<!--quoteo(post=1992914:date=Oct 17 2012, 02:11 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Oct 17 2012, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For comparision in NS1 base skulk speed was 290, and bhop averaged about 550 IIRC, with celerity going even higher. Thats almost a doubling in speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fade blink is still not polished enough like I said remove the speed nerf so you can tap like in ns1.
As for skulk speed... in ns1 you couldnt jump fast and accurately between walls and props like you can in NS2. You can't have the best of both worlds and expect the movement to stay balanced.... unless im getting 100 fps.
<!--quoteo(post=1992846:date=Oct 17 2012, 05:59 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 17 2012, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992846"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't remember the exact values anymore, but skulk base speed was around 300, which you could get up to around 450 with bunnyhopping and around 700 with celerity and bunnyhopping. You say something that's very important though, when you mention "predictable patterns", which is exactly what balanced bunnyhopping to my mind. To a player familiar with the bunnyhopping pattern, tracking skulks even moving at 700 speed was a piece of cake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah. I think the general rule of bhop was that with high level execution you could go 1.8 times the base speed (I think the vanilla skulk cap was somewhere around 530, top hoppers kept going above 500 consistently). Celerity multiplied the base speed by the factor of 1.3. As a result the top speed celerity bhop skulk went about 2.35 times the vanilla skulk base movement speed.
I don't know if there's that much to learn from the exact numbers, but I guess it's good to understand the proportions of the speed gain. 1.8 times base speed, with celerity clearly over double the vanilla running speed.
And I by no means want to implicate this is exactly the way NS2 should handle the skulk gameplay. However, I think it's important to understand how the high potential speed contributes to skulk being a satisfying lifeform to play. It's a little the pistol of NS1; you know that in theory it can destory 2 skulks in a blink of an eye even if it doesn't happen ingame more than once in a lifetime. Yet that potential means that you keep coming back again and again, trying to improve and make use of that potential you've got at your disposal. Even after all these years, every time I watch NS1 fragmovie or trickjump clip, it makes me want to play the game again and try pull off the same stuff.
NS1 had wallhop and while it was somewhat more limited it still allowed movement similar to NS2 currently.. I think marko had a clip in his fragvideo as skulk wallbouncing to a marine in double on origin that shows it quite well...
Im not saying NS2 skulk needs that same speed increase potential but remember the skulk is larger, wider, and how much slower currently in NS2? Its important to remember that NS1 could have that speed because it was predicable.. you cannot combine to much speed with too much evasion.. and having only one really limits play also, you need both so that skillful play requires creative thinking and a combination of both styles to maximize your effectiveness in every potential situation, and also that those options are available to counterbalance increased levels of marine accuracy.
I have to say I'm quite happy with the current Skulk jump mechanics. It's very close to what I first envisioned it could become, and I think it has more depth than most people give it credit. There seem to be a lot of misconceptions floating around though. Both stemming from an unwillingness from people to learn new things and the fact that it has been changing a lot from build to build.
Here's something I wrote for someone asking me how the current Skulk works. I think it's worth posting for everyone. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically wallljumping adds a boost in the direction you're facing on top of your current velocity. So depending on your angle coming into the wall and your view angle this can results in either an increase or decrease in speed (the more parallell to the wall the jump is, the bigger the increase). In any case a walljump will always set your speed to a minimum of 8.5.
When it comes to friction there are two factors, ground friction and air friction. On the ground or a wall you are affected by ground friction but this only kicks in 0.3 seconds after you land. This means that if you time your jumps right you will only be affected by air friction. Air friction will always slow you down while in the air, but you will also gain speed from the transfer of downwards velocity into forward velocity, and of course from walljumping. So if you do it right you will gain enough speed to cancel out the air friction and get a net increase.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now, I'm not saying it's perfect. I agree with fana that the acceleration gained from falling is a bit much. I think it could ramp out faster and at a lower level. I can also see your point that it's not as skill based as bunnyhopping. I don't really like time based mechanics but I could see various methods of making wall jumping more difficult, like having the optimal angle depend on speed and whatnot. But is the current iteration really that bad? Shouldn't the skill lie in how you utilise the acceleration rather than how you gain it?
So lately each new patch has drastically changed how skulk wall jump mechanics works. I wonder how many people know how to use the current iteration. Is it really 'skill' based movement or is it more like secret movement hax?
IMHO each time it changes, UWE should put out a short video explaining it. <strike>Veteran</strike> Frequent players already have a huge advantage over <strike>newbies</strike> occasional players. Not demonstrating how wall jump works just compounds that advantage.
I know there have been vids in the past, and yes it might feel like wasted effort making such a video if it only changes again in the future, but please consider this: All the feedback you're collecting on wall jump is coming from a tiny percentage of the beta players. Seems contradictory to the purpose of a beta...
