<!--quoteo(post=2006908:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:19 PM:name=Release)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Release @ Nov 2 2012, 06:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I get that, I really do but every server I join people rush to stack marines for this very reason. To play skulk effectively it's obviously better to work in packs but with the lack of communication on pub servers and the fact a lot of people like me are new to the game it's very difficult to coordinate attacks early game. So part of the reason I'm being owned is completely out of my hands. I don't understand why aliens can't have a more resilient combat alien that's a little more simple to use at around the 25-30 resource mark like the marines get shotguns. I realise this would shift the balance of the game but it sure as hell would make it more fun for new players to adjust to the alien mechanics rather than throwing them straight into the very difficult skulk and forcing them to use it for 75% of the game if you want to go out and kill stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See that is just proving you are not understanding.
You ask for a more resilient alien that is easy to use because you cant use skulk. What about those that have taken the time to learn how to use it? What happens when this new lifeform with a huge buff appears and then us experienced players start demolishing Marine players with ease?
As I have said, Skulk is no more difficult than marine it is just that you have had prior practice with marine. Ask your grandmother to play as marine I assure you she will find it just as difficult as you are finding skulk because unlike you she has not had experience with other FPS games. Skulk is 75% of the game and THUS you should learn to use it, you are asking to bypass 75% of alien game-play because you are not willing to learn how to use it? Why even play the game if don't want to learn how to play it?
When you start using alien more and you get your fade/lerk and die with it because you havn't had any practice will you then ask for a more robust lerk/fade because you cannot put in the effort to learn how to use them?
I am sorry if this seems hostile or agressive it is not intended as such.
I hadn't played for a few months, then had the red "disconnect" bug, but my first real game as marines I was thinking, "this is awesome!!!" Then next game I played as alien, and it was very boring. There's not as much teamwork, for whatever reason, and you're not busy building anything, and you have nothing to buy for quite a while. I was very disappointed to see the lerk lose its gas ability on tier one. I suppose there's a balance reason for this, but fun-wise I think it's a bad choice. There's not a huge difference between tier 1 lerk and tier 1 skulk to be honest.
And I wish I enjoyed playing aliens because in NS1 I loved being alien - there was a lot of teamwork and camaraderie right at the start. "Who's saving for hive?", "Who's fading?", "I'll drop so-and-so RT", etc.
<!--quoteo(post=2006919:date=Nov 2 2012, 10:28 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 2 2012, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See that is just proving you are not understanding.
You ask for a more resilient alien that is easy to use because you cant use skulk. What about those that have taken the time to learn how to use it? What happens when this new lifeform with a huge buff appears and then us experienced players start demolishing Marine players with ease?
As I have said, Skulk is no more difficult than marine it is just that you have had prior practice with marine. Ask your grandmother to play as marine I assure you she will find it just as difficult as you are finding skulk because unlike you she has not had experience with other FPS games. Skulk is 75% of the game and THUS you should learn to use it, you are asking to bypass 75% of alien game-play because you are not willing to learn how to use it? Why even play the game if don't want to learn how to play it?
When you start using alien more and you get your fade/lerk and die with it because you havn't had any practice will you then ask for a more robust lerk/fade because you cannot put in the effort to learn how to use them?
I am sorry if this seems hostile or agressive it is not intended as such.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No that wasn't my point at all, I'm asking for an Alternative Some of the time to skulk. As I said at 30 resources it's not like you could insta spawn it everytime. You would still need to develop your skulk skills particularly at the start when speed is so important. I wasn't asking for some sort of uber alien to replace the skulk but maybe an alien more focused on shooting? Or something slower but more tankier than the skulk? Also when aliens are losing what do you do? You play skulk with no upgrades and try to attack marines with exo suits and GL's and more often than not just die over and over and over again. You had the luxury of learning the skulk during the beta and I fully intend to learn the skulk properly myself because I enjoy the game and loved NS 1 but I still think the skulk and the way your forced to use it a hell of a lot of the time is poor design. The result of this being a lot of new players are stacking marines which makes it rare currently to get a fair balanced game.
<!--quoteo(post=2006811:date=Nov 2 2012, 05:14 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 2 2012, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006811"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly... Ceiling for aliens imo is much higher than marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason I say it has a low ceiling is specifically because of the skulk.
Leap no longer does any damage (I was literally angry when I figured this out).
Focus is gone and never returning, so skulk TTK against a marine does nothing but gets higher and higher as marines get armor upgrades, and aliens have nothing to counter it.
This means that the pinnacle of skulk gameplay with the lowest TTK against marines is with A0/W0 marines. As marines tech up, skulks can literally be killed in half second bursts of only about five or six bullets (or at least I've been on that end, I stick my head out to parasite and *thupthupthup* I'm dead). Skulks literally only get worse as the game goes on. Since the only other attack skulks have kills them, this means that there's no opportunity for skulks to really 'get better' as the game goes on. It will always take more and more bits to kill a marine, and marines will always kill you faster and faster.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines = team work + twitch + hop. Aliens = Fade + gorge + onos and all their different aspects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's more teamworky, the team that has two support roles that cost tons of resources to heal, provide area buffs, and area debuffs, or simply standing in a group and shooting at attacking aliens? Like I said, I quit NS1 because 3.0 ruined the gameplay so completely that aliens - originally the 'soloists' - ended up requiring lots of teamwork, with dedicated support roles like the Lerk and Gorge underlining that point. The most teamwork a marine needs is to shove a welder up a guy's bum every now and then. And with MACs that's not even necessary.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why are you trying to solo three Marines?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Strictly speaking aliens will ALWAYS be outnumbered.
8v8. Marines get 1 commander, 7 guys with guns. Aliens get 1 commander, 1 or 2 gorges, 1 lerk, leaving 4 or 5 guys with claws or teeth. Additionally, aliens have absolutely sh*t mobility. Marines get bacon, phase gates, and can torpedo tube through vents with the jetpack. Aliens lost the movement chamber hive teleport, skulks feel slower, blink feels slower, and hivesight is gone and you never know what the hell is going on as an alien. Finally, aliens have to spread out much more since marines can turtle their way to victory, and they can set up sentries all over the place.
