Dual Exo needs some nerf-age: Buff Bile Bomb!
SteelRodent
Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165396Members
Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165396Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Because you all know its true.</div>First things first; holy hell, I have never played a day-one game that handled so smoothly. The controls are superb, wall-running is actually fluid and intuitive (sweet jesus), and its generally a lot of fun to play.
That said, dual-minigun exos ruin everything.
All the Marines really need is one exo with maybe 3 MACs (the little cute flying repair bots) and maybe 2 marines with welders; nothing the Kharaa have can touch it.
The ordinary exo is balanced: the single minigun overheats if you try and spray a horde of angry skulks with it. Dual exos dont have that problem, because 2 miniguns melt anything long before they even get close.
I've seen a dual exo getting flat-out rammed by no less then 2 Onos, but because he was backed up by 2 MACs and 2 marines with welders he was healing faster than they could hurt him.
And god help you if you dont have any Onos, because thats the only alien that can even dent it.
My idea is a simple one; buff the Gorge's Bile Bomb so that it partially blinds+slows exo suits. The description states that it eats into armour and structures, so why cant it eat through the front armour and start damaging the view screen on the exo? Maybe have some sparks flying everywhere inside the cockpit, and static all over the screen.
The point is not to destroy the exo with nerfs (an un-escorted non-dual exo is easy meat do a pack of Skulks) but give the Kharaa a direct counter to the oh-so-annoying Exo Convoy, because right now they just dont have one.
Also, it wouldnt hurt if it cost more than the regular exo either.
That said, dual-minigun exos ruin everything.
All the Marines really need is one exo with maybe 3 MACs (the little cute flying repair bots) and maybe 2 marines with welders; nothing the Kharaa have can touch it.
The ordinary exo is balanced: the single minigun overheats if you try and spray a horde of angry skulks with it. Dual exos dont have that problem, because 2 miniguns melt anything long before they even get close.
I've seen a dual exo getting flat-out rammed by no less then 2 Onos, but because he was backed up by 2 MACs and 2 marines with welders he was healing faster than they could hurt him.
And god help you if you dont have any Onos, because thats the only alien that can even dent it.
My idea is a simple one; buff the Gorge's Bile Bomb so that it partially blinds+slows exo suits. The description states that it eats into armour and structures, so why cant it eat through the front armour and start damaging the view screen on the exo? Maybe have some sparks flying everywhere inside the cockpit, and static all over the screen.
The point is not to destroy the exo with nerfs (an un-escorted non-dual exo is easy meat do a pack of Skulks) but give the Kharaa a direct counter to the oh-so-annoying Exo Convoy, because right now they just dont have one.
Also, it wouldnt hurt if it cost more than the regular exo either.
Comments
Nice...
I'd tend to agree; the Marine team is much stronger from the turtling front; a unified defense long enough to field multiple Exos is what I've been seeing from a vast majority of games since release, with a significantly higher number of Marine victories.
I understand that the Kharaa side is meant to be sneaky rather than dealing in outright confrontation, but with the significantly higher scaling end-game of the Marines, I've been watching as the Marines lock down a tech node (or two) and two res points, allow the Kharaa to have the run of the map otherwise, and just rush armor/weapons 3 with a large number of IPs, allowing them to simply 'zerg' base defense.
In addition, pausing every little while to rebuild a forward phase gate allows a nearly never-ending stream of throwaway Marines with welders (or to just grab the dropped ones). This is especially noticeable as the Marines simply throw away their lives and allow the teammates to pick up dropped higher-tier weaponry as well, while losing even a single higher-evolution lifeform is a serious blow to the Kharaa, and completely irreplaceable.
The old adage was that a Marine versus a Skulk at close range, even at endgame with both teched-up, the Marine would lose. From what I'm seeing at this point, it's fairly equal footing with the crack-bouncing, added melee viability, and frank over-effectiveness of the armor upgrades.
Bile bomb already partially blinds exos and is already pretty damn powerful.
What you need to counter a smooth exo escort criminal isn't a balance tweak, it's teamplay.
Have skulks and fades kill off the marines, use one onos or a few extra skulks to focus down the exo, bile bomb like crazy from afar.
It will tear down that exo in seconds, it's ridiculous.
You kind of spelled it out yourself, the exo was supported by macs and marines with welders and assorted weapons.
That's basically nice teamplay, if you don't up your teamplay to <i>at least</i> the same level, you should and will lose.
However, I think you're approaching the problem the wrong way as well.
