I'm hoping this will calm down when UWE starts pumping out performance updates and optimizations. Team stacking is always going to be a problem but can be dealt with by voterandom matches. Also as many here have stated this is different in competitive play, which makes sense as the skill gaps would be much smaller.
<!--quoteo(post=1977311:date=Sep 14 2012, 01:35 AM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Sep 14 2012, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, you need to spectate some competitive teams atm.
Honestly, there's so much change going on, I'm more concerned about performance/FPS than balance/strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^This
My performance actually went down, I was getting constant 65fps in 214-216, and then suddenly 217 with Exo suits and I have to overclock to hit 35fps! >.> This was fairly discouraging since I was expecting better performance as the builds progress. Right now my only hope is for crossfire support so I can put my machine to better use.
<!--quoteo(post=1977644:date=Sep 14 2012, 10:17 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 14 2012, 10:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wrong. Players make the competition, not the game.
The competetetive scene will be x% "better" than the public scene, regardless of game, because only the players matter, and the players are the same between all games. Thus, if public play is lacking, competitive play will be lacking too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's a complete disconnect here. It's true that players matter, but that in no way implies that shortcomings in pub play will cause shortcomings in competitive play. I'll offer a counter-example to illustrate.
It's not difficult for even unskilled Fades to dominate in pubs against disorganized and inexperienced opponents. This does not translate into competitive difficulties though, because a decently coordinated team of equal skill has every ability (though not trivially) to fight off Fades.
<!--quoteo(post=1977687:date=Sep 14 2012, 06:38 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 14 2012, 06:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a complete disconnect here. It's true that players matter, but that in no way implies that shortcomings in pub play will cause shortcomings in competitive play. I'll offer a counter-example to illustrate.
It's not difficult for even unskilled Fades to dominate in pubs against disorganized and inexperienced opponents. This does not translate into competitive difficulties though, because a decently coordinated team of equal skill has every ability (though not trivially) to fight off Fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't kill anyone with fade, and would instantly die to the first shotgunner I came up against. There, your counterexample is wrong.
Don't base a counterargument on something subjective like how difficult something is.
<!--quoteo(post=1977642:date=Sep 14 2012, 08:14 AM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Sep 14 2012, 08:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What goes on in competitive FPSRTS has very little impact on game I play and the game that 99% will play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is a thread specifically about competitive play.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your, uh analysis here is clearly ignorant of the realities of public games where players don't care what goes on in competitive scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>It's a thread about competitive play.</b>
How did you click into a thread without reading the topic?
Edit: dammit. Katana posted while I was helping someone move a mattress. =p
I agree. So far it's pretty damn lackluster, and considering we're feature complete I don't see much happening either. The "scrims" are unbelievably boring to watch, with the vast majority of them having the winning team be obvious within a few minutes in. Doesn't help that almost all the casters have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and just make watching it even more boring. There's also a total lack of skilled players too. I count 4, and 2 of them don't really even play(for good reason). Then you have the game design which allows for less skilled people to win. There's also the performance that, a month away from release, is still so much of a joke that you can't really take comp play seriously anytime soon.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1977252:date=Sep 14 2012, 12:30 AM:name=Stergeary)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stergeary @ Sep 14 2012, 12:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1.) <b>The irrelevance of positioning.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are right that the positioning of one player does not impact the game much because of mechanics like distress beacon, phase gates, etc. But it's like that in most RTS games too. Sending a small number of units to attack your opponents economy doesn't do much because there often some fast units that can be brought or produced to handle it. In NS2 you can beacon or bring players home with phase gate.
However neither of these work against a coordinated attack by multiple players because they can destroy the obs before the distress beacon is finished and meatgrind the phase gate so that no one gets through alive.
Same applies for aliens because the alien buildings are so fragile and come down in seconds. If two marines get to an RT unscouted and aliens are out of position the RT is often lost. And losing a single RT as aliens is a huge loss in a competitive game.