First and formost you must balance a game in terms of viable strats and fun.
I mean you could have a game like this where marines have 5 different strats and aliens have 1 strat, and you could still balance it so its 50/50 winrate. but is that right? sure isnt.
There needs to be more strategies that are viable and fun, why else have a commander? why not just have an AI that does the same for both team each time?.
There is needed a lot more work to make NS2 fun, deep and complex game. Its bordering towards broken atm because of marines, they have so many strats, and gimmicky stuff, aliens have nothing, is really boring to play.
If your lucky you get to play maybe 1 or 2 high alien lifeforms in a game.
But marines can get everything, you can easly get 2 exo suits, a shotugn "which you can keep picking up again and again". and if you exo dies, well no problem shotgun + jetpack is more scary than any other combo and is so damn cheap.
Not to mention the insane imbalanced spawn system.
Marine you spawn in 5sec or less then if you buy and exosuit you get it instantly and are ready to go. Alien you spawn it takes ages usually 10-15sec, then you pick mutations then you evolve to ONOS which takes so long i can go the damn bathroom and its still not done evolving.
Not to mention who though it was a good idea to give marines the ability to have phasegates everywhere, so they can instantly defend all parts of the map?.
<!--quoteo(post=2006954:date=Nov 2 2012, 10:47 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006954"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Strictly speaking aliens will ALWAYS be outnumbered.
8v8. Marines get 1 commander, 7 guys with guns. Aliens get 1 commander, 1 or 2 gorges, 1 lerk, leaving 4 or 5 guys with claws or teeth. Additionally, aliens have absolutely sh*t mobility. Marines get bacon, phase gates, and can torpedo tube through vents with the jetpack. Aliens lost the movement chamber hive teleport, skulks feel slower, blink feels slower, and hivesight is gone and you never know what the hell is going on as an alien. Finally, aliens have to spread out much more since marines can turtle their way to victory, and they can set up sentries all over the place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines are outnumbered, actually. The Khammander's role is very passive, so it's entirely possible for him to set everything up, then hop out of the chair while everything is building. The Commander literally can't do anything without the Marines while the Khamm is self-sufficient. This means that the Marines are the ones that have to build and fortify areas while every member of the Alien team can be on the offensive at any given time. Both the Gorge and Khammander hav both more effective and more numerous offensive chambers than the Marines do.
This, in addition to Power Nodes, is why the Alien win rate is almost always higher than the Marine win rate even without widespread abuse of the five minute Onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2006954:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:47 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 06:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006954"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason I say it has a low ceiling is specifically because of the skulk.
Leap no longer does any damage (I was literally angry when I figured this out).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you sir obviously have yet to discover all the tricks to being a skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=2006811:date=Nov 2 2012, 05:14 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 2 2012, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006811"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Leap... no, leap never did any useful dmg. I used to FARM kills with leap in ns1, in order to get ANY kills you had to two bite and then stand ONTOP of the marines head and leap downwards hitting him with the ENTIRE duration of the leap. The damage was totally inconsequential to game play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Focus is gone boo hoo, I want it back for fade as well but lets have less "all is naught" shall we?
The alien starting unit is best at the START of the came? Sacre bleu!!!! Actually no, you are wrong. The Skulk is best the moment Carapace, leap and Celerity are completed. You can survive one shotgun blast TO THE FACE, move stupidly fast and can leap around nom nom'ing stuff.
Skulks are not meant to be tanks at the start of the game, how can you expect them to even be able to get hit at the end of the game? There is a reason that Xenocide is the skulks LATE GAME ability... the devs are trying to tell you something.
And actually no, if you consider lerks and gorges as non combat units you are mistaken sir. Bilebomb is the most IMPORTANT counter to EXO and the Best form of alien offence.
Ontop of this due to the nature of Khammander you spend most of your time outside of the hive and thus Aliens have one extra player than the marines.
Aliens don't have phase gates and cant instantly go to their hive? - Really?... I cant even be bothered getting into this one...
I despair, perhaps some of your comments have some hold but you act so end of the world about it all... Stop being so dramatic... xD
<!--quoteo(post=2006934:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:38 PM:name=Release)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Release @ Nov 2 2012, 06:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No that wasn't my point at all, I'm asking for an Alternative Some of the time to skulk. As I said at 30 resources it's not like you could insta spawn it everytime. You would still need to develop your skulk skills particularly at the start when speed is so important. I wasn't asking for some sort of uber alien to replace the skulk but maybe an alien more focused on shooting? Or something slower but more tankier than the skulk? Also when aliens are losing what do you do? You play skulk with no upgrades and try to attack marines with exo suits and GL's and more often than not just die over and over and over again. You had the luxury of learning the skulk during the beta and I fully intend to learn the skulk properly myself because I enjoy the game and loved NS 1 but I still think the skulk and the way your forced to use it a hell of a lot of the time is poor design. The result of this being a lot of new players are stacking marines which makes it rare currently to get a fair balanced game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerk is 30 res, and has spikes... you seem to be asking for a lerk sir... I will ask the devs if they can put it in the game for you... Ok they said they would add it right away and it should be there when you next launch the game. (I know that was a little mean but you get my point I hope.)
When you are losing the game you are losing the game, what do you do as marines when the entire team are onos and you have no weapon upgrades and no res for a shotgun? You die alot, thats sorta how the game works and you cant expect the devs to balance the starting unit to be able to tackle end game marines... can you? Also if you havn't yet noticed due to Exo's really struggling to shoot their own feet and skulks having VERY high damage output (70dmg vs 81dmg of the fade) they are quiet effective against exos.
the imbalance in pubs comes from how little coordination marines need to be effective compared to aliens. If you're just picking a random direction to go to, chances are youll end up doing something useful as marine but as aliens you can easily waste your time and make yourself useless to your team by being a fail rambo that eats up eggs and increases spawn time or by wasting your time in vents where no one is going
I can't wait for a mod that mimics the NS1 system to come out. Alien commanders are just plain dumb to me. I liked how each race was unique in gameplay. Aliens were more individualistic while still contributing to the team via their roles. One would save for a hive, the others would go gorge, fade, etc. Aliens commanding took that way.
