I've been seeing a lot more f4 on the alien side rather than the marines, this can be due to 2 main reasons right now.
1. The marines can end they game but they won't cause they are just all waiting for duel exo's and the aliens don't want to wait. 2. Many times the respawn for aliens can become quite long, either at the very begining of the round or at the end where spawn times can easily get to 60 seconds or more.
Another big reason why either side will f4 is due to players seeing the game turn into a turttle match and last forever. Rather sitting is spawn and playing with themselves they f4 to give the other side a player bonus to end the game faster.
The one or two players that don't want to f4 and look upon the rest of their team in disgust and call them cowards, in a 13 and 2 game.
The eight or nine players that are sitting in the ready room and looking at the players that won't f4 saying their either afk or having too much arrogance.
<!--quoteo(post=1982038:date=Sep 23 2012, 02:23 PM:name=comp_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (comp_ @ Sep 23 2012, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand the logic behind F4'ing but sometimes people really overuse it, and kinda takes the fun out of it. Many times you really are losing but that doesn't mean you can't try to force a beacon, or make something big happen out of a synchronized effort in an attempt to turn the tables, something I have seen happening in competitive games and would love to be able to do in a pub game (sure, the teamwork will never be the same, still...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Imho there is no logic in F4'ing unless teams are something like 2 vs 8 with the enemy team not willing to even out. Especially during a Beta phase i consider F4'ing borderline retarded. Too many people min-maxing their gameplay around static cookie cutter "play to win"-strats and when those fail at the first try, they just throw the table over like some huffy kids.
It's just such an sad tradition that leads to tons of boring rounds. The worst part being that way too many teams don't even try to win a round after a big push-back. We lost our only locked down hive to 1 hive aliens? Recycle!
I just don't understand it.. In all those years of playing NS i've seen the most amazing comebacks in any competitive game ever. Rounds that dragged on for over an hour with no real progress, until that one big push comes along or a lucky ninja marine gets out of containment to establish a new PG outside of base. It's these epic moments that make NS special and memorable! Not the rounds where you just steamroll the enemy team in 5-10 minutes. These 5-10 minute rounds are usually as boring as watching paint dry because they are way to predictable.
And then we have those rounds where the whole Kharaa team is confused, because Marines recycled their base. It happens so often that both teams think "Damn we are screwed, let's wait for them to end it!" at the same time, but only Marines have the ability to actually recycle and end it. Often it's just a lone Alien realizing what happened and it just kills the CC on it's own while rest of the Kharaa team is mostly busy with "waiting for the marines to end it". F4 is the even worse version of that.. when you F4 you are not ending the round, you are just making the teams even more uneven, giving your team an even harder time which usually results in even more drawn out rounds.
Sure a "surrender vote" could be an viable option but can it really be an solution? I'm gonna predict that barely any surrender votes will get trough and when they don't get trough the vote starter will just F4 and thus manage to sabotage the round anyway. In the end, it's an community problem you can't fix trough any game mechanics or features. Because F4'ing is simply a community accepted version of rage-quitting... What really annoys me is that F4'ers often tend to kill team morale. Have one guy go "GAME OVER MAN LET'S F4!" and the other players will stop trying to win, waiting for the debate on "should we F4?" to end, which is never actually lead.
If you think the round is lost then just leave to another server, but don't ruin it for everybody else who still wants to fight because they know that there is still a chance to win. Is it a small chance? That depends on the situation and players, but yes mostly it's small chances. But the smaller the chance for it to work, the bigger the satisfaction when it ends up actually working!
But when everybody stops trying, why even bother playing at all? Feels like people just want to play "easy pickings" rounds and when they don't get them, or the tide of the round turns against them, they just yell for the round to get restarted.. I refuse to call these people "Gamers"! A Gamer <b>loves </b>a challenge, he is constantly looking for a new and bigger challenge. Because a Gamer knows that you can only improve by going above your limits and getting your nose bloody. No risk - no reward, high risk - high reward it's as simple as that.
Oh and let's not ignore the other side of all this: Ending rounds trough F4/Recycling basically cheats the winning team out of their win. Just because some people don't like the idea of losing doesn't mean they should be able to take away the fun of winning for the other team, that's just cheap...
If the game is lost, and will be over in 2-3 minutes, you should probably not F4, you should instead give the other team a chance of victory. If the game is lost and will be over in 20-30 minutes, I think F4 has it's merits.
If you are on the losing team, and are playing 5 vs 10 people, you can ask the other team to either finish up quickly, or change sides for balance for the rest of the game. If the 10 players stay on their team, but spend the time fortifying the resource towers, and don't try and end it, I don't think they deserve the victory, and it's acceptable to F4, to get a more interesting game.
If aliens says "we have nothing, come kill us" and the marines says "wait, we need 10 exos", then I don't think either side will have a big rush of excitement when the last hive dies.
rebirth: I have either been extremely lucky in my general NS2 experience or you are greatly exaggerating the problems. I don't think I have ever seen a team F4 just because they didn't win with a quick vanilla strat, nor have I seen a single game where both teams thought they had lost and attempted to F4/recycle at the same time (seriously?!?).
Like I've said previously I honestly think that most players will reserve F4ing until a game is A) almost certainly lost and B) the winning team has stalled out and is just containing the losing team in their base/hive for the forseeable future. As others have said, under these conditions when the inevitable victory finally comes I really don't think it gives the team any more satisfaction than if the losers had said "well done, you beat us, let's start over and see if we can get one back".
Just to repeat - I think that when a team F4s out they should <u>lose</u> and the other team should <u>win</u>, like the mp_autoconcede CVAR worked in NS1. Some people seem to complain that people F4 just to avoid having a loss registered in their stats (seems petty if you ask me, but hey).
