Slightly stale gameplay, possible fixes? O_o
unkind
Join Date: 2012-02-04 Member: 143563Members
Join Date: 2012-02-04 Member: 143563Members
Played several hours of this game with the recent patch, some stuff seems really obvious that needs to change. Aliens need to feel powerful and fun, marines already do. Aliens need to feel confident in combat and not like "OMG DONT TURN AROUND PLEASE" when they try to attack marines. Aliens need to feel like their upgrades matter, like they have a solid chance in any engagement (like marines do). They shouldn't ever feel helpless or like they have to hide because marines are so powerful.
I think a lot of these changes would allow aliens to feel powerful and effective and give marines more interesting choices and let comms play in interesting ways.
<i>This is all just ideas opinions and thoughts, if you aren't interested don't read =)</i>
<b>ALIEN:</b>
Adrenaline: Also increase energy regen so you don't sit around for 5 years after using it all (These aren't suppose to be debuffs)
Carapace: Good enough to increase skulk/lerk survivability vs. Shotguns
(alternative: slightly nerf shotties like fire rate or reload speed, or nerf w1,2,3 slight nerf)
(*IDEA*)skulk: add "chomp" or something, like the old ability for fades, a wind-up bite, doesn't slow you down but you have to time it, x2 damage. would let skulks burst marines down with enough skill. (making skulk a bit smaller would be good too) (im talking 3 second wind-up here) (basic combo like, hit "chomp" time leap, hit with chomp then normal bite, rape the marine, this would be fun as hell, only work in an ambush obviously)
(*IDEA*)skulk: Probably a bad idea, but what about letting skulks STICK to marines, like when they leap on them, and the marine has to jump or something to get the skulk off, or knock him off w/rifle? This is probably stupid but i it seems interesting to me.
Xenocide: Activate, skulk glows, blows up 10 seconds later, can do whatever before explosion, explosion does current damage with large radius
(alternative: make it powerful enough to 1 shot a3 marines, and deal large damage to structures, make power nodes immune to it or take reduced damage)
Silence: Make marines hear when they're being hit with their marine gasping/screaming whatever. It's irritating to die to this ability.
(*IDEA*)Frenzy evolution: + damage if you hit marines that have been recently hit by team mates (adds strategy, adds thinking to aliens, fun.)
(*IDEA*)FOCUS evolution: reduce attack speed, increase damage.
(*IDEA*)Hive Mind evolution: Let aliens teleport from one hive to another by clicking on them and selecting a hive.
(*IDEA*)Egg Selection: Let aliens choose eggs to spawn from while they're waiting to respawn.
Leap: Tiny bit faster. Not necessary if skulk size is reduced.
Lerk: Faster, a bit smaller, spikes slightly higher damage, slightly higher hp or armor maybe? Spike noise is also pretty bad imo, too high pitched.
Gorge spit: Either really innacurate or slow or bad xhair or combination of all of it, shouldn't be so ######. Needs web badly for dynamic gameplay.
Fade: Acid rocket? (would be fun)
(*IDEA*)Hypermutation: POSSIBLY make it just a passive alien ability, that lets you change life forms for a refund, adds dynamic alien gameplay and combat strategy. Do not heal the life form though unless it PAYS res for the change.
Alien upgrade buildings die too easily, greatly increase armor/hp.
<b>MARINE:</b>
Turrets: Make them real turrets again (defense)
Armory: Is too spammable imo, regens hp/armor too fast. Comms just throw them every 10 feet, bad design IMO. Increase build time/increase cost, reduce armor recover, something.
(*IDEA*)RTs: Let them be upgraded to shock aliens when turned on.
Power Nodes: Slower to build. Seems a bit too fast maybe?
(*IDEA*)HMG: Add to the game. Can't use w/jp. (to compensate for scaling and powerful aliens, give marines reason to not use JP or EXOs)
(*IDEA*)Railgun: Add to the game. Can't use w/jp. (think quake 3 railgun, would be ###### amazingly fun, give marines reason to not use JP or EXOs)
I think a lot of these changes would allow aliens to feel powerful and effective and give marines more interesting choices and let comms play in interesting ways.