I think positioning is playing a big role in competitive setting and the gameplay works fine in this regard. Big maps also allow a lot of cheese strategies like sending 5 skulk to vent next to marine start, wait for marines to cap majority of the map and attack to the marine start when it's empty. If marines don't realize this because there are no aliens around the map there's nothing they can do when the skulks finally get out of the vent.
I think most players are struggling to understand how long it takes for an RT to pay itself back, especially the alien RTs. Everytime i play public i see aliens dropping 3-4 RTs which is pretty much the worst strategy available. I think dropping only one RT before getting upgrades / hive is the best and most solid build order, two RTs is really a gamble and more than that is just very bad play. Of course all of this might be because most public players don't put any emphasis on attacking and destroying RTs and instead focus on building RTs which actually gives you much worse ROI.
I don't think this is the fault of the game, i think the players are to blame here. It just feels no one has done their math on this subject. If you calculate the building time (without a gorge), RT cost and average cyst cost of an RT (5) it takes 2 minutes and 15 seconds for an alien RT to pay itself off. That's longer than it takes to build a hive without a gorge. A gorge lowers the payback time to about 1 minutes 45 seconds (can't remember the accurate value).
I can somewhat agree with you how it is with marines. Marines often want to build every single RT in the map because it takes only one minute for the RT to pay itself off plus the time it takes to build it which is usually 5-10 seconds depending on the number of marines building it.
This could be fixed by increasing the build times of an extractor or decreasing the time it takes to destroy an extractor. Both of these measures have some other serious drawbacks though. Increasing the build time would make the FPS experience worse because no one enjoys pressing e, compared to pressing the left mouse button. Decreasing the time it takes to destroy a powernode would make defending RTs even more difficult than it is now and make the game more of a whack a mole where skulks and marines are running from RT to an RT. Not fun.
The best fix for this would be to increase the marine extractor cost to say 15 for example. Thus it would take 1 minutes 30 seconds + build time for an rt to pay itself off. It's still shorter than the alien 2 minutes 15 seconds, but as marines need players to build it it could be alright.
This kind of fix would hopefully make you think about dropping RTs as marine too. Aliens already need to be very cautios about this, most players jsut haven't realized it.
<!--quoteo(post=1977252:date=Sep 14 2012, 12:30 AM:name=Stergeary)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stergeary @ Sep 14 2012, 12:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3.) <b>The non-existence of strategies with consequences and responses.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really see an issue here. I find it great that the game is not only about countering strategy A with strategy B because that would be only fun for the commanders. There needs to be some kind of balance between hard counters and viability of all units / weapons / lifeforms. I think NS2 is great as a somewhat linear tech race between the teams. I just wish it was more of a decision if you invest for economy or tech as marines. The little tech decisions we have in the game currently could also be more balanced so that there wouldn't always be the only viable way to go. So definately room for improvement here but no major changed needed imo.
I think there are other issues that will hamper NS2's ability to become a competitive FPS/RTS for example
<b>The abundance of visibility and movement impairing effects</b> There are numerous abilities and mechanics in the game that make it impossible to see or perform actions in the game. These abilities and mechanics include rupture, gorge spit, celerity blur, blink effect, minimap blur, screen shaking when shooting, riflebutt stun & blur, etc. All these features are bad for gameplay because they prevent skilled individuals to be perform well in the game. If the game doesn't allow you to see or perform actions it doesn't matter how good player you are. If good players can't shine they simply stop playing and if spectators can't see talented people performing outstanding play they stop watching. If no one watches the game there will be no sponsor / ad money and no professional e-sports scene can be formed.
<b>Hidden modifiers and gameplay mechanics </b> The game is full of hidden modifiers and gameplay mechanics that have no visual indication at all. This is understandable in the beta but there are also many things that are quite hard to visualize in any way. These modifiers and mechanics include the armor and weapon damage and type system and alien building maturity. These mechanics do not cause problems or headache for the players themselves because they will learn and master these eventually but stuff like this makes game terrible for spectators. If you need to play a game in a high level to understand the mechanics of it the game is never going to be a good spectator experiences. The games that are understandable without even playing the game or even a game in the genre are the most succesfull spectator sports.