<!--quoteo(post=1982334:date=Sep 24 2012, 06:16 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Sep 24 2012, 06:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But when everybody stops trying, why even bother playing at all? Feels like people just want to play "easy pickings" rounds and when they don't get them, or the tide of the round turns against them, they just yell for the round to get restarted.. I refuse to call these people "Gamers"! A Gamer <b>loves </b>a challenge, he is constantly looking for a new and bigger challenge. Because a Gamer knows that you can only improve by going above your limits and getting your nose bloody. No risk - no reward, high risk - high reward it's as simple as that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine coms can call the game by recycling the Inf portals, i rarely see a lot of f4ing going on on the marine side.
However, Some coms say "screw it! they aint taking us easy" and push extra portals to get the spawn times down. Due to this, you have some REALLY epic last stand draw outs with aliens hammering the main base.
The waiting room chat after usually has good natured ribbing like "man, took you aliens long enough!"
However, Idon't see a lot of last stand scenarios for aliens. Usually if it's late in the game and you are down to one hive with not much chance to push back, massive F4ing goes on. There are a few reason for this:
Marines have personal res re-cycling. There are usually some 2 chair weapons floating around still and shotguns are beings pumped out still. Once you are confined to your room, these guns are constantly dropped, picked up, and used again. This makes it fun for the marines to still push back aliens and pack a punch.
Marines has passive, at spawn, upgrades if arms lab is still up. They can jump right into combat with these. ready to fight to the death. Aliens need to hatch, press b, choose upgrades, evolve then fight. It breaks the momentum.
3 Infantry portals are much more steady and reliable spawn system than eggs when your base is getting hammered, especially with ranged weapons.
having quite a few MACs in your base from the match really makes it hard to destroy stuff, making the last stand much longer.
This is really down to pure fun last stand situations, not really balance related. It does show you why so many games end on the aliens side by half the team F4ing. They simply do not have the tools and systems available to them to keep out a sustained push when they are down to 1 hive,
<!--quoteo(post=1982961:date=Sep 25 2012, 06:33 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Sep 25 2012, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->another salad forking idea, why is it needed when you can.... F4.
i mean seriously, you cant even get people to map vote half the time so why add in a feature that will not be used and is already in place via f4.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree, but the actual point of this post was to see if people thought F4ing was an inherently bad thing to do or if it should be incorporated into the game in situations that warranted it. I personally am unsure about a voting system and would rather just see the mp_autoconcede function like in NS1.
I think you have a point, 3DKnight, it would be great if the game never led to drawn out stalemates but as it is I think conceding defeat and letting the other team have their well-earned victory without actually having to wait around for the final push should be perfectly acceptable.
I dislike wasting time in lost games. A close game can be turned around, but if it's not even close there's no point in playing it.
Then again, I see people still thinking they can win (e.g.) marines down to 2 chairs and 3 RTs at 20 min into the game with exos camping around the chairs without being able to push, etc.
Sure, if somehow the good people on the other team quit and what's left are complete and utter noobs, it's possible to have some low chance of turning the game around, but in most cases it's game over when one team has a distinct res advantage and the other team can't push anywhere.
The most useful feature I've seen is "surrender" voting in console in this case, which is what I'd usually do.
I also don't understand server admins' "Move or you'll be kicked" when you F4/spec behavior. Most people in the ready room really do want to play a game; they're not just randomly griefing - just not a hopeless one ;-) .
Another solution might be to allow observers above the player count (e.g.) 3 or 4 dedicated observer slots. That way maybe admins will feel better about letting people observe when they're not taking "the chance of somebody else to 'play' a game which is already lost anyway."
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited September 2012
Pretty much the only two types of comebacks I've seen are: - People leave the losing side and are replaced by more skilled players or people leave the winning side and are replaced by less skilled players (occurs only in public matches) - The losing side employs some sort of rush tactic (powernode or CS rush typically, or the old ARC train rushes; primarily occurs in comp matches)
However, these cases are rare. They may occur in only 1 out of 10 or 20 losing public matches and even rarer in comp matches (e.g. the 3rd ARC v Nzxl game in their first casted matchup is the only one I know of). Most often, the match has been determined by the 15 min mark and the next 5, 10, 15 min are just a formality.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1983040:date=Sep 25 2012, 10:19 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Sep 25 2012, 10:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most often, the match has been determined by the 15 min mark and the next 5, 10, 15 min are just a formality.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This exactly. I pretty much only play gathers now when I play NS2. The realisation when a game is lost is normally much better amongst regular gather players, but in pubs, I often find players have no clue about when the game is over. Players want to play on forever because they think they can do something, when the reality 99.9% of the time is very different.
As alien comm on pubs, I used to hate the fact that I can't sell IP's when the game is dead and buried, so F4 is essential. What is more essential is an understanding of when a game is won or lost.
Generally games that are close can go either way and go to their conclusion. When one team has a serious res and tech advantage, there is normally no point to carry on, but you can't explain this to people who don't have an understanding of the deeper strategic subtleties of the game. How can you explain to someone new, that because marines have 7 RN, 2 CC's (and have done for the last 5 mins) and you have only 3 RN, and are now down to 1 hive, that the game is beyond the point of no return? Most players never go beyond the FPS side of the game, and thus struggle to grasp the concepts of the tipping point of a NS2 match.
This is not a slight on them, it's just the way it is. I never used to know when a game was over, now I do...
F4 = deserting your team. gg in Starcraft 1on1 is fine because you are on your own and you can decide for yourself. But you cant tell me you dont get pissed if you play a random 2on2 and your ally QQs midgame due to some drop, even though you did equal damage to your enemy? There is a reason why desertion is a felony. Wars cannot be won if soldiers start running off the battlefield when it gets tough. A commander who recycles despite his team still trying to win deserves a ban just as much as F4 deserters.
