I don't see why we can't have the old turrets back, the main reason it was changed back then was because aliens didn't have siege abilities such as bile and onos. Now we have those they can counter it. Just don't re add the wallhack they used to have
Because they had the brilliant idea to make them absolutly useless few builds ago. Before they were OK, but now they are absolutly terrible and useless for base defense.
I see the point in going into lockdown mode, but really that doesn't mean you should leave the game with a broken turret implemtation for release.
<!--quoteo(post=1988318:date=Oct 7 2012, 10:31 PM:name=Volcano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Volcano @ Oct 7 2012, 10:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988318"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see why we can't have the old turrets back...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the design philosophy behind this is that it should be "Player vs Player", not "Player vs Structures".
Having players fight structures for most of the game rather then other players should be avoided.
So, turrets were changed to be effective vs structures rather then players. Flayra has admitted that its currently not working, but he would rather leave them in there in a seemingly "broken" state, rather then remove turrets now and try introduce them again later...
<!--quoteo(post=1988350:date=Oct 7 2012, 10:55 PM:name=salor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (salor @ Oct 7 2012, 10:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988350"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because the design philosophy behind this is that it should be "Player vs Player", not "Player vs Structures".
Having players fight structures for most of the game rather then other players should be avoided.
So, turrets were changed to be effective vs structures rather then players. Flayra has admitted that its currently not working, but he would rather leave them in there in a seemingly "broken" state, rather then remove turrets now and try introduce them again later...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Still wondering why Aliens are allowed to get a TON of structures that can injure/inhibit Marine movement and weapons, but GOD FORBID Marines get a single one so they don't have to beacon every time a single skulk feels like munching on a power core. (Exaggeration but true enough)
There has been plenty of arguments for turrets. I don't think there is much point in discussing this right now. When 1.0 is out, hopefully Flayra has time to discuss turrets again, and try and give them a purpose ingame.
If you want static defences as a marine, you need mines right now. Aliens have ofcourse plenty of structures that can annoy marines until the aliens arrive to defende hive or whatever is under attack.
<!--quoteo(post=1988352:date=Oct 8 2012, 06:08 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Oct 8 2012, 06:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still wondering why Aliens are allowed to get a TON of structures that can injure/inhibit Marine movement and weapons, but GOD FORBID Marines get a single one so they don't have to beacon every time a single skulk feels like munching on a power core. (Exaggeration but true enough)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whips and hydras are both easily killed or avoided. They are, however, a decent deterrent sometimes.
If sentries were about as powerful as hydras that would work pretty well I think. Hell, limit them to 2-3 a CC just like how hydras work per gorge.
Meh, there'no point, UWE has already made it clear they are not going to change it before 1.0. Never mind that the majority of the community clearly is in favour of properly functioning sentries. (Preventing them from being spammed and 'destroying gameplay' is incredibly easy.)
They were 'made useless' at at a time when lerk gas didn't obstruct them, umbra wasn't yet in, bilebomb wasn't yet on the gorge, onos had much less HP and powernodes were significantly tankier. All that has been changed now and I can honestly not see turret farms work against a somewhat competent pub team. UWE however refuses to acknowledge this.
I agree, but it's a bit late to do a U-turn on them now it seems. The change did seem to come out of nowhere and I wish people would have had a chance to give their feedback before it was implemented. Turning a defensive structure into a purely offensive structure (When there's already a marine structure that specifically has this role) is not something that's even a good idea on paper.
<!--quoteo(post=1988315:date=Oct 7 2012, 09:20 PM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Al_Ka_Pwn @ Oct 7 2012, 09:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems like just popping down a few turrets at base would be easier and cheaper than constantly beaconing. Why does no one ever use them?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because they were "OP" so whiners will be whiners, on to the next whine
Please destroy this thread before it reaches page 50 again or whatever. All the ideas in the world have been thrown at this issue, just wait until well after 1.0
Oh and if you want to know why turrets don't work, it is because the code seems to be broken since... forever. I wouldn't be surprised if this was intentional, as I am sure new iterations are tested before release.