Also, I'll quote myself from the competitive forum:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do think there's an extent to which you guys are looking at pro/competitive scene viability the wrong way round.
IMO, if there's a huge base of pub players, clans and teams are going to spring up from that base. WoW PvP blows - honestly it's terrible - but millions of people play it, so there's a competitive scene, not to mention sponsored (!) PvE teams competing for world firsts. No one cares about world firsts or ladder rank in any other MMO, because no other MMO is anywhere near as big (maybe GW2 will change this).
So the first thing NS2 needs is to be fun and engaging for public play. If they actually manage to get, say, a couple hundred thousand people playing on pub servers regularly, and if 1% of that total formed clans, that would be 2,000 people.
But again, that's only if they get a base of 200k people playing. Pretty tough in the crowded modern market. If it happens, then I think the right approach would be for UWE to watch the competitive scene that appears and make very small, incremental changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Competitive play directly effects pub play. I only changed my mind on this recently when watching the ARC v NEXIL streams and re-thinking my position on this.
Clans play this game as efficiently as possible, which ultimately means that the best balance you can achieve you will see in these circumstances. This is essentially the best judge of balance in this game.
The same sort of thing I remember from counter-strike's early days. When clans used to test maps to their limits, and flashbang points and map positioning filtered down to pub play.
If it works at competitive level, it will work at pub level. Not the other way round.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
NS2 RTS plays differently from a traditional RTS largely because: - Units are free and set at the same level for each side - The quality of an individual unit can vary drastically (e.g. sometimes you get a firebat and other times a battlecruiser) - You can only indirectly influence the actions of your units
Personally, I feel this adds more strategy to the game, because it involves much more human psychology to understand how to get your team to do what you want and the other team to screw up. The downside is that winning is determined less by your individual RTS skills (build order, APM, etc) than the aggregate skill of your team.
However, the one major FPS/RTS strategic choice that is lacking in NS2 is spawn location freedom and choosing. In other FPS/RTS's (empiresmod, nuclear dawn), positioning of your spawning locations is one of the key ways to influence your players and even win losing matches. I've commed countless victories by getting people to drive an APC up to the cv in empiresmod or by placing a ninja transport gate next to the bunker in nuclear dawn. The closest equivalent in NS2 (e.g. a ninja PG) is a poor substitute in comparison.
OFF TOPIC CRAP: A little thing i want to share regarding pub and competitive players: (comments so far made me think about it)
A common problem with fps games is that you dont have as strict of a rule set in general... e.g. you see lots of pub servers with insane playerslots making the game zerg heavy, less strategic and playing out of bounds of what it is really balanced around. (ns2 is <u>not</u> balanced for high playercounts, the pres stuff didnt change a thing in that regard and without having almost everything dynamic it never will be balanced around that)
We casual ns2 up <u>on purpose</u> because we assume new ppl wouldnt have as much fun if we "restricted the environment" more towards competitive setups. (cant think of better words to explain it - hope you guys get what i mean)
The problem with this is, it makes a bigger gap between competitive and casual players - ns2 plays totally different in a 6v6 competitive setup, so even if you are good in pubs it doesn't necessarily mean you got any deep understanding of the game at all.
The results is, while this can still produce good players(because they are good at fpss) - the community doesnt push itself up gameplay and strategic wise.
I think this creates a BARRIER for ppl to try out competitive play, creating teams and getting more involved into the game in the long run.
If you look at other games like League of Legends/the whole MOBA thing that got big competitive wise, the casual pub experience isnt that much different from competitive setups (you start 6v6, you got picks, preparation, team setups try to be balanced etc.), so this kinda takes new players by hand and leads them towards the competitive side of things... If ppl are interested, they can watch competitive matches and use stuff they have seen there in "pub" games etc. (at least when i played those games i regularly saw this happening)
While in ns2, pub and competitive feels disconnected. While ppl might still enjoy watching competitive matches, they cant really learn as much from them.. since they dont really play "the same game".
