Very hard to come back from behind
Bob Loblaw
Join Date: 2012-09-29 Member: 161079Members
Join Date: 2012-09-29 Member: 161079Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Any ideas?</div>I've noticed that it is very hard for a team that gets behind by a few res nodes to come back from behind and win. I can't remember seeing many games where a team that was noticeably behind was able to come back and win. Maybe once with Marines using an exo push to come back from slightly behind, but never if they have lost the ability to make exo's. For aliens to come back from behind is even harder.
And yet games will often drag on for another 10 or more minutes after the end is inevitable. Usually some players from the doomed side will leave, which makes it an even more depressing experience for those remaining.
Any ideas how to fix this? I guess an easier "surrender" interface might help get things over with so the next game can begin.
Or maybe there's a way to balance things so comeback games are a little more feasible, so the side that is behind has some small hope of turning the tide and winning?
And yet games will often drag on for another 10 or more minutes after the end is inevitable. Usually some players from the doomed side will leave, which makes it an even more depressing experience for those remaining.
Any ideas how to fix this? I guess an easier "surrender" interface might help get things over with so the next game can begin.
Or maybe there's a way to balance things so comeback games are a little more feasible, so the side that is behind has some small hope of turning the tide and winning?
Comments
The only way a team can legitimately come back from a losing battle is through working teamplay and sheer strategy. If there is no teamwork, then there is zero chance of coming back, but if there is communication and the players agree to change it up and look for a weakness in the enemy, thos echances improve. This is why the first few minutes of a Natural Selection game are critical. All of the resource nodes are unclaimed, and the teams have a roughly even shot at the same number of nodes. If you allow the other team to cripple your resource income by not protecting those assets, the fault for being in that losing battle in the first place falls on the players, not on the game.
Having said all that, however, I agree that the inevitable losses can drag out and there is no way to end a game with some sort of surrender function. especially when your team is down 4+ people.
- Recycle/F4
- Drag out the match and hope that they make a mistake/enough of their players boredquit
- Try a rush (works best as aliens since you can powernode rush)
Marines at 3/3 are insane. If aliens lose their upgrades, there's no hope.
That being said, it is a strategy game at heart, so if you can't keep up with the opposing team it's only natural that you end up being defeated. (Which is not to say there shouldn't be some 'recoup' mechanisms in place. And there are, i.e existing lifeforms don't immediately lose their second hive abilities, etc)
Another path that would be interesting to explore imo would be to allow aliens to unlock tier 2 abilities (or maybe just a limited amount) with just 1 hive (and tier 3 with just 2 hives) but at a much greater cost. This would not only multiply the amount of strategies available to the alien khammander (adding much more depth to gameplay, i.e he could focus just on extractors instead of hives initially) and would give aliens a much better fighting chance even if they don't manage to get a second hive or end up losing that second hive.
The solution? Tie W3/A3 to the second comm chair. Tie dual minigun exos to the third comm chair (like stomp is to the third hive).
However, it SHOULD be hard to come back from behind, since this is a strategy game, not counter strike where perhaps that last person could shoot the whole enemy team in the head.
It would be harder to implement and will never make it into 1.0, but a force should get stronger the more land it holds. This prevents stalemates in games.
Land = harvesters as if you control a harvester in a room you essentially control the room. The more harvesters you hold, the bigger your numbers (health and damage) get and the harder it is for the enemy to ignore your girth. Simple, yet effective.
The solution? Tie W3/A3 to the second comm chair. Tie dual minigun exos to the third comm chair (like stomp is to the third hive).
However, it SHOULD be hard to come back from behind, since this is a strategy game, not counter strike where perhaps that last person could shoot the whole enemy team in the head.
It would be harder to implement and will never make it into 1.0, but a force should get stronger the more land it holds. This prevents stalemates in games.
Land = harvesters as if you control a harvester in a room you essentially control the room. The more harvesters you hold, the bigger your numbers (health and damage) get and the harder it is for the enemy to ignore your girth. Simple, yet effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the best solution. Force 3/3 to coincide with having more than one base. I'm pretty sure Starcraft 2 forces a tech upgrade before allowing for 2/2 and 3/3.
