Alien Commander Questions

Splzdnkl · November 2012

<div class="IPBDescription">.. or where can i improve my skills as alien commander?</div>So far i'm using a simplified strategy and need some advice where i can improve my part as khaara commander.

Current build order:

- Evolve to Crag Hive
- Cryst path to 2 resource nodes
- Build 2 Harvester
- Build Shell
- Evolve to Carapace Shell

Now we should have found the marine base and i will build away from it to get a second hive. Maybe getting another 1 to 2 harvester on the way. Build 1-2 drifter and observe path to second hive.

- Build 2nd Hive
- Maybe Onos Egg (if Marines push to hard) otherwise build Spur and evolve to Celerity Spur
- Upgrade Leap
- Upgrade Blink

In 9 out of 10 games this allowed us to win (maybe i got lucky and marines sucked throughout the games)

So here are my questions:

- How do you use those useless whips (maybe i have bad placement)?
- How you use those expensive and useless bombard whisps (30 ressources + a hell of evolving/maturing time)?

- Are crags worth it? I rarely build them in early / midgame .. maybe 1 or 2 behind hive to get some minor healing. Onos is complaining that even healing wave isnt noticeable

- What are the use case scenarios for shifts beside Egg spawning? Do you need egg spawning after 2nd hive? What is the benefit of Echo?
- Is umbra for lerks only or for crags too? (see <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Umbra" target="_blank">Umbra crag (wiki)</a> and <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Hive" target="_blank">Umbra Lerk (wiki)</a>

- Do you use cryst exploding, nutrient mist or bone wall often? .. and how?

Xarius · November 2012

Personally I would never recommend crag hive first, the bonus celerity or leap on quick second hive gives to skulks is much more beneficial (since most skulk players struggle closing the distance, carapace barely helps with that) It also makes lerks actually viable, which they are not without celerity. Then crag and carapace at second hive.

It also depends on the map really, on some maps a quick second hive is more viable than trying to hold RTs. (Veil comes to mind, unless you have a good enough team that can hold nano and the cyst chain)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>- How do you use those useless whips (maybe i have bad placement)?</div>
You don't, or at least not before you've researched more important things first. So usually whips should be placed only later in the game.
Best placement:
- Next to your upgrade chambers to prevent marines from ninja'ing them. (Just using your p.res to go gorge and clog them up as a commander works too mind you)
- Behind a gorge clog wall with hydras, to stop marines from trying to climb over. This is excellent in REALLY locking down a gorge's position well into the mid game.
- Next to door openings, NEVER place whips in plain sight, just like hydras they should only be in positions where by the time a marine can shoot it they will already be getting hit by it.
- Anywhere, but only if you have shades and res to spare
- In hive room forward bases, to stop sole grenade launchers, or at least win you some more time.

Whips used to properly throw back grenades at the marines who fired them, that was AMAZING, and many of us hope they will revert that change so we can get that back, whips were pretty decent with it, but as it stands they are hardly worth the 15 t.res. They were also supposedly going to be used as alien siege cannons (with the bilebomb), you can try echoing or walking them into a marine forward base, but that usually doesn't work.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>- Is umbra for lerks only or for crags too? (see Umbra crag (wiki) and Umbra Lerk (wiki)</div>
Only lerk, it was cut from crags. Crags will be getting babblers eventually I believe.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>- Do you use cryst exploding, nutrient mist or bone wall often? .. and how?</div>
You only need nutrient mist when players are evolving into a (bigger) lifeform (fade, onos) or when you drop a lifeform egg and want it to speed up.
Cyst explosion is pretty useless, I've personally never used it, though it obstructs vision so it could be useful to assist your skulks on the ground, technically...
Bone wall is great, use it to save lifeforms being chased by marines, to split up a marine team (allowing the aliens to ransack the cut off marines), trap multiple marines (they get stuck in the spikes) or just block some damage to win time. (For example, marines hitting a hive, keep dropping bone wall to soak damage and win time for aliens to get there).

d0ped0g · November 2012

I wouldn't evolve the crag hive right away. Build the harvesters first. Though I guess you might have enough resources for all of them at the start anyway.

