Theory now Reality (Aliens vs Marines)
Flatlander
Join Date: 2012-09-16 Member: 159575Members
Join Date: 2012-09-16 Member: 159575Members
Hi Guys!
I have been trolling the forums for awhile but I did not have access to the beta.
I saw plenty of "Buff Aliens" threads and thought to myself, "This is the typical unskilled noobs that always complain when they lose and want the game to be made easier in their favor". But after seeing the damage, fire rate, clip size, and reload time of marine weapons I began to think that maybe ANY melee class would have huge problems. (I asked players on the forums for this information to get an idea of what to expect)
After playing yesterday I won't say it is terribly unbalanced in pub play. I had nearly 50/50 win rate and played aliens all night.
I know I am new and over time my skill will increase a thousand times over, and I had plenty of times where I solo jumped into 3 marines and got all 3 kills (I assume these kids were just bad though).
There was one person in my game with the simple name of "Sir" (He killed me like a gentleman). Any time I was on his screen I was almost instantly dead. Like most FPS, gun-fights were quick. (Who has better aim and faster trigger finger wins). Though in this situation, if I was ever unlucky enough to allow him to become aware of my existence I was almost always dead, AND even if I was able to dodge a full clip of fire he would switch to his pistol (which to me, seems more powerful than the default weapon) and I would die within a quarter of a second.
I know he wasn't cheating, this is how First Person Shooters are, when you get to the top of the game, engagements last about 1 second. Turn corner, first person to pull the trigger wins because they both have near-perfect accuracy.
But now I'm a melee only class, and even if I do get the drop on him from behind, it takes me a hilariously long time to complete my kill. I can't head-shot my bite to 1 hit him, and there is no way I can do all 3-4 bites before he is aware I am chewing on his face and turns to react. And when he does turn to react all he has to do is jump away in 1 direction, since he is nearly the same speed as me all I can do is follow or run, if I follow, I am forced into running in a strait line to keep up, easy kill. If I run, well he isn't terrible at the game and knows how to put a cross-hair on a target, I'm dead.
The "Leap" doesn't seem to do much damage either, I thought maybe I could do a really quick Leap-Bite and basically 1-2 hit a marine from behind. Nope this doesn't work either.
It would be very difficult to head-shot even if it was in the game (plus it would be easier for a marine to head-shot an alien than an alien head-shot a marine)
<b>My proposal - Aliens should do increased damage from behind. If an alien is hitting the rear of any marine unit they should take increased damage. Enough to make it 2 bites to kill with no armor upgrades and 3 with armor AT LEAST.</b>
This would at least make it so skilled alien players can end their kills quickly and head for the next target.
I have been trolling the forums for awhile but I did not have access to the beta.
I saw plenty of "Buff Aliens" threads and thought to myself, "This is the typical unskilled noobs that always complain when they lose and want the game to be made easier in their favor". But after seeing the damage, fire rate, clip size, and reload time of marine weapons I began to think that maybe ANY melee class would have huge problems. (I asked players on the forums for this information to get an idea of what to expect)
After playing yesterday I won't say it is terribly unbalanced in pub play. I had nearly 50/50 win rate and played aliens all night.
I know I am new and over time my skill will increase a thousand times over, and I had plenty of times where I solo jumped into 3 marines and got all 3 kills (I assume these kids were just bad though).
There was one person in my game with the simple name of "Sir" (He killed me like a gentleman). Any time I was on his screen I was almost instantly dead. Like most FPS, gun-fights were quick. (Who has better aim and faster trigger finger wins). Though in this situation, if I was ever unlucky enough to allow him to become aware of my existence I was almost always dead, AND even if I was able to dodge a full clip of fire he would switch to his pistol (which to me, seems more powerful than the default weapon) and I would die within a quarter of a second.
I know he wasn't cheating, this is how First Person Shooters are, when you get to the top of the game, engagements last about 1 second. Turn corner, first person to pull the trigger wins because they both have near-perfect accuracy.
But now I'm a melee only class, and even if I do get the drop on him from behind, it takes me a hilariously long time to complete my kill. I can't head-shot my bite to 1 hit him, and there is no way I can do all 3-4 bites before he is aware I am chewing on his face and turns to react. And when he does turn to react all he has to do is jump away in 1 direction, since he is nearly the same speed as me all I can do is follow or run, if I follow, I am forced into running in a strait line to keep up, easy kill. If I run, well he isn't terrible at the game and knows how to put a cross-hair on a target, I'm dead.
The "Leap" doesn't seem to do much damage either, I thought maybe I could do a really quick Leap-Bite and basically 1-2 hit a marine from behind. Nope this doesn't work either.