<!--quoteo(post=1983111:date=Sep 25 2012, 08:33 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Sep 25 2012, 08:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983111"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->F4 = deserting your team. gg in Starcraft 1on1 is fine because you are on your own and you can decide for yourself. But you cant tell me you dont get pissed if you play a random 2on2 and your ally QQs midgame due to some drop, even though you did equal damage to your enemy? There is a reason why desertion is a felony. Wars cannot be won if soldiers start running off the battlefield when it gets tough. A commander who recycles despite his team still trying to win deserves a ban just as much as F4 deserters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, that's the beauty of the RTS aspect of this game, you CAN (provided you understand the RTS mechanics at play and have some experience with the game) really tell when a game is truly won or lost in most cases. Dragging out the game beyond that point is just a colossal waste of time. When it's a clear loss, F4 or recycling certainly shouldn't be frowned upon.
That being said, there's people out there who F4 or quit at the first sign of trouble, THAT is definitely something that we as a community should frown upon. They need to give the alien commander too an option to resign his base, that will put him on par with the marine commander and make these kind of F4 events uncommon, since either the individual player will stick with the commander decision or the commander will resign for his team. Commanders tend to be the more sensible individuals on a team, they have a bigger understanding of and view on the underlying RTS mechanics and are therefore ultimately the one's that should bear the team 'resign' responsibility.
It seems like a lot of people seem to feel that once a game has almost irrevocably shifted so that one side will win, its pointless to continue. I don't think so at all - after all the point is to have fun, improve your skills, and learn to work the best you can with what you're given.
I guess I'm in the minority here, but although you certainly want to try to win and that is the goal the team strives for, I often find myself having more fun when we're faced with an insurmountable challenge - I find it enormously fun to hold out for as long as possible, to make them really fight for every inch of space. It's a huge challenge and valuable learning experience when the balance is suddenly so tipped and you are forced to do what you can with very little. Maybe a team can't win, but it's a victory of a different sort if you manage to hold off that first exosuit rush with nothing but skulks, though the next one will surely beat you.
That said, I confess not everyone agrees this, so a voting system would be ideal for me. I don't want 1/3 of the team to f4 when 2/3 want to keep playing, because then you've just sabotaged the ability of the majority of players to keep having fun in the game. But if most people want it to end and there's a voting system, I get that, and that's fine!
<!--quoteo(post=1983138:date=Sep 25 2012, 06:10 PM:name=Duckey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Duckey @ Sep 25 2012, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems like a lot of people seem to feel that once a game has almost irrevocably shifted so that one side will win, its pointless to continue. I don't think so at all - after all the point is to have fun, improve your skills, and learn to work the best you can with what you're given.
I guess I'm in the minority here, but although you certainly want to try to win and that is the goal the team strives for, I often find myself having more fun when we're faced with an insurmountable challenge - I find it enormously fun to hold out for as long as possible, to make them really fight for every inch of space. It's a huge challenge and valuable learning experience when the balance is suddenly so tipped and you are forced to do what you can with very little. Maybe a team can't win, but it's a victory of a different sort if you manage to hold off that first exosuit rush with nothing but skulks, though the next one will surely beat you.
That said, I confess not everyone agrees this, so a voting system would be ideal for me. I don't want 1/3 of the team to f4 when 2/3 want to keep playing, because then you've just sabotaged the ability of the majority of players to keep having fun in the game. But if most people want it to end and there's a voting system, I get that, and that's fine!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its certainly a difference of opinion. To me the entire reason I am playing the game is to win. If I know I can no longer win, then I might be able to have a little fun goofing around or practicing a certain skill, but much of the fun and nearly all the drive to play hard is gone.
Positive feedback loops. Once a team obtains an upper hand it is often advantageous to hold that upper hand. Especially in cases where your opponent is in a position where their only viable option is to hive/CC rush, you just hold position and be wary of those desperation attacks. This way you minimize your risk of losing to your own mistakes and maximize your chances of winning... The downside is that this strategy creates a situation where you are not encouraged to attack and the opponent can not harm you by attacking. Every minute that passes makes the game more stale and victory more certain for either team. This can often lead to a 5-20min turtle, even though the end result is already sealed.
Now, I personally see admitting defeat in such situations as good manners. No reason to go wasting everyone's time in a boring turtle-cracking exercise. Have a try or two and see if you can still surprise and turn the game around. If not, and the said desperation moves have proven futile, gg out and have a new round.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I tend to F4 when the other team is clearly skill stacked. I refuse to participate on that kind of game, or more accurately, circle jerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> = "If i think someone is better than me, i give up." Bad news for you, you wont improve by beating weaker players over and over. You get better at any game by playing agains better players and learning from them. Btw: Do you know of any teamsport that has the option for one team to surrender? It would become boring to watch sports...
<!--quoteo(post=1983219:date=Sep 26 2012, 12:29 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Sep 26 2012, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Btw: Do you know of any teamsport that has the option for one team to surrender? It would become boring to watch sports...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Btw. Do you know of any teamsport that gives the winning team more players on the field (~upgrades) or allows them to ignore half of the goals (~ spare hives/ccs)?
