Siege And Map Analysis

matso · December 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">Sieges are better than you think</div> As most people know by know, sieges got a nice range boost just before release. I did a little study on just how this has affected the maps.

ns_bast: Build two advance turret factories in base and build three sieges in base. This controls one hive (engine) and six out of 10 resource points (marine spawn, 2 in atmos, engine room, aft junction and tram maint) on the map.

Conclusion: unplayable.

ns_hera: Build advanced TF in processing and two sieges. Controls one resource and two hives.
ns_tanith: Build one advanced TF just below the vent opening in Computer control (between satcom and fusion). Use the TF to get into the vent, build one siege for satcom. Build another siege for fusion.
ns_nothing: Build one advanced TF in the middle of the power-silo-side corridor leading to the great viaduct. Build one siege for power silo, one siege for viaduct.

Conclusion: Is it reasonable that the marines should only need to hold one location to control two hives?

ns_eclipse: south loop ALMOST allows the same tactic, but you do need to build two turret factories to reach both maint and comp core hive. OTH, the sieges will wipe out any defenses at comp core and kill the maint hive, so in practice, it isn't much difference.

ns_nancy: Sieges controlled by an ATF in mess hall controls 4 out of 9 resource spots, leaving the aliens with just three resources unless they grab the marine base and its two res nodes. If the marines control one hive, the aliens will only have two res points.

Conclusion: Affected, but still playable. The aliens need to be a fair bit better than the marines to have a chance.

ns_caged: No siege problems.

The reason I post this here is of course that I want to encourage the marines to use as many cheap siege tactics as possible, so the problems with the siege becomes obvious to most. That in turn should speed up the upcoming siege range nerf.

Ardesco · December 2002

1 fully upgraded turret factory = 50 rp.
2 seige guns = 50 rp.
4 regular turrets (probably more, but oh well) = 76
1 phasegate = 20 rp.

that's 196 resource points for capturing a hive.
Almost equivalent to sending 4 ha + hmg guys in to take it themselves

Let's look at the alien side:

5 off chambers = 70 rp
3 def chambers = 42
==112
And all this is spent by the gorge, of all people.

Also, note that just because the marines prevent the aliens from taking the node does not automatically assure the marines that they own the nodes, as skulks can still harass any marines or forward bases just fine on their own.

I do agree that there are some problems with the marines that still make them a little too easy against aliens (at least for me when I'm commandering), but in all honesty, I think the bottleneck has to do with the fact that the aliens are so limited in what they can do until the second hive (and even then, the best game winning stuff for aliens --onos--only comes at 3 hives).

Unless you significantly ramp down the range on the seige (and I mean like somewhere to 1/2 the radius of what it is now, which is highly unlikely), the issue of holding multiple locations witha couple of seige guns from one location is going to continue. So what if the range on the seige is lowered to protect engine hive? Just build a seige gun on the elevator (yes, its possible) instead of in the main base and you can still hit atmospheric, and push a little farther out of your base towards the revolving door to hit aft junction.

There will always be issues with seige guns being able to dominate multiple positions due to their location, and the solution is NOT to nerf the seige gun's range. Its already an issue for future map makers as to what the range of the seige gun will be--if it ever should change. Heck, if the ns_bast marine spawn was a tiny bit larger, I'd make room for a second seige gun to dominate the engine hive.

Seriously, the seige range needs to stay consistant as a consideration for all future and current mapmakers for ns. We can't have all these maps changing in terms of tactical play just because the seige range got completely neutered. Future maps made specifically with the range of seige guns in mind could get seriously screwed up if such a change was made, plus, I honestly think the aliens just need better tools to respond to the threat of seige or be able to combat it better than how they are currently.

DDTrini_Lopez · December 2002

I agree , sieges well used by a commander can control everything.
An alternative to reducing the siege range would be making some kind of walls that the siege cannot go through . In those maps that a siege in the base can already protect a hive , a no-siegeable wall should be put between the base and the hive so that marines can't use sieges in that location.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'> |||||||| <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'>

Dunsby · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ardesco @ Dec 19 2002, 03:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>1 fully upgraded turret factory = 50 rp.
2 seige guns = 50 rp.
4 regular turrets (probably more, but oh well) = 76
1 phasegate = 20 rp</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I belive its siege CANNONS and they cost 15 rp each i believe, so that would be 30res, also siege shoots through walls, meaning no trouble of pesky aliens when they respawn.

Tazol · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silent But Violent @ Dec 18 2002, 02:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ardesco @ Dec 19 2002, 03:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>1 fully upgraded turret factory = 50 rp.
2 seige guns = 50 rp.
4 regular turrets (probably more, but oh well) = 76
1 phasegate = 20 rp</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I belive its siege CANNONS and they cost 15 rp each i believe, so that would be 30res, also siege shoots through walls, meaning no trouble of pesky aliens when they respawn.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Wrong. In the recent patch, Siege Cannons now cost TWENTY-FIVE resources, since before it was a typo.

matso · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ardesco @ Dec 18 2002, 05:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>1 fully upgraded turret factory = 50 rp.
2 seige guns = 50 rp.
4 regular turrets (probably more, but oh well) = 76
1 phasegate = 20 rp.

that's 196 resource points for capturing a hive.

