The alien 2nd hive requirement has gotta go
spaceturtle
Join Date: 2012-08-03 Member: 154714Members
Join Date: 2012-08-03 Member: 154714Members
It just creates a situation where a comeback is almost absolutely impossible as aliens as meaningful upgrades require the 2nd hive. Why do SO many core alien abilities require that 2nd hive? You can barely get anything without it. Marines are not hobbled by this restriction.
Early game is all about the 2nd hive, and if you fail or it gets toast, the game becomes a boring slow slide into defeat. I know this is simply stating the problem, but I'm curious what other players have in terms of ideas to fix this problem.
Early game is all about the 2nd hive, and if you fail or it gets toast, the game becomes a boring slow slide into defeat. I know this is simply stating the problem, but I'm curious what other players have in terms of ideas to fix this problem.
Comments
The Marine needs two command stations to make the prototype lab, which is a pretty big deal for those jetpacks and exos
The Marine needs two command stations to make the prototype lab, which is a pretty big deal for those jetpacks and exos<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine with shotgun outclasses everything but onos even with 3 hive upgrades and full abilities.
Many different systems were tried in the beta. Lifeforms, attacks and upgrades have all been linked to the number of hives at various times and in various combinations. It used to be that you couldn't have fades until 2 hives and Onos at 3 hives. it used to be that a given lifeform always had access to all abilities (like Onos got stomp straight away). It used to be that aliens could pick as many upgrades as they had built, not based on hives at all. The way it works now seems to be the most balanced, it results in marines and aliens winning pretty much equally.
Keep in mind, maps usually have 4 to 6 tech points, so aliens only need to claim two of those to get most abilities. If marines can hold 4/5 tech points, they deserve a strong advantage.
Ah right, forgot about those dastardly shotties
Unsure which one is faster:
Marine's Command Station, needs a marine to build it and needs power, also a still phased command station can be one hit killed just by biting/walking into it (when its in blue state)
Khaara's Alien Hive, needs cyst to go from the first hive to another tech point, no aliens needed to help build it but recommended, no infestation needed
Early game is all about the 2nd hive, and if you fail or it gets toast, the game becomes a boring slow slide into defeat. I know this is simply stating the problem, but I'm curious what other players have in terms of ideas to fix this problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're new to the forums, this is a dance that's been done too many times.
On this point have the devs ever said why they didn't add HMGs and return shot guns as a mid level weapon?
I believe the devs do not want to add the HMG because it would render the LMG obsolete.
They want the LMG to remain a viable weapon during the end-game as well (hence why LMG's are recommended against Onos.)
Yeah, and the cost 20 freaking res. *2 jetpacks worth.
You can't let your team get stuck playing D the entire game either.
Either ditch shadow step completely or leave it on hive one too.
I support this idea
Early game is all about the 2nd hive, and if you fail or it gets toast, the game becomes a boring slow slide into defeat. I know this is simply stating the problem, but I'm curious what other players have in terms of ideas to fix this problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I'd like something to that effect or atleast some flexibility in what Alien Coms can do instead of being forced into certain tech pathways. Also Aliens spawn system is kind of bleh.
At one point we could get all our upgrades at hive 1, but this meant leap was the immediate upgrade. So 30 seconds into every game, aliens would get it and start decimating the marines and achieve map control. Leap also made celerity less useful when it was so early.
UWE's response was to make 2 hive requirement. Personally I think thats the wrong decision, instead should be based on maturity if they want to delay the onset.
1 hive, mature - Leap, bile, blink, spores, stomp
2 hives - Vortex, umbra, xeno, etc
Just made it so first hive matury takes 3-4 minutes, can be reduced to 2 with constant nutrient mist.
At one point we could get all our upgrades at hive 1, but this meant leap was the immediate upgrade. So 30 seconds into every game, aliens would get it and start decimating the marines and achieve map control. Leap also made celerity less useful when it was so early.
UWE's response was to make 2 hive requirement. Personally I think thats the wrong decision, instead should be based on maturity if they want to delay the onset.
1 hive, mature - Leap, bile, blink, spores, stomp
2 hives - Vortex, umbra, xeno, etc
Just made it so first hive matury takes 3-4 minutes, can be reduced to 2 with constant nutrient mist.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5 minute Onos with Stomp? Yeah, wonderful.
Many different systems were tried in the beta. Lifeforms, attacks and upgrades have all been linked to the number of hives at various times and in various combinations. It used to be that you couldn't have fades until 2 hives and Onos at 3 hives. it used to be that a given lifeform always had access to all abilities (like Onos got stomp straight away). It used to be that aliens could pick as many upgrades as they had built, not based on hives at all. The way it works now seems to be the most balanced, it results in marines and aliens winning pretty much equally.