Also, shift is a good 1st hive as celerity allows better map control and shifts allow faster hive building & ability to respawn at hive location while it's still building. However, crag is a viable hive choice as well so each to his own I guess.

I've noticed the predominant strategy for aliens in competitive matches usually involves an almost immediate hive drop. I'm really not sure why this is done (as opposed to getting a couple extractors first) as often you're stuck in the situation where your hive is built, but you don't have enough resources to spend on fast leap or any other lifeform evolutions (as you've chosen to forgo resources for getting the hive up superfast). There must be a reason why it's so prevalent in clan play though. I myself don't see the benefit however - if the goal is to get 2nd hive quickly to get quick leap, and but you still have to wait for the resources to get leap once the hive is built, have you really gotten leap any quicker?

messageboy · November 2012

One tactic that I have recently found out as alien commanders are to create forward bases in the hallways or none base areas close to the marine's bases like they do with phase gates. The shift building allows you to spawn eggs around it for 1 res each egg, so you can set up a spot right outside of marine base for offence spawning. Add in a couple of healing crags and invis, makes it a strong point for the aliens to pressure the marines or even overrun them.

The whips are great only with placement, they are meant to be place around sharp turns or behind walls, forcing the marines to come up close to the whip in order to even shoot at it. Placement is everything when it comes to the whips.

Bone wall is a great thing for when you have onos running around, since you can shield them when they are running to heal back up.

Xarius · November 2012

You can get a second harvester and a second hive at the start of a game (then leap the moment second hive is up), so most teams opt for that over staying on 1 hive. This is done because second hive is a HUGE game changer, leap allows aliens to compete much easier and it gives access to an onos egg which is by far the most powerful strat at the moment.

Shift is also great as a first hive, not just because of celerity but also because a forward shift + eggs can provide you with some much needed extra spawns and forward pressure/map control.

Cr4zyb4st4rd · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Splzdnkl @ Nov 2 2012, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>- Are crags worth it? I rarely build them in early / midgame .. maybe 1 or 2 behind hive to get some minor healing. Onos is complaining that even healing wave isnt noticeable</div>

Early game I don't build them, getting upgrades on your first to hives is normally a better way to spend resources, as you progress to mid and late game building some crags at 'forward bases' it allows your team to not need to run back to hives to heal. One crag is pretty useless for an onos, normally I build a minimum of two crags with a shift upto a maximum of 'hey lets spend all the res on crags, lol'.

In most games I play as alien depending on marine spawn I will go fast second hive. The benefits of a second hive are invaluable, but it does mean your team will need to be more co-ordinated, you're going to be low on res so if marines snipe a RT you can easily end up behind very quickly. Especially if you waste res on cysts, generally a second hive and a second RT and then save up for leap as soon as the hive finishes building, fro there another RT and then you can start with getting a shift hive and continue on. Leap with celerity as Xarius said is awesome at helping skulks close distance and at the same time it's much easier to retreat from areas with them too.

MaximumSquid · November 2012

<u><b>Splzdnkl:</b></u>

Early Crag means that skulks will be better, but Gorges and Lerks will have a harder time than if you got Celerity

It also means that you have no backup plan if you get egg locked <i>(Can't build eggs without a Shift)</i>

Early Crag is usually best suited for skulk rushes

In general I would recommend trying to take as many res nodes without upgrades early in the game and then choose a proper tech route once you see how your enemy is playing

The exception would be going "Fast Camouflage" on Docking so you can hold courtyard easily

Xarius · November 2012

Early crags aren't veryuseful, just get 1 - 2 gorges.

Splzdnkl · November 2012

Thanks all for clarifing the Crag / Shift decision for 1st hive and going 2nd hive first

Challenges:
- I play only public games and i have rarely seen any good lerks so far
- Also i suck playing skulk - i always go better with carapace than with celerity (maybe i should stop running towards marines in a straight line)
- rushing to second hive is also dangerous in my eyes, for example:

ns_mineshaft
- i want to see what place marines decide to shut down
- if they try to fortify Repair, than i will take Sorting (if Deposit, than i will take Repair)
- doing first move with second hive give marines better options in my eyes

Conclusion for my future public games:
- Try at least some games replacing going crag first with going shift first
- Do more blocking with bone walls
- Consider some shift forward bases
- Dont use all the unnesseary t.res spending abilities (crag, echo, bombard whips, whatsoever)

... and get a good book for end game because as alien commander you cant really help the team after third hive and essential upgrades (besides playing some SimCity and building lots of unneeded stuff in sparsely visited areas) ;)

Typhon · November 2012

Drifters! Build 2 or 3 and place them at major intersections on the map.