I think it would be better to put pub players into a machinery(you dont have to start with elo matchmaking, more 6v6 servers with maybe commander voting, and some better roundstart system so both teams are full and ready to play would already be a good start) that is more similar to how competitive games are played and setup - they will still have as much fun as they already have - maybe even more over time. (assuming this leads to quicker learning, and better understanding of the game for everybody)
edit: maybe its only me, at least when i played moba games i had a strong urge to play competitively, it had some kind of "its kinda similar when i play ranked or nonranked games with friends" feeling to it - while comparing it to most fps games, nothing pulls you too much towards competitive play - if you want it, it kinda requires you to put up the effort (getting past the barrier) getting to know the game how you have never really played it before. (getting horribly slaughtered by other teams in your first X games, while keeping the will to continue)
How did you click into a thread without reading the topic?
Edit: dammit. Katana posted while I was helping someone move a mattress. =p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I read it all, it was a reply to a reply more or less.
Tech race aspect sucks because there's no clear choice: JP HMG/GL or heavies with HMG. Aliens in NS1 had chamber order but here I don't really see team discussing choice of chambers that much, most people think that they don't matter that much there's no huge divide between mc, dc, sc (onos) and mc, sc, dc (fade).
Koruyo, there may or may not be something to what you say. My personal experience playing ns1 back in the day was: "this is awesome, but it would be way more awesomer if I were playing with the same other people and could actually try out tactically and strategically fun/interesting play." That's why I got into CAL-NS.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1977834:date=Sep 14 2012, 11:21 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Sep 14 2012, 11:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977834"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->maybe a simple "competitive mode" for servers, which forces 6v6 and tournament mode (teams need to ready before play<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can already do this quite conveniently by setting the maximum number of players to 12, installing ns2stats mod to the server and setting the server to competitive mode in the server settings in ns2stats.org
At the moment, NS2 is a game which depends almost entirely on aim, or its equivalent. What this means is that a team with 5 ground level players of rating 8/10 and a commander of rating 5/10 will beat an opposing team with 5 ground level players of 6/10 and a commander of rating 10/10. The commander means so little to the outcome of a game, that this game, in its current state, speaking in competitive terms, is almost entirely an FPS. That being said, there are other games which do the competitive FPS thing far far better.
In contrast, NS1 was won and lost by the commander. One could even say the commander meant too much, as he alone could determine the outcome of the game. That was true strategy.
<!--quoteo(post=1977843:date=Sep 14 2012, 04:41 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 14 2012, 04:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977843"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In contrast, NS1 was won and lost by the commander. One could even say the commander meant too much, as he alone could determine the outcome of the game. That was true strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is absolutely not true. At all.
Also you're using ratings to make it seem as if there are objective measures of skill (there aren't) and also as if you're not just making naked assertions (you are). Finally, you're entirely omitting teamwork as a consideration.
Comments
1) The game is unbalanced (upgrades, lifeforms, maps, ...) so there is often only one obvious choice.
2) Alien tech <strike>tree</strike> bush, abilities being linked to second hive, researchable abilities/upgrades for differentially abundant/important lifeforms.
3) Pres on marine side removing trade-off between army and economy/tech.
4) Lots of in-game walhack minimizing the need of proper scouting.
5) Very little cheesy strategies.
6) Generally not very deep tech trees.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as much as it pains me to agree, evry point you make here is true. :/
Imho, it's just bad gameplay in a game with potential.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I totally agree. The most fun part of the game is the first 5 minutes, because it's a little slower paced and you need to actually think about what you're doing. After that the spam comes out, with celerity leap skulks just bouncing around being unhitable and then fades and jetpacks. It just turns into a massive spam fest and decreases the need for skill and game sense.
Half the time you see jet packers in the hive room just shooting away with aliens all chasing around at their feet trying to land a bite. It's pretty ridiculous.
