Bite troubleshooting
fanatic
This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
For the most part, I think it is agreed upon that the skulk is suffering at the moment. While it might not be entirely broken, it is not as fun to play as it should be, especially for the average player. In this thread I will describe what I believe is causing the problem, and what can be done to fix it. Hopefully others can contribute as well.
With movement slightly better in b222, compared to previous builds, the biggest problem seems to be the difficulty in connecting bites. So why exactly, is hitting marines with bite so difficult? I believe there are several contributing factors.
<b>1. The bite mechanic</b>
This has gone through countless revisions now, none of which have been entirely satisfactory. Unfortunately, the current bite mechanic is very unforgiving, even for skilled players. While I personally have no problem putting in a lot of practice hours to learn how to aim it properly, it is a serious issue for the average player. Just from playing public for a few hours yesterday, I really noticed how most of the players struggle to hit even a single bite, not to mention the three needed to kill a marine. Several times I saw aliens team F4 or leave the server until "auto concede" kicked in, because they had no fun playing. Come launch day, this is going to be an even bigger problem, with an influx of even less experienced players.
So, what is the problem with the current bite mechanic? Honestly, I have no idea how it works from a technical point of view. I've seen it described as being changed to be similar to the way bite worked in NS1 by UWE, however. Having extensive experience with playing NS1, I don't believe that to be the case. While it was quite possible for good players to dodge bites in NS1, it was never anything like what I see and experience in NS2. A clear indicator of this is the frequent occurence of "jump spam combat"; where the marine and the skulk will jump around each other in a confused manner for several seconds without the skulk scoring any hits, something which was a very rare occurence in NS1.
While I initially thought changing bite to be more difficult to hit, as opposed to the "lawn mower" mechanic in b221, was a good idea, I now think the changes went too far. With less than two weeks until release, I don't think this is the time to be experimenting any further either. While an entirely new bite mechanic might work out great in the end, that will need a lot of work and testing to get right, and should be left for future patches. I would instead suggest either reverting to the b221 bite entirely, or finding a middle ground between b221 and b222 bite. At least that way, a large portion of the playerbase will not be alienated (hurr) by playing the skulk, which is something you are required to do for a significant part of any given round.
<b>2. Player collision</b>
A lot has been said about this in previous threads, and I don't think I'll be able to add anything to that. I agree with the posters who have argued that the collision models are making it difficult for aliens to track marines and stay within melee range, thus making it harder to hit bites. UWE have confirmed that this will be fixed in the next build, so hopefully there will be no need for further discussion on this.
<b>3. Knockback</b>
As with player collision, this has been exhaustively discussed in other threads, and UWE have confirmed that it will either be removed or significantly nerfed in the next build.
<b>4. Air control</b>
By air control, I mean the ability to change your momentum or direction after a jump or fall, while you are mid-air. This is an essential mechanic in any FPS game, even more so in a game where game mechanics, features or abilities incentivizes players to stay off the ground. This is something UWE also realized, to their credit, and air control was implemented fairly early in the development process. It has since gone through several revisions, although I don't think it has been changed recently.
Now, you might think that the more air control, the easier it is for the melee class to get into melee range and stay within melee range; thus making hitting bites easier. This is, however, not the case, when the opposing team has the same amount of air control and can use it to make their movement unpredictable. To cut to the chase: I believe that the amount of air control in NS2 is excessive (more than what is needed to give players reasonable control over their movement ingame), and that this excessive amount of air control is making it too difficult for skulks to hit bites.
The argument behind this is fairly simple: My observation, and experience, is that the current air control implementation makes it very difficult to predict the direction in which any given mid-air player will be moving. The reason for this, is that NS2 currently lets you create new momentum while mid-air.
This can be easily explained through a comparison with NS1, which is easy for anyone to see for themselves. Simply install and load up NS1 and NS2 and do the following: (1) Join any team (or even do it in the readyroom), (2) Press space (to jump) and (3) Click and hold one of the strafe keys, either a or d (after jumping, once you are mid-air). Now compare how far you've moved from the location where you pressed jump. What you will see, is that in NS1 you have barely moved at all, while in NS2 you have moved a significant distance.
The difference is that in NS1 you could only change the direction of the momentum you already had (either from already being in motion when you jumped or from using an ability like leap) by holding a strafe key and moving your mouse. You could never create new momentum while in the air. In NS2, however, you are able to create a significant amount of new momentum after leaving the ground, without using an ability, simply by holding a directional key (strafe, forward, backward).