The OP sounds like he would have a lot more fun as a marine. It has complicated tech trees, gives you guns, and gives you more health and armor.
While I'd like to see more flexibility in how aliens can manage their resources, over all it could use minor tweaks. (recycle ability for alien commander.)
If running around biting the heads off marines isn't fun for you, then perhaps aliens are simply not for you. Personally I go aliens every time I'm able. It's different from other FPS games, and that's what I love about it. On top of that, the alien commander is a lot more fun for players that like to build things and aren't into the combat portion as much. The cyst chains are both a liability and a game-changer for aliens, and that alone will keep an alien comm very busy.
In reply to those saying that aliens have crappy mobility, I submit to you a skulk with celerity and leap or a fade with blink. Yeah, they're <i>sooo</i> slow that a typical marine can't even hit them. In most maps you can run from one side to the other in under ten seconds, you just need to know the map. It all comes with practice, and pretty much everyone agrees that the skill cap for aliens is at least a little higher than marines.
If your alien commander is doing their job with cysts, you'll have at least twenty to thirty seconds of warning before they can get a phase gate up in an area with cysts. Infestation is the key. 9 out of 10 times as an alien commander, I'm screaming that the infestation is going down in an unbuilt hive while spamming cysts to keep the green stuff and not a single alien goes in that direction. If the marines get a foothold, it's because the aliens aren't paying attention or are simply outclassed on a player vs. player level. Both of those things result in a fail, but you only really have the ability to mitigate the former.
As for those arguing, aliens clearly have a much lower ceiling. Look at the top players (eagleye etc) they spend far far far more time on marines (and always have) than aliens...
<!--quoteo(post=2007013:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:24 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 2 2012, 07:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The OP sounds like he would have a lot more fun as a marine. It has complicated tech trees, gives you guns, and gives you more health and armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that's the entire point, marines - on paper and in practice - are much more fun. You do more, you have less downtime, you're in the action feeling useful more often, you constantly ride the power curve, you get lots of choices.
Aliens have almost no choices since the abilities are so badly balanced it's the cookie cutter D/M/S from NS1 all over again, complete with Carapace / Celerity build order. Alien power curve dips relative to marines constantly and you usually are playing catchup. You have TONS of downtime since you spend twice as long in spawn and again in an egg, you can't get around to the action quickly...
Aliens have fun moments, I've played mostly aliens so far, but most games are painful, uphill battles against a perpetually-upgraded marine team. And all we get is... silence? Yeah that does a lot of good against the Observatories piled all over the place.
Listen Jester this is a thread about the relative fun factor of aliens NOT the balance. The Lerk is OK at shooting but the spikes are underwhelming so maybe even a slight buff to them would go along way. I played alot of NS1 so while I'm new to this I'm not new to the overall concept. Dieing repeatedly as a marine is not the same. I still feel even with my (probably) upgraded rifle I can still do something and kill things with it or try to pick up another gun even while being trampled by the Onos. Playing as a skulk has none of those things while losing you generally just run in and prey to god one of your bites will kill something before you get shot or blown up.
A while back, it was suggested to change the Lerk spikes to a shotgun. It was extremely well-received and makes a lot more sense than the infinite... bone growing... submachine gun.
<!--quoteo(post=2007021:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:31 PM:name=Release)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Release @ Nov 2 2012, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Lerk is OK at shooting but the spikes are underwhelming so maybe even a slight buff to them would go along way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They were given a slight buff just before release... it went a long way.
<!--quoteo(post=2007030:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:36 PM:name=Volcano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Volcano @ Nov 2 2012, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007030"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->we had shotty lerk for some time but dying in 5 hits from it was a bit much<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 5-hits from what, the spike shotgun?
But it's cool with the devs that Fades with Carapace die in two good hits from a W3 shotgun?
making any dropped marines weapons on alien goo disolve and give the team resources and allowing aliens to carry dropped weapons then to dump them on goo to give the Tres a boost ;p FUNTIMES FARMING!
I think for me the fundamental point is this. I played a lot of counter-strike back in the day and it took me years to get really good at it when I started I often went 3-11 etc and that's absolutely fine BUT I had fun even while learning because I still felt like I could do something and kill people at all stages of the game. I and alot of others aren't asking for an easy mode god alien what we want is to be able to enjoy the game while learning the more difficult mechanics. NS 2 feels like OK so your noob with skulk well you'll be using it most of the time so get better or don't play aliens and for me that sucks.
The biggest problem with aliens is the movement feels muddy and restricted. This is a problem for marines too, but aliens as melee fighters rely solely on movement for fun and skill. Being of quake engine heritage and having many movement options and abilites for each lifeform, playing aliens in NS1 was one of best games to ever create a refined game feel. The first things I would tweak are increase movement acceleration and add better air control.
This video does a good job at explaining how this kinesthetic feedback drives the fun in many games and how many games have started to ignore this: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MrFK4NlGCo0#t=134s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...K4NlGCo0#t=134s</a> Watch from there until the end.
<!--quoteo(post=2006955:date=Nov 2 2012, 11:47 AM:name=RMJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RMJ @ Nov 2 2012, 11:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First and formost you must balance a game in terms of viable strats and fun.
I mean you could have a game like this where marines have 5 different strats and aliens have 1 strat, and you could still balance it so its 50/50 winrate. but is that right? sure isnt.
There needs to be more strategies that are viable and fun, why else have a commander? why not just have an AI that does the same for both team each time?.
There is needed a lot more work to make NS2 fun, deep and complex game. Its bordering towards broken atm because of marines, they have so many strats, and gimmicky stuff, aliens have nothing, is really boring to play.
If your lucky you get to play maybe 1 or 2 high alien lifeforms in a game.
But marines can get everything, you can easly get 2 exo suits, a shotugn "which you can keep picking up again and again". and if you exo dies, well no problem shotgun + jetpack is more scary than any other combo and is so damn cheap.
Not to mention the insane imbalanced spawn system.