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1983111:date=Sep 26 2012, 01:33 AM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Sep 26 2012, 01:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983111"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->F4 = deserting your team. gg in Starcraft 1on1 is fine because you are on your own and you can decide for yourself. But you cant tell me you dont get pissed if you play a random 2on2 and your ally QQs midgame due to some drop, even though you did equal damage to your enemy? There is a reason why desertion is a felony. Wars cannot be won if soldiers start running off the battlefield when it gets tough. A commander who recycles despite his team still trying to win deserves a ban just as much as F4 deserters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1983219:date=Sep 26 2012, 10:29 AM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Sep 26 2012, 10:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->= "If i think someone is better than me, i give up." Bad news for you, you wont improve by beating weaker players over and over. You get better at any game by playing agains better players and learning from them. Btw: Do you know of any teamsport that has the option for one team to surrender? It would become boring to watch sports...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not about desertion, it's not even about winning/losing, it's about alleviating boredom. When one team spawns and dies, spawns and dies, because they have 0 tech against full tech, and the other team are too incompetent to finish you, because they'd rather piss around and get their K/D ratio up to 10x because they have fully upgraded everything and you have level 0 basic nothing, how is that about skill, how is that about learning?
That becomes stale and boring and causes people to quit the server. Better to keep the players on the server and start a new round than have to find a new server at the end of the round because everyone got bored and left.
I can say you don't truly understand how NS works. F4 has been a valid way to concede since way back in NS1, you can't write off 10 years of accepted community action because your mis-guided principles believe that it is better to die for nothing that live to fight another day. Maybe you should stop playing computer games and sign-up to the military if you feel so strongly about wasting your time and life for the cause.
Oh, and just because it is a felony in the US (whatever felony means), it is a military crime, with military punishment and military prison in the UK. It has nothing to do with the criminal system, it is purely a breach of contract with your employer, it just so happens in this case the employer has rights to jail you for that breach, along with many other breaches. No other company apart from the military has the right to jail you for breaking your contract though. Your viewpoint that the way it is in America is how it should be seen by the world is naive at best.
Lol. First off, im not American and im not in the military. By felony i simply meant serious crime. 2nd, I played a lot of NS1 and I cant remember a single (good) Server where F4ing was accepted. You seem to have a problem with spawncamping the last hive. That is a very specific situation and it should be addressed. Maybe we should get rid of the K/D? Maybe we need spawn protection or no/less res for spawnkilling? Staying in the game till the end is simply good sportsmanship. Football games do neither end if one team is ahead 3:0 at halftime.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
lol, Why do you keep bringing in sports references?
In tennis, after the halfway point, does the leading player get given a racket twice the size of his original racket because of his superiority? In football, when a team is 3:0 up, do they get upgraded to allow faster movement, and more shooting power?
Bringing up sports which are linear from start to finish, to compare with a game where one team techs faster than the other when they are 'winning' is ridiculous.
My example was but one, the same holds true for aliens spawn killing marines, except the Marine Comm can sell the IP's. Although you also consider that a crime :P
The difference between football and NS is that when you are 3:0 down with 15 minutes to go, you still have a chance to score 3 or 4 goals and make a comeback, when you are tech wiped in NS2, there is no chance of making that comeback. GG is the call when you lose and F4.
Did you watch the stream of the Wasabi cup or any other Competitve NS2 stream? When the team knows it's game over, they call GG and F4. This is a key difference between NS2 and sports. In sports you are limited solely by the time or score, in NS2 time and score are irrelevant, it's about tech, upgrades and other improvements over default players.
When the tech difference is insurmountable, what is the point carrying on? To give the other team victory? They get that when you F4, the only reason to stay alive is to give the other team a higher k/d ratio.
That is neither fun, nor conducive to getting players to play the game. I understand the point you are trying to make, but you are not seeing that when the RTS side of the game decides when a team has won or lost, F4 is a valid option. When the FPS skill of the players decides the outcome, then it's always played to the end.
<!--quoteo(post=1983230:date=Sep 26 2012, 03:02 AM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Sep 26 2012, 03:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Staying in the game till the end is simply good sportsmanship. Football games do neither end if one team is ahead 3:0 at halftime.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are alot of other games and sports out there, that accept abandoning, u know :>? Poker and boxing for example.
If the enemy own the full map u can give up(if u dont hiding four dual exos somewhere :>). There is no reason to stay . Its lost. And it IS good sportmanship to 1. realize that and 2. to accept this by all players.
<!--quoteo(post=1983219:date=Sep 26 2012, 11:29 AM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Sep 26 2012, 11:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->= "If i think someone is better than me, i give up." Bad news for you, you wont improve by beating weaker players over and over. You get better at any game by playing agains better players and learning from them. Btw: Do you know of any teamsport that has the option for one team to surrender? It would become boring to watch sports...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, I don't play games to become better at playing games - I do it for fun. It's no fun to have a game so imbalanced from the start that most of it's features are irrelevant. Also, if the opposite team engineered the game to be so imbalanced, I refuse to give them the satisfaction, because I don't condone such poor sportsmanship and carelessness for the people you're playing against. In this case F4ing and leaving the server are justified, IMO.
@greedy What do poker and boxing have in common? They are not team sports. As I said before it is totally fine to give up if you are on your own. It is also fine if you are in a clan and you as a team decide to give up. It is not fine in public games. @Rowen You may play for fun, but you may as well ruin the fun for others if you F4 at the sight of stronger foes. How can you ascertain that your team comrades are weaker than your enemy? By leaving you throw the game. Edit: By the way F4ing and leaving the server are not the same. You are free to leave a server whenever you want but dont block the slots in the readyroom. @ride I keep bringing up sport references because team spirit is the same in sports or esport. I dont either know any team based shooters where it is common or accepted that half a team goes spectator just because the other team is winning a round. And to debunk your football argument, did you ever see a football team throw the towel after a red card? Of course it is difficult to win short-handed but it is good sportsmanship to finish a game. I dont know what games you watched in the wasabi cup but I didnt see any games where half of the losing team suddely went to the ready room. Almost each one of them kept trying till the end until either they were wiped or their captain called gg. This is the difference you dont seem to understand: You have to act as one if you play in a team. Deciding for yourself to QQ is selfish. You seem all hyped up about your fictional scenario of 3 fades camping around each ip and not killing them off. If this regulary happens to you, you should find a server with a better community.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2012
F4 is perfectly reasonable when the game is clearly over and I'd say that is the only reason to F4, but I'd rather sit out the match in any case. I'm of the breed of gamers (in pub games), that if we play bad we deserve to be punished for it, besides its even more fun to kill upgraded careless enemies, while lacking them yourself.