This ability to create new momentum where there previously was none, makes player movement significantly more unpredictable, since predicting the direction a jumping marine is moving becomes a guessing game for the skulk, not to mention that the marine can change his direction according to the skulk's movement after the skulk guesses which direction the marine is moving in.
So, my suggestion is this: Remove the ability to create new momentum mid-air. Air control should be limited to altering already existing momentum, which makes for far more predictable movement -- which actually leads to more skillful play as well.
<b>5. Marine leg hitbox</b>
I don't know if this is actually a problem, but I have seen it suggested, and it seems feasible. With the more accurate hitboxes in NS2, compared to NS1, it might now actually be possible to bite between the legs of a marine, thus missing the bite. While this might seem realistic, I think it is too demanding of players to expect them to aim perfectly at thin leg hitboxes in frantic melee combat.
It's very possible that this isn't a problem at all, but if it is; I think either bite or the hitboxes should be tweaked so that it is never possible to miss a bite because you were aiming between a marine's legs.
With movement slightly better in b222, compared to previous builds, the biggest problem seems to be the difficulty in connecting bites. So why exactly, is hitting marines with bite so difficult? I believe there are several contributing factors.
<b>1. The bite mechanic</b>
This has gone through countless revisions now, none of which have been entirely satisfactory. Unfortunately, the current bite mechanic is very unforgiving, even for skilled players. While I personally have no problem putting in a lot of practice hours to learn how to aim it properly, it is a serious issue for the average player. Just from playing public for a few hours yesterday, I really noticed how most of the players struggle to hit even a single bite, not to mention the three needed to kill a marine. Several times I saw aliens team F4 or leave the server until "auto concede" kicked in, because they had no fun playing. Come launch day, this is going to be an even bigger problem, with an influx of even less experienced players.
So, what is the problem with the current bite mechanic? Honestly, I have no idea how it works from a technical point of view. I've seen it described as being changed to be similar to the way bite worked in NS1 by UWE, however. Having extensive experience with playing NS1, I don't believe that to be the case. While it was quite possible for good players to dodge bites in NS1, it was never anything like what I see and experience in NS2. A clear indicator of this is the frequent occurence of "jump spam combat"; where the marine and the skulk will jump around each other in a confused manner for several seconds without the skulk scoring any hits, something which was a very rare occurence in NS1.
While I initially thought changing bite to be more difficult to hit, as opposed to the "lawn mower" mechanic in b221, was a good idea, I now think the changes went too far. With less than two weeks until release, I don't think this is the time to be experimenting any further either. While an entirely new bite mechanic might work out great in the end, that will need a lot of work and testing to get right, and should be left for future patches. I would instead suggest either reverting to the b221 bite entirely, or finding a middle ground between b221 and b222 bite. At least that way, a large portion of the playerbase will not be alienated (hurr) by playing the skulk, which is something you are required to do for a significant part of any given round.
<b>2. Player collision</b>
A lot has been said about this in previous threads, and I don't think I'll be able to add anything to that. I agree with the posters who have argued that the collision models are making it difficult for aliens to track marines and stay within melee range, thus making it harder to hit bites. UWE have confirmed that this will be fixed in the next build, so hopefully there will be no need for further discussion on this.
<b>3. Knockback</b>
As with player collision, this has been exhaustively discussed in other threads, and UWE have confirmed that it will either be removed or significantly nerfed in the next build.
<b>4. Air control</b>
By air control, I mean the ability to change your momentum or direction after a jump or fall, while you are mid-air. This is an essential mechanic in any FPS game, even more so in a game where game mechanics, features or abilities incentivizes players to stay off the ground. This is something UWE also realized, to their credit, and air control was implemented fairly early in the development process. It has since gone through several revisions, although I don't think it has been changed recently.
Now, you might think that the more air control, the easier it is for the melee class to get into melee range and stay within melee range; thus making hitting bites easier. This is, however, not the case, when the opposing team has the same amount of air control and can use it to make their movement unpredictable. To cut to the chase: I believe that the amount of air control in NS2 is excessive (more than what is needed to give players reasonable control over their movement ingame), and that this excessive amount of air control is making it too difficult for skulks to hit bites.
The argument behind this is fairly simple: My observation, and experience, is that the current air control implementation makes it very difficult to predict the direction in which any given mid-air player will be moving. The reason for this, is that NS2 currently lets you create new momentum while mid-air.