Marine you spawn in 5sec or less then if you buy and exosuit you get it instantly and are ready to go. Alien you spawn it takes ages usually 10-15sec, then you pick mutations then you evolve to ONOS which takes so long i can go the damn bathroom and its still not done evolving.
Not to mention who though it was a good idea to give marines the ability to have phasegates everywhere, so they can instantly defend all parts of the map?.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This guy hit it head on. The thread is NOT about "ZOMG ALIENS Underpowered PLEASE BUFF" or "WOW I GET ###### ON AS A SKULK BY 8 BULLETS WHILE I HAVE TO BITE THEM 5 TIMES."
The thread is about the relative funness it is to play Aliens. Yes I know everyone has their own opinions, and yes I know some people are instinctively not going to like it because it is harder. I'd like everyone to put their opinions aside for a moment and take an objective look at the current Alien Tech Structure in comparison to Marines, the current ability of Aliens to spend Rez to become useful in comparison to Marines and the overall time Aliens FEEL useful during the game. Now I know the feeling part is hard not to be subjective about but everyone has to admit you don't FEEL useful waiting 12 seconds to spawn even though you have 26 eggs on the map. I know I don't feel useful when I'm spending 45 seconds walking around the map just so I can get to my other hive that is dying and now eggblocked. I don't feel like I have much power in that moment. Before you say "Aliens are strengths in numbers blah blah blah." Or the time running to harrass RTs, meanwhile marines just pop PG there while you spent 45 seconds walking. (No I don't want a asymetrical game where everyone has teleport but skulks really aren't that fast when compared to sprinting marines and harrassing RTs is a big part of the game for skulks, so when you are walking 45 seconds to get to an RT you feel kind of helpless) But it is pivotal to your teams success, go watch any pro game and I promise you between running back to bases and defending you will see atleast 2 skulks running around just killing RTs. Thats part of the game and I like that, it is what gives map control The other two points are pretty cut and dry. Aliens simply lack a lot of strategic depth that goes into making a fun race. Theirs very few choices the commander can make in terms of tech. (Oh and before you say "but I GO SHADE first and I stomped some PPL cause they never saw it coming,) no, just no. Every single game and I've had atleast 7 of these where my team saw they went shade first we just walked in their base and murdered it. Yes it can work sometimes, no that doesn't make it a viable strat. In SC2 its akin to a cannon rush or a 7 pool, yes it may give you a cheap victory but once its scouted if responded to properly you are boned. Sorry little too ranty there but I think most people understand where I'm coming from when I say Alien Com is kind of lacking in strategic depth. I feel like we are really missing out on something that SHOULD provide so much strategy but really doesn't; infestation. It seems so pivotal to what is supposed to be an organic race of aliens but all it does is let you put structures down. Nothing else.
Lastly the amount of Rez you have to spend to feel useful is far far greater than Marines. Marines biggest tech is Exos which in reality are far from necessary to winning a game, they are nice, they are fun, but you really don't need them. Meanwhile you can get a shotgun for 10 rez, a jetpack for 20 rez, maybe a grenade launcher for 25, hell a welder so you can help your team repair stuff. Each item you buy makes you feel useful. Even when you just spawn with 0 rez you are now 3 3 Marine with a gun that can demolish every Alien but an Onos. You spawn with a sense of usefulness to the team and it cost you 0 rez.
Now before you flame me saying "This games not asymmetrical," I'm not proposing Aliens should get 3 armor 3 attack upgrades or give Aliens phase gates or anything. I'm just pointing out what I feel is a lack of depth for Aliens on a strategic level and on a player's choice level. Thanks for reading. ^^
(Sorry if I got a tad ranty, I only rant cause I'm passionate about this amazing one of a kind game and honestly I don't think its an easy to fix problem just because NO one else has done this kind of game. These devs masterminded something so unique that they really can't look at other sources and say "Well how did other game developers deal with this challenge" the same way that 90% of modern shooters were like "REGENERATING HP!!??!?! Those cod ######s are genius LETS ALL DO IT!" :P )
<!--quoteo(post=2007078:date=Nov 2 2012, 01:04 PM:name=Pyromaniac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pyromaniac @ Nov 2 2012, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The biggest problem with aliens is the movement feels muddy and restricted. This is a problem for marines too, but aliens as melee fighters rely solely on movement for fun and skill. Being of quake engine heritage and having many movement options and abilites for each lifeform, playing aliens in NS1 was one of best games to ever create a refined game feel. The first things I would tweak are increase movement acceleration and add better air control.
This video does a good job at explaining how this kinesthetic feedback drives the fun in many games and how many games have started to ignore this: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MrFK4NlGCo0#t=134s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...K4NlGCo0#t=134s</a> Watch from there until the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, although the main joy in NS1 was creaping around and getting the jump on the Marines. Plus the fluid movements.
Reminds me of the recent Extra Credits episode on designing for the Aesthetics of the game then using the technical mechanics to reinforce it.
<!--quoteo(post=2007078:date=Nov 2 2012, 08:04 PM:name=Pyromaniac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pyromaniac @ Nov 2 2012, 08:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The biggest problem with aliens is the movement feels muddy and restricted. This is a problem for marines too, but aliens as melee fighters rely solely on movement for fun and skill. Being of quake engine heritage and having many movement options and abilites for each lifeform, playing aliens in NS1 was one of best games to ever create a refined game feel. The first things I would tweak are increase movement acceleration and add better air control.
This video does a good job at explaining how this kinesthetic feedback drives the fun in many games and how many games have started to ignore this: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MrFK4NlGCo0#t=134s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...K4NlGCo0#t=134s</a> Watch from there until the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The skulks movement is the worst. Leap covers barely any more distance than a wall jump. Even with a walljump, you have so much air friction, you just hit an invisible wall and lose all your speed and fall to the ground. Leap is so underwhelming it can't even reach jetpackers in your average room.
<!--quoteo(post=2007019:date=Nov 2 2012, 12:28 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that's the entire point, marines - on paper and in practice - are much more fun. You do more, you have less downtime, you're in the action feeling useful more often, you constantly ride the power curve, you get lots of choices.