<!--quoteo(post=1993149:date=Oct 18 2012, 07:00 PM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Oct 18 2012, 07:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993149"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to say I'm quite happy with the current Skulk jump mechanics. It's very close to what I first envisioned it could become, and I think it has more depth than most people give it credit. There seem to be a lot of misconceptions floating around though. Both stemming from an unwillingness from people to learn new things and the fact that it has been changing a lot from build to build.
Here's something I wrote for someone asking me how the current Skulk works. I think it's worth posting for everyone.
Now, I'm not saying it's perfect. I agree with fana that the acceleration gained from falling is a bit much. I think it could ramp out faster and at a lower level. I can also see your point that it's not as skill based as bunnyhopping. I don't really like time based mechanics but I could see various methods of making wall jumping more difficult, like having the optimal angle depend on speed and whatnot. But is the current iteration really that bad? Shouldn't the skill lie in how you utilise the acceleration rather than how you gain it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well sure it should...as long as how you gain it does not rule it out as being actually useable. On the basis thats it not commonly achievable (especially when under fire and trying to track marines whilst dodging) for most players and its mechanic is far from logical as otherwise there would not be so many issues and frustrations with it. Timing based mechanics may seem lame but they work, people understand them, they are easier than trying to bounce of multiple surfaces (we are not all 1337 gamers who spend every hour of our lives playing NS...too old for that). By adding a impact angle sure does sound fancy....and helps make this mechanic (which is crucial for skulks) so much less accessible to even more people.
I would rather see recoil added to marines to increase their skill ceiling (seeing as its pretty much just point and click in comparison to aliens) rather than people constantly nerfing aliens movement further.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMHO each time it changes, UWE should put out a short video explaining it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah it would be nice to have things officially explained. A video wouldnt even be needed for most people, just a brief of explanation of changes rather than saying it was simply "updated" or "changed".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So depending on your angle coming into the wall and your view angle this can results in either an increase or decrease in speed (the more parallell to the wall the jump is, the bigger the increase). In any case a walljump will always set your speed to a minimum of 8.5.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've only done about 15 minutes of testing with the speed bar this patch, most wall jumps are giving me a speed of 9 or just over when i hit the ground. I'm finding the angle at which you jump onto or off the wall has little effect, it's all about jumping upwards so you get enough height to gain downwards velocity. It's fun n all when just moving around, but fairly useless in actual combat. all that airtime needed for gains is less time spent chomping and more time for the marine to shoot you.
What I would like to see:-
-As a few others have said, an update similar to what happened to marines. Make the skulks movements feel more responsive. -Give walljump a bit more instant ummphhh the second you jump off the wall. It would help it be more useful in combat.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1992815:date=Oct 17 2012, 09:03 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 17 2012, 09:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm mainly worried about how trying to turn as a Lerk has a chance to freeze you in the air; that's instant death if someone with half-competent aim has a shotgun nearby, and it makes trying to skirmish with bite basically impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fixed for 224
<!--quoteo(post=1993622:date=Oct 19 2012, 07:17 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Oct 19 2012, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fixed for 224<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Very good to hear!
I would just like to put in my half-pence saying I enjoy skulk movement...
One leap and you can maintain crazy bunny hopping speeds for a considerable distance, Its also not too difficult to maintain these speeds in combat. :)
Comments
Fade blink is still not polished enough like I said remove the speed nerf so you can tap like in ns1.
As for skulk speed... in ns1 you couldnt jump fast and accurately between walls and props like you can in NS2. You can't have the best of both worlds and expect the movement to stay balanced.... unless im getting 100 fps.
Yeah. I think the general rule of bhop was that with high level execution you could go 1.8 times the base speed (I think the vanilla skulk cap was somewhere around 530, top hoppers kept going above 500 consistently). Celerity multiplied the base speed by the factor of 1.3. As a result the top speed celerity bhop skulk went about 2.35 times the vanilla skulk base movement speed.
I don't know if there's that much to learn from the exact numbers, but I guess it's good to understand the proportions of the speed gain. 1.8 times base speed, with celerity clearly over double the vanilla running speed.
And I by no means want to implicate this is exactly the way NS2 should handle the skulk gameplay. However, I think it's important to understand how the high potential speed contributes to skulk being a satisfying lifeform to play. It's a little the pistol of NS1; you know that in theory it can destory 2 skulks in a blink of an eye even if it doesn't happen ingame more than once in a lifetime. Yet that potential means that you keep coming back again and again, trying to improve and make use of that potential you've got at your disposal. Even after all these years, every time I watch NS1 fragmovie or trickjump clip, it makes me want to play the game again and try pull off the same stuff.