The exo has a very severe weakness in NS2. A weakness that no unit in NS1 had. The Exo is a lot like the siege tank in star craft. In starcraft, nothing can destroy a strong siege tank line if all the tanks are in the same place. Consequently, if your opponent gathers up all his tanks in one area, there is really only one strategy you can follow, destroy something somewhere where the tanks are not!
Exo has exactly the same mechanic in NS2. It cannot teleport through phase gates. It basically "spawns" wherever the prototype lab is, and it must walk, as the slowest unit in the entire game of NS2 to wherever it needs to be to do damage. Consequently, if you are attacking with an exo, you are devoting signifigant resources in time and effort simply making the position where that exo currently is very strong. If you are not attacking with the exo, you are defending with the exo. Now the problem in NS2 is, Marines need 2 bases at any given time, and many resource locations. You cannot be defending both bases, defending a good number of res nodes, and attacking important alien locations all at the same time with a team of exos. So if the marines choose to send exos into one of your hives, make them pay by destroying one of their tech points in turn, and then reexpand to the new tech point. You can't trade cost effectively by actually fighting their army, so trade cost effectively somewhere else.
If the marines go exos and it results in them losing all their on map resources, you don't really need to cost effectively win the battle against the exos, you only need to keep whittling them down over several battles and you'll eventually destroy them at great expense. The trick is to make up the lost cost elsewhere on the map.
At the end of the day, aliens need to be proactive in the mid game as well. The mid game is where kharra have a real advantage. If the Marine team has held 5 or more res nodes for more than 20 minutes, they have probably won. Aliens need to do a better job of keeping res nodes and power cores down.
Ever played StarCraft?
There is a dead-beat counter for MACs, you just don't seem to consider it worth playing.
Distracting the marines and drawing the fire is the job of your Onos/Fade/Skulk while the Lerk crop dusts every weldermarine within seconds and the gorge makes short work of ANY number of MACs. Doesn't matter if there is 1 MAC or 10 MACS - his bile bomb also blinds the Exos.
But this requires TEAMWORK. You know - this icky thing where you have to communicate with your mates to achieve your goal.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And god help you if you dont have any Onos, because thats the only alien that can even dent it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Newsflash: There is more than 1 alien life form - and with good reason.
Yesterday an Ego-Suit, I meant Exo thought one could simply walk into Mordor alone - we took him down with just 2 skulks who happened to spawn nearby.
Similarly an Onos is just wasted meat if not supported by suitable teammates.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen a dual exo getting flat-out rammed by no less then 2 Onos, but because he was backed up by 2 MACs and 2 marines with welders he was healing faster than they could hurt him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's see... all you can muster are 2 measly aliens, while the marines are COOPERATING and TEAMWORKING on a completely higher level:
In your example I'm counting 4 marines (comm + 2 marines + exo) moving as one force, attacking together, covering each other, welding each other and - therefore - WINNING.
In my opinion unsocial, uncooperative, mute, deaf and selfish players fully deserve every failure they achieve by their behaviour.*
* Edit:
Lots of rookies complain about the "vertical" learning curve of NS2 and that the enemies' XYZ is too overpowered and their choice of life form/weapon needs buffs asap.
Interestingly it's the same rookies who can't be bothered to follow a single order by the comm/suggestion by a teammate or use their headsets to ask more experienced players in order to learn and master the game... that's what I mean by "deaf & mute"... playing a cooperative team game like a single player game.
POSITIVE:(4)
-infinite ammo;
-high damage;
-in-mounted track system;
-Not affected by gas;
NEGATIVE:(19)
-Cant build;
-Cant weld;
-Slow moving;
-Cant jump;
-The cockpit view and the gun smoke makes it difficult to see ###### in front of you;
-VERY innacurate;
-Less versatile in weaponry (can only have a fist and miniguns, while marines cant have wide variety of Primary, a secondary, a melee, welder and mines, Jetpacks);
-Cant use Phase gates (thus even more slow..);
-Cant use armory to heal, THUS (and this is very bad) needs someone with welder or a MAC (which often arent there any in game);
-Cant pick-up medpacks;
-Loud noise;
-VERY HIGH PRICE;
-High research time;
-Cant crouch;
-Its big size equals more hitbox;
-Cant be dropped by the user;
-Low health (this should really be fixed.... its a friggin armor, why does it need to be low health?);
-Cant use Command Chair (While the counterpart Onos can use the hive...)