This can be easily explained through a comparison with NS1, which is easy for anyone to see for themselves. Simply install and load up NS1 and NS2 and do the following: (1) Join any team (or even do it in the readyroom), (2) Press space (to jump) and (3) Click and hold one of the strafe keys, either a or d (after jumping, once you are mid-air). Now compare how far you've moved from the location where you pressed jump. What you will see, is that in NS1 you have barely moved at all, while in NS2 you have moved a significant distance.
The difference is that in NS1 you could only change the direction of the momentum you already had (either from already being in motion when you jumped or from using an ability like leap) by holding a strafe key and moving your mouse. You could never create new momentum while in the air. In NS2, however, you are able to create a significant amount of new momentum after leaving the ground, without using an ability, simply by holding a directional key (strafe, forward, backward).
This ability to create new momentum where there previously was none, makes player movement significantly more unpredictable, since predicting the direction a jumping marine is moving becomes a guessing game for the skulk, not to mention that the marine can change his direction according to the skulk's movement after the skulk guesses which direction the marine is moving in.
So, my suggestion is this: Remove the ability to create new momentum mid-air. Air control should be limited to altering already existing momentum, which makes for far more predictable movement -- which actually leads to more skillful play as well.
<b>5. Marine leg hitbox</b>
I don't know if this is actually a problem, but I have seen it suggested, and it seems feasible. With the more accurate hitboxes in NS2, compared to NS1, it might now actually be possible to bite between the legs of a marine, thus missing the bite. While this might seem realistic, I think it is too demanding of players to expect them to aim perfectly at thin leg hitboxes in frantic melee combat.
It's very possible that this isn't a problem at all, but if it is; I think either bite or the hitboxes should be tweaked so that it is never possible to miss a bite because you were aiming between a marine's legs.
Comments
And idk how feasible that is.
But I 100% agree with the rest of the stuff.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A clear indicator of this is the frequent occurence of "jump spam combat"; where the marine and the skulk will jump around each other in a confused manner for several seconds without the skulk scoring any hits, something which was a very rare occurence in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When a marine is able to jump around a skulk just as well as the skulk can jump around the marine, it does feel like something is wrong. If anything I find it easier to track a skulk as a marine when in this kind of encounter, probably because of the higher point of view.
In the short-term reverting back to b221's bite would be the safe route.
I appreciate how you laid this out. Its spot on.
Lets hope this gets fixed before release.
All of the solutions to the air control problems already exist in my movement mod <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#C0C0C0--><span style="color:#C0C0C0"><!--/coloro-->(I have no shame)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->. It's just a matter of convincing the community and Unknown Worlds that it's worth adopting into the vanilla game.
this makes a lot of sense, actually. it could be argued that more freedom of movement has a higher skill ceiling, but the aircontrol techniques in NS2 aren't particularly difficult to learn or master. it's easy to see how after a certain point, it starts to become detrimental to gameplay because a marine isn't punished for having poor positioning.
I guess another thing is it sort of clashes with the setting a bit as well - the infestation covered rooms are supposed to be super daunting and frightening to take, but marine teams in the advantage pretty much can just waltz into hive rooms.
Players need to be able to stick to marines a little better than currently. If it is made that much harder to slip past a marine by accident I think skulk performance will increase.
The current bites is so frustrating, and yes air control is a very important thing for the skulk gameplay(is so bad actually).
Really hope it gets improved on before release. I can imagine how frustrated a new player will get when they can barely track a marine with their bite let alone land a hit.
Really hope it gets improved on before release. I can imagine how frustrated a new player will get when they can barely track a marine with their bite let alone land a hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As frustrated as someone who can't ski in tribes or can't micro in SC2? If people aren't used to needing to learn the games they pick up, there's not a lot we can do for them on the development side. They'll get better with time or move on to something that doesn't require skill.
Skulking right now is an exercise in frustration, compared with 221, when I had a lot of fun.
As for Techercizer's point about skill, it's a fine point, but is mooted by the fact that this game is going <b>retail</b>. Having even more alien rage-quitters than we have now come 31/10 is not doing the game any favours.
Im not a ###### skulk and maybe 70% of the time i can tell myself ok that was a ###### engagement or ye that marine has decent aim, but it is still frustrating to have to try track a marine who thinks he is on dancing with the stars, or put up with the bites which APPARENTLY did not hit home. And yes it is still frustrating even if i do kill the ballerina marine.
Especially the aircontrol part.
Its the disparity in skill curves that is the issue, not the fact that skill curves exist.
