NarfwakJoin Date: 2002-11-02Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=2005956:date=Nov 2 2012, 01:34 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 01:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact, that's why I consider multiplayer RTS to be one of the most pathetic forms of video gaming only played by pathetic, pedantic nerds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wait, what? But... NS2 is a multiplayer RTS/FPS. Why are you posting about it if you hate the genre...? /baffled
To be honest, though, pretty much any game needs to have consequences for mistakes. If you take that out you're talking about a sandbox or a fun ride, but not a game.
<!--quoteo(post=2005968:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:45 AM:name=Narfwak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Narfwak @ Nov 2 2012, 06:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait, what? But... NS2 is a multiplayer RTS/FPS. Why are you posting about it if you hate the genre...? /baffled<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because, smart-one, that's why I don't play commander.
Effectively what you're saying is that it's cool that the entire outcome of an 8-man team is entirely decided by one player making (or not making) any mistakes, either because he's learning or just not very good at it. Not only for the health of the gameplay but overall enjoyment, it's obvious that that shouldn't be the case. In fact, from what I can tell, the decision to give personal resources out was done entirely to limit the impact the commander has on the immediate gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=2005974:date=Nov 2 2012, 09:51 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 09:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Effectively what you're saying is that it's cool that the entire outcome of an 8-man team is entirely decided by one player making (or not making) any mistakes, either because he's learning or just not very good at it. Not only for the health of the gameplay but overall enjoyment, it's obvious that that shouldn't be the case. In fact, from what I can tell, the decision to give personal resources out was done entirely to limit the impact the commander has on the immediate gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It can be frustrating when a commander fails the team, but thats how it goes. We don't need more than one commander, so that commander will be the single point of failure. If he doesn't do his job and the team can't guide the comm, then you will lose. Comes with the territory. I haven't seen better alternatives, but maybe you can educate us?
AFAIK the decision to use personal resources was made to help with scaling. In NS1 marines only had team resources which made equipment scarcer and scarcer as team size grew. This personal resource system takes different team sizes better into account.
NarfwakJoin Date: 2002-11-02Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=2005974:date=Nov 2 2012, 01:51 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 01:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because, smart-one, that's why I don't play commander.
Effectively what you're saying is that it's cool that the entire outcome of an 8-man team is entirely decided by one player making (or not making) any mistakes, either because he's learning or just not very good at it. Not only for the health of the gameplay but overall enjoyment, it's obvious that that shouldn't be the case. In fact, from what I can tell, the decision to give personal resources out was done entirely to limit the impact the commander has on the immediate gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not what I'm saying at all, and I don't really appreciate your tone. The point is that if the team, collectively, fails to prevent the enemy team, collectively, from acquiring more territory and tech options they are going to face an increasingly uphill battle. This has as much to do with individual player performance in each individual battle as it does small group tactical performance and long-term build order and strategy. Regardless of what they are or where they occur, though, successes and failures need to have consequence. This is true of any objective-based team-oriented FPS game, and the importance of resources, tech, and territorial control (the RTS elements of NS2) magnify that further.
As a side note I find the idea that the entire strategic responsibility for either team rests solely on the shoulders of their commander to be a bit silly. In nearly every game I've played decision making is a collaborative effort made by the team as a whole and not the commander issuing edicts to his minions from on high.
<!--quoteo(post=2005956:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:34 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 06:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->RTS to be one of the most pathetic forms of video gaming only played by pathetic, pedantic nerds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't the guy who quit his day job to work full time on NS1 an RTS fan? Wasn't the concept of NS thought up to be a game RTS players and FPS players could play together? If I'm correct then you've just insulted the guy(s) who came up with the game.
Also using "nerd" as an insult.<i> Really?</i> I haven't heard that used to insult a group of people since I left school.
Use umbra( messes up vision and makes bullets miss) and spore from lerkss, followed by bilebomb and a few skulks, onos if you have them and you can pretty much melt exos and marines.
Bio Bomb is already good enough, if anything it absolutely wrecks a lot of things in the right environment. The times I played, I often scored a crap ton of points just by healing Onoses and throwing bile bombs at every building I came across. Worked great, 'cause we were working as a team!