Xarius · November 2012

Yea, the problem with most lerks and skulks is that they move in straight lines or just sit still for too long, allowing marines to pick them off. A good skulk with celerity and using wall jump will be able to easily close the distance and dodge a lot more effectively. This is why I think with greater dodge skill thanks to celerity your survivability is much higher than it is using carapace. As a lerk it's simply a necessity, good lerks will fly in and out biting, while dodging hits and for this speed is a must. Bad lerks however will just sit or roost somehwere spiking, fly in straight lines or fly into a marine and then sit there biting, those are all excellent ways to die as a lerk and unfortunately more common in your average pub game.

If you rush a second hive, always make sure there's at least one gorge there who drops his hydras, communicate with your team and ensure marines don't just stumble upon it. Too often I see commanders just dropping a second hive without getting the team to defend it. It's only risky if your team is asleep really. Also, going second hive, leap then carapace works great too, leap gives aliens the needed mobility where as carapace will keep them alive for longer and help vs shotguns and mines. (Instead of second hive, leap, cele then crag later)

Mestaritonttu · November 2012

If you need to close a distance to a marine you're already doing it wrong, shouldn't use celerity to encourage attacking through those famous long corridors. Also celerity is no good for dodging, because once the first bullet hits and you're in combat it stops working. I still think for skulks vs. marine carapace is better.

Only reason I go shift is because dropping a shift in a location you wanna secure/take and popping out a few eggs is just really good. But if you're in a location where you think you can contain the marines without extra effort, I rather go cara and give the skulks better combat capabilities.

Splzdnkl · November 2012

Repost from <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123089" target="_blank">General Guide to Pub Alien Commanding</a>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Assumptions from ns2 wiki:
- LMG/shotgun: Normal (Every armor point of the target will absorb 2 points of damage)
- Mine/sentry/pistol: Light (Every armor point of the target will absorb 4 points of damage)
- Skulk: 70 health + 10 armor
- Carapace: + 20 (30 in total)
- Celerity: + 30% speed

-> vs LMG/shotgun we have 90 health vs 120 health with carapace (+44%)
-> vs mine/pistol/sentry we have 110 health vs 190 health with carapace (+73%)
-> Speed only helps closing the gap 30% faster and does not help in close quarter fights

I still dont get it why fast crag hive is no viable strategy especially in the early game.</div>

- Lerk: 125 health + 50 armor
- Carapace: + 25 armor (75 in total)
- Celerity: +20% speed

-> vs LMG/shotgun we have 225 health vs 275 (+22%)
-> vs mine/pistol/sentry we have 325 health vs 425 health (+31%)

As lerk we almost survive two full pistol clips and as Mestaritonttu mentioned celerity stops working in close combat

MistenTH · November 2012

Celerity is strategic, not for mid-combat. It gets you into effective bite range faster, or to let you reinforce your team faster to attack or defend. It allows you to pressure hard, and to bounce from defence to defence. Coupled with a forward shift with eggs, shift provides a lot of pressure.

I use a few different BOs as Khamm atm:

[1] Hard Economy
Cyst up fast and get 4 RTs. Granted, this is only for when your team is dominating as skulk or there are a lot of newbies. Like now. As players gain experience this build will not work. Atm, it gives a huge lead, especially if the marine comm is slowly turret farming.

[2] Fast Hive
Fast hive, 2 gorge hydra/fast grow hive. No cysts. Just enough res to upgrade leap and grab the 2nd hive RT. Then build up from there. Requires those 1-2 gorges to do their job. As Khamm, I go gorge and drop hydras in my hive to prevent it from being egg/res locked, which is the danger with fast hive.

[3] Shift forward egg pressure
This focuses on a forward shift to provide respawns closer to the action & to hold RTs. I aim to get 2-3 RTs and celerity before dropping 2nd hive. This is quite good as long as teams are closely skilled. Early games is prolonged as marines can't hold RTs as easily.

