Lets Talk MOAR about GL, Whips, and Flamethrower!

MaximumSquid · November 2012

These are very loosely researched and bought

Of the 3 I'd say that GL probably still gets the most play, but you will not be seeing them while I'm commanding

Here's the issue with GL
Below is some interesting information about Killing Hives:

Weapon: Hive Solo / +3 Burst %
Shottie: 1:30 / 20%
GL: 1:40 / 12%
Flame: 0:45 / 17%
LMG: 1:35 / 6%
Pistol: 2:20 /
Axe: 1:28
Exo: 0:45 / 22%
Exo+Fist: 0.28 /
2xExo: 0.23 / 42%

So you notice that GL is not only slower at killing a hive than Shottie, but has a far worse burst
It would take 8 Marines with GL to fire off a full clip to kill a hive while I could do the same job with 5 marines with Shottie

Wow that is awful. . .
And remember I had to have to pay 45 more res and wait a good 3 minutes for those GLs
For 45 res I'd rather research Shottie and <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xusq9i_ns-2-summit-sentries-in-flight-control-hive_videogames" target="_blank">drop a sentry nest in the hive</a>

GL is a higher tier / more expensive than a Shotgun, requires escorts <i>(so maybe 1/3rd of your team can use them safely at one time)</i>, and can kill you instantly if you get whip reflected or bone walled. . . <u>It needs to have better DPS and Burst damage</u>

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Also why don't we roll right into whips. . .

I recently tested out Whips in a <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xutckq_ns-2-build-228-whips-are-poop_videogames" target="_blank">short video</a> and a play-by-play is below:

0:00 - Mature Whips can't attack off of infestation (intended)
0:04 - Bombard blob clips model when attacked
0:15 - You can attack whips with mines
0:30 - 3 Whips guarding a resource tower do nothing
0:50 - Only 1 Whip needed to be killed to axe the node
1:14 - Whips can't deflect nades at close range
1:28 - Whips deflect grenade off wall back into themselves
1:58 - Whips fail to defend structures when not shot at directly
2:10 - A railing screws up the whip reflect
2:33 - Bombard inaccurate and has poor range
3:25 - Bombard too slow to hit moving marines
3:50 - Bombard is non-lethal (intended)
4:25 - Whip reflect finally kills me
5:05 - Whips use weak attack instead of bombard
5:30 - MAC briefly outhealing Whip's melee attack
6:28 - What the hell. . .
6:42 - Whips are moved, but bug out again

You want to lose as aliens?
The secret is whips! They are super expensive; 15 + 15 if you want one with a buggy bombard that doesn't work off infestation, can't kill marines, and has terrible range
You can spend an amazing 110 Res to get a Shift, Echo, 2 Bombard Whips, and a risky Cyst Chain that goes into an unguarded res node
Then the enemy team only needs to <u>rebuild and lose that position 5 or 6 more times</u> and congrats you've gained a res advantage!

Whips need so much work it's disturbing and it's hurting game balance because of how inexpensive and useful sentries are right now

How about this for some ideas:

Reduce max health slightly
Whips are 5 res, but now take up a population slot like Drifters
Mature whips can attack off infestation of once rooted and Mines are buffed to deal heavy damage against structures
Bombard Whips cost 5 to upgrade or cost 10 and are now able to kill marines
Bombard should have no range limit when manually toggled by the commander or when shot at <i>(will retaliate against attackers at any range)</i>
Bombard now will attack and dissolve weapons dropped on the ground when no other enemies or enemy structures are in range

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Lastly Flamethrower

This will be officially the 4th time I've started a major topic about them

I'll just cut to the chase. . . This is what a flamethrower looks like:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILA1ic-Q8_E&t=0m19s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILA1ic-Q8_E&t=0m19s</a>

Notice how it's <u>the most powerful when it's first shot</u>?
This is because the fuel tank is at full pressure. . . some of the fuel won't ignite till later creating a rolling fireball

And in the glorious future of space and nanites we get this:

<a href="http://i50.tinypic.com/nx3ys.png" target="_blank">Missing a Hive at 20 feet away</a>
and. . .
<a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xutead_ns-2-build-228-flamethrower-not-a-cone_videogames" target="_blank">No cone damage and an almost non-existant afterburn in terms of damage</a>