However if you don't want to play the round, because of other reasons or have to do other stuff, I would rather have those players leave the server and get some new people in that want to play instead of taking up a slot, there is no reason to idle.
Spectating is kinda similar and whenever I go into a pub server I have no control over, to record me some footage. I always ask if the people on there are ok with it as well. Communication goes both ways :P
F4'ing should be reserved for situations where one team has control, and the victory, and refuses to finish the game. If you don't want to lose, I can't help you. It will happen. On a larger scale game, with much more quantifiable victory conditions (BF3 for example), it would be pretty terrible if the game always ended because one team raged out due to seeing the difference in tickets between the teams.
On an aside, however, I have not really seen F4'ing be a real issue. It is more of a pet peeve. Seriously, most games I have been in are devoid of ragequits, F4's, and grand scale whining. Maybe I am lucky, but I know this will probably change on release.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1983219:date=Sep 26 2012, 02:29 AM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Sep 26 2012, 02:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->= "If i think someone is better than me, i give up." Bad news for you, you wont improve by beating weaker players over and over. You get better at any game by playing agains better players and learning from them. Btw: Do you know of any teamsport that has the option for one team to surrender? It would become boring to watch sports...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, lots of sports (but usually not at the professional level) have <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercy_rule" target="_blank">mercy rules </a>which allow them to end a game early if one side has been dominating. At the professional level, teams in a dominating position usually put in second-string players or backups later in the game, because its generally frowned upon to run up the score on a weaker team, which is why you don't usually see the mercy rule on the professional level. The point is that surrendering/conceding/resigning is common in team games and sports.
Comments
1. The marines can end they game but they won't cause they are just all waiting for duel exo's and the aliens don't want to wait.
2. Many times the respawn for aliens can become quite long, either at the very begining of the round or at the end where spawn times can easily get to 60 seconds or more.
Another big reason why either side will f4 is due to players seeing the game turn into a turttle match and last forever. Rather sitting is spawn and playing with themselves they f4 to give the other side a player bonus to end the game faster.
The one or two players that don't want to f4 and look upon the rest of their team in disgust and call them cowards, in a 13 and 2 game.
The eight or nine players that are sitting in the ready room and looking at the players that won't f4 saying their either afk or having too much arrogance.
Imho there is no logic in F4'ing unless teams are something like 2 vs 8 with the enemy team not willing to even out.
Especially during a Beta phase i consider F4'ing borderline retarded. Too many people min-maxing their gameplay around static cookie cutter "play to win"-strats and when those fail at the first try, they just throw the table over like some huffy kids.
It's just such an sad tradition that leads to tons of boring rounds. The worst part being that way too many teams don't even try to win a round after a big push-back.
We lost our only locked down hive to 1 hive aliens? Recycle!
I just don't understand it..
In all those years of playing NS i've seen the most amazing comebacks in any competitive game ever. Rounds that dragged on for over an hour with no real progress, until that one big push comes along or a lucky ninja marine gets out of containment to establish a new PG outside of base.
It's these epic moments that make NS special and memorable! Not the rounds where you just steamroll the enemy team in 5-10 minutes. These 5-10 minute rounds are usually as boring as watching paint dry because they are way to predictable.
And then we have those rounds where the whole Kharaa team is confused, because Marines recycled their base. It happens so often that both teams think "Damn we are screwed, let's wait for them to end it!" at the same time, but only Marines have the ability to actually recycle and end it. Often it's just a lone Alien realizing what happened and it just kills the CC on it's own while rest of the Kharaa team is mostly busy with "waiting for the marines to end it".
F4 is the even worse version of that.. when you F4 you are not ending the round, you are just making the teams even more uneven, giving your team an even harder time which usually results in even more drawn out rounds.
Sure a "surrender vote" could be an viable option but can it really be an solution? I'm gonna predict that barely any surrender votes will get trough and when they don't get trough the vote starter will just F4 and thus manage to sabotage the round anyway.
In the end, it's an community problem you can't fix trough any game mechanics or features. Because F4'ing is simply a community accepted version of rage-quitting...
What really annoys me is that F4'ers often tend to kill team morale. Have one guy go "GAME OVER MAN LET'S F4!" and the other players will stop trying to win, waiting for the debate on "should we F4?" to end, which is never actually lead.
If you think the round is lost then just leave to another server, but don't ruin it for everybody else who still wants to fight because they know that there is still a chance to win. Is it a small chance? That depends on the situation and players, but yes mostly it's small chances. But the smaller the chance for it to work, the bigger the satisfaction when it ends up actually working!
But when everybody stops trying, why even bother playing at all? Feels like people just want to play "easy pickings" rounds and when they don't get them, or the tide of the round turns against them, they just yell for the round to get restarted..
I refuse to call these people "Gamers"! A Gamer <b>loves </b>a challenge, he is constantly looking for a new and bigger challenge. Because a Gamer knows that you can only improve by going above your limits and getting your nose bloody. No risk - no reward, high risk - high reward it's as simple as that.