It makes it so there is literally only one way to win the game, in some ways it's even less interesting/more simplistic than the standard unreal tournament/quake style deathmatch game, because while those generally just let you win on frags, your method for acquiring frags can change quite drastically from map to map and from gun to gun and is easily modifiable with mutators.
With an NS style strategy approach however... it in some ways drags that down. Yes maps can be different from each other, but you're building exactly the same harvester in every room, and there isn't as much interesting stuff you can do with level geometry when you compare it to things like quake 3 bounce pads, and in some ways the desire to control the landscape is even more simplistic because you just get flat 'money' from it, whereas in classic deathmatch games you could have an area that drops ammo, health, a particular gun, or commands a good view of the field. None of those are really important in NS2 compared to simply getting more money. It's like deathmatch if every room had a little bit of basic weapon ammo in it, and you control more rooms to get more ammo so you can shoot more. It'd be kinda boring.
I find the 4X and particularly civilisation approach to strategy games to be much better, there are multiple approaches to winning and generally only one or two favor absolute global domination. The point of a strategy game is not about 'controlling all the land' in the same way the point of quake 3 is not 'being really good with the rocket launcher'. Yes it one of the approaches you can take to victory, but the game has (or at least should have) far more dimensions than that. The general appeal of a strategy game (or rather the general <i>unique</i> appeal of one, the thing it does better than most other genres) is that it rewards intelligent play. I would also suggest that it perhaps should not rely on reflexes as much so that the focus can be better placed on the intellectual side of things, as generally thinking smart under pressure is not a thing that happens.
To this end you have things like turn based strategy which is almost entirely about how well you understand the game, and how well you can make decisions, with no time or control skill pressure at all. All the challenge comes from your reasoning skills, and some of the best turn based strategies afford you far more things to consider than 'does this get me more land? yes/no'.
I see no reason why that should not also be the case for NS. At the moment winning or losing is decided almost entirely by money, to the detriment of things like player cooperation and individual skill. NS should be about personal skill at arms, interpersonal skill at teamwork, and intellectual skill at strategy. Being as it is after all an FPS/RTS and concessions must be made from it being a pure strategy game.
At the moment however it's entirely about a very narrow spectrum of strategy, for a very narrow section of the team, and the other two areas only come into play at all when there is not economic disparity. Got the same tech level? Skill matters. Got more guns than the enemy? Skill rapidly ceases to matter because no amount of aiming ability or teamwork will help you, because the flat stat boosts the enemy gets from having more money far outdistance the usual skill gap between teams. Honestly it's a pretty crummy FPS a lot of the time because it's effectively pay-to-win in terms of fighting extremely overpowered enemies that you simply can't afford the gear to compete with. It's not a flaw in the shooter mechanics I don't think because there's a lot of interesting things available, all the aliens classes have cool things they can do and marines themselves can do quite a lot of things. It's just that you very rarely get to use any of them against each other because everything is based on money, and it is rare that both teams actually can afford decent gear.
I find this makes for a very unsatisfying game most of the time. I found NS1 far more enjoyable because I spent most of my time when I was playing it fighting with pretty relaxed resource limits, or against equally funded enemies. It seems like I spent far more time going skulk vs rifle marine, or with a big pile of guns at base to kit out with when I died. Those were fun games. NS2 has yet to really do that for me because you start buying upgrades about two minutes into the game and the teams never seem to be on even footing.
Moral of the story I don't think that even a well composed team, full of people willing to work together can overcome the huge res advantage that results from the other team falling behind. It's almost like once you fall behind there is no catching up no matter what you do.
Also, marines have so use for a 3rd techpiont, while aliens need 3 to succesfully fend off 2 cc marine tech (umbra, vortex vs. exo., jp)
Maybe lifeform evolutions (like leap) should be tied to a physical structure, like upgrades, so that aliens can keep them once a hive dies. It would have to be restricted to one for each lifeform, and only 2 lifeforms per hive. This extra structure would have to be attached to the hive (like powerpacks used to be) so they cant be hidden, and multiple hives are required to upgrade all lifeforms.