The big problem with #2 is that there it kills any advantage you might yet get with it despite it's low damage

If it had a cone effect a marine could shoot between the legs of several exos and not have to worry about welding them
If the weapon had a rolling burst effect for the initial shot fired after reloading you could cook a res node from 40 feet away and kill all the skulks on it

So once again my suggestions:

Flamethrower comes with only 2 or 3 ammo tanks but are slightly larger
Flamethrower now increases energy gain of aliens but does slightly more damage to compensate
Flamethrower no longer damages armor
Flamethrower will do additional damage to enemies and structures that have lost their armor
Flamethrower damage and range will start off strong, but slowly tapper off as the tank and pressure decreases
An alt fire added to Flamethrower to increase the pressure in the tank with what fuel remains <i>(now we have a space age version!)</i>
Structures and marines covered in bile and/or whip's bombard will now catch fire <i>(no damage to armor so it would only create a blinding effect on exos)</i>
Bile and Bombard balls touched by flamethrower will ignite in air and explode after hitting a target for a larger AoE and conflagration effect
<i>(Now flamethrower is risky like the grenade launcher, but is 100 fold more appealing to the team and user alike)</i>

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Quite a bit there to digest, but it basically is 3 posts in one
I was really, really happy with the balance changes right before release so I wanted to see if we could get the ball rolling on other tech routes and get them up to steam

Also throwing down my 2Â¢ for <u>allowing gliding leaks the ability to cloak with each flap partially removing 50% of it</u>

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SixtyWattMan · November 2012

If you think the time it takes to kill hive is the only way to gauge the usefulness of a marine weapon then you are insane. I think it's pretty much universally accepted that the GL is very overpowered right now.

MaximumSquid · November 2012

<u><b>SixtyWattMan:</b></u>

Armor penetrating explosives dealing less damage than buckshot seems slightly more so, but I'll bite

It's basically the marines only option for AoE damage, but when aliens dig in hard with lots of structures there's often better strategies than trying to brute force your way in

I'm also sick of watching marines lose because a commander got GLs early and too many people buy them at one time with armor1 or 0

Their risk is not worth it and it's the main reason I don't buy them till late game in public matches anymore because I don't want my team to scoop themselves with bad buy decisions

Nades should deal more, should have a shorter fuse, or just be contact grenades with a minimum activation range like a real nade launcher

If a whip bounces one back it should be punishing. . .

<i>Nobody should survive</i>

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|strofix| · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Nov 3 2012, 08:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>It's basically the marines only option for AoE damage</div>

So which weapon kills 3 crags, 3 Hydras, 1 shift, 8 clogs and a truckload of skulks (which all happen to be within a very small area) the fastest? I'll hold my breath while I wait for the results.

I also want to say that earlier today I was utterly amazed by how perfectly a whip was denying my grenade launcher. I'm not saying it was infallible or was <b>too </b>powerful, but it was prefect in the way that it constantly forced me to position myself in highly vulnerable positions in order to get grenades through effective. However I do feel that in the vast majority of cases, whips can be less than ideal for protecting against grenades, which is what I thought one of their primary purposes was. I'll make a suggestion post of a way I thought of to improve its deflection ability.

statikg · November 2012

Maximum squid, I have held my tongue up until now, but since release I have observed you continually making OPs which I believe the majority of the beta testing community will agree with me are, just plain wrong. Please think and read some older posts about the topics you so strongly support.

In this particular case, almost everyone experienced agrees that GLs are bordering on OP, yet you think they need to be buffed due to their single target dps. A weapon which does huge aoe damage, also needs high single target dps? Think about that for a moment.

That said, whips and flamethrowers are definitely weak.

twincannon · November 2012

Firstly, I think it's dumb that GL is the only weapon in the game that has a "hard counter" (or soft, since half the times whips don't really work). There is nothing like this versus aliens, not that there needs to be. Just seems like a silly design quirk I guess. I remember it was put in on a whim because someone whipped up (derp) some LUA code to make whips reflect grenades and it's just been that way ever since... might be time to consider removing it.

Anyway it's not about splash damage or taking out buildings, that's the main problem with the GL. Everything is about killing enemies and locking down spawns, and the GL is awful at this. If you get lucky, you can mid-air a skulk with a grenade, but past that the most you can hope to do is fire grenades at your feet and go jihad mode.