-Bile bombs F*** it up well;
Seriously...... think before making topics
I only buy one with my res because it looks badass.... for 50 res, id rather buy mines and a jetpack.
You deem every point equal.
Considering game balance they are NOT.
What your list provides is - at best - a description.
Holding the jump key pressed will see the exo rise with small thrusters. It can therefore "climb" obstacles, though it it of course isn't as powerful as the jumping of the bunny marines.
Single exo needs a buff. . . right now you can't punch a cyst <i>(range isn't long enough)</i>
Both exo's probably need a small <i>(possibly 15%)</i> movement speed increase
Having no way to exit your exo also seems unrealistic and overly punishing on the balance end
I think if marines got a pistol + welder when leaving, but could only jump out and back in an exo that has above 60% health
<i>(immitating body damage jamming the hatch)</i>
Ummanned exos on the ground could receive double damage and be disabled from use if attacked for a short time
Sure the MAC repair stack is a problem, but the Onos is just as deadly having a Gorge or 2 heal spraying it while they blind and damage marine armour.
Also, you're missing the point. Read Talesin's response, admit the fact that Marines are more zergy than the zerg-like aliens, and acknowledge one simple fact:
Your entire strategy is flawed because the marines are infinitely replaceable, whereas the Kharaa are not. Those oh-so-neat upgrades and classes that I clearly havent noticed because I'm obviously a "unsocial, uncooperative, mute, deaf and selfish player" dont count for crap if your initial assault on the exo force fails. There go all those hard-earned resources, and the Exo just killed the hive you were defending so no more upgrades.
You can't "go somewhere else" because you can't afford to lose the hive, and as you say, teamwork is required to kill an exo group. If half the team scatters off around the map killing power nodes, that exo is going to happily stomp all over the map, killing off your hives.
But wait, that force that went off to kill power nodes? They cant do crap either, because THEY DONT HAVE ANY UPGRADES. They'll get so far, run into the fortified bases around the 2 spots on the map the Marines need, wipe on the sentries, and respawn just in time to get stepped on by the Exo, which by this point probably has a friend or two.
Also, I'd recommend you take that holier-than-thou attitude and stick it somewhere, it isnt helping anyone.
I know that, and that is not called jumping
However, once I tell them to strafe the exos as skulks and bite the feet, 3-4 skulks clean out the exos while the gorge biles for visibility blockage and damage.
If you allow 3-4 dual exos with support, then it needs to be end game.
You deem every point equal.
Considering game balance they are NOT.
What your list provides is - at best - a description.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course they are not all equal. but exos being low health/easily destroyed(capped in forms of regaining health, slow, horrible in terms of versatiliy and awful accuracy is a straight downgrade from a default marine that costs nothing, or even a JP marine that costs less....
But in my oppinion, of course it has to have downsides, but atleast increase their durability... its the best armor, ffs, should act like one....
POSITIVE:(4)
-infinite ammo;
-high damage;
-in-mounted track system;
-Not affected by gas;
NEGATIVE:(19)
-Cant build;
-Cant weld;
-Slow moving;
-Cant jump;
-The cockpit view and the gun smoke makes it difficult to see ###### in front of you;
-VERY innacurate;
-Less versatile in weaponry (can only have a fist and miniguns, while marines cant have wide variety of Primary, a secondary, a melee, welder and mines, Jetpacks);
-Cant use Phase gates (thus even more slow..);
-Cant use armory to heal, THUS (and this is very bad) needs someone with welder or a MAC (which often arent there any in game);
-Cant pick-up medpacks;
-Loud noise;
-VERY HIGH PRICE;
-High research time;
-Cant crouch;
-Its big size equals more hitbox;
-Cant be dropped by the user;
-Low health (this should really be fixed.... its a friggin armor, why does it need to be low health?);
-Cant use Command Chair (While the counterpart Onos can use the hive...)
-Bile bombs F*** it up well;
Seriously...... think before making topics
I only buy one with my res because it looks badass.... for 50 res, id rather buy mines and a jetpack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, you know what else the Exo can't do?
-Can't make toast
-Can't one-shot an Onos
-Doesnt get built-in wifi
-Cant launch a homing missile that finds a nearby hive and insta-kills it.
-Cant do The Robot
-Isnt free
Seriously, its SO underpowered. Needs buff naow.