<!--quoteo(post=1988350:date=Oct 8 2012, 06:55 AM:name=salor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (salor @ Oct 8 2012, 06:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988350"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because the design philosophy behind this is that it should be "Player vs Player", not "Player vs Structures".
Having players fight structures for most of the game rather then other players should be avoided.
So, turrets were changed to be effective vs structures rather then players. Flayra has admitted that its currently not working, but he would rather leave them in there in a seemingly "broken" state, rather then remove turrets now and try introduce them again later...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which could be easily avoided with a Turret cap, Just like there is a hydra cap.
<!--quoteo(post=1988350:date=Oct 8 2012, 07:55 AM:name=salor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (salor @ Oct 8 2012, 07:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988350"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because the design philosophy behind this is that it should be "Player vs Player", not "Player vs Structures".
Having players fight structures for most of the game rather then other players should be avoided.
So, turrets were changed to be effective vs structures rather then players. Flayra has admitted that its currently not working, but he would rather leave them in there in a seemingly "broken" state, rather then remove turrets now and try introduce them again later...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's we only have player vs player combat and no ridiculous things like alien structures that shoot small spikes and can be dropped by gorges or long tentacles that even punch grenades back. Hell, could you imagine how ruined the game would be if marines had something that would cause explosions if aliens walk over it? Unthinkable.
--
And with a normal tone on the second part: This is completly stupid. Making them like this was stupid in the first place, and refusing to change them back, aka leave that part of the game in a broken state because big bad buddy 1.0 is coming is just the icing on the cake.
Because the developers deliberately tried to come up with a version of turrets that
a) was so useless that noone would ever use them in game, but
b) maintained the item as a gameplay feature so it could be included in promo material to remind potential purchasers of that scene in the "Aliens" directors cut
This was explicitly explained by Charlie in <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/331846110" target="_blank">a previous Q&A.</a> (around 5:00)
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Sentries used to be very good, such that they got spammed and many matches turned into multihour sentry turtlefests (leading some comms to believe that the key to winning was to start spamming sentries from the start). Having played in enough of those types of matches to last a lifetime, I was happy to see them nerfed into oblivion. However, they are so useless now that I question why they are in the game anymore (besides being a newb comm trap). I see a couple of choices: - Remove them (Player vs NPC is not very satisfying in an online multiplayer game) - Make them strong, but capped (an NS1-style three per turret factory solution would seem to work here) - Switch the ARC and sentry (so that it becomes an offensive support weapon rather than defensive turtle one) - Give the marine a temporary, deployable sentry instead (i.e. the offensive turret as <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121017&view=findpost&p=1976336" target="_blank">Runteh has proposed</a>)
I hope they just end up capping them (either per node or per TF), then at least we will be able to have a small amount of strong 'deterring' sentries in the game. 3 - 4 Per powernode/tf would suffice, there's plenty of counters and they would remain a big and fragile investment still.
I just hope the devs realise that if they don't want them to interfere with PVP play, they have to change how they work dramatically. To think about their design from a perspective where they work for pubs and competitive as well, and then work backwards from that.
Lowering or raising ROF/damage is not going to work, we've seen countless iterations and this 'tuning' of damage hasn't worked.
<!--quoteo(post=1988603:date=Oct 8 2012, 11:33 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Oct 8 2012, 11:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just hope the devs realise that if they don't want them to interfere with PVP play, they have to change how they work dramatically. To think about their design from a perspective where they work for pubs and competitive as well, and then work backwards from that.
Lowering or raising ROF/damage is not going to work, we've seen countless iterations and this 'tuning' of damage hasn't worked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
is this drastic enough ? <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121730" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=121730</a>
Marines need a structure similar to whips and hydras for area defence, so that a marine doesn't have to camp each base to prevent a lone skulk from killing the power, observatory or phase gate... or so that the commander doesn't have to beacon and destroy forward momentum on the marine side, again, because of a single skulk.
