Bite troubleshooting

2

Comments

  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is when I found out about these 3rd party mods that all the competitive players are using.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Am i the only one who doesnt know about these awesome mods everybody is using? :/

    <img src="http://www.lowbird.com/data/images/2011/06/34.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1993529:date=Oct 18 2012, 07:54 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Oct 18 2012, 07:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Am i the only one who doesnt know about these awesome mods everybody is using? :/

    <img src="http://www.lowbird.com/data/images/2011/06/34.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Seriously. I don't even mod my reticule. Hell, I haven't even played a competitive game with atmospherics turned off (though I plan to play my future ones like that, now that I've recently converted). Sounds like another case of people finding any excuse they can to tell themselves someone isn't more skilled than them.

    Also, double gifs across the thread.
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    The dot doesn't turn red when a bite is guaranteed to land (although I think that could be a cool feature to help determine range if UWE put it in). It's just the hit indicator that turns red after you have landed a hit, which is actually less visible than the default and also not very accurate. It's better to use the numbers that now display when you successfully hit a target.

    If you see a player with a high K/D who is playing well, it is not because he has a different crosshair or minimal alien vision mod. These players would be doing equally well with all default settings. I guess it is easy to think that because you can't comprehend that someone is that good, there must be some other factor at play, but there isn't. If you notice, competitive players are never the ones to complain about others using crosshairs or other hud mods. If there was truly something giving an advantage you can bet your ass that they'd be the first to point it out.
  • LigisttomtenLigisttomten Join Date: 2012-09-07 Member: 158340Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1993529:date=Oct 19 2012, 01:54 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Oct 19 2012, 01:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Am i the only one who doesnt know about these awesome mods everybody is using? :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yeah, seriously, some links please.
  • eh?eh? Join Date: 2012-03-03 Member: 147997Members
    <a href="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=100145450&searchtext=" target="_blank">http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/file...amp;searchtext=</a>

    for starters
  • ChickenOfWarChickenOfWar Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1993498:date=Oct 18 2012, 07:15 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Oct 18 2012, 07:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993498"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the idea of a 'glancing bite' in another thread would be a good start. Two bite cones, one wide, one narrow. Wide one gets you some damage (25 maybe?), narrow one gets you full damage (75). Little to no influence on top end damage output, but would make the skulk skill curve a little less steep at the beginning. You'd have a more gradual increase in damage with skill as you go from landing no bites, to landing only wide bites, to landing a mix, to being able to reliably land the narrow bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Oh my god a glancing bite. That is actually really freakin genius. Simple yet effective.
  • PheusPheus Join Date: 2003-01-30 Member: 12924Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1993557:date=Oct 19 2012, 10:25 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Oct 19 2012, 10:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you see a player with a high K/D who is playing well, it is not because he has a different crosshair or minimal alien vision mod. These players would be doing equally well with all default settings. I guess it is easy to think that because you can't comprehend that someone is that good, there must be some other factor at play, but there isn't. If you notice, competitive players are never the ones to complain about others using crosshairs or other hud mods. If there was truly something giving an advantage you can bet your ass that they'd be the first to point it out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Obviously it varies with person to person, but my aim is significantly better with dot crosshairs. I find it harder to keep concentration on the target with circles and rings and lines etc all over the middle of the screen
  • unkindunkind Join Date: 2012-02-04 Member: 143563Members
    Changing the xhair to whatever the hell you want shouldn't be considered bad either lol. Every game should let you do that.
  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1993499:date=Oct 19 2012, 09:26 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 19 2012, 09:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993499"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the kind of experiment I talked about in the OP, that could end up being fantastic, but would require extensive testing first. Simply not feasible until after release.

    I can guarantee you, Techersizer, that the suggestions in the OP will not have a negative impact on top level play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    FYI, a 25 dmg glancing bite was just showcased in Hugh's 224 teaser.
  • Squirreli_Squirreli_ Join Date: 2012-04-25 Member: 151046Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1993602:date=Oct 19 2012, 09:06 AM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Oct 19 2012, 09:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993602"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->FYI, a 25 dmg glancing bite was just showcased in Hugh's 224 teaser.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    ... and so that everyone doesn't have to actually search for that 224 teaser video, here it is: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlocANAW2Y0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlocANAW2Y0</a>
  • GlissGliss Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14800Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester
    and just so everyone doesn't have to search for the time it's 11:15
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    edited October 2012
    If we are talking about two bite cones, I'd the like the idea that the low dmg cone wouldn't only be wider, but also have a slighty longer range in general. It could add a little more trickery to how you use your bites in general.