For instance: Primary hive has skulk and fade attachment, so that you have leap and blink. Secondary hive has gorge and lerk (BB and spores), but gets destroyed. Now on one hive, aliens still have leap and blink, but no BB or spores, and cannot research any more due to no space, and no 2nd hive to unlock the abilities. This is easier to come back from, but losing a hive still has a large effect.
2 hives (or 3 as the case may be) are still required to get the initial upgrades, but now some stay after they are gone, makeing it a bit easier to come back from.
(Post 1.0 of course)
Just a thought
For instance: Primary hive has skulk and fade attachment, so that you have leap and blink. Secondary hive has gorge and lerk (BB and spores), but gets destroyed. Now on one hive, aliens still have leap and blink, but no BB or spores, and cannot research any more due to no space, and no 2nd hive to unlock the abilities. This is easier to come back from, but losing a hive still has a large effect.
2 hives (or 3 as the case may be) are still required to get the initial upgrades, but now some stay after they are gone, makeing it a bit easier to come back from.
(Post 1.0 of course)
Just a thought<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting idea, but I'd say that these upgrades should be built into the hive and not another thing that has very low health that 1 marine could snipe. Also, (this goes for hive type as well) I'd like to see the ability to remove one upgrade and get another.
Ex. You have leap/blink on one hive and spores/BB on the second. The second gets destroyed by exos and you need BB to deal with them so you sack either leap or blink (no res returned) and get BB (full price). Same would go for hive type imo (remove crag and change to shift) since getting left with only your shift hive is even worse than normally getting stuck on 1 hive.
Ex. You have leap/blink on one hive and spores/BB on the second. The second gets destroyed by exos and you need BB to deal with them so you sack either leap or blink (no res returned) and get BB (full price). Same would go for hive type imo (remove crag and change to shift) since getting left with only your shift hive is even worse than normally getting stuck on 1 hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what i was thinking originally, but the hive type (crag/shade/shift) would overlap a bit. The main idea behind it being a seperate structure would be to give a clue to marines which hive has what, so each hive has varying strategic value. Aliens know what level of tech marines have via the sounds their weapons make, and what structures are in their base, marines should have the same thing.
Also, having it be a seperate structure would be easier to understand for new players since all other alien upgrades are from seperate structures. They could be "seperate but connected", as in, those tenticles comming from the front of the hive connect each lifeform attachment, and increasing the overall health pool of the hive, and having all parts share the same pool.
In my opinion, specialized hives are the only way to make aliens able to come back
But we never see this :(
Pretty much the exact opposite of what I've seen.
If your RTs are being hit repeatedly, either defend them better or go for an attack. If the aliens continue attacking your RTs during an attack, they can't defend. If they defend, they can't attack your RTs.
Also, if you're needing RTs that badly as marines, you're already in trouble since you should always have more than aliens.
What I'm referring to is that aliens depend much more on holding ground than marines do. Its not like if marines lose their 2nd cc, they lose gls and flamethrowers and a3/w3.
When aliens lose their 2nd hive they lose ALL of their important tech. Its much harder to recover from losing blink and leap than it is to recover from losing jp/exo. Marines dont lose any killing power by losing a 2nd cc (exo maybe, but it has its drawbacks). Aliens become almost useless against upgraded marines. Many think this is due to aliens not "scaling" well throughout the game, i feel that it is because too much rests on a single structure.
The way it is, if aliens lose their 2nd hive, they might as well have lost both (in most cases). Marines can hold out and push back with their advanced weapons as their tech is split up between several structures.
AA: guns; AA gets rushed down, marines still have exo and a3/w3
Arms Lab: upgrades; arms lab rushed down, still have advanced guns and special equipment.