Unless UWE intends to remove whips and hydras, the game is chock full of player versus structure, so in my mind, that ship has sailed.
The problem is player versus <i>multiple</i> structures. Since there are already hard cap limits on hydras and clogs, the "arbitrary structure limit" ship has also sailed, too. So I fail to see why a hard cap on decent, defensive sentry turrets is not the easiest and preferred solution.
The most ridiculous part of charlie's opinions on player vs. structure is that the MAIN OBJECTIVE of this game is to attack a structure! Even now!
Not to mention all the structures marines have to actually fight to get their way depending on how the gorges and alien comm place them. Whats the difference between a few hydras and a few turrets to a bile bomb gorge or a grenade launcher marine?
Turrets never in my experience contributed to a stalemate as bile bombs completely annihilate turrets. Its like he was playing a different game from all of us.
In the end you're just going to make it so one power node can only support three turrets that are actually good at defending. I know you are. So just do it now please.
<!--quoteo(post=1988642:date=Oct 8 2012, 10:20 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Oct 8 2012, 10:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines need a structure similar to whips and hydras for area defence, so that a marine doesn't have to camp each base to prevent a lone skulk from killing the power, observatory or phase gate... or so that the commander doesn't have to beacon and destroy forward momentum on the marine side, again, because of a single skulk.
Unless UWE intends to remove whips and hydras, the game is chock full of player versus structure, so in my mind, that ship has sailed.
The problem is player versus <i>multiple</i> structures. Since there are already hard cap limits on hydras and clogs, the "arbitrary structure limit" ship has also sailed, too. So I fail to see why a hard cap on decent, defensive sentry turrets is not the easiest and preferred solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seconded
<!--quoteo(post=1988643:date=Oct 8 2012, 10:32 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Oct 8 2012, 10:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The most ridiculous part of charlie's opinions on player vs. structure is that the MAIN OBJECTIVE of this game is to attack a structure! Even now!
Not to mention all the structures marines have to actually fight to get their way depending on how the gorges and alien comm place them. Whats the difference between a few hydras and a few turrets to a bile bomb gorge or a grenade launcher marine?
Turrets never in my experience contributed to a stalemate as bile bombs completely annihilate turrets. Its like he was playing a different game from all of us.
In the end you're just going to make it so one power node can only support three turrets that are actually good at defending. I know you are. So just do it now please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This too.
It amazes me that people complain about sentries being effectively removed. The game is much better without them. I have never been playing and thought, man this would be a lot more fun if only we had sentries. I simply don't understand that mindset at all. Even if you think the idea of sentries is cool, after playing with them for a while it becomes obvious they just create frustration. Even when limited like hydras I don't think they increase enjoyment or add to the game.
On the alien side whips are not a problem because they are effectively useless. They are just area denial when put around a corner that slows marines for a few seconds. Hydras can also be easily taken out by one marine and just prevent them from running in close to a hive/rt and axing it right away. They are also limited to avoid spam.
I don't think anyone is arguing that because aliens have structures that can attack players that it means marines must have some as well. My opinion on it is the less player vs structure combat the better. Even chomping on RTs is boring and should be limited as much as possible. No one wants to spend a game constantly chewing RTs even if it wins you the game. Players want to have fun and the fun thing in FPS games is engaging in combat with other players. I would rather have fun and lose than do boring tasks but win.
Sentries won't allow you to leave the base completely unmanned or else they would be over powered. Just like hydras they should be easily killed without any players to protect them. So I think the argument that you need something to defend an area where players aren't is just dumb. The players on your team should spread out evenly across the map. If the base is under attack from 1 skulk then 1 marine goes back and kills it while the rest push forward.
IMO player vs structure combat should be limited as much as possible, sentry guns are just not fun. I even think mines are bad. It takes no skill to use them and it's just a cheap kill. Perhaps if skulks could destroy them in 1-2 parasites it would encourage more strategic placement, rather than just spamming them around your feet.