It would be very difficult to head-shot even if it was in the game (plus it would be easier for a marine to head-shot an alien than an alien head-shot a marine)
<b>My proposal - Aliens should do increased damage from behind. If an alien is hitting the rear of any marine unit they should take increased damage. Enough to make it 2 bites to kill with no armor upgrades and 3 with armor AT LEAST.</b>
This would at least make it so skilled alien players can end their kills quickly and head for the next target.
Comments
The problem of balance isn't as black and white as most games due to the RTS side of things. To me the aliens seem like the most powerful early game at the moment, but marines seem to be the stronger of the two late game once they get level 3 armour and weapons.
Fyi level 0 armour is two bites and one hit from a parasite. Level 3 armour, <i>if</i> I recall correctly, is 5 bites.
Someone mentioned something about the skulks bite having a fair bit of range to it, but with the complete lack of feedback for the skulk (at least I have no crosshair and no way to know how much range it is), it seems designed to be heinously difficult for new players.
I'm sure there are ways to improve on my end, it's just that, from my perspective, I seem to be doing things correctly then ending up dead anyways. Not sure what else I need to do.
I was told about the parasite/2 bite combo, but of course this would be 2 perfectly aimed bites.
I can tell that Bite does have some range on it.
My point is this, any marine can kill a skulk in less than a second with any marine weapon.
NO alien (even an Onos in my experience) can kill a marine in less then a second.
And aliens have to melee?
Things to note about playing skulks:
-Try and make accurate bites. There are 3 hit cones with the most difficult having 100% dmg, the second 66% dmg and the last 33% dmg. This means 75/50/25 dmg per bite.
-An unupgraded marine takes just 2 full 75 dmg bites and 10 damage from anywhere, say, parasite. If a marine doesn't have any armour left, he will go down even quicker.
-When you jump down from a height, you gain speed. You will lose speed when you stay on the ground, but if you time the next jump just right and don't spend time on the floor, you get to keep that speed. You do have to go back to the walls again every once in a while though.
-You might want to have a slightly higher sensitivity for aliens. This can be done via mouse or bindings, like typing in console 'bind PageUp "setsensitivity 1.0"' and 'bind PageDown "setsensitivity 1.15"'
-Do not go straight along the floor or directly to the marines. Ground rocket skulks are cannon fodder. Use sideways movement and altitude changes to make the marines work much harder. That way he spends more ammo and you close in on a marine with an empty magazine.
-Try and use more teamwork. It doesn't come to the aliens as naturally but it is very necessary! Marines basically auto-teamwork compared to aliens due to phase gates and the ranged attackers ability to more easily support each other (by shooting at the teammates feet!). Aliens need to have a bit more teamwork. In competitive teams going in solo as a skulk is one of the worst things to do, and usually teams will group up and then say "go go go" and all go in as a group. Hard to pull off on publics, but a bit necessary.
This means anyone who who good at a game like counter-strike is going to rape, and would seem like an aimbot, but this is only because the marine firing system is so simplistic and requires you to do nothing more than look at the target and press M1.
Things you can do to counter this problem is use the walls/cieling to your advantage. When playing a skulk you can bounce yourself off walls (just run into a wall, press jump, look away) to gain a massive speed boost.
Leap can also be used to project you across the room for easy closing the gap, it does not however do damage so keep that in mind.
Skulks also have ramped damage based on accuracy, this means the more accurate you are, the more damage you do. If you hit them twice in a row, you would do more damage than if you hit them once, missed, then hit them again.
On my final 2 cents, You are correct no alien can 1 shot marines or kill nearly as fast as the LMG. Aliens do however posses incredibly powerful beings that can be evolved into with no research. Fades for example, when used correctly, can be one of the most devistating player on the battlefield. Lerks as well who can fly and gas entire rooms, not only blinding the marines but choking them to death as well.
Trust me, its more balanced than you think. Aliens do not need a damage boost, people just need to learn to play them. You are all new, dont expect to know how to play them correctly just yet
Misconception and only half true.
While the lifeforms do not require research by the commander to unlock them, you just listed abilities that are required by the alien commander to unlock.
Spores requires 2nd hive and spore research. Also, sorry, but fades without blink is a waste of 50 p.res. So theoretically, fades are hive cost+blink research cost as a sort of "lifeform research".
And I disagree on aliens possessing "incredibly powerful" beings. Fades are just skulks with more hp. Lerks are skulks with wings, but less overall damage. Gorge is gorge. Onos I can only consider being incredibly powerful, but that's because lack of scaling and having to balance them as a late game lifeform. And guess what, Fades still take 4-5 swipes to kill an a3 marine while it only takes two shotgun shells to kill a fade. Incredibly powerful my foot.