Aliens have almost no choices since the abilities are so badly balanced it's the cookie cutter D/M/S from NS1 all over again, complete with Carapace / Celerity build order. Alien power curve dips relative to marines constantly and you usually are playing catchup. You have TONS of downtime since you spend twice as long in spawn and again in an egg, you can't get around to the action quickly...
Aliens have fun moments, I've played mostly aliens so far, but most games are painful, uphill battles against a perpetually-upgraded marine team. And all we get is... silence? Yeah that does a lot of good against the Observatories piled all over the place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you, you made a very good point that I missed, the feeling of playing "Catch-up." I think that is one of the most frustrating things about Aliens is knowing that every minute that goes by Marines are getting exponentially stronger while, to be honest, the upgrades Aliens receive feel inconsequential. Celerity only gives you movement out of combat so I guess you have less wait time while running around however you gain nothing beneficial in combat. In addition the armor upgrade with carapace on a skulk gives you I think an extra 5 bullets you can take from a marine rifle ? You rely so heavily on that first Onos or a couple fades that you are just praying to get to that point while defending two hives if the Marine team is pushing competently with phases / ect. Meanwhile the time between what I'd consider Early / Mid game (Pre-Onos, with possible 2 fades with blink) Aliens are very limited.
Half the marines just rack up 35-40:2 KDRs because shotguns kill everything so fast, jetpacks make them impossible to attack, aliens have absolutely nothing beyond Hive 2 to look forward to.
The marines eventually just splatter aliens so fast with so little aliens can actually do about it that people stop having fun and simply leave. It still takes about 10 minutes for the game to end. Go into the Readyroom and there's two people standing in the Marine doorway.
<!--quoteo(post=2007296:date=Nov 2 2012, 10:27 PM:name=Goden)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Goden @ Nov 2 2012, 10:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tired of playing on a team which is catastrophically underpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm moving so that'll give them a few months to sort out their sh*t during which I won't be playing, but I'm in the same boat. Probably not playing Alien anymore.
I only just learned that Celerity doesn't even work when you attack.
Seriously?
<b>SERIOUSLY?</b>
It's like the devs just had a massive hardon for the marines. Aliens take MUCH more skill and coordination to play, and the best that they get out of it is a slight advantage in a few places. One team shouldn't have to naturally OUTPLAY the other just to fight on even ground. People say players are stacking Marines because they're "more familiar" with it. I call bull######. Phase shifting around as a Fade is one of the most fun things ever, but by the time I get to do it, my Fade is dangerously close to being obsolete. I think people are stacking marines because the marines are more fun in every way.
People in FPS games will stack the winning team because losing isn't fun. People stack marines because more often than not you're going to be stomping the aliens, playing with all kinds of toys, and feel awesome while winning. Aliens, if you lose, you're going to be spending almost all your time looking at the spawn screen.
I guess we'll see what they do - if they do anything. Their track record on listening to the community isn't exactly an established "thing".
<!--quoteo(post=2007304:date=Nov 2 2012, 03:36 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 03:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007304"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I only just learned that Celerity doesn't even work when you attack.
Its kind of a moot upgrade unless all you do is run around the map chomping rez nodes and avoiding Marines. Which only one/two people should do at any given time or else you completely forfeit to their push.
Comments
See that is just proving you are not understanding.
You ask for a more resilient alien that is easy to use because you cant use skulk.
What about those that have taken the time to learn how to use it? What happens
when this new lifeform with a huge buff appears and then us experienced players start demolishing
Marine players with ease?
As I have said, Skulk is no more difficult than marine it is just that you have had prior practice with marine. Ask your grandmother to play as marine I assure you she will find it just as difficult as you are finding skulk because unlike you she has not had experience with other FPS games. Skulk is 75% of the game and THUS you should learn to use it, you are asking to bypass 75% of alien game-play because you are not willing to learn how to use it? Why even play the game if don't want to learn how to play it?
When you start using alien more and you get your fade/lerk and die with it because you havn't had any practice will you then ask for a more robust lerk/fade because you cannot put in the effort to learn how to use them?
I am sorry if this seems hostile or agressive it is not intended as such.
And I wish I enjoyed playing aliens because in NS1 I loved being alien - there was a lot of teamwork and camaraderie right at the start. "Who's saving for hive?", "Who's fading?", "I'll drop so-and-so RT", etc.
You ask for a more resilient alien that is easy to use because you cant use skulk.
What about those that have taken the time to learn how to use it? What happens
when this new lifeform with a huge buff appears and then us experienced players start demolishing
Marine players with ease?
As I have said, Skulk is no more difficult than marine it is just that you have had prior practice with marine. Ask your grandmother to play as marine I assure you she will find it just as difficult as you are finding skulk because unlike you she has not had experience with other FPS games. Skulk is 75% of the game and THUS you should learn to use it, you are asking to bypass 75% of alien game-play because you are not willing to learn how to use it? Why even play the game if don't want to learn how to play it?
When you start using alien more and you get your fade/lerk and die with it because you havn't had any practice will you then ask for a more robust lerk/fade because you cannot put in the effort to learn how to use them?
I am sorry if this seems hostile or agressive it is not intended as such.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No that wasn't my point at all, I'm asking for an Alternative Some of the time to skulk. As I said at 30 resources it's not like you could insta spawn it everytime. You would still need to develop your skulk skills particularly at the start when speed is so important. I wasn't asking for some sort of uber alien to replace the skulk but maybe an alien more focused on shooting? Or something slower but more tankier than the skulk? Also when aliens are losing what do you do? You play skulk with no upgrades and try to attack marines with exo suits and GL's and more often than not just die over and over and over again. You had the luxury of learning the skulk during the beta and I fully intend to learn the skulk properly myself because I enjoy the game and loved NS 1 but I still think the skulk and the way your forced to use it a hell of a lot of the time is poor design. The result of this being a lot of new players are stacking marines which makes it rare currently to get a fair balanced game.
The reason I say it has a low ceiling is specifically because of the skulk.
Leap no longer does any damage (I was literally angry when I figured this out).
Focus is gone and never returning, so skulk TTK against a marine does nothing but gets higher and higher as marines get armor upgrades, and aliens have nothing to counter it.
