Something to deal with racism, discrimination, etc...?
ekscom
Join Date: 2012-08-22 Member: 156245Members
Join Date: 2012-08-22 Member: 156245Members
I'd like to request a way to deal with racism, discrimination, etc...
To the people who shrug and wave it off as a "oh well what can you do..." or "it doesn't affect me, i don't care..."
Well, it does affect some people and yeah, there's nothing you can do right now. But there should be something. That's the whole point of this post.
I think UWE must take this issue very seriously. The game will be released very soon and I will not be just one guy. It'll be a zoo and we need a way to deal with it. I started this topic hoping the developers see it.
You can't play this game effectively without a microphone. That makes the need for a way to deal with trolls, racists and such that much greater.
I'm not new to the internet, I know that losers and trolls exist. However, waiting for the server admin to be around and then care about it, and then actually do something about it is not reliable at all. It's even less reliable to wait for a community mod and hope that the server admin cares to use it on his server.
We need something better. Including a kick/ban vote system is the first step. I don't think that exists yet other than in console, and is probably only available to admins.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a community issue to deal with, and is policed by the social temperature of the game's community, not anything designed as a part of the product.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true. In my experience (first hand) the social temperature coulnd't care less. A solution should be designed as part of the game.
When launch day comes we'll have all the trolls and kids jump in. We need at least a ban/kick vote implemented. You can't rely on server admins to be around or to care.
Have you ever dealt with a troll? It sucks. Have you ever dealt with a racist troll? It's WAY, WAY worse.
Here are a few awesome ideas: <a href="http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/harassment" target="_blank">http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/harassment</a>
UWE, how about this:
You can now track who has played for 4 hours or less. If you can do that, can you make something that tracks who has a large number of "racist" flags and restrict their access to the game? Can you track Steam IDs? If a person gets flagged as a racist by enough people, ban them from the game (not just the server) for a day. If that continues, ban them for a week... etc!
Take away their game for really bad and frequent cases.
Also, Is there an option to mute a person? If there is, I havent seen it... Please make its existence obvious.
Thank you
To the people who shrug and wave it off as a "oh well what can you do..." or "it doesn't affect me, i don't care..."
Well, it does affect some people and yeah, there's nothing you can do right now. But there should be something. That's the whole point of this post.
I think UWE must take this issue very seriously. The game will be released very soon and I will not be just one guy. It'll be a zoo and we need a way to deal with it. I started this topic hoping the developers see it.
You can't play this game effectively without a microphone. That makes the need for a way to deal with trolls, racists and such that much greater.
I'm not new to the internet, I know that losers and trolls exist. However, waiting for the server admin to be around and then care about it, and then actually do something about it is not reliable at all. It's even less reliable to wait for a community mod and hope that the server admin cares to use it on his server.
We need something better. Including a kick/ban vote system is the first step. I don't think that exists yet other than in console, and is probably only available to admins.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a community issue to deal with, and is policed by the social temperature of the game's community, not anything designed as a part of the product.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true. In my experience (first hand) the social temperature coulnd't care less. A solution should be designed as part of the game.
When launch day comes we'll have all the trolls and kids jump in. We need at least a ban/kick vote implemented. You can't rely on server admins to be around or to care.
Have you ever dealt with a troll? It sucks. Have you ever dealt with a racist troll? It's WAY, WAY worse.
Here are a few awesome ideas: <a href="http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/harassment" target="_blank">http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/harassment</a>
UWE, how about this:
You can now track who has played for 4 hours or less. If you can do that, can you make something that tracks who has a large number of "racist" flags and restrict their access to the game? Can you track Steam IDs? If a person gets flagged as a racist by enough people, ban them from the game (not just the server) for a day. If that continues, ban them for a week... etc!
Take away their game for really bad and frequent cases.
Also, Is there an option to mute a person? If there is, I havent seen it... Please make its existence obvious.
Thank you
Comments
Ever actually involve yourself in anything competitive? It's hardly clean or good-sport.
The internet is what it is; the very nature of anonymity drives childish behaviors including racism/discrimination.
This is a community issue to deal with, and is policed by the social temperature of the game's community, not anything designed as a part of the product.
yea, so give the community a way to actually do so. i'd like to see a kick-vote or even a vote for a timed ban. the vast majority of the community seems very mature and responsible to me, so i don't think people would abuse this. not only can this help against flamers, but also against people who intentionally try to ruin the game (e.g. recycle while the actual com is defending the base). these things are rare but we'd better stop that before people start accepting them more and more.
You'll always have communities that embrace childish horseplay and racism. You'll also have a lot of communities that generally detest such behavior and police it themselves. The game designer doesn't need to implement these features, they're already there. Kicking, banning, etc already exists. Use it as a community or server operator, and/or empower the community you've created to do it in your stead.
Why should UWE put resources into policing peoples behavior on puplic servers, where thay have no control.
Realisticly speaking its allso, <u>extreamly</u> difficult, time consuming and costly.