<i>This is all just ideas opinions and thoughts, if you aren't interested don't read =)</i>
<b>ALIEN:</b>
Adrenaline: Also increase energy regen so you don't sit around for 5 years after using it all (These aren't suppose to be debuffs)
Carapace: Good enough to increase skulk/lerk survivability vs. Shotguns
(alternative: slightly nerf shotties like fire rate or reload speed, or nerf w1,2,3 slight nerf)
(*IDEA*)skulk: add "chomp" or something, like the old ability for fades, a wind-up bite, doesn't slow you down but you have to time it, x2 damage. would let skulks burst marines down with enough skill. (making skulk a bit smaller would be good too) (im talking 3 second wind-up here) (basic combo like, hit "chomp" time leap, hit with chomp then normal bite, rape the marine, this would be fun as hell, only work in an ambush obviously)
(*IDEA*)skulk: Probably a bad idea, but what about letting skulks STICK to marines, like when they leap on them, and the marine has to jump or something to get the skulk off, or knock him off w/rifle? This is probably stupid but i it seems interesting to me.
Xenocide: Activate, skulk glows, blows up 10 seconds later, can do whatever before explosion, explosion does current damage with large radius
(alternative: make it powerful enough to 1 shot a3 marines, and deal large damage to structures, make power nodes immune to it or take reduced damage)
Silence: Make marines hear when they're being hit with their marine gasping/screaming whatever. It's irritating to die to this ability.
(*IDEA*)Frenzy evolution: + damage if you hit marines that have been recently hit by team mates (adds strategy, adds thinking to aliens, fun.)
(*IDEA*)FOCUS evolution: reduce attack speed, increase damage.
(*IDEA*)Hive Mind evolution: Let aliens teleport from one hive to another by clicking on them and selecting a hive.
(*IDEA*)Egg Selection: Let aliens choose eggs to spawn from while they're waiting to respawn.
Leap: Tiny bit faster. Not necessary if skulk size is reduced.
Lerk: Faster, a bit smaller, spikes slightly higher damage, slightly higher hp or armor maybe? Spike noise is also pretty bad imo, too high pitched.
Gorge spit: Either really innacurate or slow or bad xhair or combination of all of it, shouldn't be so ######. Needs web badly for dynamic gameplay.
Fade: Acid rocket? (would be fun)
(*IDEA*)Hypermutation: POSSIBLY make it just a passive alien ability, that lets you change life forms for a refund, adds dynamic alien gameplay and combat strategy. Do not heal the life form though unless it PAYS res for the change.
Alien upgrade buildings die too easily, greatly increase armor/hp.
<b>MARINE:</b>
Turrets: Make them real turrets again (defense)
Armory: Is too spammable imo, regens hp/armor too fast. Comms just throw them every 10 feet, bad design IMO. Increase build time/increase cost, reduce armor recover, something.
(*IDEA*)RTs: Let them be upgraded to shock aliens when turned on.
Power Nodes: Slower to build. Seems a bit too fast maybe?
(*IDEA*)HMG: Add to the game. Can't use w/jp. (to compensate for scaling and powerful aliens, give marines reason to not use JP or EXOs)
(*IDEA*)Railgun: Add to the game. Can't use w/jp. (think quake 3 railgun, would be ###### amazingly fun, give marines reason to not use JP or EXOs)
Comments
Ooh I'm getting flashbacks of TFC and timing conc jumps... I like this idea a lot!
I also think that hypermutation should be a passive ability, because it adds so much depth to the game, but is not worth getting instead of the same old celerity and adrenaline.
And I agree that something should be done to armory spam. I watched some game in the Guru tournament recently, where marines blocked the twin arch passages south from the Y-junction with two armories, with only two lmg marines holding the area and basically making the aliens' onos obsolete. After a long battle and losing a couple of gorges, the aliens finally managed to take down one of the armories, but the onos had to retreat. A new armory was up in just a matter of seconds.
Xeno killing A3 marines is poor design. Killing A0 Marines outright if you explode on top of them is better design. Killing unarmored Marines is best design. But it's currently crippled by the change of RFK into no-res-on-death.
Reading most of the ideas, it sounds like you want to bring back most of the NS1 mechanics. Electrification, Focus, HMGs, etc.
Reading most of the ideas, it sounds like you want to bring back most of the NS1 mechanics. Electrification, Focus, HMGs, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the skulk chomp thing would make it so you didnt need focus if your aliens were good enough, or you could get focus if you wanted, just adding choices like that i think is a good idea.
UWE have already said they don't want to do this, so I propose an alternative:
Shifts behave more like phasegates.
If I walk up to a shift, it will display an egg counter. This is the number of eggs spawned by other shifts. If I press 'E' on the shift, I will jump into one of those eggs and spawn a second later.
Lets make an example of this used in game. If I want to get my team attacking forward, currently I can spawn eggs there which will be used by dead aliens. However alive aliens still need to do the walk of shame. Now they can walk up to a nearby shift, press 'E' and join their comrades.