NS1 imo lent itself more to pure rts elements such as map control and controlling resources. Taking, holding, and contesting over strategically advantageous positions in maps in NS1 was much more prevalent than in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because NS1 didn't have this silly tech point idea that severely limits viable positions that you can hold on the map. Relocation makes no sense and/or is impossible.
Imho, it's just bad gameplay in a game with potential.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only noob aliens keep M1 pressed constantly while attacking, this usually gets you killed since you'll have a lot of missed bites.
Much better to only bite/swipe in contact.
<!--quoteo(post=1977623:date=Sep 14 2012, 05:50 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 14 2012, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977623"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I totally agree. The most fun part of the game is the first 5 minutes, because it's a little slower paced and you need to actually think about what you're doing. After that the spam comes out, with celerity leap skulks just bouncing around being unhitable and then fades and jetpacks. It just turns into a massive spam fest and decreases the need for skill and game sense.
Half the time you see jet packers in the hive room just shooting away with aliens all chasing around at their feet trying to land a bite. It's pretty ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS1 was much faster and it managed quite well.
It also really depends on your FPS, the faster the game is, the harder it gets with lower FPS.
Lower mouse sensitivity helps as well, too many marines are spazzing out spraying everywhere the second they see a skulk.
wat.
Your, uh <i>analysis</i> here is clearly ignorant of the realities of public games where players don't care what goes on in competitive scene.
What goes on in public games has very little impact on NS2's ability to be a competitive FPSRTS.
dont like it? try that teamwork hack. get a hive , leap, more evolved attackers. if youre getting jetpacked in your hive as a skulk to let them sit on res towers AND a second com chair. thats not bad game mechanics.
<!--quoteo(post=1977625:date=Sep 14 2012, 09:57 AM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Sep 14 2012, 09:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because NS1 didn't have this silly tech point idea that severely limits viable positions that you can hold on the map. Relocation makes no sense and/or is impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns1 had hive locations that were the only locations to drop a hive. marine teams could hold aliens back from victory by taking 1 or 2 of these points early. its not all that different. and honestly the new mechanic makes it way too sinple. ive seen second hives go up and complete in 2-3 minutes. thats insane if youre thinking ns1.
<!--quoteo(post=1977641:date=Sep 14 2012, 05:14 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Sep 14 2012, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ns1 had hive locations that were the only locations to drop a hive. marine teams could hold aliens back from victory by taking 1 or 2 of these points early. its not all that different. and honestly the new mechanic makes it way too sinple. ive seen second hives go up and complete in 2-3 minutes. thats insane if youre thinking ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not whining that it's easier for aliens to take hive point, it's just that set of possible strategies on marine side is already filtered by the fact that you can't relocate to say, double on veil.
Wrong. Players make the competition, not the game.
The competetetive scene will be x% "better" than the public scene, regardless of game, because only the players matter, and the players are the same between all games. Thus, if public play is lacking, competitive play will be lacking too.
eh, i dont too much mind that. doing that in ns1 would almost ensure a victory for marine. most of the time teams just rush sub like they always did. but anyway, not being able to drop com chairs everywhere isnt a major breaking point for me. it often got annoying when playing alien and marines dropped a com chair somewhere , like red room for example. now couple that with the severely weakened aliens..
I've seen phase tech go up in less than 2 minutes without marines suffering for it at all. I find that more insane.
This is an excellent point and I couldn't agree more, but this is a problem in every FPS game ever made... If there is 1 pro on a team, chances are he can carry that team to victory... Right now as of 219 this is exacerbated by the huge disparity in performance among players. I'm hoping this will calm down when UWE starts pumping out performance updates and optimizations. Team stacking is always going to be a problem but can be dealt with by voterandom matches. Also as many here have stated this is different in competitive play, which makes sense as the skill gaps would be much smaller.
<!--quoteo(post=1977311:date=Sep 14 2012, 01:35 AM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Sep 14 2012, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, you need to spectate some competitive teams atm.