Admin tools and ban listings made by the community modders, for the server admins to use if they like on the other hand, is far more realistic then forcing rules on a game that is so open as this.
+1, I agree wholeheartedly
If you want to kick a marine player, give the voting power to the marine team only. That way Aliens won't kick your teammate just cause it'll lower your team's player count.
If your team wants a player removed, it's up to them.
And if some idiot on the opposite team trolls, just mute him/her. It's not like you need to hear him to be able to play. If he griefs his team, then it's in your benefit. Let the other team remove the griefer.
That'll almost eliminate all abuse of the kick/ban system.
Sounds good to me...
So are you saying that it's not a problem then?
It is an issue that you can't kick harrassing players. It exists on servers. Servers are part of the game. Players can move from server to server.
That makes it a game-related issue.
How to say it better?
<!--quoteo(post=1981379:date=Sep 21 2012, 05:30 PM:name=ekscom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ekscom @ Sep 21 2012, 05:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So are you saying that it's not a problem then?
It is an issue that you can't kick harrassing players. It exists on servers. Servers are part of the game. Players can move from server to server.
That makes it a game-related issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is a problem, but it is server related and it is not the job of UWE to deal with it. There is a kick/ban option, that all they can do. You can mute the guys in the game, what more?
If a guy is <u>obviously</u> screwing a game for everybody, then report it to the admins with explanations and screenshot/things concrete. I f YOU are annoyed by a guy, then it is YOUR job to tell to the admin or people the problem. TAKE RESPONSIBILITIES.
As you say: "players can move from server to server", do so if a guy just screw the round...
EDIT: of course if the admins are not on the server :) They can't manage to be at full time on them and it is unrespectful to give them the responsibility of others behavior (i don't say you said that :p)
It is a problem, but it is server related and it is not the job of UWE to deal with it. There is a kick/ban option, that all they can do. You can mute the guys in the game, what more?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want to be able to ban people from the game, not just from one server. Otherwise they can easily move to the next server and @#$% on it too.
<!--quoteo(post=1981386:date=Sep 21 2012, 09:54 AM:name=[HEI]Spade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([HEI]Spade @ Sep 21 2012, 09:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
If a guy is <u>obviously</u> screwing a game for everybody, then report it to the admins with explanations and screenshot/things concrete. If YOU are annoyed by a guy, then it is YOUR job to tell to the admin or people the problem. TAKE RESPONSIBILITIES.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reporting is fine, but we need something to deal with a troll right there and then. A kick/ban is a good first step.
And yes, I am taking lots of responsibility by making this post.
<!--quoteo(post=1981386:date=Sep 21 2012, 09:54 AM:name=[HEI]Spade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([HEI]Spade @ Sep 21 2012, 09:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
As you say: "players can move from server to server", do so if a guy just screw the round...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And let trolls be trolls and run rampant across all servers? I don't think so.
Btw, why are there so many people defending the trolls and the racist pigs?
Are you a troll too?
Thinking about it, I am done replying to people on this topic. The people who know what i'm taking about don't need more arguments. The people who haven't seen it by now will never see it, or are looking for confrontation.
I'm done here.
You can now track who has played for 4 hours or less. If you can do that, can you make something that tracks who has a large number of "racist" flags and restrict their access to the game? Can you track Steam IDs? If a person gets flagged as a racist by enough people, ban them from the game (not just the server) for a day. If that continues, ban them for a week... etc!
Take away their game for really bad and frequent cases.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is wrong with being a racist?
Reporting is fine, but we need something to deal with a troll right there and then. A kick/ban is a good first step.
And yes, I am taking lots of responsibility by making this post.
And let trolls be trolls and run rampant across all servers? I don't think so.
Btw, why are there so many people defending the trolls and the racist pigs?
Are you a troll too?
Thinking about it, I am done replying to people on this topic. The people who know what i'm taking about don't need more arguments. The people who haven't seen it by now will never see it, or are looking for confrontation.
I'm done here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha, why do you take what i said out of context? You can leave a server and report thats not a problem and the guy will be banned/kicked from the server. If he does the same thing on another, then the same end will happen for him.
I will give you 1 reason that actually you can't ban people as random player: abuse... It is the job from admins not anyone else.
Ban somebody from a game is injust and is not your responsibility to choose, if he is banned from all the servers it is his choice.
One last thing: if you want to ban people, run a server yourself...
here are two things UWE could do:
1. add a user-command to display the steam-ID(s). posting screenshots of chats is meaningless if you don't know if the person has a fakenick in order to put the blame on someone else.
right now, people can use ns2stats.org to do that, but that will neither work on all servers nor is it an intuitive thing to do. plus it has room for abuse: you cannot provide clear evidence to link the chat on the screenshot to a specific match. maybe if you also have the scoreboard on the screenshot but... come on! i don't think this command requires a lot of work to implement.
