fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1999354:date=Oct 29 2012, 03:26 AM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Oct 29 2012, 03:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Generally there is some intermediate punishment for infractions before a ban. Like a warning.
This is like soccer where ever foul is a red card.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This, basically. The problem here isn't really that there was a reaction -- a "captains only chat" rule is reasonable enough -- the problem is the severity of the reaction. Banning players and teams for minor infractions is grossly disproportionate and shoddy admining.
Honestly though, I'm even more shocked by eh getting kicked from PT because he made a few comments in the twitch stream chat -- comments which were entirely unrelated to anything he has done as PT. Not only does it make no sense, but it means the PT team loses its last remaining participant with experience with top tier competitive play.
I think there is definitely something here that has to be looked at. It's really rare that a player is banned from a tournament like this and there is a good reason for that. Tournaments are for the players and rules are there to make sure that the games go on while everyone can enjoy them.
Sure it was a really bad call from the players that lost their temper and typed something inappropriate but in such mild cases I doubt banning was really necessary. A fair warning would have been enough.
... provide an option for streamers to disable chat.
Every single ban or attempted ban in this launch tournament was a complete overreaction from the POV of every single competitive player I've spoken with. If what Colt said was ban worthy, then please either turn off your chat or close your eyes. It's getting absolutely ridiculous.
Why would something that tame be ban-worthy, when nothing (to my knowledge) was put against Archaea for winning a tournament (Guru?) through a tactic they considered cheap (Skulk Rush), Fana then stating in chat that it was cheap and needed to change, and Scrajm in his interview saying several related things?
Not that Archaea <i>should </i>have had any disciplinary action taken against them, but if the Admins flip out over one lone comment, you'd think that would have made their heads explode. It's not just over the top, it's inconsistent.
<!--quoteo(post=1999368:date=Oct 28 2012, 09:39 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Oct 28 2012, 09:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999368"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the clear solution is to simply....
... provide an option for streamers to disable chat.
Every single ban or attempted ban in this launch tournament was a complete overreaction from the POV of every single competitive player I've spoken with. If what Colt said was ban worthy, then please either turn off your chat or close your eyes. It's getting absolutely ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could argue that Colt's case was bad because he gg'ed before his team captain did, and that might screw up the other team etc etc.
But he also criticized the game, and both of eh?'s bans also came for criticizing the game, so it looks like that was the relevant factor.
I have to agree with the PT comments, the removal of certain people while others are allowed to stay is pretty ridiculous to say the least, and it just shows how the group is not really managed in a meaningful way. Pretty sure my removal from PT was a huge overreaction to what was a disagreement between two people on a server, especially when the other person happened to be and still is a PT, and when that person had said to me personally the exact words that got me kicked out.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1999369:date=Oct 29 2012, 03:42 AM:name=Captain Ventris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Captain Ventris @ Oct 29 2012, 03:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would something that tame be ban-worthy, when nothing (to my knowledge) was put against Archaea for winning a tournament (Guru?) through a tactic they considered cheap (Skulk Rush), Fana then stating in chat that it was cheap and needed to change, and Scrajm in his interview saying several related things?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We never complained that it was cheap, we tried to make a point of it being too strong. If you watch the games between the top teams in today's tournament, you'll notice that everyone researches mines first and spams them in base to avoid baserushes. May as well just have the marines start with free mines, since you're forced to research them first anyway...
<!--quoteo(post=1999375:date=Oct 28 2012, 09:48 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 28 2012, 09:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We never complained that it was cheap, we tried to make a point of it being too strong. If you watch the games between the top teams in this tournament, you'll notice that everyone researches mines first and spams them in base to avoid baserushes. May as well just have the marines start with free mines, since you're forced to research them first anyway...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd rather instant-research mines at present costs. Spend that starting res for defense, or try to horde it to boost your tech at your own risk.
I thought you specifically stated that it was cheap. Eh.