Keep in mind, maps usually have 4 to 6 tech points, so aliens only need to claim two of those to get most abilities. If marines can hold 4/5 tech points, they deserve a strong advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is exactly the reason why you don't balance around winrate until the game is where you want it :/
this is how flawed mechanics like two hive requirement and 6 minute onos slip through which make the game silly and linear. it doesn't matter if the way it works now yields the best winrate if it's a broken mechanic.
Either ditch shadow step completely or leave it on hive one too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blink is not that important actually. After the massive blink nerf I started to use shadow step more and what can I say, I barely use blink anymore because shadow step combined with double jump in my opinion is much better for attacking as it consumes much less energy and it provides pretty fast movement.
New hives do not need a cyst chain linked to them ;) So you can drop pretty much as soon as the game starts (not that you should, the team should find out where the marine base is first).
What I do is link a new harvester up, by which time the team would of found the enemy base. I then drop a new hive at the most suitable location. Now there will be little resources to do anything with, so I jump out, go to the new hive, evolve to a gorge, and start breathing my smelly healing breath on it to speed up its growth. By the time its done I'll have enough res to link up a new RT and maybe research something.
this is how flawed mechanics like two hive requirement and 6 minute onos slip through which make the game silly and linear. it doesn't matter if the way it works now yields the best winrate if it's a broken mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT
Did the beta testers not have any better ideas ? No, plenty of good ideas were put forth, UWE never tried them.
Will UWE make it better in the future ? maybe, but i think community modders will improve upon this games design flaws long before UWE do, perhaps UWE will pick and choose solutions derived from those mods and incorporate them into the official game.
<!--quoteo(post=2006068:date=Nov 2 2012, 10:24 AM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 2 2012, 10:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is exactly the reason why you don't balance around winrate until the game is where you want it :/
this is how flawed mechanics like two hive requirement and 6 minute onos slip through which make the game silly and linear. it doesn't matter if the way it works now yields the best winrate if it's a broken mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT from me too
Lets be honest its only really since the last few builds has the performance of the game jumped up.
The tweaks was to counter alien dominance BUT at the time the marines could barely shoot and hit anything due to FPS issues, now the shooting has improved its worth looking at the hive requirements again...
... and the viability of late game Skulks.
Its been my experience that teams love to stack the marine side, and leave the aliens to whoever was too slow... if aliens are so balanced why stack the marine team ? I never have an issue getting onto the alien team but rarely get to play as marine, and when the stacking team gives the other guys a chance on the marines they ALWAYS skulk rush and end it in 2 min then go back to stacking marines (I have managed to actually play a Exo <b>once</b> and that was at the exo launch build).
I wouldnt be all too suprised if the majority of Alien wins are under 5 mins due to rushes.... wonder whats the percentages are like at late games, my feeling is about 80% marine win 20% alien.
Marines on the other hand can lose their second CC and still be competitive, they will still have all their upgrades, all their weapons and ARCs. Surely you can see how this discrepancy isn't right?
In addition, the second hive shouldn't be the ultimate nobrainer at the start of the game like it is currently. Going for res and first hive upgrades should be an equally viable strstegic choice upto some point in the midgame, at which point you would need that second hive of course. But without leap skulks just fall off quickly. That's why for ages now I've been proposing allowing aliens to get leap on a first MATURE hive, but at a larger cost or longer research time. That way at least the alien strategic gameplay wouldn't be so mind bogglingly shallow.
It's to punish absolute turtling which is very easy to do
It's also not that difficult to take a second hive even when the enemy team is winning the majority of the fights
2 gorges can hold back a pretty heavy wave of marines just by outhealing damage on hydras
When marines expand fast and put down 3 phase gates chances are they don't have any upgrades and are easy prey to a coordinated attack
<i>(Like their main base. . . maybe?)</i>
Many games I've commanded on alien didn't even require the second hive. . .
I just would drop one when the money piled up too high because the forward structures are so expensive you rarely get your monies worth out of them
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<u><b>SkiT:</b></u>
Yep. . .
You can lose the whole game as alien and then one good push suddenly turns it around or might even outright win you the game
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Lets be honest its only really since the last few builds has the performance of the game jumped up.
The tweaks was to counter alien dominance BUT at the time the marines could barely shoot and hit anything due to FPS issues, now the shooting has improved its worth looking at the hive requirements again...