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OP wise: I'm not surprised that people are realizing how poor the state alien gameplay and how badly they were designed/developed. I'm actually surprised at how quick people are realizing it considering both sides contain lots of new players (hence your 50-50 win rate). I was going to give it a month after release once everyone understands how the game plays, gets better as marines, then starts starts rolling over aliens while stacking marines.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Trust me, its more balanced than you think. Aliens do not need a damage boost, people just need to learn to play them. You are all new, dont expect to know how to play them correctly just yet<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess that's why long time beta players and "competitive" players were resorting to quick onos drop tactics to win as aliens because the game balance is so amazing as aliens. That's a laugh.
This is true if you do not know how to play the class. But i have seen people do incredible work with just shadow step, including myself.
<!--quoteo(post=2002683:date=Oct 31 2012, 10:53 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Oct 31 2012, 10:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2002683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades are just skulks with more hp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol, no. Just no. Skulks do not go on 50-1 killing sprees
<!--quoteo(post=2002683:date=Oct 31 2012, 10:53 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Oct 31 2012, 10:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2002683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess that's why long time beta players and "competitive" players were resorting to quick onos drop tactics to win as aliens because the game balance is so amazing as aliens. That's a laugh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wtf are you talking about?
Amazing! So can I. Doesn't mean its a its a smart move against players who know how to aim a shotgun.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol, no. Just no. Skulks do not go on 50-1 killing sprees<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have actually. But pub stomping is another thing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wtf are you talking about?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your stupid statement about "learning to play". As if only aliens improve by learning to play and marines players wont. As both teams improve, the (balance) disparity between teams become more apparently.
They do that because it is almost a garunteed win, not because of an imbalance in favor in favor of the marines.
Or because as the game progresses, marines tech and scaling out performs that of aliens.
Aliens require fast wins, since games that drag on too long ends up becoming a huge struggle and usually ends up being a loss unless Marines have their thumbs up their butts.
Stage 1, the early game: Aliens desperately try to defend their RTs and second hive, if they are good they pick off marine RTs and manage to hold 4rts, usually only 3 though.
Stage 2, the early-midgame: Aliens get leap and some upgrades and can now start to defend their RTs more effectively, maybe get up to 4rts.
Stage 3, the midgame: Aliens get a few higher lifeforms, marines get 2-2 or 3-3. Typically the game is decided here by the lifespan of the fades and lerks, if they all die rapidly then the aliens lose.
Stage 4, lategame: Marines get jetpacks and exos, if the aliens havn't been able to retain enough higher lifeforms they instantly lose, if they have been able to do so then they have a reasonable chance.
While in theory this progression is fine, in actual fact fades and lerks are too flimsy against shotguns, in pubs they die basically always. This is imo the biggest problem with the metagame, and its caused by OP shotguns or weak fades and lerks, your choice.
This would at least make it so skilled alien players can end their kills quickly and head for the next target.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Brilliant! This would also discourage aliens from frontal assaults... which n00bs tend to try to do... run straight line at marines down a long hallway, one at a time.
Maybe it's a design decision to make it somewhat weak to balance other things in the game (fades amount or whatever) and keep the winrate close to 50%.
Balance goals across skill level, tech progression and player count are other things we don't know much about.
I was not saying learn to play in an insulting way, only that you need to practice to be truly effective, especially as alien.
Compared to marines, the aliens have a much MUCH steeper learning curve. As i said before marines are literally point and click, it uses the most basic first person shooter skill possible. Most people are already good enough at marines right out the gate because they pick up the skills in other games. The only thing that really needs to be learned as a marine is the voice commands and not to back peddle.
tho fade could use some more health and some other stuff, overall it's balanced
Importantly, don't theory craft based on Skulk is down hallway has to run to perfect aim Marine. Because SKulks always lose that one.
Theory craft on Skulks attacking from behind, being more mobile on the map and winning objectives, that once a Skulk is close it is extremely hard for most Marines to track your movements, and so on. You are a predator as the Aliens, hunting and ambushing the Marines. Use the geometry of the maps and your mobility to get in close and crush them.
One team has ranged weapons, more health, better armor, and more DPS (damage).
Marines
The other team has melee weapons, less health, less armor, less DPS (damage) plus the ability to move fast and in unpredictable ways.
So basically we are saying, we will give 1 team a HUGE advantage in every way, but the other team will be faster and mobile.
imagine if Starcraft 2 was only balanced for the best of the best.