Comments
UWE has recognized this is indeed a problem, but it will have to wait until after 1.0
I see the point in going into lockdown mode, but really that doesn't mean you should leave the game with a broken turret implemtation for release.
Because the design philosophy behind this is that it should be "Player vs Player", not "Player vs Structures".
Having players fight structures for most of the game rather then other players should be avoided.
So, turrets were changed to be effective vs structures rather then players. Flayra has admitted that its currently not working, but he would rather leave them in there in a seemingly "broken" state, rather then remove turrets now and try introduce them again later...
Having players fight structures for most of the game rather then other players should be avoided.
So, turrets were changed to be effective vs structures rather then players. Flayra has admitted that its currently not working, but he would rather leave them in there in a seemingly "broken" state, rather then remove turrets now and try introduce them again later...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Still wondering why Aliens are allowed to get a TON of structures that can injure/inhibit Marine movement and weapons, but GOD FORBID Marines get a single one so they don't have to beacon every time a single skulk feels like munching on a power core. (Exaggeration but true enough)
If you want static defences as a marine, you need mines right now. Aliens have ofcourse plenty of structures that can annoy marines until the aliens arrive to defende hive or whatever is under attack.
Whips and hydras are both easily killed or avoided. They are, however, a decent deterrent sometimes.
If sentries were about as powerful as hydras that would work pretty well I think. Hell, limit them to 2-3 a CC just like how hydras work per gorge.
I was a big fan but in the current state they are just a waste of res and pointless in game.
They were 'made useless' at at a time when lerk gas didn't obstruct them, umbra wasn't yet in, bilebomb wasn't yet on the gorge, onos had much less HP and powernodes were significantly tankier. All that has been changed now and I can honestly not see turret farms work against a somewhat competent pub team. UWE however refuses to acknowledge this.
because they were "OP" so whiners will be whiners, on to the next whine
Oh and if you want to know why turrets don't work, it is because the code seems to be broken since... forever. I wouldn't be surprised if this was intentional, as I am sure new iterations are tested before release.
Having players fight structures for most of the game rather then other players should be avoided.
So, turrets were changed to be effective vs structures rather then players. Flayra has admitted that its currently not working, but he would rather leave them in there in a seemingly "broken" state, rather then remove turrets now and try introduce them again later...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which could be easily avoided with a Turret cap, Just like there is a hydra cap.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121017&hl=" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...=121017&hl=</a>
redux:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121536&hl=" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...=121536&hl=</a>
Having players fight structures for most of the game rather then other players should be avoided.
So, turrets were changed to be effective vs structures rather then players. Flayra has admitted that its currently not working, but he would rather leave them in there in a seemingly "broken" state, rather then remove turrets now and try introduce them again later...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's we only have player vs player combat and no ridiculous things like alien structures that shoot small spikes and can be dropped by gorges or long tentacles that even punch grenades back. Hell, could you imagine how ruined the game would be if marines had something that would cause explosions if aliens walk over it? Unthinkable.
--
And with a normal tone on the second part: This is completly stupid. Making them like this was stupid in the first place, and refusing to change them back, aka leave that part of the game in a broken state because big bad buddy 1.0 is coming is just the icing on the cake.
Because the developers deliberately tried to come up with a version of turrets that
a) was so useless that noone would ever use them in game, but
b) maintained the item as a gameplay feature so it could be included in promo material to remind potential purchasers of that scene in the "Aliens" directors cut
This was explicitly explained by Charlie in <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/331846110" target="_blank">a previous Q&A.</a> (around 5:00)
Atleast post 1.0 we can expect some changes to them, but at the moment there are more important things
We just have to be very careful to make sure that pubs aren't full of 'em.