Not saying I disagree that it's overly powerful, but it was a similar situation as far as statements go to yonder Onos Resilience.
Even if this is primarily about GG'ing before the team Captain, an insta-ban is still a bit much. An actual clarification on the precise purpose of the bans would be awful nice.
<!--quoteo(post=1999375:date=Oct 28 2012, 09:48 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 28 2012, 09:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We never complained that it was cheap, we tried to make a point of it being too strong. If you watch the games between the top teams in today's tournament, you'll notice that everyone researches mines first and spams them in base to avoid baserushes. May as well just have the marines start with free mines, since you're forced to research them first anyway...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even then, I think the guy's point still stands that you expressed something was too strong, and Colt here expressed that Onos were too strong. It's odd that the two situations were treated so differently.
I'm also really disappointed that Eh is no longer a PT, we needed more like him and he's always come across to me as a calm reasonable person. Felt the same way about Dragon...
<!--quoteo(post=1999382:date=Oct 28 2012, 09:52 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Oct 28 2012, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm also really disappointed that Eh is no longer a PT, we needed more like him and he's always come across to me as a calm reasonable person.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is something I'm really surprised about, too.
Before I'm off to bed, I've reconsidered adding a little bit of further information to my postings here:
We were also told inv.Gorgeous was listed as 'banned', but this withered in the face of the fact that .Inv more or less said if he was banned prior to the final, they weren't going to play. So the banning/unbanning of players, overturning of decisions, seems largely opinion based or simply 'We like or don't like said person'.
ALSO, a point I forgot to mention; If a player is to be penalized, that player should at a bare minimum be notified. Not eventually learning that "Oh, i was banned?" and having to hunt around for evidence or counter-evidence to the fact. No one even bothered to inform me I was "Banned" until I contacted Wasabi through Steam Friends an hour after the finals were said and done. I assumed it was a hoax and they were pulling my leg via the Gorgeous/Garfu/Eh 'Rofl hitreg' shenanigans.
Turns out they weren't.
Very sad.
Regarding the early GG, i honestly really didn't even notice that occured... we were all saying GG on microphones in TS3 and sighing... I wanted to give the thumbs up to .inv for having the better plays (And/or species) for the round, and had no idea that it was super-limited to specific people being able to speak.
Further, while the 'rules' are probably posted somewhere or obscure follow-ons from previous tournaments, I was never explicitly linked or explained any rules in any of the qualifiers, pre-round content, or anywhere from anyone on steam... I more or less was lead to believe it was just the typical "Don't be a ######" type of rules... no cheating, no rudeness, etc.
If you actually observe the streams from all the pre-qual matches and roundrobining, there is quite a lot of mid-game banter in the chats, ranging from lol hitreg comments to nice shot to 'good one' to blatent insults.
The fact that some people indiscriminately do this and never are penalized, while someone makes an arbitrary comment about the state of the final matches outcomes is listed as having been 'banned' is, yet again, completely absurd.
Then again, no real replies in here from anyone involved with the tournament, so perhaps It's all misconstrued or misunderstandings. I look forward to a legitimate, thought-out post with some addressing of the points in here from someone of official capacity. This is a serious issue and needs serious addressing and work.
im curious, how UWE will handle those accusations for me they need to excuse themselves and unban the guys from everything they got banned from ... i think, real greatness shows, when you can admit a failure and that there were made wrong decissions is obvious ... i must say, i'm a bit disappointed
If a decent conversation can be had, and if everything can be sorted out, that will be wonderful. I'm not putting all of this past near-release stress on UWE's part - understandably wanting everything to line up perfectly for the big day.
That wouldn't excuse the handling of this, but it would provide some much-needed context.
Wait why do you keep mentioning me? I'm completely unaware of any attempted banning. No one has said anything to me about anything I've said or done (which is nothing). eh was the 'rofl hitreg' and gorgeous was the blind stream talking thing, what did I do?