Honestly, there's so much change going on, I'm more concerned about performance/FPS than balance/strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^This
My performance actually went down, I was getting constant 65fps in 214-216, and then suddenly 217 with Exo suits and I have to overclock to hit 35fps! >.> This was fairly discouraging since I was expecting better performance as the builds progress. Right now my only hope is for crossfire support so I can put my machine to better use.
The competetetive scene will be x% "better" than the public scene, regardless of game, because only the players matter, and the players are the same between all games. Thus, if public play is lacking, competitive play will be lacking too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a complete disconnect here. It's true that players matter, but that in no way implies that shortcomings in pub play will cause shortcomings in competitive play. I'll offer a counter-example to illustrate.
It's not difficult for even unskilled Fades to dominate in pubs against disorganized and inexperienced opponents. This does not translate into competitive difficulties though, because a decently coordinated team of equal skill has every ability (though not trivially) to fight off Fades.
It's not difficult for even unskilled Fades to dominate in pubs against disorganized and inexperienced opponents. This does not translate into competitive difficulties though, because a decently coordinated team of equal skill has every ability (though not trivially) to fight off Fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't kill anyone with fade, and would instantly die to the first shotgunner I came up against. There, your counterexample is wrong.
Don't base a counterargument on something subjective like how difficult something is.
this is a thread specifically about competitive play.
<b>It's a thread about competitive play.</b>
How did you click into a thread without reading the topic?
Edit: dammit. Katana posted while I was helping someone move a mattress. =p
You are right that the positioning of one player does not impact the game much because of mechanics like distress beacon, phase gates, etc. But it's like that in most RTS games too. Sending a small number of units to attack your opponents economy doesn't do much because there often some fast units that can be brought or produced to handle it. In NS2 you can beacon or bring players home with phase gate.
However neither of these work against a coordinated attack by multiple players because they can destroy the obs before the distress beacon is finished and meatgrind the phase gate so that no one gets through alive.
Same applies for aliens because the alien buildings are so fragile and come down in seconds. If two marines get to an RT unscouted and aliens are out of position the RT is often lost. And losing a single RT as aliens is a huge loss in a competitive game.
I think positioning is playing a big role in competitive setting and the gameplay works fine in this regard. Big maps also allow a lot of cheese strategies like sending 5 skulk to vent next to marine start, wait for marines to cap majority of the map and attack to the marine start when it's empty. If marines don't realize this because there are no aliens around the map there's nothing they can do when the skulks finally get out of the vent.
<!--quoteo(post=1977252:date=Sep 14 2012, 12:30 AM:name=Stergeary)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stergeary @ Sep 14 2012, 12:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2.) <b>The zero-sum nature of resource acquisition and territory control.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think most players are struggling to understand how long it takes for an RT to pay itself back, especially the alien RTs. Everytime i play public i see aliens dropping 3-4 RTs which is pretty much the worst strategy available. I think dropping only one RT before getting upgrades / hive is the best and most solid build order, two RTs is really a gamble and more than that is just very bad play. Of course all of this might be because most public players don't put any emphasis on attacking and destroying RTs and instead focus on building RTs which actually gives you much worse ROI.
I don't think this is the fault of the game, i think the players are to blame here. It just feels no one has done their math on this subject. If you calculate the building time (without a gorge), RT cost and average cyst cost of an RT (5) it takes 2 minutes and 15 seconds for an alien RT to pay itself off. That's longer than it takes to build a hive without a gorge. A gorge lowers the payback time to about 1 minutes 45 seconds (can't remember the accurate value).
I can somewhat agree with you how it is with marines. Marines often want to build every single RT in the map because it takes only one minute for the RT to pay itself off plus the time it takes to build it which is usually 5-10 seconds depending on the number of marines building it.
This could be fixed by increasing the build times of an extractor or decreasing the time it takes to destroy an extractor. Both of these measures have some other serious drawbacks though. Increasing the build time would make the FPS experience worse because no one enjoys pressing e, compared to pressing the left mouse button. Decreasing the time it takes to destroy a powernode would make defending RTs even more difficult than it is now and make the game more of a whack a mole where skulks and marines are running from RT to an RT. Not fun.