Oh and let's not ignore the other side of all this: Ending rounds trough F4/Recycling basically cheats the winning team out of their win. Just because some people don't like the idea of losing doesn't mean they should be able to take away the fun of winning for the other team, that's just cheap...
If you are on the losing team, and are playing 5 vs 10 people, you can ask the other team to either finish up quickly, or change sides for balance for the rest of the game. If the 10 players stay on their team, but spend the time fortifying the resource towers, and don't try and end it, I don't think they deserve the victory, and it's acceptable to F4, to get a more interesting game.
If aliens says "we have nothing, come kill us" and the marines says "wait, we need 10 exos", then I don't think either side will have a big rush of excitement when the last hive dies.
rebirth: I have either been extremely lucky in my general NS2 experience or you are greatly exaggerating the problems. I don't think I have ever seen a team F4 just because they didn't win with a quick vanilla strat, nor have I seen a single game where both teams thought they had lost and attempted to F4/recycle at the same time (seriously?!?).
Like I've said previously I honestly think that most players will reserve F4ing until a game is A) almost certainly lost and B) the winning team has stalled out and is just containing the losing team in their base/hive for the forseeable future. As others have said, under these conditions when the inevitable victory finally comes I really don't think it gives the team any more satisfaction than if the losers had said "well done, you beat us, let's start over and see if we can get one back".
Just to repeat - I think that when a team F4s out they should <u>lose</u> and the other team should <u>win</u>, like the mp_autoconcede CVAR worked in NS1. Some people seem to complain that people F4 just to avoid having a loss registered in their stats (seems petty if you ask me, but hey).
I refuse to call these people "Gamers"! A Gamer <b>loves </b>a challenge, he is constantly looking for a new and bigger challenge. Because a Gamer knows that you can only improve by going above your limits and getting your nose bloody. No risk - no reward, high risk - high reward it's as simple as that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine coms can call the game by recycling the Inf portals, i rarely see a lot of f4ing going on on the marine side.
However, Some coms say "screw it! they aint taking us easy" and push extra portals to get the spawn times down. Due to this, you have some REALLY epic last stand draw outs with aliens hammering the main base.
The waiting room chat after usually has good natured ribbing like "man, took you aliens long enough!"
However, Idon't see a lot of last stand scenarios for aliens. Usually if it's late in the game and you are down to one hive with not much chance to push back, massive F4ing goes on. There are a few reason for this:
Marines have personal res re-cycling. There are usually some 2 chair weapons floating around still and shotguns are beings pumped out still. Once you are confined to your room, these guns are constantly dropped, picked up, and used again. This makes it fun for the marines to still push back aliens and pack a punch.
Marines has passive, at spawn, upgrades if arms lab is still up. They can jump right into combat with these. ready to fight to the death. Aliens need to hatch, press b, choose upgrades, evolve then fight. It breaks the momentum.
3 Infantry portals are much more steady and reliable spawn system than eggs when your base is getting hammered, especially with ranged weapons.
having quite a few MACs in your base from the match really makes it hard to destroy stuff, making the last stand much longer.
This is really down to pure fun last stand situations, not really balance related. It does show you why so many games end on the aliens side by half the team F4ing. They simply do not have the tools and systems available to them to keep out a sustained push when they are down to 1 hive,
i mean seriously, you cant even get people to map vote half the time so why add in a feature that will not be used and is already in place via f4.
i mean seriously, you cant even get people to map vote half the time so why add in a feature that will not be used and is already in place via f4.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree, but the actual point of this post was to see if people thought F4ing was an inherently bad thing to do or if it should be incorporated into the game in situations that warranted it. I personally am unsure about a voting system and would rather just see the mp_autoconcede function like in NS1.
I think you have a point, 3DKnight, it would be great if the game never led to drawn out stalemates but as it is I think conceding defeat and letting the other team have their well-earned victory without actually having to wait around for the final push should be perfectly acceptable.
Then again, I see people still thinking they can win (e.g.) marines down to 2 chairs and 3 RTs at 20 min into the game with exos camping around the chairs without being able to push, etc.
Sure, if somehow the good people on the other team quit and what's left are complete and utter noobs, it's possible to have some low chance of turning the game around, but in most cases it's game over when one team has a distinct res advantage and the other team can't push anywhere.
The most useful feature I've seen is "surrender" voting in console in this case, which is what I'd usually do.
I also don't understand server admins' "Move or you'll be kicked" when you F4/spec behavior. Most people in the ready room really do want to play a game; they're not just randomly griefing - just not a hopeless one ;-) .
Another solution might be to allow observers above the player count (e.g.) 3 or 4 dedicated observer slots. That way maybe admins will feel better about letting people observe when they're not taking "the chance of somebody else to 'play' a game which is already lost anyway."
- People leave the losing side and are replaced by more skilled players or people leave the winning side and are replaced by less skilled players (occurs only in public matches)
- The losing side employs some sort of rush tactic (powernode or CS rush typically, or the old ARC train rushes; primarily occurs in comp matches)
However, these cases are rare. They may occur in only 1 out of 10 or 20 losing public matches and even rarer in comp matches (e.g. the 3rd ARC v Nzxl game in their first casted matchup is the only one I know of). Most often, the match has been determined by the 15 min mark and the next 5, 10, 15 min are just a formality.
This exactly. I pretty much only play gathers now when I play NS2. The realisation when a game is lost is normally much better amongst regular gather players, but in pubs, I often find players have no clue about when the game is over. Players want to play on forever because they think they can do something, when the reality 99.9% of the time is very different.
As alien comm on pubs, I used to hate the fact that I can't sell IP's when the game is dead and buried, so F4 is essential. What is more essential is an understanding of when a game is won or lost.