On the same vein, Exos are great if you have a team to back them up, but of course sometimes you have to realize that a dedicated welder can sometimes be a gap in the team if the Exo is off in the wrong place and has to walk a long way to go somewhere useful. Personally, I think it's all working out right now.
Also: Azurescorch and Crazyb4strd: I keep seeing you two around, lol. First UT3, then Nexiuz, now Natural Selection? And even Tribes maybe. Small world.
<!--quoteo(post=2006205:date=Nov 2 2012, 11:20 AM:name=Squishpoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squishpoke @ Nov 2 2012, 11:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also: Azurescorch and Crazyb4strd: I keep seeing you two around, lol. First UT3, then Nexiuz, now Natural Selection? And even Tribes maybe. Small world.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
:D Dude, yes. We've played all of them for a few hundred hours (UT3 was in the thousands of hours). Not so much Nexiuz though, we were less than impressed by that game once it got released. What can I say? You clearly also have good taste in games ;)
<!--quoteo(post=2006205:date=Nov 2 2012, 11:20 AM:name=Squishpoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squishpoke @ Nov 2 2012, 11:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also: Azurescorch and Crazyb4strd: I keep seeing you two around, lol. First UT3, then Nexiuz, now Natural Selection? And even Tribes maybe. Small world.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2005956:date=Nov 2 2012, 01:34 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 01:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You say that like anything you just mentioned is in any way a good thing.
I don't play RTS games because having specific build orders and having to do certain things within certain timings or you'll lose 15 minutes later isn't my idea of fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You've gotten it entirely backwards. I don't think you really understand the concept of build orders. "build orders" are about maximizing your resource aquisition and spending into a certain direction. If you build towards a timing attack, and completely screw it up, yes, you have a disadvantage, but most RTS games are FAR FAR more decisive in this regard than NS2 is. Especially for Kharra.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact, that's why I consider multiplayer RTS to be one of the most pathetic forms of video gaming only played by pathetic, pedantic nerds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Was this necessary? You say that like it's something to be proud of. Congratulations on your lack of tolerance for genre's that don't suit you personally. Forgive me in the future when I find it impossible to respect your opinion on any of the many many areas where NS intersects the RTS genre as it's apparently all just self imposed racism style ignorance...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the most common complaints I saw about NS1 was how easy it was to landslide a victory. If skulks got a good rush in the beginning, it was GG. If marines got too many aliens and the Gorge, it was GG. The game was commonly criticized for how the outcome was decided in the first 5-10 minutes of gameplay. So why would anyone want that back?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS2 has done little or nothing to change this. There are many lessons that could have been learned from RTS games in this regard, but I think we've had backwards progress actually.
<!--quoteo(post=2005956:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:34 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 06:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact, that's why I consider multiplayer RTS to be one of the most pathetic forms of video gaming only played by pathetic, pedantic nerds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol... just... lol... New sig... lol...
<!--quoteo(post=2006880:date=Nov 2 2012, 05:56 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 2 2012, 05:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You've gotten it entirely backwards. I don't think you really understand the concept of build orders. "build orders" are about maximizing your resource aquisition and spending into a certain direction. If you build towards a timing attack, and completely screw it up, yes, you have a disadvantage, but most RTS games are FAR FAR more decisive in this regard than NS2 is. Especially for Kharra.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, NS2 currently has very few early game build orders. And IMO doing anything drastically different as commander without consulting your team is kind griefing. (Yes yes... I just called shade hive first/second griefing... flame on...)
<!--quoteo(post=2006880:date=Nov 2 2012, 05:56 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 2 2012, 05:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 has done little or nothing to change this. There are many lessons that could have been learned from RTS games in this regard, but I think we've had backwards progress actually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The ability to win the game by precision and well timed attacks at any point within the game is important in my oppinion and saying NS2 took a step backwards by making them More prominent is arguing that they are a bad thing... Are they a bad thing? Do you want the game to be as simple as he who is further ahead will win? Or do you want a losing team to be able to claw back a victory if the winning team makes a mistake?
Honestly, NS2 currently has very few early game build orders. And IMO doing anything drastically different as commander without consulting your team is kind griefing. (Yes yes... I just called shade hive first/second griefing... flame on...)
