This version is so lame...
Omega_K2
Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Marines:
- Turrets are useless (old turrets should back) making base defense in pub games impossible
- Need battries again
- Shotgun is still kinda crappy. Why? Spread is random and random is bull######, falloff would have the same effect but is more skill based*
- Rifle was not adjusted to the new fade health, back then you at least had a chance with a LV3 rifle if you hit most of it*
Aliens:
- Basic movement stuff SHOULD NOT cost energy, like shadow-step, flying as lerk
- Make aliens, especially skulk faster. Skulk feels like having concrete attached to its legs
- Fix the god damn energy regen, waiting forever IS NOT fun
Bonus:
- Can't use MOUSE button 3 for voice in comm anymore
- (+ other annoying stuff)
----
* Edit 1:
It seems some people have trouble reading and understanding or missed my post regarding this, so here it is:
<!--quoteo(post=1987975:date=Oct 7 2012, 12:31 AM:name=Omega_K2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omega_K2 @ Oct 7 2012, 12:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In theory. Theory is not what happens. I tested this myself, and shotguns can 2-shot fades in a magical no-latency hitreg wonderland at point-blank range, but it is not practical. Shotguns are so <b>random</b> that it might aswell take 3 hits to kill a skulk at close rage if networking + spread comes into play.
Spread is bad, bacause it is random; randomness is not skill based. It means that even if you are spot on, you'll miss because randomness can cause you to miss. Sometimes you hit and oneshot, and sometimes you don't and do little damage.
Less spread = less randomness. It means you'll land more hits all the time, that would make the shotgun OP. Solution: DMG-falloff; long-range = litte dmg (as opposed to pellets that may or may not hit, and may do little or high damage, even at range).
LMG: Again, in theory. Rifle vs Fade is much worse ever since Fades are on 250/100. This does not apply to other classes, fade only.
Movement: At this point, Shadow-Step and Flying is fundamental to the classes. Unless you play both classes effectively by walking with W though the entire map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wilson posted a picture that shows the problem with the randomness quite well:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121703&view=findpost&p=1988004" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1988004</a>
The expected result is the opposite, and, with little spread and falloff, the result would be that. Randomness means that you can also randomly do a lot of damage at a distance, or do little damage at point-blank range.
I suggest that, if you (whoever reads this) do not understand probability read up on it or take some classes. Next step is to realize that randomness is a counter to competeiveness, at least when applied to the degree it is used with the shotgun. In small doses it can make it more fun for "casuals", in larger doses it is crap for a competive aspect. Good example is TF2, guess why leagues usually play without random crits/dmg spread.
Basically, the shotgun is supposed to work like this:
Low distance, high dmg
High distance, low dmg
This is achieved though probability, not falloff.
This means:
Low distance, high chance to hit all pellets
High distance, high chance to hit few pellts
Considering this is just a chance, this also means:
You have a chance at low distance, to hit few pellets (== Low DMG)
You have a chance at high distance, to hit all or many pellets (== High DMG)
One of the basics is that as long this is 'fair', in infinity these chances will work out.
For example, a coin toss, assuming 0.5 probabiliy per side.
In infinity, you'll have
50% heads 50% tails
If you try this 5 times, you might end up with:
80% heads 20% tails
If you try this 100 times, you might end up wtih
44% heads 46% tails
If you try this 1000000 times you might end up with
51% heads 49% tails
In the case of the shotgun, you are usually rather limited in the amount of tries you can do. For a fade? Maybe 2-3. And that is when the problem comes in, it's not enough to even out. This is less of a problem for the rifle for example, it has a high ROF and 50 shots, but the shotty doesn't.
In theory, again, this is fine though, as across many users this will even out at some point, but it is players we are dealing with here and in certain situations this can screw entire game over (imageing fighting over a PG positon, causing you to loose it because you can't deal enough dmg to cause the Fade to retreat, because of a random disadvantage, or simiarly, killing a fade because you got lucky and had that cool 220 dmg shot -- if play competively (or gathers at least), you'll agree that a losing or holding a PG in a critical location, like cargo or double on veil for example, can change the outcome of a game massively).
Now what would less spread + falloff change? The game becomes more predictable. You can achieve the same "shotguns suck at range" effect with the different that it is reliable, and they are ALWAYS bad at range and ALWAYS good at close range. If you keep some spread, it will still be sightly random, but not AS bad as it is now. (I suppose you could even try to mathematically approximate the values to it has the same "effect" on a global scale)
However, the effect on the game is much larger, since those random situations won't happen anymore and skill gives you an edge, not a pseudo-random number generator.
(Also, on a final note, the above example is massively simplifed. You could express this much more accurately, but I feel it's over the top to understand. Also, it's more complex math.)