2nd CC (and proto): special equipment; 2nd CC goes down, they still have a3/w3 and advanced guns
While aliens have
upgrade chambers; Limited choices (celerity/adren-cara/regen): This system is OK imo as it makes it possible to hide ups, and takes longer to kill each one
2nd Hive; 2nd hive goes down, loses leap, bile bomb, spores, blink
Alien upgrade structures are (arguably) more valuable than marine structures as they lose all of their important tech upon losing a single structure. Upgrades do make a difference, but they are designed to be bonuses, and dont really change how the aliens play or give them any major advantage.
Let's face it, as far as movement goes in NS2 aliens got the ###### shaft.
Powernodes make it difficult to ninja a phase gate because the Marine has to build the power, which is a noisy process (not to mention once its finished it sounds like a dumpster just dropped 100 feet). Also, if the power was already out, the lights will turn on informing any alien player passing by that there is/was marine activity in the area.
In addition, Marines will have to clear out cysts (that the commander can just spam anywhere). This will make it nearly impossible for a single Marine to sneak past the Alien team, build the power, clear out the cysts, and then build the phase gate. There is simply too much for a ninja Marine to accomplish to ninja a hive.
But hey, at least the Marines don't have to deal with Acid Rocket.
Just another layer of strategy that NS2 has removed....
Costs 30 Res.
Hivemind remembers abilities reseached that are tied to 2nd and 3rd hives
Only becomes avalible after a 2nd and 3rd hive is built.
If a 2nd or 3rd hive is destroyed, if you have reaserched hivemind, upgrade abilities are kept.
Hives then become a bit of a shell game for marines. They won't know which hive has the Hivemind.
it requires lair/armory/twilight tech, which is the equivalent of advanced armory and proto lab in ns2
hope this helps!
Just another layer of strategy that NS2 has removed....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO RFK was one of the worst aspects of NS1. The game should be about controlling resource nodes and key map areas, not marines turtling two tech points until they have enough res for a tech explosion like it was in NS1.
So you prefer 10 min games because one team has taken 70% of nodes?
Those are the worst games of all time, by 10 mins you check the map and have 30% of the nodes, GG, f4 please.
<!--quoteo(post=1985953:date=Oct 2 2012, 04:25 AM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WorthyRival @ Oct 2 2012, 04:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1985953"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not give hives a extra upgrade called Hivemind.
Costs 30 Res.
Hivemind remembers abilities reseached that are tied to 2nd and 3rd hives
Only becomes avalible after a 2nd and 3rd hive is built.
If a 2nd or 3rd hive is destroyed, if you have reaserched hivemind, upgrade abilities are kept.
Hives then become a bit of a shell game for marines. They won't know which hive has the Hivemind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like this idea. Maybe even a building that can be destroyed independently?
rines clamping the boot down? rush the power with a drifter at the same time for enzyme. power goes out in like 3 secs. kill all marines.
onos train of death incoming? hold 2 tech points and roll exos/arcs or jp/shotguns to the hives.
if you miss your chance at these turning points, you WILL lose. thats the idea of the game, work as a team when the time comes, or the enemy will stomp you fast.
<a href="http://www.twitch.tv/woods677/b/334101908" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/woods677/b/334101908</a>
The Comeback starts at about the 4 hour mark, hope you guys enjoy it :)
Those are the worst games of all time, by 10 mins you check the map and have 30% of the nodes, GG, f4 please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go bite res nodes? You don't have to hold the node to deny the other team resources. Do you prefer hour long games of trying to break a marine turtle like in NS1?
Second, chris the idea was really only for breaking stalemates and ending big turtles. It would only really start to make a difference if one team controls an overwhelming amount of territory. Im talking 8-9 res nodes to the enemies' 1.
Third, sherwood this game is supposed to be that way. If you've ever played a strategy game you'll know that once you start to fall behind it becomes exponentially more difficult to win. The zerg in starcraft 2 can rebuild their ENTIRE army all at once after a huge fight if they've been left to mine without harass. I've said it before, I'll say it again, this game is not counter-strike.
Codeine if you cant keep res nodes you dont deserve to win the game. Simple as that. If you're playing SC2 and you cant keep your mining bases you're going to lose. starcraft is a game that every strategy game should take inspiration from.