Im not saying NS2 skulk needs that same speed increase potential but remember the skulk is larger, wider, and how much slower currently in NS2? Its important to remember that NS1 could have that speed because it was predicable.. you cannot combine to much speed with too much evasion.. and having only one really limits play also, you need both so that skillful play requires creative thinking and a combination of both styles to maximize your effectiveness in every potential situation, and also that those options are available to counterbalance increased levels of marine accuracy.
<a href="http://blog.advantagediets.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/fat-dog.jpg" target="_blank">What skulks actually feel like.</a>
Here's something I wrote for someone asking me how the current Skulk works. I think it's worth posting for everyone.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically wallljumping adds a boost in the direction you're facing on top of your current velocity. So depending on your angle coming into the wall and your view angle this can results in either an increase or decrease in speed (the more parallell to the wall the jump is, the bigger the increase). In any case a walljump will always set your speed to a minimum of 8.5.
When it comes to friction there are two factors, ground friction and air friction. On the ground or a wall you are affected by ground friction but this only kicks in 0.3 seconds after you land. This means that if you time your jumps right you will only be affected by air friction. Air friction will always slow you down while in the air, but you will also gain speed from the transfer of downwards velocity into forward velocity, and of course from walljumping. So if you do it right you will gain enough speed to cancel out the air friction and get a net increase.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now, I'm not saying it's perfect. I agree with fana that the acceleration gained from falling is a bit much. I think it could ramp out faster and at a lower level. I can also see your point that it's not as skill based as bunnyhopping. I don't really like time based mechanics but I could see various methods of making wall jumping more difficult, like having the optimal angle depend on speed and whatnot. But is the current iteration really that bad? Shouldn't the skill lie in how you utilise the acceleration rather than how you gain it?
IMHO each time it changes, UWE should put out a short video explaining it. <strike>Veteran</strike> Frequent players already have a huge advantage over <strike>newbies</strike> occasional players. Not demonstrating how wall jump works just compounds that advantage.
I know there have been vids in the past, and yes it might feel like wasted effort making such a video if it only changes again in the future, but please consider this: All the feedback you're collecting on wall jump is coming from a tiny percentage of the beta players. Seems contradictory to the purpose of a beta...
Here's something I wrote for someone asking me how the current Skulk works. I think it's worth posting for everyone.
Now, I'm not saying it's perfect. I agree with fana that the acceleration gained from falling is a bit much. I think it could ramp out faster and at a lower level. I can also see your point that it's not as skill based as bunnyhopping. I don't really like time based mechanics but I could see various methods of making wall jumping more difficult, like having the optimal angle depend on speed and whatnot. But is the current iteration really that bad? Shouldn't the skill lie in how you utilise the acceleration rather than how you gain it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well sure it should...as long as how you gain it does not rule it out as being actually useable.
On the basis thats it not commonly achievable (especially when under fire and trying to track marines whilst dodging) for most players and its mechanic is far from logical as otherwise there would not be so many issues and frustrations with it.
Timing based mechanics may seem lame but they work, people understand them, they are easier than trying to bounce of multiple surfaces (we are not all 1337 gamers who spend every hour of our lives playing NS...too old for that).
By adding a impact angle sure does sound fancy....and helps make this mechanic (which is crucial for skulks) so much less accessible to even more people.
I would rather see recoil added to marines to increase their skill ceiling (seeing as its pretty much just point and click in comparison to aliens) rather than people constantly nerfing aliens movement further.
<a href="http://blog.advantagediets.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/fat-dog.jpg" target="_blank">What skulks actually feel like.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
haha perfect absolutely perfect!
Yeah it would be nice to have things officially explained. A video wouldnt even be needed for most people, just a brief of explanation of changes rather than saying it was simply "updated" or "changed".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So depending on your angle coming into the wall and your view angle this can results in either an increase or decrease in speed (the more parallell to the wall the jump is, the bigger the increase). In any case a walljump will always set your speed to a minimum of 8.5.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've only done about 15 minutes of testing with the speed bar this patch, most wall jumps are giving me a speed of 9 or just over when i hit the ground. I'm finding the angle at which you jump onto or off the wall has little effect, it's all about jumping upwards so you get enough height to gain downwards velocity. It's fun n all when just moving around, but fairly useless in actual combat. all that airtime needed for gains is less time spent chomping and more time for the marine to shoot you.
What I would like to see:-
-As a few others have said, an update similar to what happened to marines. Make the skulks movements feel more responsive.
-Give walljump a bit more instant ummphhh the second you jump off the wall. It would help it be more useful in combat.
Fixed for 224
Very good to hear!
One leap and you can maintain crazy bunny hopping speeds for a considerable distance,
Its also not too difficult to maintain these speeds in combat. :)