Or if a hive is under attack, I can throw a few eggs out of a shift near the hive and people can go to their nearest shift to get there.
Its still not great, and too expensive, but its better than current situation.
Edit: Alot of your 'ideas' are "I want NS1". Many of the changes had good reason. Electric RTs is one thing I am glad is gone, because it keeps the skulk useful as a RT chomper all game and allows for careless teams to fall back if they think they don't need to worry about stuff happening behind their lines.
it won't happen, and im fine with it, cause ns2 is another game and im interested in the new stuff the devs have up their sleeve :)
though im with you, that balance have to get optimized ...
<b>ALIEN:</b>
Adrenaline: Also increase energy regen so you don't sit around for 5 years after using it all (These aren't suppose to be debuffs)
aliens have a building that greatly increases regen
(*IDEA*)skulk: Probably a bad idea, but what about letting skulks STICK to marines, like when they leap on them, and the marine has to jump or something to get the skulk off, or knock him off w/rifle? This is probably stupid but i it seems interesting to me.
Not a fan of this idea
Xenocide: Activate, skulk glows, blows up 10 seconds later, can do whatever before explosion, explosion does current damage with large radius
(alternative: make it powerful enough to 1 shot a3 marines, and deal large damage to structures, make power nodes immune to it or take reduced damage)
would love to see leap xeno combo but one shotting marines is a bit far
(*IDEA*)Frenzy evolution: + damage if you hit marines that have been recently hit by team mates (adds strategy, adds thinking to aliens, fun.)
should be extra damage if hit recently from you not the team
(*IDEA*)Hive Mind evolution: Let aliens teleport from one hive to another by clicking on them and selecting a hive.
or at least give teleport to another building
(*IDEA*)Egg Selection: Let aliens choose eggs to spawn from while they're waiting to respawn.
definitely
Leap: Tiny bit faster. Not necessary if skulk size is reduced.
you get speed from going high to low but agree with size reduction
Lerk: Faster, a bit smaller, spikes slightly higher damage, slightly higher hp or armor maybe? Spike noise is also pretty bad imo, too high pitched.
spikes really do need to do more damage hp/armour is fine just play a little bit less aggressive
<b>MARINE:</b>
Turrets: Make them real turrets again (defense)
from the q&a today they might be decent again
Armory: Is too spammable imo, regens hp/armor too fast. Comms just throw them every 10 feet, bad design IMO. Increase build time/increase cost, reduce armor recover, something.
would be interesting to see a decrease in hp/armour regen the further away it is from an allied cc forcing marines to go back to base giving aliens some breathing room
(*IDEA*)RTs: Let them be upgraded to shock aliens when turned on.
oh god no
Power Nodes: Slower to build. Seems a bit too fast maybe?
it's a bug
(*IDEA*)HMG: Add to the game. Can't use w/jp. (to compensate for scaling and powerful aliens, give marines reason to not use JP or EXOs)
no need exo has replaced the hmg
(*IDEA*)Railgun: Add to the game. Can't use w/jp. (think quake 3 railgun, would be ###### amazingly fun, give marines reason to not use JP or EXOs)
railgun is going on exo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would of been better if focus just increased damage and retain the same rate of fire.
plays have an action button that they can press to immediately kill the other player when up close.
It immobilizes the other play which is being attacked, and the attacker pulls a finishing move.
Get ready to see 99% alien win rate with that silly change.
AvP3 was horrible because of the ###### consolized press X to instant kill mechanic, it destroyed all the fun "duels" from the first 2 games, no wonder the MP community for that game died in a few months.
focus would have been totally imba, with the same atackspeed, u would have melted marines
It would of been better if focus just increased damage and retain the same rate of fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The main reason Focus was AMAZING was that you didn't need to hit over a long period of time.
When was this useful?
Skulks bites now one-shot a Marine who has no Armor (Lerk Gas!)
Fades can take advantage of Blink and jump in and out landing precise hits while minimizing time standing still.
You only have to hit 1 or 2 Bites/Swipes on a Jetpacker in mid-air instead of 3-4.
In short, being able to deal the damage you normally would take two hits for, all front loaded, means getting the jump on the Marine = a dead Marine. Plus spending a lot less time in melee range and more time dodging/dancing on their corpse.
Shifts behave more like phasegates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No.
This will make shift hive a requirement for first hive to allow ports between hives, especially when placing a newborn hive.
Instead, how about we give gorges another structure akin to nydus wurms from SC2 that they can build for 5 p.res. Give them a little something more to do considering their boring state.