If there are no enemies to defend a base, you don't need a GL to mess it up. Just LMG and axe will do fine. Shotgun is even better at killing enemies, so it's much more preferable to locking down a base and taking out structures. As an added bonus, it even has twice as much ammo as GL, faster reload, and more damage per shot. The thing is a hive/upgrade killing machine, and that's what counts - picking key structures off. NOT splash damage.

I guess I'll give the GL some brownie points for making it easier to find pesky shades, heh. I'd still rather have a shotgun though.

Flamethrower I don't even know what to suggest, it's been useless since it was put into the game... at least give it back it's energy regen drain or something but even that wasn't really enough to make it very appealing.

Robo · November 2012

I agree that the <span style="color:#FF0000">Flamethrower</span> needs some attention.

<span style="color:#FFFFFF"><b>Such as</b></span>

-Cone Attack
<i>*Ability to hit multiple targets that are in close proximity</i>

-Higher burning damage
<i>*50% of damage done over 7 seconds</i>

-Blinding alien vision
<i>*Alien vision gets cleared when swapping back to normal vision or the burning effect wears off</i>

TimMc · November 2012

GLs are borderline OP because the explosion. You clear upgrades, support structures, eggs and spawning aliens. A man with a shotgun, while he will drop the hive faster, will die far before this point when a skulk spawns.

Whips are fairly terrible. However they are good at slowing down marine advances. Place a few near upgrades, near doors, etc and marines will be forced to kill them before getting where they want. In that time, alien players can rush to engage them.
Still, thats not great for 15 res. For 15 res, bombard should be free on maturity. Or better, make them 10 res to build, 10 for bombard - hopefully will see them used earlier in games.

Flamers are a tad weak, but reductions in cost and changes to adrenaline have made them more viable I feel. They were never supposed to be so powerful that everyone used them. If anything, I feel they need more clear role definition and less direct damage.

arnyboy87 · November 2012

really FT's have plenty of use since the adren changes I had it the other day killing fades all day long as I messed with there abilty to blink( most fades will retreat when on fire) ,, also they are a must against lerks(with spores) and currelty the only thing that can deal with spores (and should be the only thing)

Only thing would be to increase the afterburn a bit not too much but enough to make alien take notice

MaximumSquid · November 2012

<u><b>|strofix|:</b></u>

ARC can hit threw walls so might technically be faster depending on the hive and the walk distance for launcher to get into range
I'm not sure if ARCs damage lifeforms anymore though

Might also be less tres

<i>Obviously less pres</i>

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<u><b>statikg:</b></u>

I see them not being worth the tres, pres, and personal risk of carrying one around
They are treated like a Tier 4 weapon because jetpacks are required before some commanders let marines touch them, but get outclasses by T1

What would make much more sense is if they were viable the moment they hit the ground till the end of the game and if I didn't have to worry about the ratio of marines holding launcher vs non-launcher weapons

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<u><b>TimMc:</b></u>

So GL gets the nod when you need to ninja alien upgrades?

Why not just send in 2 marines with LMG and Jetpacks? <i>(5 less pres and will probably get the job done faster since smarter comms spread them out)</i>

Also might not become a suicide mission if you get seen half way to the base

I sure wouldn't want to be the guy holding the GL when a Lerk/Fade spots me

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<u><b>arnyboy87:</b></u>

Why let the fade run?

I think 2 good shots with a shottie still drops a fade

Fades are also dwindle in numbers <i>(sometimes to zero)</i> in late game when FT normally hits the floor because there's zero reason to rush it

IF FT burned off Lerk wings and made them plummit now that would be interesting

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Swiftspear · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Nov 3 2012, 01:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><u><b>SixtyWattMan:</b></u>

Armor penetrating explosives dealing less damage than buckshot seems slightly more so, but I'll bite

It's basically the marines only option for AoE damage, but when aliens dig in hard with lots of structures there's often better strategies than trying to brute force your way in

I'm also sick of watching marines lose because a commander got GLs early and too many people buy them at one time with armor1 or 0

Their risk is not worth it and it's the main reason I don't buy them till late game in public matches anymore because I don't want my team to scoop themselves with bad buy decisions

Nades should deal more, should have a shorter fuse, or just be contact grenades with a minimum activation range like a real nade launcher

If a whip bounces one back it should be punishing. . .