- Remove them (Player vs NPC is not very satisfying in an online multiplayer game)
- Make them strong, but capped (an NS1-style three per turret factory solution would seem to work here)
- Switch the ARC and sentry (so that it becomes an offensive support weapon rather than defensive turtle one)
- Give the marine a temporary, deployable sentry instead (i.e. the offensive turret as <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121017&view=findpost&p=1976336" target="_blank">Runteh has proposed</a>)
For everyone who does not follow them on twitter " Tuning sentries. <gasp> " 20 minutes ago
I hope they just end up capping them (either per node or per TF), then at least we will be able to have a small amount of strong 'deterring' sentries in the game.
3 - 4 Per powernode/tf would suffice, there's plenty of counters and they would remain a big and fragile investment still.
Lowering or raising ROF/damage is not going to work, we've seen countless iterations and this 'tuning' of damage hasn't worked.
Lowering or raising ROF/damage is not going to work, we've seen countless iterations and this 'tuning' of damage hasn't worked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
is this drastic enough ? <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121730" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=121730</a>
Unless UWE intends to remove whips and hydras, the game is chock full of player versus structure, so in my mind, that ship has sailed.
The problem is player versus <i>multiple</i> structures. Since there are already hard cap limits on hydras and clogs, the "arbitrary structure limit" ship has also sailed, too. So I fail to see why a hard cap on decent, defensive sentry turrets is not the easiest and preferred solution.
Not to mention all the structures marines have to actually fight to get their way depending on how the gorges and alien comm place them. Whats the difference between a few hydras and a few turrets to a bile bomb gorge or a grenade launcher marine?
Turrets never in my experience contributed to a stalemate as bile bombs completely annihilate turrets. Its like he was playing a different game from all of us.
In the end you're just going to make it so one power node can only support three turrets that are actually good at defending. I know you are. So just do it now please.
Unless UWE intends to remove whips and hydras, the game is chock full of player versus structure, so in my mind, that ship has sailed.
The problem is player versus <i>multiple</i> structures. Since there are already hard cap limits on hydras and clogs, the "arbitrary structure limit" ship has also sailed, too. So I fail to see why a hard cap on decent, defensive sentry turrets is not the easiest and preferred solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seconded
<!--quoteo(post=1988643:date=Oct 8 2012, 10:32 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Oct 8 2012, 10:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The most ridiculous part of charlie's opinions on player vs. structure is that the MAIN OBJECTIVE of this game is to attack a structure! Even now!
Not to mention all the structures marines have to actually fight to get their way depending on how the gorges and alien comm place them. Whats the difference between a few hydras and a few turrets to a bile bomb gorge or a grenade launcher marine?
Turrets never in my experience contributed to a stalemate as bile bombs completely annihilate turrets. Its like he was playing a different game from all of us.
In the end you're just going to make it so one power node can only support three turrets that are actually good at defending. I know you are. So just do it now please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This too.
On the alien side whips are not a problem because they are effectively useless. They are just area denial when put around a corner that slows marines for a few seconds. Hydras can also be easily taken out by one marine and just prevent them from running in close to a hive/rt and axing it right away. They are also limited to avoid spam.
I don't think anyone is arguing that because aliens have structures that can attack players that it means marines must have some as well. My opinion on it is the less player vs structure combat the better. Even chomping on RTs is boring and should be limited as much as possible. No one wants to spend a game constantly chewing RTs even if it wins you the game. Players want to have fun and the fun thing in FPS games is engaging in combat with other players. I would rather have fun and lose than do boring tasks but win.
Sentries won't allow you to leave the base completely unmanned or else they would be over powered. Just like hydras they should be easily killed without any players to protect them. So I think the argument that you need something to defend an area where players aren't is just dumb. The players on your team should spread out evenly across the map. If the base is under attack from 1 skulk then 1 marine goes back and kills it while the rest push forward.
IMO player vs structure combat should be limited as much as possible, sentry guns are just not fun. I even think mines are bad. It takes no skill to use them and it's just a cheap kill. Perhaps if skulks could destroy them in 1-2 parasites it would encourage more strategic placement, rather than just spamming them around your feet.