This means that the pinnacle of skulk gameplay with the lowest TTK against marines is with A0/W0 marines. As marines tech up, skulks can literally be killed in half second bursts of only about five or six bullets (or at least I've been on that end, I stick my head out to parasite and *thupthupthup* I'm dead). Skulks literally only get worse as the game goes on. Since the only other attack skulks have kills them, this means that there's no opportunity for skulks to really 'get better' as the game goes on. It will always take more and more bits to kill a marine, and marines will always kill you faster and faster.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines = team work + twitch + hop.
Aliens = Fade + gorge + onos and all their different aspects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's more teamworky, the team that has two support roles that cost tons of resources to heal, provide area buffs, and area debuffs, or simply standing in a group and shooting at attacking aliens? Like I said, I quit NS1 because 3.0 ruined the gameplay so completely that aliens - originally the 'soloists' - ended up requiring lots of teamwork, with dedicated support roles like the Lerk and Gorge underlining that point. The most teamwork a marine needs is to shove a welder up a guy's bum every now and then. And with MACs that's not even necessary.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why are you trying to solo three Marines?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Strictly speaking aliens will ALWAYS be outnumbered.
8v8. Marines get 1 commander, 7 guys with guns. Aliens get 1 commander, 1 or 2 gorges, 1 lerk, leaving 4 or 5 guys with claws or teeth. Additionally, aliens have absolutely sh*t mobility. Marines get bacon, phase gates, and can torpedo tube through vents with the jetpack. Aliens lost the movement chamber hive teleport, skulks feel slower, blink feels slower, and hivesight is gone and you never know what the hell is going on as an alien. Finally, aliens have to spread out much more since marines can turtle their way to victory, and they can set up sentries all over the place.
I mean you could have a game like this where marines have 5 different strats and aliens have 1 strat, and you could still balance it so its 50/50 winrate. but is that right? sure isnt.
There needs to be more strategies that are viable and fun, why else have a commander? why not just have an AI that does the same for both team each time?.
There is needed a lot more work to make NS2 fun, deep and complex game. Its bordering towards broken atm because of marines, they have so many strats, and gimmicky stuff, aliens have nothing, is really boring to play.
If your lucky you get to play maybe 1 or 2 high alien lifeforms in a game.
But marines can get everything, you can easly get 2 exo suits, a shotugn "which you can keep picking up again and again". and if you exo dies, well no problem shotgun + jetpack is more scary than any other combo and is so damn cheap.
Not to mention the insane imbalanced spawn system.
Marine you spawn in 5sec or less then if you buy and exosuit you get it instantly and are ready to go.
Alien you spawn it takes ages usually 10-15sec, then you pick mutations then you evolve to ONOS which takes so long i can go the damn bathroom and its still not done evolving.
Not to mention who though it was a good idea to give marines the ability to have phasegates everywhere, so they can instantly defend all parts of the map?.
8v8. Marines get 1 commander, 7 guys with guns. Aliens get 1 commander, 1 or 2 gorges, 1 lerk, leaving 4 or 5 guys with claws or teeth. Additionally, aliens have absolutely sh*t mobility. Marines get bacon, phase gates, and can torpedo tube through vents with the jetpack. Aliens lost the movement chamber hive teleport, skulks feel slower, blink feels slower, and hivesight is gone and you never know what the hell is going on as an alien. Finally, aliens have to spread out much more since marines can turtle their way to victory, and they can set up sentries all over the place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines are outnumbered, actually. The Khammander's role is very passive, so it's entirely possible for him to set everything up, then hop out of the chair while everything is building. The Commander literally can't do anything without the Marines while the Khamm is self-sufficient. This means that the Marines are the ones that have to build and fortify areas while every member of the Alien team can be on the offensive at any given time. Both the Gorge and Khammander hav both more effective and more numerous offensive chambers than the Marines do.
This, in addition to Power Nodes, is why the Alien win rate is almost always higher than the Marine win rate even without widespread abuse of the five minute Onos.
Leap no longer does any damage (I was literally angry when I figured this out).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you sir obviously have yet to discover all the tricks to being a skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=2006811:date=Nov 2 2012, 05:14 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 2 2012, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006811"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Leap... no, leap never did any useful dmg.
I used to FARM kills with leap in ns1, in order to get ANY kills you had to two bite and then stand ONTOP of the marines head and leap downwards hitting him with the ENTIRE duration of the leap. The damage was totally inconsequential to game play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2006954:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:47 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 06:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006954"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Rest<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Focus is gone boo hoo, I want it back for fade as well but lets have less "all is naught" shall we?
The alien starting unit is best at the START of the came? Sacre bleu!!!!
Actually no, you are wrong. The Skulk is best the moment Carapace, leap and Celerity are completed.
You can survive one shotgun blast TO THE FACE, move stupidly fast and can leap around nom nom'ing stuff.
Skulks are not meant to be tanks at the start of the game, how can you expect them to even be able to get hit at the end of the game?
There is a reason that Xenocide is the skulks LATE GAME ability... the devs are trying to tell you something.
And actually no, if you consider lerks and gorges as non combat units you are mistaken sir.
Bilebomb is the most IMPORTANT counter to EXO and the Best form of alien offence.
Ontop of this due to the nature of Khammander you spend most of your time outside of the hive and thus Aliens have one extra player than the marines.
Aliens don't have phase gates and cant instantly go to their hive? - Really?... I cant even be bothered getting into this one...
I despair, perhaps some of your comments have some hold but you act so end of the world about it all...
Stop being so dramatic... xD
<!--quoteo(post=2006934:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:38 PM:name=Release)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Release @ Nov 2 2012, 06:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No that wasn't my point at all, I'm asking for an Alternative Some of the time to skulk. As I said at 30 resources it's not like you could insta spawn it everytime. You would still need to develop your skulk skills particularly at the start when speed is so important. I wasn't asking for some sort of uber alien to replace the skulk but maybe an alien more focused on shooting? Or something slower but more tankier than the skulk? Also when aliens are losing what do you do? You play skulk with no upgrades and try to attack marines with exo suits and GL's and more often than not just die over and over and over again. You had the luxury of learning the skulk during the beta and I fully intend to learn the skulk properly myself because I enjoy the game and loved NS 1 but I still think the skulk and the way your forced to use it a hell of a lot of the time is poor design. The result of this being a lot of new players are stacking marines which makes it rare currently to get a fair balanced game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerk is 30 res, and has spikes... you seem to be asking for a lerk sir... I will ask the devs if they can put it in the game for you...