The ability to win the game by precision and well timed attacks at any point within the game is important in my oppinion and saying NS2 took a step backwards by making them More prominent is arguing that they are a bad thing... Are they a bad thing? Do you want the game to be as simple as he who is further ahead will win? Or do you want a losing team to be able to claw back a victory if the winning team makes a mistake?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS1 had the ability to win a game with precision and well timed attacks as well. I suppose we do have the phenomena now where aliens can't so easily teleport around the map to wherever the marines are choosing to focus attention... and at the same time marines have to defend an all important power node in their base... but honestly, both those things have massive negatives, and I feel like they take more away from the game then the add to it.
Without those mechanics, NS2 is worse for the slippery slope than NS1 I feel. Resource collection is distributed amounst too many entities, and the comm usually never has the opportunity to res dump into an exceptionally strong push. There is less of an element of choosing weather you dropped a half dozen shotguns, or got another 3 nodes up in NS2 than there was in NS. Alien commander doesn't really seem to have any meaningful timing decisions at all. Most of the things he does are busy work.
Like you say, generally speaking there's an optimum build in both games and it's very rarely deviated from.
Comments
Wait, what? But... NS2 is a multiplayer RTS/FPS. Why are you posting about it if you hate the genre...? /baffled
To be honest, though, pretty much any game needs to have consequences for mistakes. If you take that out you're talking about a sandbox or a fun ride, but not a game.
Because, smart-one, that's why I don't play commander.
Effectively what you're saying is that it's cool that the entire outcome of an 8-man team is entirely decided by one player making (or not making) any mistakes, either because he's learning or just not very good at it. Not only for the health of the gameplay but overall enjoyment, it's obvious that that shouldn't be the case. In fact, from what I can tell, the decision to give personal resources out was done entirely to limit the impact the commander has on the immediate gameplay.
It can be frustrating when a commander fails the team, but thats how it goes. We don't need more than one commander, so that commander will be the single point of failure. If he doesn't do his job and the team can't guide the comm, then you will lose. Comes with the territory. I haven't seen better alternatives, but maybe you can educate us?
AFAIK the decision to use personal resources was made to help with scaling. In NS1 marines only had team resources which made equipment scarcer and scarcer as team size grew. This personal resource system takes different team sizes better into account.
Effectively what you're saying is that it's cool that the entire outcome of an 8-man team is entirely decided by one player making (or not making) any mistakes, either because he's learning or just not very good at it. Not only for the health of the gameplay but overall enjoyment, it's obvious that that shouldn't be the case. In fact, from what I can tell, the decision to give personal resources out was done entirely to limit the impact the commander has on the immediate gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not what I'm saying at all, and I don't really appreciate your tone. The point is that if the team, collectively, fails to prevent the enemy team, collectively, from acquiring more territory and tech options they are going to face an increasingly uphill battle. This has as much to do with individual player performance in each individual battle as it does small group tactical performance and long-term build order and strategy. Regardless of what they are or where they occur, though, successes and failures need to have consequence. This is true of any objective-based team-oriented FPS game, and the importance of resources, tech, and territorial control (the RTS elements of NS2) magnify that further.
As a side note I find the idea that the entire strategic responsibility for either team rests solely on the shoulders of their commander to be a bit silly. In nearly every game I've played decision making is a collaborative effort made by the team as a whole and not the commander issuing edicts to his minions from on high.
<!--quoteo(post=2005956:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:34 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 06:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->RTS to be one of the most pathetic forms of video gaming only played by pathetic, pedantic nerds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't the guy who quit his day job to work full time on NS1 an RTS fan? Wasn't the concept of NS thought up to be a game RTS players and FPS players could play together? If I'm correct then you've just insulted the guy(s) who came up with the game.
Also using "nerd" as an insult.<i> Really?</i> I haven't heard that used to insult a group of people since I left school.
But nar, lerks need to be flying skulks. aka paper.
On the same vein, Exos are great if you have a team to back them up, but of course sometimes you have to realize that a dedicated welder can sometimes be a gap in the team if the Exo is off in the wrong place and has to walk a long way to go somewhere useful. Personally, I think it's all working out right now.
Also: Azurescorch and Crazyb4strd: I keep seeing you two around, lol. First UT3, then Nexiuz, now Natural Selection? And even Tribes maybe. Small world.
