24-26 player servers.. more imbalances...
CodeCowboy
Join Date: 2012-09-21 Member: 160235Members
Join Date: 2012-09-21 Member: 160235Members
I've taken to playing on a couple servers which allow a lot more players (I'm assuming because the server is now more efficient).
However, in these modes marines still seem to dominate given that fire can be easily massed down hallways... not sure if devs care about such large games, but it definitely seems much more difficult to play aliens.
Don't get me wrong, aliens can still win... when they really coordinate strongly and rove in packs... but even then they can forget it down halls of any length if the marines are remotely coordinated.
It seems to be a question of the amount of effort required to coordinate. Feels like marines are much more "easy mode". At least that's how I feel while playing a marine.
However, in these modes marines still seem to dominate given that fire can be easily massed down hallways... not sure if devs care about such large games, but it definitely seems much more difficult to play aliens.
Don't get me wrong, aliens can still win... when they really coordinate strongly and rove in packs... but even then they can forget it down halls of any length if the marines are remotely coordinated.
It seems to be a question of the amount of effort required to coordinate. Feels like marines are much more "easy mode". At least that's how I feel while playing a marine.
Comments
Thanks for allowing me to derail.
If you want to actually play NS2 with some strategy and skill then you should stick to 16 or 18 player pub servers.
If you want to actually play NS2 with some strategy and skill then you should stick to 16 or 18 player pub servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^This.
UWE should officially suggest how many players the game is balanced for. While server admins are happy to put up huge servers, I'd rather the community simply respect what the game is intended to be balanced for, so players and server admins both know the guidelines (but may always optionally play in their own server rulesets). Is UWE balancing it for competitive play first, with smaller teams? or bigger 9 people teams?
I would say dont go above 14 if you want balance, 18 is still more marine favoured though not as bad as 24's.
With 36players aliens can do alright..but few servers will be able to do this.
Its a shame really as I think that we all want to play on bigger maps with more people. Heck its more fun especially on your bigger maps like veil where 6v6 is rather lonely.
If you want to actually play NS2 with some strategy and skill then you should stick to 16 or 18 player pub servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh good, I thought I would miss my daily dose of elitism. Thanks for topping me up.
I think its impossible to balance a game like this one for such a wide range of player counts. I think the game is perfectly balanced for around 6-8 a side. The difference within that varying player count should be largely unnoticeable. As you start getting to 9 and 10 it may become less than zero, but the difference is still small enough to not really impact any game. Outside of that you can't really expect the game to perform predictably in terms of balance. Its worth mentioning that no other game, that I can think of at least, has had this amount of asymmetry in a game that is fully intended to be as balanced as possible.
I just don't think 100% balance in every conceivable situation is a reasonable expectation.
I think its impossible to balance a game like this one for such a wide range of player counts. I think the game is perfectly balanced for around 6-8 a side. The difference within that varying player count should be largely unnoticeable. As you start getting to 9 and 10 it may become less than zero, but the difference is still small enough to not really impact any game. Outside of that you can't really expect the game to perform predictably in terms of balance. Its worth mentioning that no other game, that I can think of at least, has had this amount of asymmetry in a game that is fully intended to be as balanced as possible.
I just don't think 100% balance in every conceivable situation is a reasonable expectation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for complaining about what I wrote and then restating the exact same thing in a more convoluted and less readable way.
I suggest you reread your post. It had absolutely nothing to do with the difficulty of balancing for widely varying player counts. In fact it never made reference to any imbalances that may arise, it simply stated that anyone playing in a game with a particular player count is bad at the game and should feel bad.
As another note, you'd think for assured stability and performance sake you'd want the server to stick to a balanced number and stop going up, but then again you need a monster of a server for this game, maybe the temptation to max it out is too much.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Xenocide, Umbra, and Stomp are all AOE abilities that even the odds against large number of Marines who are clumped. It is unfortunate that they are considered as "end game" abilities.
It's a bit less true in NS2 because of line of fire block and 3D stuff, but probably apply to some degree.
Then finite size effects: map size is fixed, etc.
Everything with damage over area (shotgun, gl, mine) becomes stronger with higher player count.
=> balance nightmare. The pres scaling was supposed to solve all that, but it was maybe a bit optimistic...
What exacerbates the ranged vs. melee problem is that nothing in the game actually scales with player numbers (someone mentioned egg spawn rate scales, but I'm not even sure about that, even so it's the only thing that scales if so).
The strats you can pull with a 12-14 player team are amazing
Having 3 front lines suddenly becomes manageable
When you think the game is lost you check the score tab and see 3 people with 75+ pres and suddenly turn it around
It's not all brute force either. . . the level of clever tactics I'm seeing are nearly twice as much as I'm used to seeing on these servers
8v8 is the sweet amount for pubs imo. 10v10 is perfectly playable, anything after that I don't even join any more.
However, in these modes marines still seem to dominate given that fire can be easily massed down hallways... not sure if devs care about such large games, but it definitely seems much more difficult to play aliens.
Don't get me wrong, aliens can still win... when they really coordinate strongly and rove in packs... but even then they can forget it down halls of any length if the marines are remotely coordinated.
It seems to be a question of the amount of effort required to coordinate. Feels like marines are much more "easy mode". At least that's how I feel while playing a marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally disagree I was playing with you on the same server the other day and the win rates of aliens and marines (I played about 15-20 matches in a row (some were very short)) was about equal.
As to stopping power node rushes, in large games you have crazy resources to spend on turrets and mines... no skulk should be able to get near your power node. (Bile bomb rushes are a huuuuge problem)
Infact we had a game where Aliens where drastically losing till we did a 2 man bile rush on one of their 3 bases and managed to get a 3rd hive. Mass bilebomb and xenocide spam provided the Alien counter to GL spam that we needed to not lose the game. Game lasted 50 mins and aliens finally clawed back a victory.
The balance issues you SHOULD be addressing with HUGE games are.
Egg locks: no matter how many players you have eggs spawn at the same rate. If the marines push into your hive in the first 30 seconds and shoot eggs the game WILL end and dropping a shift with your starting tres is a horrible way to damage your early game. Although this I suppose is mirrored by IP's but not as badly.
Grenade launchers: When you have 13 players with grenade launchers all you have to do is walk into the alien hive with 2 groups of 5 marines and each group shoot the other groups feet. I am seriously beginning to advocate friendly fire... xD
But then again that can be countered by Xeno, Gas, Spit (yes gorge spit is awesome in large numbers vs large numbers) (you cant miss if your shooting at 10 marines) and people working as a team.
Marines are generally moves slower than aliens and thus they tend to move in hordes and backup close to each other. Aliens on the other hand are quite fast and can literally be all over the map, because of this. This shifts the game towards the marine's advantage. I.e. if nobody thinks about teamplay, the marines automatically have the upper hand. If everyone is aware of the importance of teamplay though, the game is very balanced.
I loved the 32 player severs in NS1 and I think I will also enjoy the larger games in NS2. I think MaximumSquid said it best, that the chance to comeback and have crazier battles is better with more players.
In theory NS2 should scale better due to the reworked economy. Aliens just have to realize how to exert force en masse without everyone getting themselves killed and cover the whole map with teeth biting EVERYTHING.
Plus, I sometimes just want to kill lots and lots of people can carea b ti less about being the one person of the 6-man team.