The best fix for this would be to increase the marine extractor cost to say 15 for example. Thus it would take 1 minutes 30 seconds + build time for an rt to pay itself off. It's still shorter than the alien 2 minutes 15 seconds, but as marines need players to build it it could be alright.
This kind of fix would hopefully make you think about dropping RTs as marine too. Aliens already need to be very cautios about this, most players jsut haven't realized it.
<!--quoteo(post=1977252:date=Sep 14 2012, 12:30 AM:name=Stergeary)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stergeary @ Sep 14 2012, 12:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3.) <b>The non-existence of strategies with consequences and responses.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really see an issue here. I find it great that the game is not only about countering strategy A with strategy B because that would be only fun for the commanders. There needs to be some kind of balance between hard counters and viability of all units / weapons / lifeforms. I think NS2 is great as a somewhat linear tech race between the teams. I just wish it was more of a decision if you invest for economy or tech as marines. The little tech decisions we have in the game currently could also be more balanced so that there wouldn't always be the only viable way to go. So definately room for improvement here but no major changed needed imo.
I think there are other issues that will hamper NS2's ability to become a competitive FPS/RTS for example
<b>The abundance of visibility and movement impairing effects</b>
There are numerous abilities and mechanics in the game that make it impossible to see or perform actions in the game. These abilities and mechanics include rupture, gorge spit, celerity blur, blink effect, minimap blur, screen shaking when shooting, riflebutt stun & blur, etc. All these features are bad for gameplay because they prevent skilled individuals to be perform well in the game. If the game doesn't allow you to see or perform actions it doesn't matter how good player you are. If good players can't shine they simply stop playing and if spectators can't see talented people performing outstanding play they stop watching. If no one watches the game there will be no sponsor / ad money and no professional e-sports scene can be formed.
<b>Hidden modifiers and gameplay mechanics </b>
The game is full of hidden modifiers and gameplay mechanics that have no visual indication at all. This is understandable in the beta but there are also many things that are quite hard to visualize in any way. These modifiers and mechanics include the armor and weapon damage and type system and alien building maturity.
These mechanics do not cause problems or headache for the players themselves because they will learn and master these eventually but stuff like this makes game terrible for spectators. If you need to play a game in a high level to understand the mechanics of it the game is never going to be a good spectator experiences. The games that are understandable without even playing the game or even a game in the genre are the most succesfull spectator sports.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do think there's an extent to which you guys are looking at pro/competitive scene viability the wrong way round.
IMO, if there's a huge base of pub players, clans and teams are going to spring up from that base. WoW PvP blows - honestly it's terrible - but millions of people play it, so there's a competitive scene, not to mention sponsored (!) PvE teams competing for world firsts. No one cares about world firsts or ladder rank in any other MMO, because no other MMO is anywhere near as big (maybe GW2 will change this).
So the first thing NS2 needs is to be fun and engaging for public play. If they actually manage to get, say, a couple hundred thousand people playing on pub servers regularly, and if 1% of that total formed clans, that would be 2,000 people.
But again, that's only if they get a base of 200k people playing. Pretty tough in the crowded modern market. If it happens, then I think the right approach would be for UWE to watch the competitive scene that appears and make very small, incremental changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clans play this game as efficiently as possible, which ultimately means that the best balance you can achieve you will see in these circumstances. This is essentially the best judge of balance in this game.
The same sort of thing I remember from counter-strike's early days. When clans used to test maps to their limits, and flashbang points and map positioning filtered down to pub play.
If it works at competitive level, it will work at pub level. Not the other way round.
- Units are free and set at the same level for each side
- The quality of an individual unit can vary drastically (e.g. sometimes you get a firebat and other times a battlecruiser)
- You can only indirectly influence the actions of your units
Personally, I feel this adds more strategy to the game, because it involves much more human psychology to understand how to get your team to do what you want and the other team to screw up. The downside is that winning is determined less by your individual RTS skills (build order, APM, etc) than the aggregate skill of your team.
