Armouries and Hit and Run
beyond.wudge
Join Date: 2012-10-19 Member: 162731Members
Join Date: 2012-10-19 Member: 162731Members
Recently I was thinking about the prominence of Onos egg drops, especially the 2nd hive -> res -> leap -> res -> cara -> celerity or silence -> onos egg build.
It occurred to me that the Fade and the Lerk are not particularly strong lifeforms. This is because they are mainly about wearing your opponent down. Similarly, parasite and spore seem quite niche. This is because they too were about 'debuffing' your enemy. Until recently I wasn't sure why.
At first I was simply going to suggest that Onos egg drops were too strong. But then I decided to try out more Lerk and Fade play first and new styles of Alien play that hit and run.
But then I noticed this phenomena. Armouries heal marine armour. It then occurred to me why as a Marine comm I always drop armouries. With medpacks I can't restore a Marine to full condition. With 10 res in an armoury though they have free repair, free health and free ammo. They get unlimited resupply for as long as the push and the phase gating continue.
It then dawned on me that Alien hit and run play doesn't really work because the damage is temporary, you can't usually wear your enemy down. Marines near armouries can be ridiculously hard to grind down if wounded men keep running back to heal and such marines are the very ones you'd need to hit and run against.
Most hit and run play is used when you can't stand and fight. When you can't stand and fight is often when they are near armouries. If I blink in, swipe, blink out they will run back from the Marine pack to restore. All I am doing is buying time, not dealing meaningful damage.
The Lerk and Fade aren't weak because they are 'glasshammers' with no health. It's because their hit and run duty only works against unsupported Marines, not a pack of them slamming your hive. These lifeforms can't wear the enemy down enough until a random skulk attack yield kills, they can only buy time for when you get a lifeform that can actually stand and fight long enough to 'kill and run' instead.
Armouries restoring armour are why the Skulk, Gorgehealer and Onos are the strongest choices at the moment. They are what is required for the game that is being played: dealing with the Marine push/siege on the 2nd hive. If the Marines can completely restore their condition so cheaply and easily as to make it routine the other Lifeforms will continue to not pack enough grunt to count.
Yes, I can see the niche uses of spore and Fades for defending certain hives (spore before they walk up the ramp on sub-sector, etc). Of counter-attacks whilst the enemy is setting up their forward base. Of brilliant pushes whilst the marine team is weak. Of how you could soften up the enemy before you attack with exceptional teamwork. Of niche and emergency uses of res that ultimately aren't as useful as surviving until you can drop an Onos instead, for a fraction of the effort.
It occurred to me that the Fade and the Lerk are not particularly strong lifeforms. This is because they are mainly about wearing your opponent down. Similarly, parasite and spore seem quite niche. This is because they too were about 'debuffing' your enemy. Until recently I wasn't sure why.
At first I was simply going to suggest that Onos egg drops were too strong. But then I decided to try out more Lerk and Fade play first and new styles of Alien play that hit and run.
But then I noticed this phenomena. Armouries heal marine armour. It then occurred to me why as a Marine comm I always drop armouries. With medpacks I can't restore a Marine to full condition. With 10 res in an armoury though they have free repair, free health and free ammo. They get unlimited resupply for as long as the push and the phase gating continue.
It then dawned on me that Alien hit and run play doesn't really work because the damage is temporary, you can't usually wear your enemy down. Marines near armouries can be ridiculously hard to grind down if wounded men keep running back to heal and such marines are the very ones you'd need to hit and run against.
Most hit and run play is used when you can't stand and fight. When you can't stand and fight is often when they are near armouries. If I blink in, swipe, blink out they will run back from the Marine pack to restore. All I am doing is buying time, not dealing meaningful damage.
The Lerk and Fade aren't weak because they are 'glasshammers' with no health. It's because their hit and run duty only works against unsupported Marines, not a pack of them slamming your hive. These lifeforms can't wear the enemy down enough until a random skulk attack yield kills, they can only buy time for when you get a lifeform that can actually stand and fight long enough to 'kill and run' instead.