<!--quoteo(post=1999398:date=Oct 28 2012, 07:09 PM:name=Garfu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Garfu @ Oct 28 2012, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999398"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait why do you keep mentioning me? I'm completely unaware of any attempted banning. No one has said anything to me about anything I've said or done (which is nothing). eh was the 'rofl hitreg' and gorgeous was the blind stream talking thing, what did I do?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simply another name I kept hearing in conjunction with 'bans' and 'banned people'.
Could be utterly mistaken... I mean you no ill will, it's simply that since there is no published list of 'banned persons', or 'reasons why you are banned', or anything besides the hear-say of the steam network, it's near impossible to actually know who is and isn't.
In seriousness, it's disappointing that people like Dragon and Ryan are kicked off the play testers for no reason.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I sent that email explaining the situation above as it actually happened and his response was that I had no comprehension or understanding of why what I did was "unacceptable."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unprofessionalism was the theme of the tournament, the entirety of the official stream showcased it. Hugh and Wasabi were obviously enjoying themselves, at the cost of making a mockery of the entire event. If you're banning players for making comments that you feel undermine work done to promote NS2 in a competitive setting, maybe take a look at the official stream, it's what people see after all.
This is just very weird, I was watching the stream live and didn't see anything banworthy, I've seen FAR worse things said in other game tournaments during live streams. People obviously take competition seriously, can have outbursts and should be at least be given a warning before anything more drastic is done. I understand they're attempting to keep negative talk out of streams, especially before the game is launched but this isn't the way you should do it.
Loved the game but I really hope that UWE can learn from these complaints as it seems just seems so unprofessional.
<!--quoteo(post=1999363:date=Oct 29 2012, 05:35 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 29 2012, 05:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not only does it make no sense, but it means the PT team loses its last remaining participant with experience with top tier competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't make the cut? Sad to hear. I'll play more after 1.0 is out of the door.
Regarding the rest of the topic, while swinging the banhammer does try to convey the seriousness at which these tournaments & leagues are being led, I don't think such harsh procedures have community-wide desired effects.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>User was banned for this post.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow...
Seriously?
Going at the rate you are, you will alienate the entire competitive community. Good luck building it without us... You just lost the only competitive player in the Playtesting group as well..
I won't really comment until their is some sort of official feedback from the tourney organisers. I'm keen to understand the full story and justifications, atm we're only hearing 1 side of the story.
<!--quoteo(post=1999417:date=Oct 29 2012, 01:30 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Oct 29 2012, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regarding the rest of the topic, while swinging the banhammer does try to convey the seriousness at which these tournaments & leagues are being led, I don't think such harsh procedures have community-wide desired effects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You start banning members from each of the top teams and teams will just flat out refuse to play in UWE organised tourneys. People honestly don't really care about these little prizes, it just adds a bit of fun / novelty to the tourney.
... what will happen is you have a bunch of noob teams playing in the developer sponsored tourneys while the pro's run their own leagues/matches. Guess which one people will watch...
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>User was banned for this post.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow...
Seriously?
Going at the rate you are, you will alienate the entire competitive community. Good luck building it without us... You just lost the only competitive player in the Playtesting group as well..
I won't really comment until their is some sort of official feedback from the tourney organisers. I'm keen to understand the full story and justifications, atm we're only hearing 1 side of the story.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, he wasn't banned. Jekt is just being a troll. He will get a small warning though.
Going at the rate you are, you will alienate the entire competitive community. Good luck building it without us... You just lost the only competitive player in the Playtesting group as well..
I won't really comment until their is some sort of official feedback from the tourney organisers. I'm keen to understand the full story and justifications, atm we're only hearing 1 side of the story. No, he wasn't banned. Jekt is just being a troll. He will get a small warning though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, he wasn't banned. Jekt is just being a troll. He will get a small warning though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
This is in regard to the playtesters in question: If you have any questions as to the management of current PT's or questions regarding the disciplinary actions of the removed PT's you are free to message either Obraxis or myself, and we can give you the information as to why they were removed. UWE in no way manages the playtesting group.
