Marines not being punished for losing "ghost" structures//scouting with command chairs

DanielD · September 2012

I was watching a bit of the Wasabi Cup just now, and in the game between arc and poke on veil, arc drops a CC in cargo to deny the alien team that hive location. I get that this is 15 res just sitting around not being used, but the fact that you get ALL of it back when the ghost structure gets destroyed seems like the marine comm gets off too easy, considering how powerful it is to be able to force an alien team to the hive location you want them at. On veil this is very strong, and on a map like mineshaft forcing the aliens to take a 2nd hive at the far location is basically gg.

Same thing for when marines try an agressive push on a hive and the armory/phase gate get killed before they start being built. Full refund seems too good of a deal, shouldn't the aliens be rewarded for "destroying" a structure?

Secondarily (and I bet this is an engine issue that can't be resolved) doesn't this mechanic mean that rather then having to spend the couple res for a scan, a marine comm can just try to drop a chair in a hive location to see if there's a hive there yet?

Mountain out of a molehill maybe, thoughts?

Kouji_San · September 2012

The res invested into that scan vs comm chair is not something that should be done early game. Aliens can simply deny that area and also not destroy that ghost CC, forcing the marines to keep that res invested if it is misplaced. I think it is a bit too risky.

I for one would like to see a ghost structure getting destroyed once infestation gets to it or on hive locations it gets destroyed once a hive is being placed there. A small timer I think is required, so aliens cant abuse it when marines expand to another techpoint.

But there is of course some stuff on the other side of the dime here. It is an investment in terms of res, perhaps quite an interesting one even...

Soul_Rider · September 2012

The problem I have is that most players, even now, are unaware that crashing the big blue box gives back all the marine resources.

Also, I was playing a 1v1 today (waiting for players), and the scheming Marine comm just dropped blue boxes on everything so I couldn't drop anything without placing whips to destroy his boxes first :P

He knew full well he would get his res back or the RT/CC built if he got there first... Too advantageous for the marines in current form...

Edit -

As alien com, if you want to know if they have a CC, just try and place a hive, also if you cyst to an area, you also find you can't drop a harvester because it is occupied, even though you can't see the extractor.

Kouji_San · September 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Sep 27 2012, 12:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I was playing a 1v1</div>
You're fired Soul Rider, this ain't no Starcraft(2). Game ain't balanced for 1v1!

Nah realy, pretty damn funneh story :D

Krovakon · September 2012

I'd say have structures that are "Destroyed" while ghosted only give back ~80% of the resources used to "Drop" it.

Xarius · September 2012

Just have alien hive drop override the ghost cc structure?

NeoRussia · September 2012

No need to make the marine team lose money for denied structures, just make it so you can drop structures over marine placement. Easy fix. Can also make it so that the ghost structures don't disappear for the marine team until they scout a structure over it, so you can't scout harvester or spawn locations by dropping extractors.

RobustPenguin · September 2012

Or maybe just make it so you lose the res in the structure over time, say you loose 100% of the res in it after 45 seconds if its denied. So if you dump a RT and noone builds it for 45 seconds then a skulk comes along, you dont get anything back. Obviously give it 5/10 seconds before you start losing the res. That or make it so ghosts cant be placed in rooms without vision on them

Kasperle · September 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Sep 26 2012, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983496"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I was watching a bit of the Wasabi Cup just now, and in the game between arc and poke on veil, arc drops a CC in cargo to deny the alien team that hive location. I get that this is 15 res just sitting around not being used, but the fact that you get ALL of it back when the ghost structure gets destroyed seems like the marine comm gets off too easy, considering how powerful it is to be able to force an alien team to the hive location you want them at. On veil this is very strong, and on a map like mineshaft forcing the aliens to take a 2nd hive at the far location is basically gg.

Same thing for when marines try an agressive push on a hive and the armory/phase gate get killed before they start being built. Full refund seems too good of a deal, shouldn't the aliens be rewarded for "destroying" a structure?

Secondarily (and I bet this is an engine issue that can't be resolved) doesn't this mechanic mean that rather then having to spend the couple res for a scan, a marine comm can just try to drop a chair in a hive location to see if there's a hive there yet?

Mountain out of a molehill maybe, thoughts?</div>

It doesnt matter. Marine com cant be faster then an alien com dropping fast hive. U can see in the recording, that the alien commander was about 2 sec earlier inside the hive then scrajm in the command chair. Before u argue, that the alien com could start quiet far away from the hive... everyone can place a fast hive, it doesnt matter who the actual com is. Nearest player jumps in, places the hive and logs out ... no chance for any marine to be faster then alien...

Locklear · September 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kasperle @ Sep 27 2012, 08:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>It doesnt matter. Marine com cant be faster then an alien com dropping fast hive. U can see in the recording, that the alien commander was about 2 sec earlier inside the hive then scrajm in the command chair. Before u argue, that the alien com could start quiet far away from the hive... everyone can place a fast hive, it doesnt matter who the actual com is. Nearest player jumps in, places the hive and logs out ... no chance for any marine to be faster then alien...</div>

My thoughts exactly.

Soul_Rider · September 2012

Not to a fast hive drop no, but beyond that?

RT's can be covered near alien spawns, so marines can tell by the first one destroyed where aliens spawn (although attempting to drop a cc always lets them know anyway).

Essentially the whole system has problems because both sides can drop Command structures in unsighted rooms, although only marines have the ability to block RTs anywhere on the map..