- Turrets are useless (old turrets should back) making base defense in pub games impossible
- Need battries again
- Shotgun is still kinda crappy. Why? Spread is random and random is bull######, falloff would have the same effect but is more skill based*
- Rifle was not adjusted to the new fade health, back then you at least had a chance with a LV3 rifle if you hit most of it*
Aliens:
- Basic movement stuff SHOULD NOT cost energy, like shadow-step, flying as lerk
- Make aliens, especially skulk faster. Skulk feels like having concrete attached to its legs
- Fix the god damn energy regen, waiting forever IS NOT fun
Bonus:
- Can't use MOUSE button 3 for voice in comm anymore
- (+ other annoying stuff)
----
* Edit 1:
It seems some people have trouble reading and understanding or missed my post regarding this, so here it is:
<!--quoteo(post=1987975:date=Oct 7 2012, 12:31 AM:name=Omega_K2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omega_K2 @ Oct 7 2012, 12:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In theory. Theory is not what happens. I tested this myself, and shotguns can 2-shot fades in a magical no-latency hitreg wonderland at point-blank range, but it is not practical. Shotguns are so <b>random</b> that it might aswell take 3 hits to kill a skulk at close rage if networking + spread comes into play.
Spread is bad, bacause it is random; randomness is not skill based. It means that even if you are spot on, you'll miss because randomness can cause you to miss. Sometimes you hit and oneshot, and sometimes you don't and do little damage.
Less spread = less randomness. It means you'll land more hits all the time, that would make the shotgun OP. Solution: DMG-falloff; long-range = litte dmg (as opposed to pellets that may or may not hit, and may do little or high damage, even at range).
LMG: Again, in theory. Rifle vs Fade is much worse ever since Fades are on 250/100. This does not apply to other classes, fade only.
Movement: At this point, Shadow-Step and Flying is fundamental to the classes. Unless you play both classes effectively by walking with W though the entire map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wilson posted a picture that shows the problem with the randomness quite well:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121703&view=findpost&p=1988004" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1988004</a>
The expected result is the opposite, and, with little spread and falloff, the result would be that. Randomness means that you can also randomly do a lot of damage at a distance, or do little damage at point-blank range.
I suggest that, if you (whoever reads this) do not understand probability read up on it or take some classes. Next step is to realize that randomness is a counter to competeiveness, at least when applied to the degree it is used with the shotgun. In small doses it can make it more fun for "casuals", in larger doses it is crap for a competive aspect. Good example is TF2, guess why leagues usually play without random crits/dmg spread.
Basically, the shotgun is supposed to work like this:
Low distance, high dmg
High distance, low dmg
This is achieved though probability, not falloff.
This means:
Low distance, high chance to hit all pellets
High distance, high chance to hit few pellts
Considering this is just a chance, this also means:
You have a chance at low distance, to hit few pellets (== Low DMG)
You have a chance at high distance, to hit all or many pellets (== High DMG)
One of the basics is that as long this is 'fair', in infinity these chances will work out.
For example, a coin toss, assuming 0.5 probabiliy per side.
In infinity, you'll have
50% heads 50% tails
If you try this 5 times, you might end up with:
80% heads 20% tails
If you try this 100 times, you might end up wtih
44% heads 46% tails
If you try this 1000000 times you might end up with
51% heads 49% tails
In the case of the shotgun, you are usually rather limited in the amount of tries you can do. For a fade? Maybe 2-3. And that is when the problem comes in, it's not enough to even out. This is less of a problem for the rifle for example, it has a high ROF and 50 shots, but the shotty doesn't.
In theory, again, this is fine though, as across many users this will even out at some point, but it is players we are dealing with here and in certain situations this can screw entire game over (imageing fighting over a PG positon, causing you to loose it because you can't deal enough dmg to cause the Fade to retreat, because of a random disadvantage, or simiarly, killing a fade because you got lucky and had that cool 220 dmg shot -- if play competively (or gathers at least), you'll agree that a losing or holding a PG in a critical location, like cargo or double on veil for example, can change the outcome of a game massively).
Now what would less spread + falloff change? The game becomes more predictable. You can achieve the same "shotguns suck at range" effect with the different that it is reliable, and they are ALWAYS bad at range and ALWAYS good at close range. If you keep some spread, it will still be sightly random, but not AS bad as it is now. (I suppose you could even try to mathematically approximate the values to it has the same "effect" on a global scale)
However, the effect on the game is much larger, since those random situations won't happen anymore and skill gives you an edge, not a pseudo-random number generator.
(Also, on a final note, the above example is massively simplifed. You could express this much more accurately, but I feel it's over the top to understand. Also, it's more complex math.)