Comments
This is like soccer where ever foul is a red card.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, basically. The problem here isn't really that there was a reaction -- a "captains only chat" rule is reasonable enough -- the problem is the severity of the reaction. Banning players and teams for minor infractions is grossly disproportionate and shoddy admining.
Honestly though, I'm even more shocked by eh getting kicked from PT because he made a few comments in the twitch stream chat -- comments which were entirely unrelated to anything he has done as PT. Not only does it make no sense, but it means the PT team loses its last remaining participant with experience with top tier competitive play.
Sure it was a really bad call from the players that lost their temper and typed something inappropriate but in such mild cases I doubt banning was really necessary. A fair warning would have been enough.
... provide an option for streamers to disable chat.
Every single ban or attempted ban in this launch tournament was a complete overreaction from the POV of every single competitive player I've spoken with. If what Colt said was ban worthy, then please either turn off your chat or close your eyes. It's getting absolutely ridiculous.
Not that Archaea <i>should </i>have had any disciplinary action taken against them, but if the Admins flip out over one lone comment, you'd think that would have made their heads explode. It's not just over the top, it's inconsistent.
... provide an option for streamers to disable chat.
Every single ban or attempted ban in this launch tournament was a complete overreaction from the POV of every single competitive player I've spoken with. If what Colt said was ban worthy, then please either turn off your chat or close your eyes. It's getting absolutely ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could argue that Colt's case was bad because he gg'ed before his team captain did, and that might screw up the other team etc etc.
But he also criticized the game, and both of eh?'s bans also came for criticizing the game, so it looks like that was the relevant factor.
We never complained that it was cheap, we tried to make a point of it being too strong. If you watch the games between the top teams in today's tournament, you'll notice that everyone researches mines first and spams them in base to avoid baserushes. May as well just have the marines start with free mines, since you're forced to research them first anyway...
I'd rather instant-research mines at present costs. Spend that starting res for defense, or try to horde it to boost your tech at your own risk.
Not saying I disagree that it's overly powerful, but it was a similar situation as far as statements go to yonder Onos Resilience.
Even if this is primarily about GG'ing before the team Captain, an insta-ban is still a bit much. An actual clarification on the precise purpose of the bans would be awful nice.
Even then, I think the guy's point still stands that you expressed something was too strong, and Colt here expressed that Onos were too strong. It's odd that the two situations were treated so differently.
BALANCE DEBATES ON MOTORCYCLES!
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Sorry, I'm done. Warn >> ban. :3<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
This is something I'm really surprised about, too.
We were also told inv.Gorgeous was listed as 'banned', but this withered in the face of the fact that .Inv more or less said if he was banned prior to the final, they weren't going to play. So the banning/unbanning of players, overturning of decisions, seems largely opinion based or simply 'We like or don't like said person'.
ALSO, a point I forgot to mention; If a player is to be penalized, that player should at a bare minimum be notified. Not eventually learning that "Oh, i was banned?" and having to hunt around for evidence or counter-evidence to the fact. No one even bothered to inform me I was "Banned" until I contacted Wasabi through Steam Friends an hour after the finals were said and done. I assumed it was a hoax and they were pulling my leg via the Gorgeous/Garfu/Eh 'Rofl hitreg' shenanigans.
Turns out they weren't.
Very sad.
Regarding the early GG, i honestly really didn't even notice that occured... we were all saying GG on microphones in TS3 and sighing... I wanted to give the thumbs up to .inv for having the better plays (And/or species) for the round, and had no idea that it was super-limited to specific people being able to speak.
Further, while the 'rules' are probably posted somewhere or obscure follow-ons from previous tournaments, I was never explicitly linked or explained any rules in any of the qualifiers, pre-round content, or anywhere from anyone on steam... I more or less was lead to believe it was just the typical "Don't be a ######" type of rules... no cheating, no rudeness, etc.