Armouries restoring armour are why the Skulk, Gorgehealer and Onos are the strongest choices at the moment. They are what is required for the game that is being played: dealing with the Marine push/siege on the 2nd hive. If the Marines can completely restore their condition so cheaply and easily as to make it routine the other Lifeforms will continue to not pack enough grunt to count.
Yes, I can see the niche uses of spore and Fades for defending certain hives (spore before they walk up the ramp on sub-sector, etc). Of counter-attacks whilst the enemy is setting up their forward base. Of brilliant pushes whilst the marine team is weak. Of how you could soften up the enemy before you attack with exceptional teamwork. Of niche and emergency uses of res that ultimately aren't as useful as surviving until you can drop an Onos instead, for a fraction of the effort.
Comments
I never understood why amor healing was put back in. It worked fine without it.
I mean the team with most mobility and sentries, it surely isnt to much to ask that they have to use their phasegates to heal.
They also seem to be way to strong those armories, marines just carelessly place them right out in the front of the combat zone, unless ofcourse that is on purpose ?.
agree, but do you recall the hue & cry when it was taken out?
uwe implemented a capacity model to try to keep both sides happy. perhaps that can be tweaked to have armories run out faster.
uwe implemented a capacity model to try to keep both sides happy. perhaps that can be tweaked to have armories run out faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think most people just cried when they saw it in the change log, but then people adapted to it and started to buy welders.
Shouldn't remove parasites.
Shouldn't restore armor.
Ammo and health should be dispensed EXTREMELY slowly. In NS1, the healing armories took ages to heal to full, making it more economical to use a medkit.
Now you can just park an armory outside a hive, have everyone stand next to it, and you've got a human battle station.
The removal of parasite was primarily due to people complaining about having to suicide, which 'wasn't fun'. But was an important delaying game mechanic and inherent risk/reward decision to be made.
Personally, I'd like to see health restoration moved to a separate structure from ammo/weapon dispensing, making forward bases more expensive and less all-in-one, one stop shopping. Likewise, parasite removal be an <i>upgraded</i> and semi-expensive medbay function, to the point where it would primarily be used in the main base (if researched/upgraded at all).
Totally think Armour armor healing = silly.
plus aliens have crags and heal spray which heals both health and armor, heal spray is mobile just like welder but welders only heal armor. lets make heal spray only heal armor and crags only heal health....
I'm just saying. It's not fun. Welding simply isn't enjoyable/convenient.
Altho my problems would be mostly solved by making it so only advanced armories heal armor.
Reducing armory health/armor replenishing rate doesn't work, you'll just end up typing kill in console.
I'm just saying. It's not fun. Welding simply isn't enjoyable/convenient.
Altho my problems would be mostly solved by making it so only advanced armories heal armor.
Reducing armory health/armor replenishing rate doesn't work, you'll just end up typing kill in console.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh no, you won't be able to rambo skulks with a JP/SG. Let me shed a tear for you.
suddenly, everyone was carrying (and using!) welders (or at least one per squad).
then it was removed, the next patch (was it one, or two max). seemed like it wasn't given a long stint anyway.
One idea might be to split the Armory into seperate buildings to reduce its strength. It's only logical for them to give you weapons and armor, but perhaps the marines could buy one of Dell Conagher's designers and put a Dispenser (or, Triage Station) in the battlefield to restore both health and armor (but maybe not ammo)
Then, if a base is lucky enough to be equipped with both, it kind of deserves its strategical advantage. And marines can't sit at both at once.
<!--quoteo(post=2008529:date=Nov 3 2012, 09:35 PM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Nov 3 2012, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never understood why amor healing was put back in. It worked fine without it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There were some very vocal players who couldn't stand the thought of actually having to interact with other players to get welded once in a while, or having to fight without the overwhelming advantage of armor upgrades all the time.