Ok they said they would add it right away and it should be there when you next launch the game. (I know that was a little mean but you get my point I hope.)
When you are losing the game you are losing the game, what do you do as marines when the entire team are onos and you have no weapon upgrades and no res for a shotgun? You die alot, thats sorta how the game works and you cant expect the devs to balance the starting unit to be able to tackle end game marines... can you?
Also if you havn't yet noticed due to Exo's really struggling to shoot their own feet and skulks having VERY high damage output (70dmg vs 81dmg of the fade) they are quiet effective against exos.
While I'd like to see more flexibility in how aliens can manage their resources, over all it could use minor tweaks. (recycle ability for alien commander.)
If running around biting the heads off marines isn't fun for you, then perhaps aliens are simply not for you. Personally I go aliens every time I'm able. It's different from other FPS games, and that's what I love about it. On top of that, the alien commander is a lot more fun for players that like to build things and aren't into the combat portion as much. The cyst chains are both a liability and a game-changer for aliens, and that alone will keep an alien comm very busy.
In reply to those saying that aliens have crappy mobility, I submit to you a skulk with celerity and leap or a fade with blink. Yeah, they're <i>sooo</i> slow that a typical marine can't even hit them. In most maps you can run from one side to the other in under ten seconds, you just need to know the map. It all comes with practice, and pretty much everyone agrees that the skill cap for aliens is at least a little higher than marines.
If your alien commander is doing their job with cysts, you'll have at least twenty to thirty seconds of warning before they can get a phase gate up in an area with cysts. Infestation is the key. 9 out of 10 times as an alien commander, I'm screaming that the infestation is going down in an unbuilt hive while spamming cysts to keep the green stuff and not a single alien goes in that direction. If the marines get a foothold, it's because the aliens aren't paying attention or are simply outclassed on a player vs. player level. Both of those things result in a fail, but you only really have the ability to mitigate the former.
I think that's the entire point, marines - on paper and in practice - are much more fun. You do more, you have less downtime, you're in the action feeling useful more often, you constantly ride the power curve, you get lots of choices.
Aliens have almost no choices since the abilities are so badly balanced it's the cookie cutter D/M/S from NS1 all over again, complete with Carapace / Celerity build order. Alien power curve dips relative to marines constantly and you usually are playing catchup. You have TONS of downtime since you spend twice as long in spawn and again in an egg, you can't get around to the action quickly...
Aliens have fun moments, I've played mostly aliens so far, but most games are painful, uphill battles against a perpetually-upgraded marine team. And all we get is... silence? Yeah that does a lot of good against the Observatories piled all over the place.
I'd love to know why that was passed over...
They were given a slight buff just before release... it went a long way.
5-hits from what, the spike shotgun?
But it's cool with the devs that Fades with Carapace die in two good hits from a W3 shotgun?
This video does a good job at explaining how this kinesthetic feedback drives the fun in many games and how many games have started to ignore this:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MrFK4NlGCo0#t=134s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...K4NlGCo0#t=134s</a>
Watch from there until the end.
I mean you could have a game like this where marines have 5 different strats and aliens have 1 strat, and you could still balance it so its 50/50 winrate. but is that right? sure isnt.
There needs to be more strategies that are viable and fun, why else have a commander? why not just have an AI that does the same for both team each time?.
There is needed a lot more work to make NS2 fun, deep and complex game. Its bordering towards broken atm because of marines, they have so many strats, and gimmicky stuff, aliens have nothing, is really boring to play.
If your lucky you get to play maybe 1 or 2 high alien lifeforms in a game.
But marines can get everything, you can easly get 2 exo suits, a shotugn "which you can keep picking up again and again". and if you exo dies, well no problem shotgun + jetpack is more scary than any other combo and is so damn cheap.
Not to mention the insane imbalanced spawn system.
Marine you spawn in 5sec or less then if you buy and exosuit you get it instantly and are ready to go.
Alien you spawn it takes ages usually 10-15sec, then you pick mutations then you evolve to ONOS which takes so long i can go the damn bathroom and its still not done evolving.
Not to mention who though it was a good idea to give marines the ability to have phasegates everywhere, so they can instantly defend all parts of the map?.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This guy hit it head on. The thread is NOT about "ZOMG ALIENS Underpowered PLEASE BUFF" or "WOW I GET ###### ON AS A SKULK BY 8 BULLETS WHILE I HAVE TO BITE THEM 5 TIMES."
The thread is about the relative funness it is to play Aliens. Yes I know everyone has their own opinions, and yes I know some people are instinctively not going to like it because it is harder. I'd like everyone to put their opinions aside for a moment and take an objective look at the current Alien Tech Structure in comparison to Marines, the current ability of Aliens to spend Rez to become useful in comparison to Marines and the overall time Aliens FEEL useful during the game. Now I know the feeling part is hard not to be subjective about but everyone has to admit you don't FEEL useful waiting 12 seconds to spawn even though you have 26 eggs on the map. I know I don't feel useful when I'm spending 45 seconds walking around the map just so I can get to my other hive that is dying and now eggblocked. I don't feel like I have much power in that moment. Before you say "Aliens are strengths in numbers blah blah blah." Or the time running to harrass RTs, meanwhile marines just pop PG there while you spent 45 seconds walking. (No I don't want a asymetrical game where everyone has teleport but skulks really aren't that fast when compared to sprinting marines and harrassing RTs is a big part of the game for skulks, so when you are walking 45 seconds to get to an RT you feel kind of helpless) But it is pivotal to your teams success, go watch any pro game and I promise you between running back to bases and defending you will see atleast 2 skulks running around just killing RTs. Thats part of the game and I like that, it is what gives map control The other two points are pretty cut and dry. Aliens simply lack a lot of strategic depth that goes into making a fun race. Theirs very few choices the commander can make in terms of tech. (Oh and before you say "but I GO SHADE first and I stomped some PPL cause they never saw it coming,) no, just no. Every single game and I've had atleast 7 of these where my team saw they went shade first we just walked in their base and murdered it. Yes it can work sometimes, no that doesn't make it a viable strat. In SC2 its akin to a cannon rush or a 7 pool, yes it may give you a cheap victory but once its scouted if responded to properly you are boned. Sorry little too ranty there but I think most people understand where I'm coming from when I say Alien Com is kind of lacking in strategic depth. I feel like we are really missing out on something that SHOULD provide so much strategy but really doesn't; infestation. It seems so pivotal to what is supposed to be an organic race of aliens but all it does is let you put structures down. Nothing else.