[4] Fast upgrade
Fast shift/crag, fast celerity/carapace. Then 2 RTs. Build from there. Most passive opener, or when your team can't seem to fend off marines, then this is your main choice left.

As Khamm, listen for marine movement, see where fighting is happening. Alert your team 1 room in advance that marines are moving to your RT, or guide them to attack and push.

Building drifters and scattering them in critical movement junctions gives you great intel. Just 2 well placed ones can help greatly to set up ambushes or defend before the marines get there. Drifters cloak once they don't move.

MistenTH · November 2012

It also helps to drop a forward shift or crag, in a safe place if you can, to help skulks or especially gorges keep pressure up. E.g. at a chokepoint an aggressive gorge has set up. 1 shift can let him healspray infinitely and hold that point.

Dropping 1 crag at each hive once lerks or fades are out helps them regen HP much faster and get fighting faster.

Don't go overboard on crags & shifts, but strategic placement, not spam, can help in big ways.

Whips are not early game structures due to their cost. They come later on to deflect grenades (but they need to be mature), or to solidfy your lead if you have one. Putting down 4-5 whips around corners can hold off the marine team for a long time along 1 side of the map, leaving your team free to wreck havoc. But this is only with healthy res flow and not at expense of upgrades.

I've left out the shade for now. It's hard for inexperienced players to use, but silence + strategically placed shade is a real killer. But skulks have to be ultra aggressive in camping near the marine base, rather than in alien territory, to avoid being out-capped.

Xarius · November 2012

I prefer shift + gorge for early forward base over crag + skulks to be honest, a single gorge with a shift and forward eggs can easily hold a corridor or room versus multiple marines. (With the occasional skulk spawning and helping)

TimMc · November 2012

Depends on the map, but this is my general strategy:

- Build 2 harvesters.
- If map is huge, get shift/celerity. Otherwise save.
- Drop hive and get a gorge on it. Tell aliens to keep pressure on marines to keep them distracted.
- Build drifters while hive is going up.
- Instantly research leap.
- Then get carapace.
- If other hive is not shift from before, can debate between shift or shade. Marines are playing defensively, go shade for silence. Otherwise go shift for adrenaline and celerity to enhance map coverage.
- When people are on around 45 res, research blink. Then bile and spores.

After that its just directing aliens to secure third hive point (if not naturally), creating healing stations, shift points to spam eggs in central locations and whips in strategic locations. I am taking harvesters throughout game as I can, but until celerity or leap is up it will be tough to hold too many.

Ness_FrogKing · November 2012

Mist also speeds up maturity, which <i>may</i> be useful for RT's and upgrade chambers, given that maturity increases HP/Armour, which gives your team more time to respond. You don't even need to wait for 100% maturity, either, it scales as maturity % increases.

I just keep forgetting to try it to see if it helps at all early game.

unkind · November 2012

team communication using a mic, tell ppl whats getting attacked, jump out if needed, use spike wall, onos egg before 3rd hive is something i do a lot with my friend, imo it's good most of the time. Take nodes even if they're in the middle of nowhere, marines might never look there, don't do that with hives though.

Chalarie · November 2012

Call me crazy, but here is usually how I play alien khamm...

-Immediately drop 2nd hive and order a gorge to defend (Having the benefits of 2nd hive early is very beneficial IMO)
-Cyst out and grab 2nd harvester from base, then opposite direction (2 harvesters gets enough res flow to grab third in a relatively short amount of time)
-2nd hive completes, go shade first ( Believe me. It is the best tech path IMO. It has no statistical benefits, but silence is extremely effective early game)
-Drop shades around the map, making it easier to expand.
-Evolve leap to benefit skulks greatly (Closing distance is #1 priority as a skulk)
-After gaining more map control, drop third hive, shade it, and let it grow
-Now, I can go either route, usually just depends on what the team wants. I get every upgrade except for camo usually.
-By this point I have way too much res, and evolve all of the rest of the upgrades and spam whips in doorways and around hives. Oh. And onos eggs. Those are fun.

Although different, my strategy is very effective. I stay very very vocal with my team, and encourage players to be vocal as well. I would like to work on using drifters more often, as well as using shifts for eggs.

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