Also, you're missing the point. Read Talesin's response, admit the fact that Marines are more zergy than the zerg-like aliens, and acknowledge one simple fact:
Your entire strategy is flawed because the marines are infinitely replaceable, whereas the Kharaa are not. Those oh-so-neat upgrades and classes that I clearly havent noticed because I'm obviously a "unsocial, uncooperative, mute, deaf and selfish player" dont count for crap if your initial assault on the exo force fails. There go all those hard-earned resources, and the Exo just killed the hive you were defending so no more upgrades.
You can't "go somewhere else" because you can't afford to lose the hive, and as you say, teamwork is required to kill an exo group. If half the team scatters off around the map killing power nodes, that exo is going to happily stomp all over the map, killing off your hives.
But wait, that force that went off to kill power nodes? They cant do crap either, because THEY DONT HAVE ANY UPGRADES. They'll get so far, run into the fortified bases around the 2 spots on the map the Marines need, wipe on the sentries, and respawn just in time to get stepped on by the Exo, which by this point probably has a friend or two.
Also, I'd recommend you take that holier-than-thou attitude and stick it somewhere, it isnt helping anyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your scenario sounds like the noob public games I've witnessed yesterday. Since neither side has any idea on how to play the game, the marine side that has the FPS experience from other games and guides the team into more teamwork will slowly win with end-game tech. Hapless aliens go around trying ineffective stuff and solo down their own lifeforms. Then the marines slowly grind a victory while aliens claim "EXO OP". Exo trains of doom are a symptom and are caused by the aliens losing the resource and tech location game in the first 15 min of a round. With practice, alien teamwork and combat effectiveness will get better and all those exos will make you think the marine comm is bad...
-Can't make toast
-Can't one-shot an Onos
-Doesnt get built-in wifi
-Cant launch a homing missile that finds a nearby hive and insta-kills it.
-Cant do The Robot
-Isnt free
Seriously, its SO underpowered. Needs buff naow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That post only shows your lack of seriousness on this topic. you just dont know what you are talking about and and cant argue back, therefore you should just not make any topics and learn how to play, cuz even i as a skulk can take down a dual-exo in a 1vs1...
Exos... Lol.
*Waits for locklear to make his math point about Exos*
Exos are NO counter for Onos, onos has 3500 hp and is a one man army of doom against most everything.
One on one it will bulldoze an exo, with backup it will rofl stomp the exo and all his buddies.
Onos is bigger, better, faster, stronger and comes into the game earlier.
Bilebomb makes your Exo unable to see and all his buddies around him stop shooting and pull out their welders.
Exo train comming your way? Force a beacon... Watch them run for their little lives when all their buddies are teleported back to base...
So exo is useless? No... But it has so many situation flaws that it is easily overcome by exploiting its weaknesses.
I have 1v1'd so many even with the piss poor pathetic NS2 fade just by always strafing to stand behind it and swiping its ass till it died.
Exo's aren't that strong either if you know how to take them down.
Single exo needs a buff. . . right now you can't punch a cyst <i>(range isn't long enough)</i>
Both exo's probably need a small <i>(possibly 15%)</i> movement speed increase
Having no way to exit your exo also seems unrealistic and overly punishing on the balance end
I think if marines got a pistol + welder when leaving, but could only jump out and back in an exo that has above 60% health
<i>(immitating body damage jamming the hatch)</i>
Ummanned exos on the ground could receive double damage and be disabled from use if attacked for a short time<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering Exos kill eggs they step on, they should also kill cysts they step on.
Also, BB is already crazy good.
On one side, lowering a little bit their damage would be good, as a lerk or gorge, you don't have to react when they fire at you, you just... die instantly.
But on the other side, a little boost to their base armor would be good too.
All that would make the combats more interesting. Make them last longer, while in the meantime you have to coordinate a little more your attacks to kill a big target.
I also liked the fact in NS1 that you had to stop firing to repair eachother. Now only the others can do it, it's really good when you have no one near (beacon). But I really loved the tension going very high and down when you had to stop attacking because you need to fix your armor. Now it's just a flat experience.
It's good to mix the tiimes of tension and calm in game, it makes great moments even greater, take example on Valve commentaries and studies :p
On one side, lowering a little bit their damage would be good, as a lerk or gorge, you don't have to react when they fire at you, you just... die instantly.
But on the other side, a little boost to their base armor would be good too.
All that would make the combats more interesting. Make them last longer, while in the meantime you have to coordinate a little more your attacks to kill a big target.
I also liked the fact in NS1 that you had to stop firing to repair eachother. Now only the others can do it, it's really good when you have no one near (beacon). But I really loved the tension going very high and down when you had to stop attacking because you need to fix your armor. Now it's just a flat experience.