... and the viability of late game Skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you are absolutely correct. I started playing in 220, where there were skulks had a horrible bite range and basically had to be touching marines to bite them. the following patch, bite range got increased to be massive again. the following patch, bite range was nerfed to a "better but still bad" state. the following patch, "glancing bites" were added, giving us our current system, and two patches later, the game was released. this game was almost unplayable for me until build 224 performance-wise (constant jittering, constant rubberbanding, mediocre FPS), and it honestly didn't really get smooth and playable until v1.0.
during this whole time, massive other balance changes were made. the Fade used to be as silly as the Onos currently is. but the balance numbers swung wildly from patch to patch, turning the fade from a teleporting assasin to the two-shotted garbage it is today. you can see this with the hit registry fix, fade nerf, skulk movement nerf... I was watching some matches from the old beta tournaments, and half of the players are just warping around. this is no indication of balance whatsoever.
iirc the same patch we nerfed the Fade, we had massive optimization changes, as well. this would happen time and time again (really it just goes to show how many improvements were being made on optimization, but still), where something good but not necessarily OP was nerfed at the same build that a massive performance increase hit, leading to no real data, especially because it felt like each new patch would bring about one large bug while fixing a dozen other ones. again, this is expected of a beta, but that is why it was difficult to gather solid information on where aliens needed to be.
<!--quoteo(post=2006209:date=Nov 2 2012, 03:26 AM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Nov 2 2012, 03:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006209"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its been my experience that teams love to stack the marine side, and leave the aliens to whoever was too slow... if aliens are so balanced why stack the marine team ? I never have an issue getting onto the alien team but rarely get to play as marine, and when the stacking team gives the other guys a chance on the marines they ALWAYS skulk rush and end it in 2 min then go back to stacking marines (I have managed to actually play a Exo <b>once</b> and that was at the exo launch build).
I wouldnt be all too suprised if the majority of Alien wins are under 5 mins due to rushes.... wonder whats the percentages are like at late games, my feeling is about 80% marine win 20% alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually have quite a humorous statistic from the old ns2stats page where the opposite is actually true, but for the same reasons:
I had 1/4th alien games played, but I had spent almost 3/4ths of my total time <i>playing</i> aliens. to me, supports the point that aliens have no push / lategame / game-ending strategy or mechanic. it was actually quite disheartening.
<!--quoteo(post=2006258:date=Nov 2 2012, 04:03 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Nov 2 2012, 04:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006258"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In addition, the second hive shouldn't be the ultimate nobrainer at the start of the game like it is currently. Going for res and first hive upgrades should be an equally viable strstegic choice upto some point in the midgame, at which point you would need that second hive of course. But without leap skulks just fall off quickly. That's why for ages now I've been proposing allowing aliens to get leap on a first MATURE hive, but at a larger cost or longer research time. That way at least the alien strategic gameplay wouldn't be so mind bogglingly shallow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is very true as well. the great thing about a marine opening such as phase gates is you can immediately see their effects and why they're a good strategy. phase gates allow for more map control. newbies can grasp this concept quite easily if they've played any other FPS, and can realize the value in investing in phase gates. the same goes for mines, shotguns, and forward armories.
compare these mechanics to the alien side. every tech path seems lacking, with no real immediate tangible benefits. celerity skulks aren't <i>great</i>, they're just better than vanilla skulks. nor is carapace. shotguns are great. onos is great. hypermutation was getting there. arcs are now pretty great.
camouflage and silence? not so much. shade has nice immediate benefits that are obvious, but it's unfortunately paired with the most useless upgrades. (bring focus back? :P) you can't set up something clever like a forward shift or crag because they're too fragile and not effective enough, respectively.
tl;dr the argument always boils down to the same exact thing: all of the alien options are extremely lacking, and/or and require an absurdly higher level of execution than the marine options. also, optimization is good and people can shoot now.
Still need that second hive for commander to drop onos eggs, and alien players won't have 75 res that quick.
Funny enough, I agree completely. I have made several comments since build 200 about the tail wagging the dog; gameplay being sacrificed on the alter of balance... Flamethrower being transformed to a dps weapon from an energy sapping weapon, shotgun being switched to normal damage, fade taking damage mid-blink, and some other stuff which has been reverted or undone.
<!--quoteo(post=2006068:date=Nov 2 2012, 08:24 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 2 2012, 08:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is how flawed mechanics like two hive requirement and 6 minute onos slip through which make the game silly and linear. it doesn't matter if the way it works now yields the best winrate if it's a broken mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two hive 'requirement' is not a problem in the same league as 6 minute Onos. Just to be clear, I think 6 min Onos has pretty devastating consequences but isn't overly abused such that it shows up in the stats. Which only harks back to your first point - game balance is a subset of good game design. But as for two hives, I don't see a problem. Maybe skulks are a little too dependent on (Leap OR Celerity) for basic evasion, but that's about it.
how can you only get 1 hive? if you can't even establish a 2nd hive then your team sucks... blame the player's, not the game.