</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Read what I write please. This is ONE location controlling TWO hives. At least on tanith, hera, nothing and eclipse.

Also note that there is no need to pay those 200 rp right away. You have plenty of time to do that later - after all, the aliens won't be able to get a second hive until 10-12 minutes into the game.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Let's look at the alien side:

5 off chambers = 70 rp
3 def chambers = 42
==112
And all this is spent by the gorge, of all people.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
As you take that location in the first few minutes of the game, the gorges won't have any resources to build defenses, so the alien cost is irrelevant.

A simple way of doing it is to build as little as possible in main base, sending most marines to the two-hive-siege location. Drop a CC, spawns, TF and turrets there, and trust your defending marines to be able to pick off unupgraded skulks or resourceless gorges until you have enough turrets. Long before the 2nd hive can be built, you will have the resources to upgrade to siege.

The issue I have with one-location-wins for the marines is that if they manage to get there, they won't have to move again - they can just stay in one spot and pick off skulks, either winning outright when they build the siege in case the starting hive is in range, or wait until they have HA and just stroll over to kill the last hive.

The aliens don't have any alternative to throwing themselves into the waiting LMG/turrets of the waiting marines. Which has about a snowballs chance in hell of succeding, unless none of the marines can hit the broadside of a barn from the inside.

As to what should be done I'd suggest cutting the placement range from the ATF to the siege turret to about 1/3 of the current range, as well as cutting the range of the siege itself with about 15-20%. That should make the current game playable until new maps, designed with the siege in mind, comes online.

Mercior · December 2002

Just as there are these siege tactics, which I & my clan are fully aware of and use, there are counter-attacks to them. I think the game is balanced as it is and the sieges do not need changing, the aliens just have to get used to the idea and work around it.

As for sieging 2 hives from 1 location, thats really the map designers fault tbh - somethng for future designers to watch out for!

Ardesco · December 2002

Oh forget it. I had a big post up before, but I figured that anyone who would argue for a seige turret range reduction instead of a general change in the way aliens are played must have a good reason to pick the former instead of the latter. All I can say is that if the seige cannon range is changed, it's still not going to change my strategies as a commander one bit (given that I usually take maintenance and comp core separately using south loop as a jumpstart). Also, I wouldn't really mind if seige gun hp were lowered a little bit. It's never factored into any of my games considerably, but reducing the hp on seige guns would make it easier for acid rockets to destroy them instead of after the hive is destroyed.

Also, will the seige gun animation ever get fixed, or is it purposely bugged like that?

Also, bear in mind that the problem with holding one location is that you only give the aliens one target to focus on (well, two really): either the forward base you are holding, or your main base. Aliens should be able to take out the forward base if they all rush (or seriously threaten the main base enough to recall marines, causing the fall of the forward base), but in my opinion, aliens attacks simply do not cut down turrets fast enough (or turrets cut them down faster) to really say that an alien rush is "threatening", so long as a marine can aim well, no bunnyhopping skulk can pray that running out straight into the open will ensure his victory.

Just my opinion. Don't kill me <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

matso · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ardesco @ Dec 18 2002, 08:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Also, bear in mind that the problem with holding one location is that you only give the aliens one target to focus on (well, two really): either the forward base you are holding, or your main base.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Why bother about the main base? Just relocate the main base (CC and spawns) to the win-location, and you have only one place to defend. Odds are VERY much against the aliens cracking that nut...

Merkaba · December 2002

I'll say this for the record - I detest siege guns.

Ardesco · December 2002

The main base is pretty important in most games because, well, most of your valuable structures are there, and it's expensive to relocate them. In theory, relocating them would give the aliens the chance to capitalize on the marine's weaknesses, but this really isn't the case, given how weak I feel aliens are right now.

Trevelyan_006 · December 2002

do you even know how long you had to stop them from holding that location? you suck... dont ruin the game for the rest of us.

TheHornet · December 2002

i belive seige guns are a big advantage to marines, but i dont think that they are some godly force that can't be stopped, a good team of aliens can easily destroy seiges before they take down a hive if they work together... But i think seiges work best in silence when you have a single marine in a vent setting up four siege turrets near a hvie but, he doesn't finish any of them, so once all four are nearly built he can tap each one a bit and they all come online and take out the hive before the aliens can find his location

matso · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mercior @ Dec 18 2002, 08:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As for sieging 2 hives from 1 location, thats really the map designers fault tbh - somethng for future designers to watch out for!</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Hmm... that brings up another point. The constraint that avoiding too powerful siege locations means that the maps will all start to resemble ns_caged - hives in three corners, marine base in forth, no big central rooms.

I'd argue that the siege range is harmful to the variety of the maps, as well.