Comments
Can't say I entirely agree with the rest of your points. Shotguns are devastating at W1 in the hands of a good player. I think W3 Rifles still do a pretty good job vs fades, though the new fade blink is kind of ######. I don't personally like needing energy to fly with the lerk, though I can understand why it's there. Not a big fan of adren either, at least not of the incredibly slow regen rate that comes with it. (Why is there a downside to this upgrade? There shouldn't be any, the regen rate should remain proportionately the same)
Skulk movement speed I hope they will fix in 222, when proper wall jumping comes back?
(Would love if it becomes like a mix of wall jump and some sort of bhop to hold momentum)
I'm not really seeing most of these arguments.
- Turrets are useless (old turrets should back) making base defense in pub games impossible
- Need battries again
- Shotgun is still kinda crappy. Why? Spread is random and random is bull######, falloff would have the same effect but is more skill based
- Rifle was not adjusted to the new fade health, back then you at least had a chance with a LV3 rifle if you hit most of it
Aliens:
- Basic movement stuff SHOULD NOT cost energy, like shadow-step, flying as lerk
- Make aliens, especially skulk faster. Skulk feels like having concrete attached to its legs
- Fix the god damn energy regen, waiting forever IS NOT fun
Bonus:
- Can't use MOUSE button 3 for voice in comm anymore
- (+ other annoying stuff)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I have to agree.
Don't agree with your point on weapons. Shotgun has a decent reach and accuracy. It kills skulks in one hit. Rifle seems powerful enough to me.
They should put sentries back to how they were some builds ago, then limit it to 2 sentries per battery or a certain amount per robotics factory.
I'm not really seeing most of these arguments.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In theory. Theory is not what happens. I tested this myself, and shotguns can 2-shot fades in a magical no-latency hitreg wonderland at point-blank range, but it is not practical. Shotguns are so <b>random</b> that it might aswell take 3 hits to kill a skulk at close rage if networking + spread comes into play.
Spread is bad, bacause it is random; randomness is not skill based. It means that even if you are spot on, you'll miss because randomness can cause you to miss. Sometimes you hit and oneshot, and sometimes you don't and do little damage.
Less spread = less randomness. It means you'll land more hits all the time, that would make the shotgun OP. Solution: DMG-falloff; long-range = litte dmg (as opposed to pellets that may or may not hit, and may do little or high damage, even at range).
LMG: Again, in theory. Rifle vs Fade is much worse ever since Fades are on 250/100. This does not apply to other classes, fade only.
Movement: At this point, Shadow-Step and Flying is fundamental to the classes. Unless you play both classes effectively by walking with W though the entire map.
you sure showed him
Agree but it's pointless to discuss. Flayra has talked about this at great length and his reasons are sound. Improvements to come.
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>Need battries again<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Disagree. Battery packs were stupid, they just bypassed map design.
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>Shotgun is still kinda crappy. Why? Spread is random and random is bull######, falloff would have the same effect but is more skill based<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Pffffffptlkmwergle. Shotguns are the most insanely overpowered weapon in the game by a long shot, moreso than GLs. Watch any competitive game, the entire marine team will buy shotguns and annihilate everything. If you don't agree, you're probably having trouble using it. In that case all I'll say is that you should only shoot when the crosshair is completely covered with part of an alien. If there's any gap, lots of damage will be ignored. A random spread is perfectly valid for gameplay reasons and if you use it the way I described here the fact that it's random won't change your ability with it at all.
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>Rifle was not adjusted to the new fade health, back then you at least had a chance with a LV3 rifle if you hit most of it<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Not sure what you mean by this. Implied parity between a 50 res lifeform to a zero res marine?
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>Basic movement stuff SHOULD NOT cost energy, like shadow-step, flying as lerk<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Disagree but only because FT should be for energy sapping for the purpose of trapping lifeforms, rather than just being another dps weapon. If FT remains just another dps gun, might as well remove energy costs for movement. It is interesting that all lifeforms have some kind of energy based movement ability though: belly slide, leap, flapping, blink, charge. Just belly slide, flapping and shadow-step feel trivial and therefore just annoying rather than something you have to actually consider.
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>Make aliens, especially skulk faster. Skulk feels like having concrete attached to its legs<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Skulks without celerity are too slow. Celerity is too important.
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>Fix the god damn energy regen, waiting forever IS NOT fun<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The only lifeform I have energy trouble with is the Onos. Everything else seems balanced.
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>(+ other annoying stuff)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Why bother?
I would like to see skulks that are faster but have less health or do less damage to marines.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/FVqgz.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Here is another, slightly further away but with weapons2, did not kill:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/QNxXX.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Spread is bad, bacause it is random; randomness is not skill based. It means that even if you are spot on, you'll miss because randomness can cause you to miss. Sometimes you hit and oneshot, and sometimes you don't and do little damage.
Less spread = less randomness. It means you'll land more hits all the time, that would make the shotgun OP. Solution: DMG-falloff; long-range = litte dmg (as opposed to pellets that may or may not hit, and may do little or high damage, even at range).