Generally games that are close can go either way and go to their conclusion. When one team has a serious res and tech advantage, there is normally no point to carry on, but you can't explain this to people who don't have an understanding of the deeper strategic subtleties of the game. How can you explain to someone new, that because marines have 7 RN, 2 CC's (and have done for the last 5 mins) and you have only 3 RN, and are now down to 1 hive, that the game is beyond the point of no return? Most players never go beyond the FPS side of the game, and thus struggle to grasp the concepts of the tipping point of a NS2 match.
This is not a slight on them, it's just the way it is. I never used to know when a game was over, now I do...
gg in Starcraft 1on1 is fine because you are on your own and you can decide for yourself. But you cant tell me you dont get pissed if you play a random 2on2 and your ally QQs midgame due to some drop, even though you did equal damage to your enemy?
There is a reason why desertion is a felony. Wars cannot be won if soldiers start running off the battlefield when it gets tough.
A commander who recycles despite his team still trying to win deserves a ban just as much as F4 deserters.
gg in Starcraft 1on1 is fine because you are on your own and you can decide for yourself. But you cant tell me you dont get pissed if you play a random 2on2 and your ally QQs midgame due to some drop, even though you did equal damage to your enemy?
There is a reason why desertion is a felony. Wars cannot be won if soldiers start running off the battlefield when it gets tough.
A commander who recycles despite his team still trying to win deserves a ban just as much as F4 deserters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
That being said, there's people out there who F4 or quit at the first sign of trouble, THAT is definitely something that we as a community should frown upon. They need to give the alien commander too an option to resign his base, that will put him on par with the marine commander and make these kind of F4 events uncommon, since either the individual player will stick with the commander decision or the commander will resign for his team. Commanders tend to be the more sensible individuals on a team, they have a bigger understanding of and view on the underlying RTS mechanics and are therefore ultimately the one's that should bear the team 'resign' responsibility.
I guess I'm in the minority here, but although you certainly want to try to win and that is the goal the team strives for, I often find myself having more fun when we're faced with an insurmountable challenge - I find it enormously fun to hold out for as long as possible, to make them really fight for every inch of space. It's a huge challenge and valuable learning experience when the balance is suddenly so tipped and you are forced to do what you can with very little. Maybe a team can't win, but it's a victory of a different sort if you manage to hold off that first exosuit rush with nothing but skulks, though the next one will surely beat you.
That said, I confess not everyone agrees this, so a voting system would be ideal for me. I don't want 1/3 of the team to f4 when 2/3 want to keep playing, because then you've just sabotaged the ability of the majority of players to keep having fun in the game. But if most people want it to end and there's a voting system, I get that, and that's fine!
I guess I'm in the minority here, but although you certainly want to try to win and that is the goal the team strives for, I often find myself having more fun when we're faced with an insurmountable challenge - I find it enormously fun to hold out for as long as possible, to make them really fight for every inch of space. It's a huge challenge and valuable learning experience when the balance is suddenly so tipped and you are forced to do what you can with very little. Maybe a team can't win, but it's a victory of a different sort if you manage to hold off that first exosuit rush with nothing but skulks, though the next one will surely beat you.
That said, I confess not everyone agrees this, so a voting system would be ideal for me. I don't want 1/3 of the team to f4 when 2/3 want to keep playing, because then you've just sabotaged the ability of the majority of players to keep having fun in the game. But if most people want it to end and there's a voting system, I get that, and that's fine!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its certainly a difference of opinion. To me the entire reason I am playing the game is to win. If I know I can no longer win, then I might be able to have a little fun goofing around or practicing a certain skill, but much of the fun and nearly all the drive to play hard is gone.
Thats what i always hear.
So yes, i think it should be frowned upon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Many times... and yet some determination has won out with a handful of team mates banding together and we win.
Now, I personally see admitting defeat in such situations as good manners. No reason to go wasting everyone's time in a boring turtle-cracking exercise. Have a try or two and see if you can still surprise and turn the game around. If not, and the said desperation moves have proven futile, gg out and have a new round.
=
"If i think someone is better than me, i give up." Bad news for you, you wont improve by beating weaker players over and over. You get better at any game by playing agains better players and learning from them.
Btw: Do you know of any teamsport that has the option for one team to surrender? It would become boring to watch sports...
Btw. Do you know of any teamsport that gives the winning team more players on the field (~upgrades) or allows them to ignore half of the goals (~ spare hives/ccs)?
gg in Starcraft 1on1 is fine because you are on your own and you can decide for yourself. But you cant tell me you dont get pissed if you play a random 2on2 and your ally QQs midgame due to some drop, even though you did equal damage to your enemy?
There is a reason why desertion is a felony. Wars cannot be won if soldiers start running off the battlefield when it gets tough.
A commander who recycles despite his team still trying to win deserves a ban just as much as F4 deserters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1983219:date=Sep 26 2012, 10:29 AM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Sep 26 2012, 10:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->=
"If i think someone is better than me, i give up." Bad news for you, you wont improve by beating weaker players over and over. You get better at any game by playing agains better players and learning from them.
Btw: Do you know of any teamsport that has the option for one team to surrender? It would become boring to watch sports...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not about desertion, it's not even about winning/losing, it's about alleviating boredom. When one team spawns and dies, spawns and dies, because they have 0 tech against full tech, and the other team are too incompetent to finish you, because they'd rather piss around and get their K/D ratio up to 10x because they have fully upgraded everything and you have level 0 basic nothing, how is that about skill, how is that about learning?
That becomes stale and boring and causes people to quit the server. Better to keep the players on the server and start a new round than have to find a new server at the end of the round because everyone got bored and left.