2. a command for users to request that an admin joins the server (with a string parameter to write a short description e.g. "racist on the server"). the admins could be contacted via e-mail for example. if they don't like that, they can turn it off (server-setting) and there should obviously be some sort of anti-spam (each user can only activate it once every x minutes).
this command might require a bit of effort, but it could also help with potential cheaters or technical difficulties which require a server restart or w/e.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As you say: "players can move from server to server", do so if a guy just screw the round...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the server choice (with decent ping) is limited and it can take a while to get a new slot. this will probably get much worse at 1.0. do you really want trolls to have the power to empty servers? they should be the ones leaving.
and btw: just because some of you don't care doesn't mean none of us do. i've quit several other games before, for the reason of massive flaming and griefing. ###### me for being a human being with emotions, right? you can try to ignore those people, but it will still make you angry or at least very annoyed. not being able to do anything about it doesn't really help there.
Policing this kind of thing at a level beyond single server is very dangerous. Who is to be the judge of what is Rascist/Sexist/ and other form of ist?
What is tolerated as a normal everyday thing in a liberal country may be an abhorrent travesty in a conservative country. Who will the rules be set-up for. This is really a community issue, to be policed by the servers and their admins. If you don't want to be affected by this, then it is up to you to find a good community server that responds to your needs, and not try and force your individual viewpoint on the whole world at large.
A German once tried that and we ended up with world war 2.
I'd rather have lots of servers competing for players than 1 dev system that globally sucks or is globally good.
Making steamids available even after specific player left the server would be nice.
this sounds promising. how does a user trigger it?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Who is to be the judge of what is Rascist/Sexist/ and other form of ist?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the other people on the server (vote) or the admin you show the screenshots to. if nobody is really offended, nobody will waste their time by making and posting those screenies.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Policing this kind of thing at a level beyond single server is very dangerous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i agree on this though. especially for global bans, timed or not! this should be something only UWE employees (or people designated by them) should be allowed to and only if the evidence is clear. and tbh i don't think they have the time to bother with this.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once NS2 gets released some servers will start being very popular in comparison to other servers. They'll have real admins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i really hope so. the community will double or even tripple, so that's also many more trolls to keep an eye on.
Bring up the scoreboard (tab) and then click on the speaker icon next to the person's name to mute. But your right that it needs to be made more obvious.
<!--quoteo(post=1981418:date=Sep 21 2012, 09:34 AM:name=Laosh'Ra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laosh'Ra @ Sep 21 2012, 09:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981418"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. add a user-command to display the steam-ID(s). posting screenshots of chats is meaningless if you don't know if the person has a fakenick in order to put the blame on someone else.
right now, people can use ns2stats.org to do that, but that will neither work on all servers nor is it an intuitive thing to do. plus it has room for abuse: you cannot provide clear evidence to link the chat on the screenshot to a specific match. maybe if you also have the scoreboard on the screenshot but... come on! i don't think this command requires a lot of work to implement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sv_status should now work for all players, such that you can get a person's steamid (although its shown in the weird SteamID * 2 + 1 format).
Also, ekscom is right, this is a problem that UWE/NS2 should think about dealing with, not just community servers and admins. Harassment in gaming is a real problem that drives away players (mostly women), shrinking the playerbase. I've already seen verbal and textual abuse happen in NS2 and while proper adminning can help, its an inadequate solution.
Leave the rest for the admins.
Maaaaybe add in kick votes. But that tends to end poorly.
IMO this kind of stuff should be done on a server to server basis, its up to the admins of that server to decide if they want to have no-racism/harrasment policies. The tools should be available for them to enforce those rules however.
they aren't always around though. I like the idea of having a kick vote - even for players that are just wasting a spot in the ready room.
But mostly i like the kick vote because if someone starts being a troll or cyberbully etc, you don't have to spend huge amounts of time either tracking down an admin or by changing servers.
You simply kick them and continue playing your round. Of course the threshold needs to be appropriately
I guess there is plenty of good examples from other games, and maybe we could use what works in other games, if it isn't too hard to implement. I think we have agreat community right now, and we all want to keep it that way, so I support anything to keep out the worst trolls and idiots.
<!--quoteo(post=1981394:date=Sep 21 2012, 08:04 AM:name=ekscom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ekscom @ Sep 21 2012, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981394"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Btw, why are there so many people defending the trolls and the racist pigs?
Are you a troll too?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1981394:date=Sep 21 2012, 08:04 AM:name=ekscom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ekscom @ Sep 21 2012, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981394"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm done here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OP seems disturbingly self-entitled in his/her tantrum. Scares me a little.
But this is getting ridiculous. This is a game created for entertainment value. In no way does its interests intersect with enforcing your own or anyone's code of morals. Doesn't anyone else see this separation? As in public, people can say racist things legally, and you have the right to call them out on it or ignore them.
In this game there is a mute button and makes all the bad things go away. Or, further, if you want to go to a server that enforces good behavior or any other rulesets, I'm sure a per-server ban system will come in due time, likely before release.