However, the one major FPS/RTS strategic choice that is lacking in NS2 is spawn location freedom and choosing. In other FPS/RTS's (empiresmod, nuclear dawn), positioning of your spawning locations is one of the key ways to influence your players and even win losing matches. I've commed countless victories by getting people to drive an APC up to the cv in empiresmod or by placing a ninja transport gate next to the bunker in nuclear dawn. The closest equivalent in NS2 (e.g. a ninja PG) is a poor substitute in comparison.
A little thing i want to share regarding pub and competitive players: (comments so far made me think about it)
A common problem with fps games is that you dont have as strict of a rule set in general... e.g. you see lots of pub servers with insane playerslots making the game zerg heavy, less strategic and playing out of bounds of what it is really balanced around. (ns2 is <u>not</u> balanced for high playercounts, the pres stuff didnt change a thing in that regard and without having almost everything dynamic it never will be balanced around that)
We casual ns2 up <u>on purpose</u> because we assume new ppl wouldnt have as much fun if we "restricted the environment" more towards competitive setups. (cant think of better words to explain it - hope you guys get what i mean)
The problem with this is, it makes a bigger gap between competitive and casual players - ns2 plays totally different in a 6v6 competitive setup, so even if you are good in pubs it doesn't necessarily mean you got any deep understanding of the game at all.
The results is, while this can still produce good players(because they are good at fpss) - the community doesnt push itself up gameplay and strategic wise.
I think this creates a BARRIER for ppl to try out competitive play, creating teams and getting more involved into the game in the long run.
If you look at other games like League of Legends/the whole MOBA thing that got big competitive wise, the casual pub experience isnt that much different from competitive setups (you start 6v6, you got picks, preparation, team setups try to be balanced etc.), so this kinda takes new players by hand and leads them towards the competitive side of things...
If ppl are interested, they can watch competitive matches and use stuff they have seen there in "pub" games etc. (at least when i played those games i regularly saw this happening)
While in ns2, pub and competitive feels disconnected. While ppl might still enjoy watching competitive matches, they cant really learn as much from them.. since they dont really play "the same game".
I think it would be better to put pub players into a machinery(you dont have to start with elo matchmaking, more 6v6 servers with maybe commander voting, and some better roundstart system so both teams are full and ready to play would already be a good start) that is more similar to how competitive games are played and setup - they will still have as much fun as they already have - maybe even more over time. (assuming this leads to quicker learning, and better understanding of the game for everybody)
edit: maybe its only me, at least when i played moba games i had a strong urge to play competitively, it had some kind of "its kinda similar when i play ranked or nonranked games with friends" feeling to it - while comparing it to most fps games, nothing pulls you too much towards competitive play - if you want it, it kinda requires you to put up the effort (getting past the barrier) getting to know the game how you have never really played it before. (getting horribly slaughtered by other teams in your first X games, while keeping the will to continue)
How did you click into a thread without reading the topic?
Edit: dammit. Katana posted while I was helping someone move a mattress. =p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read it all, it was a reply to a reply more or less.
Tech race aspect sucks because there's no clear choice: JP HMG/GL or heavies with HMG. Aliens in NS1 had chamber order but here I don't really see team discussing choice of chambers that much, most people think that they don't matter that much there's no huge divide between mc, dc, sc (onos) and mc, sc, dc (fade).
You can already do this quite conveniently by setting the maximum number of players to 12, installing ns2stats mod to the server and setting the server to competitive mode in the server settings in ns2stats.org
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=120376" target="_blank"><b>More info</b></a>
In contrast, NS1 was won and lost by the commander. One could even say the commander meant too much, as he alone could determine the outcome of the game. That was true strategy.
This is absolutely not true. At all.
Also you're using ratings to make it seem as if there are objective measures of skill (there aren't) and also as if you're not just making naked assertions (you are). Finally, you're entirely omitting teamwork as a consideration.