Zerglin · December 2002

There is that one map where you can seige one hive from the marine start. If that is the main alien hive then they are screwed. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'>

Sirus · December 2002

Bast

V_MAN · December 2002

As far as I know building a siege in the base on ns_bast will not reach the hive in engine room, even if it is built in the cornor (the closest point) all it will get is the res chamber and nearby structures; however it did damage the hive while it was taking down the res chamber and nearby offence chambers.

Vicentegrad_II · December 2002

Hell, just remove Siege towers from the game and make Grenade launchers the anti-structure weapon of choice (with a few tweaks ofcourse). It's not like it would neuter the Marines in any way, or give the Aliens any real advantage now would it. A HA-Grenadier marine is still very deadly, afterall

doesn't make sense anyway, cannons firing through walls and all

...just a suggestion...

USCMLieutenant_Ripley · December 2002

matso made the best argument of all time, regarding sieges. Map design will HAVE to reflect siege radius. So now you have to have a balanced game and balanced maps? what a nightmare.

Eater1 · December 2002

Well, I think some two-hive-sieging locations are really not that bad: if the aliens allow marines to build a base in South Loop in Eclipse, unless their main hive is Eclipse Command, the aliens are really, REALLY stupid or don't know how to press the fire button. If the marines can get away with it, they can probably get away with just rushing the hive with lmg's. If the aliens have their main in Eclipse, they should still cover South Loop as it's very close to one of the two hives they will take next, although in this case it is more understandable if they allow the marines to build there. I think the best solution I've heard is to reduce not the siege gun's range but the range around the ATF where siege guns can be built, as this would not have any effect on the current map design but would make many of those 2-hive locations require an extra 50 RP. And a siege-proof wall for future maps may not be a bad idea, although it would have to be clearly marked for the commander.

Eater.

matso · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([DA]CaptMainwaring @ Dec 21 2002, 10:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As far as I know building a siege in the base on ns_bast will not reach the hive in engine room, even if it is built in the cornor.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I've tested it. If you place the turret perfectly, it takes out the engine hive. Note: perfectly. If you miss by one pixel, it won't hit it.

matso · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Eater1 @ Dec 22 2002, 01:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Well, I think some two-hive-sieging locations are really not that bad: if the aliens allow marines to build a base in South Loop in Eclipse, unless their main hive is Eclipse Command, the aliens are really, REALLY stupid or don't know how to press the fire button.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Well, if the marines sends 3-4 soldiers directly to south loop and builds a phase gate, then it will be very, very hard to take it out. Note that there is no need for the marines to take maint hive - it is controlled directly from south loop. They can go there to just drop a res tower, but south loop is the crucial point.

Whenever I play eclipse and we start in eclipse command, I know we will loose if the marine commander is smart. There is just no way of getting to south loop in time to defend it. As long as the marine commander plays a tight game and always maintains the majority of his soldiers on phase-gate standby, aliens will find it extremly hard to be able to either overrun the base or take south loop.

Wu-Wili · December 2002

Well, the siege isn't the most powerful weapon that can't be destroyed. Because of the fast and small skulks. Every TF that isn't in base has atleast ONE blind spot to where nearby turrets can't shoot. I haven't played much on aliens, and I'm not a good alien, but still even I find the blindspots and destroy the turretfactory and then turrets and sieges around it. And if we have two skulks attacking the TF, well, you know what that makes...
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'>

BlueGhost · December 2002

TF's only have blind spots if the com is stupid, when I com if I've taken both hives I just get EVERYONE on the team with a wealder and tell them to cycle round the gates keeping everything peachy.

Obviously many people run off because its getting boring, I explain to them that this tactic will win them the game as we have res and tech coming in and the aliens can only have res but no tech..

If that doesn't work I explain that anybody who doesn't do what they're told won't be getting any toys..

Normally I end up sending people out on 'special' missions (aka go and capture that res point and build it and bulida TF and 4 turrets all on your own). These slow down our technology drive but as long as only 1 person goes at a time it stops them all running off and losing us the game.

BlueGhost

CoolHungDaddy · December 2002

lol at blueghost. as a com I often feel more like a nursery-school teacher than a marine com.

Marines: "Com we are bored We will look for res."
com : "If you don't stay we might loose processing, aliens know we are there"
Marine (15 seconds later) "I found double res. drop tf quick"
com: "Go back to your waypoint"
Marines sit in holoroom, staring at the fascinating projection in the center. Meanwhile a well organised alien team ripped the PG at processing apart.....

2 MInutes later Fades appear.
Marine: "Gimme toys!"
com is chewing the inner console of his cc.
Marine gets HMG.
com yells: "Move in teams. Wait till you get the whole outfit."
Marine runs off with his nice new toy, encounters a fade and is killed. HMG lost.
First thing after respawn Marine yells:"HMG and JP ASAP
com ignores him.
"Why did you give toys to Bob and not to me"
"I am a better player, I killed X aliens"
"F****G com, don't you hear me??"
A vote to eject the commander has started.
"com U r nOOb, F*** off"

and so on and so forth. I end up asking myself two things: How old are these guys ? Why don't they use their brains a teeny weeny bit and think just a little bit before acting.....

Well obviously I just had two bad commanding experiences.... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'>

Prota

Siege And Map Analysis

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