Lastly the amount of Rez you have to spend to feel useful is far far greater than Marines. Marines biggest tech is Exos which in reality are far from necessary to winning a game, they are nice, they are fun, but you really don't need them. Meanwhile you can get a shotgun for 10 rez, a jetpack for 20 rez, maybe a grenade launcher for 25, hell a welder so you can help your team repair stuff. Each item you buy makes you feel useful. Even when you just spawn with 0 rez you are now 3 3 Marine with a gun that can demolish every Alien but an Onos. You spawn with a sense of usefulness to the team and it cost you 0 rez.
Now before you flame me saying "This games not asymmetrical," I'm not proposing Aliens should get 3 armor 3 attack upgrades or give Aliens phase gates or anything. I'm just pointing out what I feel is a lack of depth for Aliens on a strategic level and on a player's choice level. Thanks for reading. ^^
(Sorry if I got a tad ranty, I only rant cause I'm passionate about this amazing one of a kind game and honestly I don't think its an easy to fix problem just because NO one else has done this kind of game. These devs masterminded something so unique that they really can't look at other sources and say "Well how did other game developers deal with this challenge" the same way that 90% of modern shooters were like "REGENERATING HP!!??!?! Those cod ######s are genius LETS ALL DO IT!" :P )
This video does a good job at explaining how this kinesthetic feedback drives the fun in many games and how many games have started to ignore this:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MrFK4NlGCo0#t=134s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...K4NlGCo0#t=134s</a>
Watch from there until the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, although the main joy in NS1 was creaping around and getting the jump on the Marines. Plus the fluid movements.
Reminds me of the recent Extra Credits episode on designing for the Aesthetics of the game then using the technical mechanics to reinforce it.
This video does a good job at explaining how this kinesthetic feedback drives the fun in many games and how many games have started to ignore this:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MrFK4NlGCo0#t=134s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...K4NlGCo0#t=134s</a>
Watch from there until the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The skulks movement is the worst. Leap covers barely any more distance than a wall jump. Even with a walljump, you have so much air friction, you just hit an invisible wall and lose all your speed and fall to the ground. Leap is so underwhelming it can't even reach jetpackers in your average room.
The times when you actually find a place to roost, any res nodes / likely phase/forward base locations are to far away ...
Aliens have almost no choices since the abilities are so badly balanced it's the cookie cutter D/M/S from NS1 all over again, complete with Carapace / Celerity build order. Alien power curve dips relative to marines constantly and you usually are playing catchup. You have TONS of downtime since you spend twice as long in spawn and again in an egg, you can't get around to the action quickly...
Aliens have fun moments, I've played mostly aliens so far, but most games are painful, uphill battles against a perpetually-upgraded marine team. And all we get is... silence? Yeah that does a lot of good against the Observatories piled all over the place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you, you made a very good point that I missed, the feeling of playing "Catch-up." I think that is one of the most frustrating things about Aliens is knowing that every minute that goes by Marines are getting exponentially stronger while, to be honest, the upgrades Aliens receive feel inconsequential. Celerity only gives you movement out of combat so I guess you have less wait time while running around however you gain nothing beneficial in combat. In addition the armor upgrade with carapace on a skulk gives you I think an extra 5 bullets you can take from a marine rifle ? You rely so heavily on that first Onos or a couple fades that you are just praying to get to that point while defending two hives if the Marine team is pushing competently with phases / ect. Meanwhile the time between what I'd consider Early / Mid game (Pre-Onos, with possible 2 fades with blink) Aliens are very limited.
Tired of playing on a team which is catastrophically underpowered.
How most of my games as Aliens have ended.
Half the marines just rack up 35-40:2 KDRs because shotguns kill everything so fast, jetpacks make them impossible to attack, aliens have absolutely nothing beyond Hive 2 to look forward to.
The marines eventually just splatter aliens so fast with so little aliens can actually do about it that people stop having fun and simply leave. It still takes about 10 minutes for the game to end. Go into the Readyroom and there's two people standing in the Marine doorway.
I'm moving so that'll give them a few months to sort out their sh*t during which I won't be playing, but I'm in the same boat. Probably not playing Alien anymore.
I only just learned that Celerity doesn't even work when you attack.
Seriously?
<b>SERIOUSLY?</b>
It's like the devs just had a massive hardon for the marines. Aliens take MUCH more skill and coordination to play, and the best that they get out of it is a slight advantage in a few places. One team shouldn't have to naturally OUTPLAY the other just to fight on even ground. People say players are stacking Marines because they're "more familiar" with it. I call bull######. Phase shifting around as a Fade is one of the most fun things ever, but by the time I get to do it, my Fade is dangerously close to being obsolete. I think people are stacking marines because the marines are more fun in every way.
People in FPS games will stack the winning team because losing isn't fun. People stack marines because more often than not you're going to be stomping the aliens, playing with all kinds of toys, and feel awesome while winning. Aliens, if you lose, you're going to be spending almost all your time looking at the spawn screen.
I guess we'll see what they do - if they do anything. Their track record on listening to the community isn't exactly an established "thing".
Seriously?
<b>SERIOUSLY?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its kind of a moot upgrade unless all you do is run around the map chomping rez nodes and avoiding Marines. Which only one/two people should do at any given time or else you completely forfeit to their push.