There is something wrong with game balance, when new players can go in a own as marines, but you should read these 100 page on tips and stuff before playing alien and being mediocre at it.
marines it just aim and pull the trigger, no recoil. and jump around like a madman helps ofcourse.
Like it or not the aliens are gonna get buffed heavily in the coming weeks, and Marines are getting nerfed. There has to be a balance for public and then for Pro's.
Also how is a new player going to learn being a commander?, sitting around watching youtube videos and reading about it does not pro player make. Its the same problem in battlefield 3, dont you dare flying a ###### air craft if youre not a expert. then tell me, how are new player supposed to become good at flying the ###### things if nobody wants noobs to fly them. Its a paradox.
There is a reason in the realworld that employers value new job candidates that has real life experience, because you cannot read or watch something to be come good at it, you have to actually go to it. be it job, game whatever.
When you start looking at how unforgivning and all the advantages marines have, its a bit absurd, not to mention marines can come back and win the game even when its 1 base to 4 wtf?. aliens loose even when its 2 base to 3. and forgot about doing anything with 1 base. These are all serious issues.
But again, im expecting the devs to show the new win % here after about 7 days or so, im predicting based on my feeling, about 70-75% marine win rate, and 25-30% alien win rate or so.
that also bring up another problem, please add a mode to the servers, so that when a round is over marines get moved to aliens and such. Ive seen so many servers become empty because aliens loose horrible i might add, they wanna play marines, and the marines wanna play marines, they dont wanna be alien where they canno have 50-5 K/D ratio, then people leave and voila server empty or very few players remaining.
I think its fair to say that when Aliens have played a round they deserve the option to play marines, then marine player can take the sucky job of playing aliens. i mean thats the least they can do right?.
Grenade launcher, can we please have a reload between each shot, instead of marines being able to spam the hell out of that thing, requires absolutely no skill at all. It makes so sense, but if they had to reload between each shot, then suddenly it takes skill and its a situation weapon as it should be. Grenade launcher should not be a primary kill all spam weapon. People keep talking about not fighting in the open and fighting in tight spaces. well trying fight a bunch of marines in tight spaces or even open spaces with GGlauncher. Point N click and stuff dies.
For instance, I've learned three things from this thread already
1. Skulk bites have 3 cones of damage, based on accuracy. Nowhere is that indicated, and I had no way of knowing what these cones are, or even that improving accuracy improved damage as a skulk.
2. The way for skulks to close the distance easiest was with what sounds like a form of bunny hopping, involving walls and ceilings. This isn't even counter intuitive so much as it is hidden, as normal bunny hopping doesn't seem to offer much effect, so why would I assume this does?
3. Taking the third skulk bite to kill a base marine is a actually a bad idea, as he is so close to dead you can easily finish him off with a weaker but faster damage method such as a parasite. As a new player, parasites looked mainly like a way of harassing and marking enemies, not an actual weapon.
Even those three will make a huge difference, yet I had to come to the forums to find it out. Yes, to some degree Marines will be more intuitive,a s the resemble other shooters, but I've seen far to many people use that excuse to hand wave away obvious game design problems, not in balance, but in simply making aliens easier to learn to play. If I bite for less damage, why do I not get a visual indicator, less noise, or something to indicate it was less effective. For that matter, why do I lack any sort of crosshair/aiming device in the first place? Why rely on some odd complicated version of bunnyhopping, rather than just instituting the normal form most players are familiar with, or even letting the normal version work, albeit not as well as the ideal version they had in mind? Why do I not get an indicator of when a marine is very close to death, so i might think "oh, maybe my really weak ranged weapon could finish him off and I do not need a third bite"? A number of solutions present themselves to these basic problems, so such misconceptions would not occur. It almost feels like they tried to make it as inaccessible as possible.
It isn't just less accessible due to unavoidable problems, the team obviously didn't devote enough time to thinking about these issue, making the entire experience far worse for a new player than it should be. If I have to come to the forums to learn the basics of playing the most basic class on the aliens side, there are issues. Lord knows what it'll be like trying to master fades or onos.
One team has ranged weapons, more health, better armor, and more DPS (damage).
Marines
The other team has melee weapons, less health, less armor, less DPS (damage) plus the ability to move fast and in unpredictable ways.
So basically we are saying, we will give 1 team a HUGE advantage in every way, but the other team will be faster and mobile.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Theorycraft it whichever way you like, I'm telling you it works in practice. Marines are quite easy to kill when you work with teammates and aim your bites carefully. Aliens win plenty of games both in pubs and competitive play.
