Turrets and targetting
AurOn2
COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
<div class="IPBDescription">From a theoretical point of view</div>Recently, turrents have been getting a load of butchery. and by a load, i mean we really, just cant use them anymore as they are either 1, not viable, 2, useless or 3, far too friggen weak.
According to uwe, there's been a problem with aliens not being to rush bases because they have had turrents, and aparently they want to promote rambo skulks chomping power-nodes and winning the game. and this problem has become a thing of the past (whilst making more, much more annoying problems for the team that was nerfed)
Here's my suggestion for a solution on how to save this 'problem', it involves targeting speeds.
Firstly
From a standpoint of 'what is a turret'.
Turrets are generally a sort of automated, artificially intelligent, lets say structure for ns2 consistency. now, we all know that ai, will never be, and has never been, perfect in how fast it processes things. so that means there should be a delay in how fast it identifies 'friend' from 'foe', i mean, what kind of automated defense gun targets at 9999kmph, apart from the aliens' ones of course. So that means it should have like, 2/3 second targeting(if idle or moving straight to turret), then 1/2 second identification as friend or foe, then start the shooting, or re-targeting. Now, targeting could take longer mattering on how fast the unit moves, as it would have to pursue the thing just to lock on to it. this would make turrets good for straight hallways, bad for open rooms, and thus bases, but not entirely useless as you have been trying to make them.
Now to be fair, it will of course have a 'lock' functionality, so it will keep firing in the general direction of said alien until it dies or it moves behind cover, then the lock will break, and it will reset to target something else etc etc.
Statistically to make this fair on whom-ever is buying them, they should have like, 800 health and 600 armor, maybe cost 15 resources (over the old 10, current 5 etc) and NOT require batteries.
Tl;DR
Last paragraph + Make turrets defensive, shoot aliens, give them a 2/3 second targeting time (if targets not moving around), make a 1/2 second identification time, and make a lock system so it STAYS on that target until out of firing range or behind cover!
Another Suggestion
Also maybe make the width of turrets sight like 20% smaller, they have god-sight the way it is now, need to make them more hallway goons than big room goons.
And now my head hurts, i cant type such big texts in such a short time without ###### it up, my apologies if i didn't make anything clear.
According to uwe, there's been a problem with aliens not being to rush bases because they have had turrents, and aparently they want to promote rambo skulks chomping power-nodes and winning the game. and this problem has become a thing of the past (whilst making more, much more annoying problems for the team that was nerfed)
Here's my suggestion for a solution on how to save this 'problem', it involves targeting speeds.
Firstly
From a standpoint of 'what is a turret'.
Turrets are generally a sort of automated, artificially intelligent, lets say structure for ns2 consistency. now, we all know that ai, will never be, and has never been, perfect in how fast it processes things. so that means there should be a delay in how fast it identifies 'friend' from 'foe', i mean, what kind of automated defense gun targets at 9999kmph, apart from the aliens' ones of course. So that means it should have like, 2/3 second targeting(if idle or moving straight to turret), then 1/2 second identification as friend or foe, then start the shooting, or re-targeting. Now, targeting could take longer mattering on how fast the unit moves, as it would have to pursue the thing just to lock on to it. this would make turrets good for straight hallways, bad for open rooms, and thus bases, but not entirely useless as you have been trying to make them.
Now to be fair, it will of course have a 'lock' functionality, so it will keep firing in the general direction of said alien until it dies or it moves behind cover, then the lock will break, and it will reset to target something else etc etc.
Statistically to make this fair on whom-ever is buying them, they should have like, 800 health and 600 armor, maybe cost 15 resources (over the old 10, current 5 etc) and NOT require batteries.
Tl;DR
Last paragraph + Make turrets defensive, shoot aliens, give them a 2/3 second targeting time (if targets not moving around), make a 1/2 second identification time, and make a lock system so it STAYS on that target until out of firing range or behind cover!
Another Suggestion
Also maybe make the width of turrets sight like 20% smaller, they have god-sight the way it is now, need to make them more hallway goons than big room goons.