It's good to mix the tiimes of tension and calm in game, it makes great moments even greater, take example on Valve commentaries and studies :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes this would make it better, although not making it stronger.
Flamethrower attachment would let you kill cysts very easily
I was actually really surprised when I found out you could stomp eggs <i>(that actually seemed OP to me)</i>
Air.
For the rest of this thread, ive played wayy too little NS2 to even chime in. But it was annoying as hell to see them here SC supapros saying siegetanks had no hardcounter. Air. They cant shoot air. There you go.
Marines also have to crouch to reach them with their axe. That's a point I agree on.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Both exo's probably need a small <i>(possibly 15%)</i> movement speed increase<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't expect a Leopard II to win the next Formula 1.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having no way to exit your exo also seems unrealistic and overly punishing on the balance end<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what makes it interesting! You have to think on a bigger strategic scale. No beacon, no insta-phasing around the map- THINK! You saved up your precious money all the time, now you got your shiny new Exo. Where should you go? How long might that take? To the hive? Or to double-res? If you are attacking there, where could you fall back if your weldermarines are beaconed home? Having Exos without any counter-weights would be like an insta-win button. Terribly boring.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think if marines got a pistol + welder when leaving, but could only jump out and back in an exo that has above 60% health<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In all my games I've never encountered a situation where the Exo was the last marine standing who needed to build something important for the big comeback.
If the aliens killed everyone but that Exo, the game was lost... sure, he could have built that IP but the situation was hopeless and he would've only prolonged a decided game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ummanned exos on the ground could receive double damage and be disabled from use if attacked for a short time<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have saved up all the time for that thing only to abandon it on first notice? Come on!
<!--quoteo(post=2004312:date=Nov 1 2012, 02:46 PM:name=SteelRodent)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SteelRodent @ Nov 1 2012, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2004312"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey, you know what else the Exo can't do?
-Can't make toast
-Can't one-shot an Onos
-Doesnt get built-in wifi
-Cant launch a homing missile that finds a nearby hive and insta-kills it.
-Cant do The Robot
-Isnt free<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^^
<!--quoteo(post=2004314:date=Nov 1 2012, 02:47 PM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Nov 1 2012, 02:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2004314"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sounds like the noob public games I've witnessed yesterday. Since neither side has any idea on how to play the game, the marine side that has the FPS experience from other games and guides the team into more teamwork will slowly win with end-game tech. Hapless aliens go around trying ineffective stuff and solo down their own lifeforms. Then the marines slowly grind a victory while aliens claim "EXO OP". Exo trains of doom are a symptom and are caused by the aliens losing the resource and tech location game in the first 15 min of a round. With practice, alien teamwork and combat effectiveness will get better and all those exos will make you think the marine comm is bad...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played on several servers yesterday playing both marines and aliens - very often comm, but also training others.
These games always tended to stretch forever because of the things you mentioned (inefficient Rambonos charge right into the bunkering marines' main base).
It was remarkable how often the Newbies repeated the same action that was proven inefficient the very first time they died... I'm quite sure these games would have gone on for 2 or 3 hours easily.
But then I told them that alien life form combos are more than the sum of its parts. With a little guidance and explanations ("Let's go for the power node!" being the most important, other favourites include "Use bile bomb instead of spit" or a very simple "come with me and let's ambush them together") we won all the games even though the team consisted of 90% first timers trying to make sense of alien play...
On the marine side of things, I agree with you when it comes to defending the main base. That's what every FPS player can do very well. But that does not win them the game, it's just an indefinite Bunker 3000 draw that stretches as long as the aliens' organisational chaos lasts...
Another a-ha moment for me was as a commander on a rookie dominated server the sentry is your most reliable unit. Forget about marines. A single AI-controlled MAC is more helpful than 80% of the human players. It welds, it supports, it builds - it even communicates with you...
I guess we are <a href="http://doomd.ytmnd.com/" target="_blank">doomed</a>.
I think if marines got a pistol + welder when leaving, but could only jump out and back in an exo that has above 60% health
<i>(immitating body damage jamming the hatch)</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea of the marine being able to exit the exo to weld it. With an increased delay to exit and enter. Would give the added gamplay of an isolated exo taking the risk of exiting to repair, getting possibly ambushed by passing aliens. Also the possibility of marines rushing to recover an unmanned exo before the aliens destroyed it..
Probably needs a lock tho' to prevent another marine from stealing the exo you are repairing it, reset if you die before the exo is destroyed