What if, at the new player level, zerg required extensive micro to win while terran and protoss did not? That's the situation skulks are in right now.
This is largely moot anyway, we know the marine knockback is a bug, and collision is getting modified in the next patch. Any discussion of skulk combat will be very different in 224 once those things are fixed.
We can only hope that they're fixed soon, and fixed well, because we'll only have 1 more patch before prime time.
Maybe if Hydras were less worthless, we could send newbies to Gorge when they get too frustrated of learning to Skulk. I also feel like there would be much less futility in skulkplay if new players would stick to ambushing and not try to pull off the corridor-long offensive closes they see more experienced players doing.
Maybe if Hydras were less worthless, we could send newbies to Gorge when they get too frustrated of learning to Skulk. I also feel like there would be much less futility in skulkplay if new players would stick to ambushing and not try to pull off the corridor-long offensive closes they see more experienced players doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That only works in symmetrical games. Its perfectly acceptable to have steep (requiring large skill for small improvement in ability) and high (difference between min and max ability is large) skill curves <i>as long as everyone is on the same curve</i>. Which isn't the case in NS2.
Fair point. It's kind of hard to track a Skulk in combat, but there is an artificial boost along that curve for players who are experienced with other games in the FPS genre. Do you have a proposed method for introducing a similar boost to early skulk players without removing rewards for skill or unbalancing high level play?
Maybe if Hydras were less worthless, we could send newbies to Gorge when they get too frustrated of learning to Skulk. I also feel like there would be much less futility in skulkplay if new players would stick to ambushing and not try to pull off the corridor-long offensive closes they see more experienced players doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But thats the problem! Even at an ambush a skulk vs lvl 0 marine, the marine still often has a good chance if he jumps around enough. Sure you can blame the skulk, but because of the orientation of the bite and the bite view, it is quite difficult to follow a marines jump movement during combat, so much so that its annoying as hell.
And im sorry but saying buff hydras and send newbies to gorge is a horrible idea. They spawn as skulk, they will HAVE to use skulk, early, mid, late game (assuming they dont die as a higher life forms cause they somehow mastered it)
I think the idea of a 'glancing bite' in another thread would be a good start. Two bite cones, one wide, one narrow. Wide one gets you some damage (25 maybe?), narrow one gets you full damage (75). Little to no influence on top end damage output, but would make the skulk skill curve a little less steep at the beginning. You'd have a more gradual increase in damage with skill as you go from landing no bites, to landing only wide bites, to landing a mix, to being able to reliably land the narrow bite.
This is the kind of experiment I talked about in the OP, that could end up being fantastic, but would require extensive testing first. Simply not feasible until after release.
I can guarantee you, Techersizer, that the suggestions in the OP will not have a negative impact on top level play.
the idea of a glancing bite is interesting & would help less accurate players (hand-raised) - instead of wondering why they got no damage when they bit down with a marine on screen 'in their mouth'.
The first one is the hardware disparity a particular player told me he is running a CPU at around 4.7 while my CPU is ran at 3.2. So i gave him the benefit of the doubt and agreed that this was a contributor to his ridiculous scores in earlier builds that had huge performance issues. I still believe that even though performance has come a long way, it is at best sub par for a modern day FPS.
The next thing I began to observe was players joining matches in builds pre 214 with high ping around 200, and single handily destroying the over powered aliens as a marine. This is when performance was really bad on servers with 8v8 for 99% of the player base. So i began to ask him about his rig setup and the individual told me it was just an average rig and so on. Then I was like well how are you just destroying every one with the servers running like crap. That is when I found out about these 3rd party mods that all the competitive players are using. Now I do not believe that these add on's are cheating because UWE allows the use of the mods, but at the same time UWE should have been raising the question what is the reason for these add on's increasing a players performance exponentially. Is it a disconnect with the game mechanics? Such as the GUI/HUD interface.
So in regards to a simple fix They need to include these as part of the game or outlaw them all together. Having something as simple as a little white dot that turns red, which in terms guarantees the player a hit should be provided for every one. The non-modified Alien target queue doesn't show up for a Skulk in till you have landed a bite. So there is not any queue system for a skulk to assist in landing bites. Something as simple as a white dot that turns red when you bite is guaranteed to land helps out all players new and competitive. This does not just apply to the skulk bite but parasite, Fade attack, Onos attack and every other lifeforms.
There are no 3rd party mods that massively increase performance. The only exception is www.ns2cmod.com, but that is a gameplay mod and not a client mod.