    As in general, I really like the idea of dual bite cones. It's a relatively simple and elegant mechanic that still seems to do it's job. This is exactly the kind of stuff I'd like see from NS2.
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1993602:date=Oct 19 2012, 07:06 AM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Oct 19 2012, 07:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993602"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->FYI, a 25 dmg glancing bite was just showcased in Hugh's 224 teaser.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Welp, I guess ns2 wasn't feature complete after all. I think it's nuts that they're still experimenting so close to release, but I guess we'll just have to see how it works out.
  • piratedavepiratedave Join Date: 2012-03-10 Member: 148561Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1993623:date=Oct 19 2012, 01:19 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 19 2012, 01:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993623"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Welp, I guess ns2 wasn't feature complete after all. I think it's nuts that they're still experimenting so close to release, but I guess we'll just have to see how it works out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    maybe patch 224 will be codenamed 'Ok, lockdown for realz this time'
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    Having "half-bites" is not an uninteresting idea but there some potential issues with it:

    - It breaks the "x bite to kill' rule.
    - Discontinuity; a sharp boundary between half-bite and full bite make things a bit random and hard to learn. A continuous damage in function of aim would be better in this respect, something like that:

    <a href="http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot%28+75-50*x%5E4+%2F+%28x%5E4+%2B+0.3%5E4%29%2C++x+in+-1+..+1" target="_blank">http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot%...C++x+in+-1+..+1</a>

    About the skulk, I'm not sure but sometimes I feel like the relative speed of skulk and marines are off, I mean in some situation the marines seems to go faster than the skulk, which makes connecting bites physically impossible regardless of aiming. One has to make sure than a skulk that doesn't make any mistake is always faster than a marine.
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1993623:date=Oct 19 2012, 06:19 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 19 2012, 06:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993623"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Welp, I guess ns2 wasn't feature complete after all. I think it's nuts that they're still experimenting so close to release, but I guess we'll just have to see how it works out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I've found the continued tweaking beyond 'lockdown' curious.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    I think glancing bites are only going to add to the problem, aliens players will see their bite hit but only at 25 damage. ''WHY ARENT YOU DYING I BIT YOU 3 TIMES''. Causing more frustration and confusion with the biting mechanic... Though I suppose we should wait and see

    Big +1 to the analysis in this thread.

    You forgot one thing though: skulk scaling Without this, skulk play will be unsatisfying or outright frustrating later on in the game.

    Oh, and bring back focus pleaaaase
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1993635:date=Oct 19 2012, 10:11 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Oct 19 2012, 10:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having "half-bites" is not an uninteresting idea but there some potential issues with it:

    - It breaks the "x bite to kill' rule.
    - Discontinuity; a sharp boundary between half-bite and full bite make things a bit random and hard to learn. A continuous damage in function of aim would be better in this respect, something like that:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    To me it felt still like a potentially good idea as long as

    1. There are clear indicators on what kind of damage you're dealing with each bites. Sound effects and such are good. Obviously also the concept itself needs to be simple enough that you don't have to guess angles and such.

    2. The bite itself works reliable enough that you can actually consistently land full dmg bites when you deserve to land one.


    I don't find discontinuity that big of a problem really. The regular bite is all or nothing, the new one just adds a bit of middle ground.

    All in all, I think the whole thing might be beneficial <b>if</b> done properly. Of course there are a dozen at least equally worthy targets for their development time too. I guess I mostly want them to do this properly or skip the whole thing. Doing it halfway is going to make it a mess.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2012
    They should have the numbers in different colours for the glance and the normal bite.
  • PsympleJesterPsympleJester Join Date: 2008-04-06 Member: 64024Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1993636:date=Oct 19 2012, 10:22 AM:name=Mouse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mouse @ Oct 19 2012, 10:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've found the continued tweaking beyond 'lockdown' curious.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    As said, it seems like more of a tweak than a new feature to me.
    I cant imagine it was two difficult to change a single 75 cone to two
    overlapping 25 and 50 dmg cones.

    I think it is a good fix to the problem. It means in skulk rushes
    the more accurate bites will do the same damage as they do now
    and those who are struggling will still contribute to the damage of
    the melee.
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    Well it all depends on how they implement the ranges for 25 and 75 damage.

    If they split the current cone into 25/75 damage then yea i can see that being interesting because it raises the skill ceiling.

    However, if they simply extend the current cone and make hits in the extension do 25 damage, i don't see any real benefit from just having one 75 damage cone. In fact i would argue that such an implementation is detrimental because it lowers the skill ceiling in specific circumstances without any real impact on the 'skulk problem' or number of bites (25 damage pretty much as the same effect as 0 damage in most circumstances).

    All of that aside, i agree with yuuki that independant of implementation, its always going to feel arbitrary. In the end, I honestly don't see a need for partial hits or any problem it solves, so yea experimenting with what ammounts to new features is kinda puzzling.

    *This is quite clearly a feature, not simply a tweak because it doesn't exactly solve anything and adds quite a significant new system. A tweak would be something like changing the bite cone radius.

    +1 fana as usual

    *more edit*
    Marine air acceleration is a bit crazy right now and i don't exactly remember it being this high in past builds either.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    The concept of a glancing bite scares me.. a lot. Whether or not it really exists or will be implemented, the idea is a terrible one due entirely to how multiplayer games function.

    Object collisions are notoriously awful in online multiplayer games. There are enough complexities involved in simply getting a ray traced projectile to connect with the target as the user would expect. When trying to collide two objects which exist only in subjective positioning as far as the user is concerned, while actually existing in an objective server side position which no player ever sees, it becomes essentially impossible to do in an acceptable manner. L4D sure as hell couldn't do it. Charging or leaping directly at your target in L4D2 would be an ensured miss.