<i>Nobody should survive</i>

-</div>
GL are a side grade weapon. Shotgun is the closest thing to a direct upgrade weapon in NS2. It's not like NS, where an HMG is just better than an LMG in every way. Having 1 GL in group with 3 other marines can make that group as deadly as a group of 8 AR marines, but having 4 GL together is arguably worse than having the 4 marines just stay AR. For the LOVE OF GOD that does not make the GL underpowered, it's not the developers fault if players haven't learned how to not be stupid one week after the release of the game.

For reference: Damage type => structure, does not mean the weapon is designed for killing structures, it means the explosions do 2 times the damage to structures. If a skulk with a tiny hitbox gets hit with GL aoe on the skirt of the AOE range, it still takes 130 damage. It would feel very weird if a direct hit to a structure with a giant hitbox didn't felt equally as powerful as a glancing blow to a fast moving retreating skulk or fade. The GL damage type is so that the GL isn't weaker against structures than an AR is, not so that it's the strongest weapon in the game against structures. At the end of the day, the GL is for clearing the feet of marines of skulks fades and lerks, it isn't meant to be useless against structures, but it's not designed specifically to destroy structures.

tarquinbb · November 2012

it's definitely too early for me to call what's OP/UP, i'm undecided on the weapons in question.

although, you disregard the grenade launcher AoE like nothing. it hits a HUGE area... and a single grenade spammer can almost make a corridor impassible for any alien unit besides onos (which would be heavily battered).

not to mention that when the grenade launcher marine dies, his buddy can pick up the grenade launcher - recycling the resources. or you can even buy a jetpack and speed across the map to get it back yourself.

whips are only a small nuisance, but i don't think they're much worse than sentry turrets. personally i've never had problems with 360 degree sentry coverage, even as a skulk you just rush in and burn down the sentry firing while blindsiding the other 2. it merely slows you down, and makes it extremely risky for you to engage a marine when he's standing in the sentry LoS. whip works the same, a marine won't rush through the door to kill a skulk if there's a whip there.

flamethrowers.... well i hear they counter spores and drain energy, and the damage over time burn is cumulative. but haven't really used it enough to comment. it's fun to use at least.

further note on grenade launchers: earlier on today, as marine, we had a ridiculously good comeback on the mineshaft map. we had an exosuit and 2 x GL + welder + jetpack marines slowly pushing one side while the rest of the team pushed the other side. we were pummeled back by onos 2-3 times, but decimated everything else - and with only the 3 of us we were able to overpower the onos while recycling the grenade launchers. they were getting pummeled in tight corridors by grenades and the exo finished everything off.

MaximumSquid · November 2012

<u><b>Swiftspear:</b></u>

Can I convince you that explosive shotgun shells <i>(basically turns a shottie into a small grenade launcher)</i> are more powerful than buckshot?

If yes then I'm hoping that the much larger round that fits in the nade launcher will also be better

GL blow up on the ground and come into play the same time the enemy could have upgraded flying units

Probably the favorite though is watching a marine hit a Fade center mast with a nade only to get killed moments later because his/her insanely lucky shot on a teleporter wasn't good enough by the devs standards to be counted as a win

Believe me. . . I will never stop complaining about Fades walking away after eating a Nade Headshot

<i>That was one of my first posts on this forum</i>

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tarquinbb · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Nov 3 2012, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><u><b>Swiftspear:</b></u>

Can I convince you that explosive shotgun shells <i>(basically turns a shottie into a small grenade launcher)</i> are more powerful than buckshot?

If yes then I'm hoping that the much larger round that fits in the nade launcher will also be better

GL blow up on the ground and come into play the same time the enemy could have upgraded flying units

Probably the favorite though is watching a marine hit a Fade center mast with a nade only to get killed moments later because his/her insanely lucky shot on a teleporter wasn't good enough by the devs standards to be counted as a win

Believe me. . . I will never stop complaining about Fades walking away after eating a Nade Headshot

<i>That was one of my first posts on this forum</i>

-</div>

you're really gonna pull the 'logic' card in a game where you have teleporters, magically appearing medkits/ammo and err... aliens?

yeah it doesn't make sense that a grenade launcher would deal less damage than shotgun, but if GL was a pure upgrade then who the hell would buy a shotgun?