:D Dude, yes. We've played all of them for a few hundred hours (UT3 was in the thousands of hours). Not so much Nexiuz though, we were less than impressed by that game once it got released. What can I say? You clearly also have good taste in games ;)
Stalker.
I don't play RTS games because having specific build orders and having to do certain things within certain timings or you'll lose 15 minutes later isn't my idea of fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've gotten it entirely backwards. I don't think you really understand the concept of build orders. "build orders" are about maximizing your resource aquisition and spending into a certain direction. If you build towards a timing attack, and completely screw it up, yes, you have a disadvantage, but most RTS games are FAR FAR more decisive in this regard than NS2 is. Especially for Kharra.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact, that's why I consider multiplayer RTS to be one of the most pathetic forms of video gaming only played by pathetic, pedantic nerds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was this necessary? You say that like it's something to be proud of. Congratulations on your lack of tolerance for genre's that don't suit you personally. Forgive me in the future when I find it impossible to respect your opinion on any of the many many areas where NS intersects the RTS genre as it's apparently all just self imposed racism style ignorance...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the most common complaints I saw about NS1 was how easy it was to landslide a victory. If skulks got a good rush in the beginning, it was GG. If marines got too many aliens and the Gorge, it was GG. The game was commonly criticized for how the outcome was decided in the first 5-10 minutes of gameplay. So why would anyone want that back?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 has done little or nothing to change this. There are many lessons that could have been learned from RTS games in this regard, but I think we've had backwards progress actually.
Lol... just... lol...
New sig... lol...
<!--quoteo(post=2006880:date=Nov 2 2012, 05:56 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 2 2012, 05:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You've gotten it entirely backwards. I don't think you really understand the concept of build orders. "build orders" are about maximizing your resource aquisition and spending into a certain direction. If you build towards a timing attack, and completely screw it up, yes, you have a disadvantage, but most RTS games are FAR FAR more decisive in this regard than NS2 is. Especially for Kharra.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, NS2 currently has very few early game build orders.
And IMO doing anything drastically different as commander without consulting your team is kind griefing.
(Yes yes... I just called shade hive first/second griefing... flame on...)
Marines = Armour, Mines, RTs, Phase tech.
Aliens = Res, Hive, Res, Leap, Onos (or Carapace + Celerity then Onos.)
<!--quoteo(post=2006880:date=Nov 2 2012, 05:56 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 2 2012, 05:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 has done little or nothing to change this. There are many lessons that could have been learned from RTS games in this regard, but I think we've had backwards progress actually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The ability to win the game by precision and well timed attacks at any point within the game is important in my oppinion and saying NS2 took a step backwards by making them More prominent is arguing that they are a bad thing... Are they a bad thing?
Do you want the game to be as simple as he who is further ahead will win? Or do you want a losing team to be able to claw back a victory if the winning team makes a mistake?
New sig... lol...
Honestly, NS2 currently has very few early game build orders.
And IMO doing anything drastically different as commander without consulting your team is kind griefing.
(Yes yes... I just called shade hive first/second griefing... flame on...)
Marines = Armour, Mines, RTs, Phase tech.
Aliens = Res, Hive, Res, Leap, Onos (or Carapace + Celerity then Onos.)
The ability to win the game by precision and well timed attacks at any point within the game is important in my oppinion and saying NS2 took a step backwards by making them More prominent is arguing that they are a bad thing... Are they a bad thing?
Do you want the game to be as simple as he who is further ahead will win? Or do you want a losing team to be able to claw back a victory if the winning team makes a mistake?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS1 had the ability to win a game with precision and well timed attacks as well. I suppose we do have the phenomena now where aliens can't so easily teleport around the map to wherever the marines are choosing to focus attention... and at the same time marines have to defend an all important power node in their base... but honestly, both those things have massive negatives, and I feel like they take more away from the game then the add to it.
Without those mechanics, NS2 is worse for the slippery slope than NS1 I feel. Resource collection is distributed amounst too many entities, and the comm usually never has the opportunity to res dump into an exceptionally strong push. There is less of an element of choosing weather you dropped a half dozen shotguns, or got another 3 nodes up in NS2 than there was in NS. Alien commander doesn't really seem to have any meaningful timing decisions at all. Most of the things he does are busy work.
Like you say, generally speaking there's an optimum build in both games and it's very rarely deviated from.