    What this essentially means is that a glancing bite is a skill based mechanic which relies on information the player "doesn't have". That is to say, the reward for biting a marine varies based on how accurate your bite is, however, your accuracy relies on where you bite in relation to your target, but you have absolutely no clue where your target is, and you also have no clue where you are, because only the server knows that for sure.
  • MelatoninMelatonin Babbler Join Date: 2003-03-15 Member: 14551Members, Constellation
    ++

    I agree that skulks have been very frustrating post 221.
    people on EU servers seem pretty demoralised playing alien, very little talking in general, and it takes a sizeable alien stack to have a chance of getting a win, even then, its often a long and gruelling game unless the marine comm doesn't know what's happening.
    (it feels like 90% of the game you are losing, until suddenly the marines give up)

    I think that the glancing blows effect is risky though, so close to launch, and potentially confusing to players.
    (I like being able to count two bites, and know that a retiring parasite will get the kill if backup is coming)

    re: the learn to play arguments.
    I have close to 600 hours logged, and a good idea of what feels 'fair'. 222+ skulk bite doesn't.
    skulks <i>need the advantage in close quarters</i>, right now, I think even getting into melee range only gives you a ~30% chance of killing a lone jumping marine.
    while it might feel nice to think that 'people wouldn't have such a hard time if they were as good as me', the reality is that most of the people who have just started playing will leave before they realise what NS2 can be, and the community will be worse for it.
  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Members
    i knew the addition of sprint would cause problems, and this is exactly the outcome. remove sprint, fix knock back, add back the range attacks to fade and lerk.
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1993654:date=Oct 19 2012, 11:49 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Oct 19 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they split the current cone into 25/75 damage then yea i can see that being interesting because it raises the skill ceiling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Nonsense. This wouldn't raise the skill ceiling at all. It would just make marines even easier to play. Making a mechanic harder != raising the skill ceiling. The skill ceiling is to do with the ratio of skill required compared to the effectiveness of that mechanic. By keeping the damage the same but making it harder to aim, you are effectively just nerfing everyone. You are not making the players at the top end capable of being any better than they were previously - at best they can hope they have enough skill to maintain the same level of effectiveness.

    A change like this would just raise the skill floor of the skulk even more (make it even harder for average skilled players) and also lower the skill ceiling for marines even more (make it even easier to be effective as a marine).
  • unkindunkind Join Date: 2012-02-04 Member: 143563Members
    With 25/75 marines die way faster when swarmed, so they can't kill 2 skulks before going down (that was more bite-knockback related though lol).

    It rewards aliens getting better at the game slowly.

    It makes hit and run easier

    It is interesting imo

    I think lerk had it too, but for 20 dmg.
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1993667:date=Oct 19 2012, 10:28 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Oct 19 2012, 10:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nonsense. This wouldn't raise the skill ceiling at all. It would just make marines even easier to play. Making a mechanic harder != raising the skill ceiling. The skill ceiling is to do with the ratio of skill required compared to the effectiveness of that mechanic. By keeping the damage the same but making it harder to aim, you are effectively just nerfing everyone. You are not making the players at the top end capable of being any better than they were previously - at best they can hope they have enough skill to maintain the same level of effectiveness.

    A change like this would just raise the skill floor of the skulk even more (make it even harder for average skilled players) and also lower the skill ceiling for marines even more (make it even easier to be effective as a marine).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    no you're right :). But i meant in terms of consistent biting over long periods of time.

    e.g. Anyone can one shot a skulk with a shotgun. Great shotgunners do it constantly and consistently.
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1993654:date=Oct 19 2012, 11:49 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Oct 19 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well it all depends on how they implement the ranges for 25 and 75 damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I think think where it potentially starts raising the skill ceiling and being interesting is if the outer cone has slightly more reach and allows you to play with the number math. For example an armorless marine goes down to 75 + anything that does 25 or more. If you actually can reliably land bites, you can either get the first bite earlier or have a bit more roaming space on where you are positioned when you land the 2nd one.

    All this requires really solid hit detection and bite targetting mechanics though. That's where I see the biggest barriers for making this work in a skillful way.
  • PsympleJesterPsympleJester Join Date: 2008-04-06 Member: 64024Members
    edited October 2012
    I HAZ QUESTION!

    If the bite is widened to have a bigger cone.... Can I now hit 2 targets at once with my bite? (I mean is it physically possible)

    Also the only change this gives is a boost to skulks bite, sure 25 damage is bad but if it means that a skulk does 75 dmg instead of 0 dmg
    its a good thing and I totally endorse this change and think that the small extra damage will actually make a very large difference on games.

    It still keeps the skill ceiling for full 75 dmg at the same hight but allows people who arnt quite hitting the sweet spot on every bite to still
    do damage instead of no damage.
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    Huh, that was fast. Wonder if they saw the suggestion and went "omg yes! Put it in now!" or they had thought of it independently and the timing is just coincidence.
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