LMG: Again, in theory. Rifle vs Fade is much worse ever since Fades are on 250/100. This does not apply to other classes, fade only.
Movement: At this point, Shadow-Step and Flying is fundamental to the classes. Unless you play both classes effectively by walking with W though the entire map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SG is fine...I get 1 shotted plenty as both lerk and skulk (carapce helps but not much for skulk), SG do in no way need to have a more reliable field of fire...currently thats the only thing that grants the skulks the occasional 2 shot death (as some of the pellets from first shot miss due to random pattern shift)
Wow...ok so your saying a 0 Res marine (simply with LMG..should be able to Solo a 50 Res alien life form? I am just waiting for the next post about how Onos should be able to be taken down by 2 LMG marines.
Turrets are crap yes but they are as good or better than whips (but thats not exactly hard...unless turrets randomly fired at marines)
Come across as a 1 shot (though you dont know if someone else got 1 pistol or lmg round to also hit you...damage is hard to notice).
Still 30 res lifeform dieing in about 2 seconds from 2 SG rounds?
Why will lerk likely have carapace? Its not like marines who automatically get armour upgrades...your whole team has to take the hive abilities so weighing up best benefit means carapace is not the likely choice for 1st hive (or even 2nd (though more likely)...feign death is more useful for fades than cara...and silence is fun).
Adrenaline (shift) is much more useful (faster eggs, adrenalin, celerity)...without adren lerk is pretty gimped and cant realy do much for long.
Sorry but SG is OP'd...it costs 20 res but good teams can keep that 1 SG going almost all game....so its relative costs a lot less.
Aliens cant revive a dead onos or skulk (hmm maybe this is how hypermutation could be made useful).
Neo you seem to miss the point about skulks being 1 shotted...its not to say marines get SG for this purpose...but that when it is used against the default alien lifeform it kills in 1 shot.
Can you imagine if lerks bite was an instant 1 shot kill against anyone but A3, JP's or exo's?
That is the reverse of how SG works currently...the outcry would lead to the site melting down from whinging.
[EDIT] I wasn't.
<!--quoteo(post=1987996:date=Oct 7 2012, 02:42 AM:name=PersianImm0rtal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PersianImm0rtal @ Oct 7 2012, 02:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A way better easy fix, would be just to limit the number of turret per room to just 1 or 2, but make them how they used to be, that would be way better..
I would like to see skulks that are faster but have less health or do less damage to marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tbh, I don't like limits per room because the rooms are just too map based (large and/or complex rooms might neeed more turret, while a simple box room can be covered by one). I kinda liked the "fragile" approach, I would not mind to see the old sentry (with old dmg), but the very fragile version of it for possibly lower res cost and faster build time; that way a gorge could easily clear them out with bilebomb or any other class with a bunch of hits, but not without losing some health.
The original version (high hp, high dmg) lead to problems though, where it made turtling very good because it took forever to kill a turret (and especailly a turret farm); I think it's agreeable that it should not be back in the same form. It got better with bile and onos, but still could be a problem at times.
As for limits, I think a limit per robotics is smarter and possibly requiring a robotics factory to be build nearby (but that radius should be LARGE, like going at least past 1 room, for example that in tram you could still build in the tunnels if you have a robitics in warehouse)
- Turrets are useless (old turrets should back) making base defense in pub games impossible
- Need battries again
- Shotgun is still kinda crappy. Why? Spread is random and random is bull######, falloff would have the same effect but is more skill based*
- Rifle was not adjusted to the new fade health, back then you at least had a chance with a LV3 rifle if you hit most of it*
Aliens:
- Basic movement stuff SHOULD NOT cost energy, like shadow-step, flying as lerk
- Make aliens, especially skulk faster. Skulk feels like having concrete attached to its legs
- Fix the god damn energy regen, waiting forever IS NOT fun
Bonus:
- Can't use MOUSE button 3 for voice in comm anymore
- (+ other annoying stuff)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>1)</b> Turrets are crap I agree, but 'making base defense in pub games impossible' is because the turret is an offensive structure now, not defensive.
<b>2)</b> Shotguns seem fine, In face they seem to be better then they have been in a long time. Random spread is anotting though I agree.
<b>3)</b> 'Basic movement stuff SHOULD NOT cost energy, like shadow-step, flying as lerk' Shadow Step and Lerk flying <b><u>SHOULD</u></b> cost energy.
<b>4)</b> 'Make aliens, especially skulk faster.' Erm Celerity? Wall jump? and to get places faster also try using shortcuts like Vents and smashed windows.
<b>5)</b> 'Fix the god damn energy regen, waiting forever IS NOT fun' Its working fine, If it was faster it would be stupid. But Adrenaline enery regen could use an increase