All I know is this, In competitive FPS gameplay you have squads of 2-3 usually covering each other moving across the map. I can only imagine how well this would work on this game. We shall see :).
Though I could see a group of Fades being near invincible as well. Blinking in, quickly slaughtering a marine or two, then blinking away to heal.
imagine if Starcraft 2 was only balanced for the best of the best.
There is something wrong with game balance, when new players can go in a own as marines, but you should read these 100 page on tips and stuff before playing alien and being mediocre at it.
marines it just aim and pull the trigger, no recoil. and jump around like a madman helps ofcourse.
Like it or not the aliens are gonna get buffed heavily in the coming weeks, and Marines are getting nerfed. There has to be a balance for public and then for Pro's.
Also how is a new player going to learn being a commander?, sitting around watching youtube videos and reading about it does not pro player make. Its the same problem in battlefield 3, dont you dare flying a ###### air craft if youre not a expert. then tell me, how are new player supposed to become good at flying the ###### things if nobody wants noobs to fly them. Its a paradox.
There is a reason in the realworld that employers value new job candidates that has real life experience, because you cannot read or watch something to be come good at it, you have to actually go to it. be it job, game whatever.
When you start looking at how unforgivning and all the advantages marines have, its a bit absurd, not to mention marines can come back and win the game even when its 1 base to 4 wtf?. aliens loose even when its 2 base to 3. and forgot about doing anything with 1 base. These are all serious issues.
But again, im expecting the devs to show the new win % here after about 7 days or so, im predicting based on my feeling, about 70-75% marine win rate, and 25-30% alien win rate or so.
that also bring up another problem, please add a mode to the servers, so that when a round is over marines get moved to aliens and such. Ive seen so many servers become empty because aliens loose horrible i might add, they wanna play marines, and the marines wanna play marines, they dont wanna be alien where they canno have 50-5 K/D ratio, then people leave and voila server empty or very few players remaining.
I think its fair to say that when Aliens have played a round they deserve the option to play marines, then marine player can take the sucky job of playing aliens. i mean thats the least they can do right?.
Grenade launcher, can we please have a reload between each shot, instead of marines being able to spam the hell out of that thing, requires absolutely no skill at all. It makes so sense, but if they had to reload between each shot, then suddenly it takes skill and its a situation weapon as it should be. Grenade launcher should not be a primary kill all spam weapon. People keep talking about not fighting in the open and fighting in tight spaces. well trying fight a bunch of marines in tight spaces or even open spaces with GGlauncher. Point N click and stuff dies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really don't think that UWE is going to make much of a change to the balance because of pub play. My experience over the last 12 hours or so of playing since release is that the w/l ratio is not that far off from 50/50. Yes I have seen marines own aliens but I have also seen just as much alien owning marines. It really just comes down to team work and communication.
Like you were saying about the gl. It only has a 4 round clip and even at lvl 3 wpns that wont kill a hive right out the key to the gl is the fact that it is supported and in the back. This is where the skulks and fades come in because they can cut right through to the back lines by going quickly around them and getting them from behind (either through another path or by just blinking/leaping over the front line. Not to mention the fact that a gl takes foreverrrrr to reload. If there is just one gl you just wait for 4 explosions then rush he will be dead by the time he is done reloading. If there are more than one gl well you are either losing or have onos that can really soak up the damage while the lower life forms follow and kill.
Close to balance doesn't equal fun.
3 out of the 5 lifeforms becoming irrelevant and useless 10 minutes into the game vs decent marines is poor game design and leads to boring play.
The only time aliens win vs full teched marines even with 3 hives and all upgrades is when they spam onos.
That is boring.
3 out of the 5 lifeforms becoming irrelevant and useless 10 minutes into the game vs decent marines is poor game design and leads to boring play.
The only time aliens win vs full teched marines even with 3 hives and all upgrades is when they spam onos.
That is boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am interested in what lifeforms you think are useless? They all have a place in late game I am guessing 1 is skulk they should be taking out rts and supporting the higher lifeforms to get kills. Skulks run in with onos or fade and the marines mostly ignore them and go for the higher life form giving them a chance to do some real damage before they are noticed. The lerk is super important late game with its spores and umbra it can make or break a base rush for the aliens not to mention keep the marines locked up in base trying to kill it because it is slowly killing them all with spores. The last one I don't know what you are talking about gorge (super important to keep higher life forms at the front line and bile bomb just kills the s##t out of structures.) or the fade (that should be blinking in and out of combat taking 1-3 swipes late game before falling back and healing any damage then just repeating this is way more damaging than it sounds because it puts the marines on the defensive so they are not out taking res and tech points.)