Kasperle · September 2012

blocking RTs in early game is a very bad idea, at least in competetive play.

Scrajm · September 2012

Wow, did my CC block get its own thread?

Xarius · September 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>RT's can be covered near alien spawns, so marines can tell by the first one destroyed where aliens spawn (although attempting to drop a cc always lets them know anyway).</div> I don't even see how this is a good idea, if you start in sub and you drop an extractor to reactor core there's no way to know whether or not they started in atrium or data core.

Surely the easier way to find out where they start is to, you know, just look at the area until you see the infestation splash somewhere, then you know precisely what hive room they are in. And you won't have locked up some crucial res at the start of the game. (Because if you're playing a smart time, they may just leave your ghost structure there for a little longer, that's 10 res you could have invested in getting an obs quicker or an actual harvester)

DanielD · September 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Sep 27 2012, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>No need to make the marine team lose money for denied structures, just make it so you can drop structures over marine placement. Easy fix. Can also make it so that the ghost structures don't disappear for the marine team until they scout a structure over it, so you can't scout harvester or spawn locations by dropping extractors.</div>

I like this change.

HeatSurge · September 2012

I like the idea of res punishment for "destroying" blue structures. It'll make it a little more tactical as to when to place buildings.

Xarius · September 2012

That's a terrible idea imo, it's so easy for a skulk to just jump in and cancel structures, it'll slow down the pace of marine structure placement simply because the commander will want to make sure the area is entirely clear before he puts it down.

Techercizer · September 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Sep 27 2012, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983884"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>That's a terrible idea imo, it's so easy for a skulk to just jump in and cancel structures, it'll slow down the pace of marine structure placement simply because the commander will want to make sure the area is entirely clear before he puts it down.</div>
Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Marines are already lightning fast compared to alien expansion, and if the marines can't tap the structure to solidify it or gun down the skulk before he gets there (ignoring them in the process), I don't mind a tiny bit of res going to the little guy for being quick on his feet.

I'd like to see 90% of res returned upon structure ghost cancellation. Something like a cost of 1 for an RT, 2 for a PG; small amounts that can be important in the moment without leading to a major res imbalance.

Xarius · September 2012

Well I agree their pace is fast compared to aliens these days, but that has more to do with how they gimped alien expansion speed and made it increasingly vulnerable. I'd rather they fixed that than just slowed marines down. Also a 1 or 2 t.res penalty will not step commanders from placing comm chairs to block hives early on, the strategic advantage is well worth that cost. Instead you're penalising normal use of structures and the res flow of a commander who doesn't 'abuse' ghost structures. Really not right to penalise the majority of the commanders for something only a small amount of commanders are doing.

Just have hive placement override CC placement, done deal. (And way easier for new commanders to grasp than having this 'hidden' res loss every time your blueprint gets poofed)

Techercizer · September 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Sep 27 2012, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Well I agree their pace is fast compared to aliens these days, but that has more to do with how they gimped alien expansion speed and made it increasingly vulnerable. I'd rather they fixed that than just slowed marines down.</div>
This change doesn't really have to slow Marines down. Like I said, it takes a single tap of the builder to solidify a building and stop it from ghosting. If the marine and com are communicating, it should be much easier for marines to drop a structure than for aliens to cancel it, even in the middle of a brawl in the room the structure is going down in.

Edit response: If coms want to spend a bit of res to block CCs, why not let them? They give up 2-4 res in exchange for a few second delay on the early hive drop. It's not a free delaying tactic any more; it's a strategic response with pros and cons. I think having ghost structures be worth fighting over would make for much more exciting and enjoyable gameplay. It just feels wrong to be basically punished as an alien for not waiting for a marine to start building; there should be a benefit for attacking early and a benefit for attacking later.

HeatSurge · September 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Sep 27 2012, 03:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983884"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>That's a terrible idea imo, it's so easy for a skulk to just jump in and cancel structures, it'll slow down the pace of marine structure placement simply because the commander will want to make sure the area is entirely clear before he puts it down.</div>

... and isn't that awesome? Teamwork/tactics ftw. It'll make it a bit more challenging to place aggressive phase gates and armories as well ;-) .

Techercizer · September 2012

Yeah, add some risk/reward for hot-dropping structures in combat. Aliens have to put theirs in at lowest maturity. It's an asymmetric dichotomy.

Xarius · September 2012

Well, I concede it's probably not that terrible of an idea after all :P. Wouldn't mind testing it at least. Though it should be made clearly visible/noticeable for the commander, maybe even with an audio cue.

Tweadle · September 2012

How about we go back in time and learn some lessons from another game which addressed the exact same problem.

Stergeary · September 2012

Just make it so ghost structures are invisible to aliens, aliens cannot interact with ghost structures, ghost structures can be placed on anything but cannot be constructed by a Marine unless it is a valid location, and ghost structures can be recycled instantly for 100% resources. This way, the ghost structures will simply serve as templates for the Marines to build for the Commander, and will provide no information and no hindrance to either team, and will function as a sort of "build command", as it was intended.

RustInPieces · September 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobustPenguin @ Sep 27 2012, 11:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>make it so ghosts cant be placed in rooms without vision on them</div>

+1
(RT/CC only though)

Ghosts are still better than the alternative (Onos blocking).

Marines not being punished for losing "ghost" structures//scouting with command chairs

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