This will make shift hive a requirement for first hive to allow ports between hives, especially when placing a newborn hive.
Instead, how about we give gorges another structure akin to nydus wurms from SC2 that they can build for 5 p.res. Give them a little something more to do considering their boring state.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It kind of already is requirement for first chamber. What are you going to do? Hypermutation exploit? lololnexcil :p.
Oops. I guess playing only one game in the past two months kinda makes you forget things.
I love how the hypermutation exploit actually made it useful, and the best part about it is that it's been fixed. Lololol.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some of these marines I questioned what type of 3rd party mods they are using cause they had scores of 30+ kills with only 2 deaths.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When I go marines It takes two clips to kill a skulk but when someone else is a marine and I am skulk they only use half a clip. And, yes I have been playing for over one year and half. If they are cheating or exploiting a bug that needs to be research because I don't see how some marines can kill so many and not die at all. Doesn't make sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
tldr
other players are better.
plays have an action button that they can press to immediately kill the other player when up close.
It immobilizes the other play which is being attacked, and the attacker pulls a finishing move.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AvP was never meant to be balanced. In fact I think there was even a stock game mode where everyone would be against a single predator. NS2 on the other hand has to be balanced.
In fact, in terms of asymmetry, NS is pretty much the only game ever that has been properly asymmetrical with the requirement of being balanced. The only one I can think of anyway.
Maybe this is indicative of a better community than in many games. Instead of "LOL HACXOR!!!?!?!" we now have "Could you sir kindly inform me of the 3rd party mods you are using?" ;)
Oh, and 30+/2 stats as a marine (on public servers) are not that huge an achievement. Skulking is pretty difficult and in addition to requiring skill in avoiding marine shooting and actually hitting, skulking requires things like patience, ability to read the game and most of all teamwork. A good marine has pretty easy time picking out all but the most skilled skulks. Add to this the snowballing effect of success now making success in the future easier to get, and there you have it. No mods or hacks needed.
<!--quoteo(post=1992446:date=Oct 16 2012, 10:06 PM:name=unkind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (unkind @ Oct 16 2012, 10:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>ALIEN:</b>
Adrenaline: Also increase energy regen so you don't sit around for 5 years after using it all (These aren't suppose to be debuffs)
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->Adrenaline should not remove the need to manage your energy. The old Adren was overpowered and completely removed the passive ability of shifts. I think some little changes could be enough. Either the hive should increase the energy regen like a shift. Or Adrenaline should build up energy-regeneration-speed over 5 seconds if no energy was used in this time.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Carapace: Good enough to increase skulk/lerk survivability vs. Shotguns
(alternative: slightly nerf shotties like fire rate or reload speed, or nerf w1,2,3 slight nerf)
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->I would go even further. Marine-weapon-upgrades should only affect LMGs and pistols. Weapon upgrades will remain very powerful, because it upgrades the free default marine. Also it makes balancing of the advanced weapons easier.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
(*IDEA*)skulk: Probably a bad idea, but what about letting skulks STICK to marines, like when they leap on them, and the marine has to jump or something to get the skulk off, or knock him off w/rifle? This is probably stupid but i it seems interesting to me.
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->Actually, some builds ago there was a bug where a skulk that collided with a marine could cause both of them getting stuck until one of them jumped. I always thought of it as a cool move, where the skulk got his teeth on the marine and could hold him in position. It was pretty balanced, because the skulk got stuck too until he jumped, and therefore was an easier target. Now we got this smooth collisions that play pretty fluid but are a pain in the butt for the skulk.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Xenocide: Activate, skulk glows, blows up 10 seconds later, can do whatever before explosion, explosion does current damage with large radius
(alternative: make it powerful enough to 1 shot a3 marines, and deal large damage to structures, make power nodes immune to it or take reduced damage)
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->I got some other ideas for Xeno. In a nutshell: It should be powerful and able to kill at least LvL2-armor-marines because it is an expensive tier3 alien tech. It should need skill to execute successful. And it should be counter-able by the marines with skill. One idea that achieves this, would be to use your 10sec timer but set the initial damage of the explosion very low. With every bite you get in while charging the explosion, the damage and range the explosion does would be increased. So the marines got enough time to shoot you and counter your xeno, but skill-less skulks that just leap into a marine group from safety aren't rewarded.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Silence: Make marines hear when they're being hit with their marine gasping/screaming whatever. It's irritating to die to this ability.