If you actually observe the streams from all the pre-qual matches and roundrobining, there is quite a lot of mid-game banter in the chats, ranging from lol hitreg comments to nice shot to 'good one' to blatent insults.
The fact that some people indiscriminately do this and never are penalized, while someone makes an arbitrary comment about the state of the final matches outcomes is listed as having been 'banned' is, yet again, completely absurd.
Then again, no real replies in here from anyone involved with the tournament, so perhaps It's all misconstrued or misunderstandings. I look forward to a legitimate, thought-out post with some addressing of the points in here from someone of official capacity. This is a serious issue and needs serious addressing and work.
-Colt
for me they need to excuse themselves and unban the guys from everything they got banned from
...
i think, real greatness shows, when you can admit a failure
and that there were made wrong decissions is obvious
...
i must say, i'm a bit disappointed
That wouldn't excuse the handling of this, but it would provide some much-needed context.
Simply another name I kept hearing in conjunction with 'bans' and 'banned people'.
Could be utterly mistaken... I mean you no ill will, it's simply that since there is no published list of 'banned persons', or 'reasons why you are banned', or anything besides the hear-say of the steam network, it's near impossible to actually know who is and isn't.
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->*snip* - Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
In seriousness, it's disappointing that people like Dragon and Ryan are kicked off the play testers for no reason.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I sent that email explaining the situation above as it actually happened and his response was that I had no comprehension or understanding of why what I did was "unacceptable."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unprofessionalism was the theme of the tournament, the entirety of the official stream showcased it. Hugh and Wasabi were obviously enjoying themselves, at the cost of making a mockery of the entire event. If you're banning players for making comments that you feel undermine work done to promote NS2 in a competitive setting, maybe take a look at the official stream, it's what people see after all.
Loved the game but I really hope that UWE can learn from these complaints as it seems just seems so unprofessional.
I don't make the cut? Sad to hear. I'll play more after 1.0 is out of the door.
Regarding the rest of the topic, while swinging the banhammer does try to convey the seriousness at which these tournaments & leagues are being led, I don't think such harsh procedures have community-wide desired effects.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>User was banned for this post.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow...
Seriously?
Going at the rate you are, you will alienate the entire competitive community. Good luck building it without us... You just lost the only competitive player in the Playtesting group as well..
I won't really comment until their is some sort of official feedback from the tourney organisers. I'm keen to understand the full story and justifications, atm we're only hearing 1 side of the story.
<!--quoteo(post=1999417:date=Oct 29 2012, 01:30 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Oct 29 2012, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regarding the rest of the topic, while swinging the banhammer does try to convey the seriousness at which these tournaments & leagues are being led, I don't think such harsh procedures have community-wide desired effects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You start banning members from each of the top teams and teams will just flat out refuse to play in UWE organised tourneys. People honestly don't really care about these little prizes, it just adds a bit of fun / novelty to the tourney.
... what will happen is you have a bunch of noob teams playing in the developer sponsored tourneys while the pro's run their own leagues/matches. Guess which one people will watch...
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>User was banned for this post.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow...
Seriously?
Going at the rate you are, you will alienate the entire competitive community. Good luck building it without us... You just lost the only competitive player in the Playtesting group as well..
I won't really comment until their is some sort of official feedback from the tourney organisers. I'm keen to understand the full story and justifications, atm we're only hearing 1 side of the story.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, he wasn't banned. Jekt is just being a troll. He will get a small warning though.
Seriously?
Going at the rate you are, you will alienate the entire competitive community. Good luck building it without us... You just lost the only competitive player in the Playtesting group as well..
I won't really comment until their is some sort of official feedback from the tourney organisers. I'm keen to understand the full story and justifications, atm we're only hearing 1 side of the story.
No, he wasn't banned. Jekt is just being a troll. He will get a small warning though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AHAH okay, np thanks Mouse
hehe, <3!