I can say you don't truly understand how NS works. F4 has been a valid way to concede since way back in NS1, you can't write off 10 years of accepted community action because your mis-guided principles believe that it is better to die for nothing that live to fight another day. Maybe you should stop playing computer games and sign-up to the military if you feel so strongly about wasting your time and life for the cause.
Oh, and just because it is a felony in the US (whatever felony means), it is a military crime, with military punishment and military prison in the UK. It has nothing to do with the criminal system, it is purely a breach of contract with your employer, it just so happens in this case the employer has rights to jail you for that breach, along with many other breaches. No other company apart from the military has the right to jail you for breaking your contract though. Your viewpoint that the way it is in America is how it should be seen by the world is naive at best.
2nd, I played a lot of NS1 and I cant remember a single (good) Server where F4ing was accepted.
You seem to have a problem with spawncamping the last hive. That is a very specific situation and it should be addressed. Maybe we should get rid of the K/D? Maybe we need spawn protection or no/less res for spawnkilling?
Staying in the game till the end is simply good sportsmanship. Football games do neither end if one team is ahead 3:0 at halftime.
In tennis, after the halfway point, does the leading player get given a racket twice the size of his original racket because of his superiority?
In football, when a team is 3:0 up, do they get upgraded to allow faster movement, and more shooting power?
Bringing up sports which are linear from start to finish, to compare with a game where one team techs faster than the other when they are 'winning' is ridiculous.
My example was but one, the same holds true for aliens spawn killing marines, except the Marine Comm can sell the IP's. Although you also consider that a crime :P
The difference between football and NS is that when you are 3:0 down with 15 minutes to go, you still have a chance to score 3 or 4 goals and make a comeback, when you are tech wiped in NS2, there is no chance of making that comeback. GG is the call when you lose and F4.
Did you watch the stream of the Wasabi cup or any other Competitve NS2 stream? When the team knows it's game over, they call GG and F4. This is a key difference between NS2 and sports. In sports you are limited solely by the time or score, in NS2 time and score are irrelevant, it's about tech, upgrades and other improvements over default players.
When the tech difference is insurmountable, what is the point carrying on? To give the other team victory? They get that when you F4, the only reason to stay alive is to give the other team a higher k/d ratio.
That is neither fun, nor conducive to getting players to play the game. I understand the point you are trying to make, but you are not seeing that when the RTS side of the game decides when a team has won or lost, F4 is a valid option. When the FPS skill of the players decides the outcome, then it's always played to the end.
There are alot of other games and sports out there, that accept abandoning, u know :>? Poker and boxing for example.
If the enemy own the full map u can give up(if u dont hiding four dual exos somewhere :>). There is no reason to stay . Its lost. And it IS good sportmanship to 1. realize that and 2. to accept this by all players.
"If i think someone is better than me, i give up." Bad news for you, you wont improve by beating weaker players over and over. You get better at any game by playing agains better players and learning from them.
Btw: Do you know of any teamsport that has the option for one team to surrender? It would become boring to watch sports...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, I don't play games to become better at playing games - I do it for fun. It's no fun to have a game so imbalanced from the start that most of it's features are irrelevant. Also, if the opposite team engineered the game to be so imbalanced, I refuse to give them the satisfaction, because I don't condone such poor sportsmanship and carelessness for the people you're playing against. In this case F4ing and leaving the server are justified, IMO.
What do poker and boxing have in common? They are not team sports. As I said before it is totally fine to give up if you are on your own. It is also fine if you are in a clan and you as a team decide to give up. It is not fine in public games.
@Rowen
You may play for fun, but you may as well ruin the fun for others if you F4 at the sight of stronger foes. How can you ascertain that your team comrades are weaker than your enemy? By leaving you throw the game.
Edit: By the way F4ing and leaving the server are not the same. You are free to leave a server whenever you want but dont block the slots in the readyroom.
@ride
I keep bringing up sport references because team spirit is the same in sports or esport. I dont either know any team based shooters where it is common or accepted that half a team goes spectator just because the other team is winning a round.
And to debunk your football argument, did you ever see a football team throw the towel after a red card? Of course it is difficult to win short-handed but it is good sportsmanship to finish a game.
I dont know what games you watched in the wasabi cup but I didnt see any games where half of the losing team suddely went to the ready room. Almost each one of them kept trying till the end until either they were wiped or their captain called gg. This is the difference you dont seem to understand: You have to act as one if you play in a team. Deciding for yourself to QQ is selfish.
You seem all hyped up about your fictional scenario of 3 fades camping around each ip and not killing them off. If this regulary happens to you, you should find a server with a better community.
However if you don't want to play the round, because of other reasons or have to do other stuff, I would rather have those players leave the server and get some new people in that want to play instead of taking up a slot, there is no reason to idle.
Spectating is kinda similar and whenever I go into a pub server I have no control over, to record me some footage. I always ask if the people on there are ok with it as well. Communication goes both ways :P
On an aside, however, I have not really seen F4'ing be a real issue. It is more of a pet peeve. Seriously, most games I have been in are devoid of ragequits, F4's, and grand scale whining. Maybe I am lucky, but I know this will probably change on release.
"If i think someone is better than me, i give up." Bad news for you, you wont improve by beating weaker players over and over. You get better at any game by playing agains better players and learning from them.
Btw: Do you know of any teamsport that has the option for one team to surrender? It would become boring to watch sports...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, lots of sports (but usually not at the professional level) have <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercy_rule" target="_blank">mercy rules </a>which allow them to end a game early if one side has been dominating. At the professional level, teams in a dominating position usually put in second-string players or backups later in the game, because its generally frowned upon to run up the score on a weaker team, which is why you don't usually see the mercy rule on the professional level. The point is that surrendering/conceding/resigning is common in team games and sports.