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->Agreed. But this is not only a marine-problem. Both teams should have an easy to notice being-hit-sound.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
(*IDEA*)FOCUS evolution: reduce attack speed, increase damage.
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->Agreed. This would be good especially against armor3 marines and skulk-scaling into late game. But is not easy to balance.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
(*IDEA*)Hive Mind evolution: Let aliens teleport from one hive to another by clicking on them and selecting a hive.
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->Agreed. It should not be bound to the shift hive. And more strategical options for the kham are needed too.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
(*IDEA*)Egg Selection: Let aliens choose eggs to spawn from while they're waiting to respawn.
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->I would rather see the kham being able to select the building (hive or shift) that he prefers for his team to spawn. Like shifts can be used right now to direct the spawning to certain areas of the map. This would tighten the bond between the kham and his aliens. I think this is needed. Maybe it could be implemented as a visual sign for the respawning alien, so he knows that the kham would prefer to spawn it there, but the alien could choose another egg despite that.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Leap: Tiny bit faster. Not necessary if skulk size is reduced.
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->Nope! Leap is already powerful enough. If not it wouldn't be always the first research to do. The problem is more, that it increases the power of the skulk too much. Even if skulks would be good without it, it would always make them much more better. So if any, it should be made less effective. But than you get problems with countering jet packs.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Gorge spit: Either really innacurate or slow or bad xhair or combination of all of it, shouldn't be so ######. Needs web badly for dynamic gameplay.
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->Agreed. I'm not sure why it is this way. Maybe the velocity of the gorge should not be added to the projectile. This would make it easier to hit something while strafing.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Alien upgrade buildings die too easily, greatly increase armor/hp.
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->No. This will remove this strategic option completely. Like it is right now with the marines already. It has no sense to attack the arms lab in the marine base. It is always better to go for obs / powernode first. This is boring. Sniping upgrades should be a valid tactic <b>but for both teams!</b> decreasing the health of the arms lab and the proto lab would encourage aliens to snipe marine upgrade buildings. I see no problem with upgrade-sniping as long as it is valid for both teams. But according to such a change, sentries should be buffed to be valid as upgrade-defense. Like aliens have clogs, whips and hydras for this task.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<b>MARINE:</b>
Turrets: Make them real turrets again (defense)
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->Agreed. BUT it should always be possible for a single skulk to overcome a sentry-defense as long as no marine is there. This is a basic rule for every multiplayer game from dota to tf2: AI-units that are not supported by a player should only hold of an enemy for a short time. They should never replace a player or being able to completely shut an area of the map down without any player to support that defense. (e.g. TF2 sentry is rubish when no engineer is near.) This can be achieved with a hard-cap of 3 to the robotics factory. No matter how you place this 3 sentries around the robotics factory, there should always be a blind spot where a skulk could break this defense. The aiming speed of this sentries need to be fine tuned so it isn't possible for a skulk to just run / leap up a long hallway frontal to them, but slow enough so he can detect the blind spot and circle them appropriate.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Armory: Is too spammable imo, regens hp/armor too fast. Comms just throw them every 10 feet, bad design IMO. Increase build time/increase cost, reduce armor recover, something.
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->I would even cut armor recovery completely. You got already welders and macs for this. This worked already very good in the build where it was tried. But some very vocal people didn't want to adapt to this change.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
(*IDEA*)RTs: Let them be upgraded to shock aliens when turned on.
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->Nah! Marines have already no problem in capping and holding more RTs than aliens. They are already faster build than destroyed. If any, the time that is needed to chew a RT should be the same that is needed to build one. So marines can't just spam-build RTs.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Power Nodes: Slower to build. Seems a bit too fast maybe?
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->I think there is a bug with destroyed power nodes right now? Or are they really back to this ridiculous fast repair-speed they had a few build ago?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, ######.... better nerf regeneration then. Considering it removes the passive ability of crags too.
Good point; regen does feel incredibly op right now (back to full health in under 10 sex for most LF) but with regen you're giving up carapace which kinda seems to make it work OK. Crags need to be buffed IMO though; especially healing lifeforms.
If you would use your time to actually read what has been written, instead of trying to sound intelligent by talking exclusively sarcastic, you would have understood it.
So again, maybe you read it this time:
The <b><u>OLD</u></b> Adrenaline was overpowered. It gave you nearly unlimited energy. Regen does not give you unlimited health. You need to get out of battle to heal. Also I wrote only 2 sentences later, that a system like it is used by regeneration, would work with adrenaline too. But don't let me correct you. Just keep on trolling with your sarcasm. This is very productive. <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>I need to be nicer.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->