MaximumSquid · November 2012

<u><b>tarquinbb:</b></u>

People who don't have the money currently for a GL
or
People that don't want to explode when enemy commander bone walls them or die instantly to Fade / Lerk encounters

Right now a marine walks in front of you and gets you killed when your nade bounced off his back <i>(happens all the time)</i>

At least give the thing a modern day primer system that won't activate the nade till it is a safe distance from the marine

If the Dev's wanted to make it space age style you could have the nades sit on the ground until the marine runs a safe distance away before they automatically blow up
<i>(or make GL nades last longer and give it an alt fire to blow up all deployed nades)</i>

You could have that plus contact detonation on enemy lifeforms and structures so you could still point blank murder yourself against a fade in the hopes that another marine nearby can finish him off

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SixtyWattMan · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twincannon @ Nov 3 2012, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008457"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Firstly, I think it's dumb that GL is the only weapon in the game that has a "hard counter" (or soft, since half the times whips don't really work). There is nothing like this versus aliens, not that there needs to be. Just seems like a silly design quirk I guess. I remember it was put in on a whim because someone whipped up (derp) some LUA code to make whips reflect grenades and it's just been that way ever since... might be time to consider removing it.

Anyway it's not about splash damage or taking out buildings, that's the main problem with the GL. Everything is about killing enemies and locking down spawns, and the GL is awful at this. If you get lucky, you can mid-air a skulk with a grenade, but past that the most you can hope to do is fire grenades at your feet and go jihad mode.

If there are no enemies to defend a base, you don't need a GL to mess it up. Just LMG and axe will do fine. Shotgun is even better at killing enemies, so it's much more preferable to locking down a base and taking out structures. As an added bonus, it even has twice as much ammo as GL, faster reload, and more damage per shot. The thing is a hive/upgrade killing machine, and that's what counts - picking key structures off. NOT splash damage.

I guess I'll give the GL some brownie points for making it easier to find pesky shades, heh. I'd still rather have a shotgun though.

Flamethrower I don't even know what to suggest, it's been useless since it was put into the game... at least give it back it's energy regen drain or something but even that wasn't really enough to make it very appealing.</div>

Actually, catching whips on fire will stop them from hitting grenades back or least it used to/was supposed to.

|strofix| · November 2012

I say base a whips potential to knock a grenade back on the time it has to react to the grenade.

Firing grenades in from the furthest corner of the room? Expect 90% of them to be deflected, and a large chunk of them right back at you.
Firing from a medium distance away? Around 50% will be deflected, though very few will be knocked directly back at you.
Firing from just outside of self harm distance? The whip won't have enough time to react to the grenades, and none will be deflected.

Temphage · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twincannon @ Nov 3 2012, 07:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008457"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>There is nothing like this versus aliens, not that there needs to be.</div>

You mean kind of like how the flamethrower straight up removes spores and umbra? And how the Observatory makes a third of the alien tech tree totally useless? Or the weapon upgrades that outpace Carapace?

MaximumSquid · November 2012

<u><b>Temphage:</b></u>

I totally forgot that flame could do that. . .

I guess I'm just too used to watching a guy with a flamethrower get mauled by the first alien to come alone even when he's in a group

<i>The gun is basically a giant neon sign pointing back to the user</i>

Also I am a bit annoyed that Obs makes all hallucinations go poof. . .
Would be much better if they just turned that purple / pink color and still blocked stuff

tarquinbb · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Nov 4 2012, 01:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><u><b>Temphage:</b></u>

I totally forgot that flame could do that. . .

I guess I'm just too used to watching a guy with a flamethrower get mauled by the first alien to come alone even when he's in a group

<i>The gun is basically a giant neon sign pointing back to the user</i>

Also I am a bit annoyed that Obs makes all hallucinations go poof. . .
Would be much better if they just turned that purple / pink color and still blocked stuff</div>

i only played around with hallucinations for a minute or so, but isn't there currently any way to kill hallucinations? i sat about 4 onos hallucinations on a sentry nest and they remained there indefinitely while getting shot.

seriously... i can't believe it comes down to 'marine imba' talk, when it's quite clear that your team is so incredibly bad that you let marines get sentry, armory, phase gate and obs in EVERY ROOM of the entire map.

Lets Talk MOAR about GL, Whips, and Flamethrower!

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