And now my head hurts, i cant type such big texts in such a short time without ###### it up, my apologies if i didn't make anything clear.
Comments
That really, really makes turrets vulnerable though. And only helpful in open rooms or clear hallways. Bases are typically cluttered and most rooms have plenty of hidey holes to break line of sight and get behind a turret.
IMO, I'm not a fan of using delayed targetting/tracking to help fix the turret issue since they create weird gray regions and flaws. But that's personal opinion. Others have expressed great enthusiasm for the mechanic.
Dealing with NPC static defenses isnt much fun, if we buff up turrets to be useful then I really do think that we need to buff up whips in the same way (much better nade throw back and range)
That really, really makes turrets vulnerable though. And only helpful in open rooms or clear hallways. Bases are typically cluttered and most rooms have plenty of hidey holes to break line of sight and get behind a turret.
IMO, I'm not a fan of using delayed targetting/tracking to help fix the turret issue since they create weird gray regions and flaws. But that's personal opinion. Others have expressed great enthusiasm for the mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1989702:date=Oct 12 2012, 02:45 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 12 2012, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989702"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the dev Q and A this week<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I sort of agree with the OP.
In response to spellman, I think they delayed targeting makes sense to allow fast moving aliens to be able to harras a base or marines within it using jump and wall agility. however what i think the main purpose for a turret (could be... as OP said or hinted to) is to defend structures from being attack by careless skulks who do not move. e.g. as pointed out before power node attacks or obs attacks. These types of attacks could also be reduced with bringing back electrify. so possibly whips=electrify and turrets = hydras ( in a way.)
this could stray from the whole uniqueness of the teams however i do believe marines need that little nudge on the base defence side (having said that they do have a beacon!. looking forward to Build 223 for the change in turrets.
also where is the Q&A? links? i shall google.
1. make them some what weak eg. 500 hp and 200 armor. which makes them very useless against bile attacks, onos/fade. aliens late game can easily destroy these.
2. have them start at low damage and wind up speed over several seconds eg. 15 dmg minimum - 30dmg maximum(or even just 20dmg constant)
3. leave the way it targets alone as it already swings around very slowly and takes a while to begin to track enemies, it also already has a very small arch of fire.
4. dramatically increase the range of proximity to the power source by about 4 times. enabling an expensive way to secure a resource tower or power node at the very least. or could even just be linked straight to power nodes for the room as does all the buildings currently do(which actually makes more sense)
5. price 10 res for power source(if kept) and 20 res per turret, which makes turret defenses more on the expensive side, which gives the commander more reason to be cautious when putting them around the map as it will chew up his res bank and also may easily fall to bile. this also promotes less turrets as res could be better used on other upgrades as a preferred option.
6. limit the number of turrets to 6 per room(yes this is a number that's slightly higher than necessary but gives players the benefit of the doubt, allowing players to make the mistake of over spending team resources), this number also is based on "if you need more than 6 per room, your doing it wrong", besides 6 would = 120+10 resources which is a pretty high amount when players also need upgrades and other expenditures during the game.
marines only need turrets to stop 1 or 2 skulks attacking something, it shouldn't be so powered to effect onos/fade as much, and bile is a clear weakness for it and voids any amount of spam that could be made.
lessons learned from NS1 were turrets had a high strategic value, and spamming them was the only way to make them effective, so upping the price and damage, and lowering the hit points creates less spam but same intent, which also means its easier to maneuver by less turrets for aliens(especially with its limited arch of fire), and highly prone to bile etc. as what bile is intended for.
i don't really understand the challenge to figure out these things, a decade of NS1 experience and testing makes the picture some what clear to me.
side note: limited arch of fire also requires more being placed in a room to cover all angles, this also hikes the price and high price again means maybe covering every little spot may not be the most economical method thus again, easier for a smart skulk to move when the turret swings away and get behind one. also a reminder that current turrets have a very limited range which also adds to them not being able to interrupt long hallway crossings.