Inexplicably, UWE listened to those players, instead of all the other players who disagreed, and ignored the overwhelming evidence that no-armor-healing worked perfectly fine in NS1.
That said, all-in-1 armouries definitely make marines stronger.
Though they do have an invisible energy capacity of 10 uses, so it does drain very fast if 3 marines are using it.
It's pretty awesome to get 3 spore kills because marines are all humping an armoury that has no energy to dispense medpacks. It's too easy even, because you know where the marines will be.
Who on earth made that complaint? Sounds imaginary.
armory is insanely strong, no doubt. but without those forward armories, you'd get pecked by a skulk on the frontline and be forced to run all the way back to main base to heal... that would be a total ballache.
armory is insanely strong, no doubt. but without those forward armories, you'd get pecked by a skulk on the frontline and be forced to run all the way back to main base to heal... that would be a total ballache.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except the balance is that with regeneration, you don't have carapace. Which is effectively what an armory that doesn't repair armor does - gives you health, but leaves your armor weak.
Medpacks? Welders?
If you're honestly getting chipped by skulks and they're escaping, you deserve to be punished for it.
Although I realize that I'm not the best player around, I can still argue for the idea that Fades and Lerks are what they should be.
What you're doing by attacking a marine base as a lone fade with several of them there, is in my mind a attempt to "brute force" your way through their base.
I think alot of people fall under the dilemma that you have to view the game from a 1v1 perspective. Which if I may so say myself, is something I've seen ALOT of people do and they base their judgements on 1v1 encounters, which is freakin st****.
What happens if you combine a attack on a marine base with a gorge, a couple of skulks, maybe 1 lerk and two fades??
They work very well together and with the right cordination, they can easly overwhelm the marine team defending. Usually you never see a whole marine team defending one base and the only way for them to get to that base in time is through the phase gate, which makes them vulnerable as they step through the gate (aka they're easy targets) -
What I'm trying to say is, with a coordinated alien attack on a marine base is usually effective enough to win, and not go for the typical gamer style "I'll go fade, I'll now attack a marine fortification alone and try and brute force my way through it and when it doesn't work, its obvious that something is wrong with the class"
Now I realize that the scenario of attacking a marine fortification as a team might open up the possibility for a counter attack, which is where the lerks come in. I usually tend to try and patrol the map as a lerk and attack alone marines as they are traveling across the map (aka between bases where there aren't any gates or while they are trying to move in on a alien fortification) and thats where the lerk can really pick off unsuspecting marines, and also fade is really good at this assassin style.
If you encounter a marine team that never go alone and usually tend to pack up together, the counter is to do the same, after all.. it is a TEAM BASED GAME and not "1v1 rambo solo game"
What makes a lerk soo good at patroling a map? its obvious, no one can match their agility and speed as they cross the map in a matter of seconds and if I'm the lerk, and If I'm the guy that spots a group of marines trying a counter-attack, then its easy to call out that they are going for a counter attack. The alien Commander can even make it easier on the team by placing drifters.
Have you ever been a alien commander? Have you ever tried throwing down a enzyme cloud on a group of aliens as they attack a marine fortification?
All the aliens turn in to a pumped up steriod army, usually crushing the marines. The biggest laugh is when you put the cloud on a gorges and watch them use their first spit ability, is hilarious how fast they spit, and now imagine the same effect on a fade or a skulk!
Although grinding down marines while they are in their own marine fortifications alone isn't possible and might be frustrating for some, I belive its better that way, than having the possiblity to do it. If you feel the anxiety of not beeing able to push back the marines on your own, then get your team to help out and ofcourse with a coordinated attack on a group of marines might not always work, it tends to tip the balance very well if the aliens work together as a team. If the alien team refuses to coordinate and do things together, well hell... then it isn't the game balance, then its the dumb players.
I would also like to point out that I'm not trying to make lerks sound like a patrol unit and not very effective in combat. Infact when a alien team attacks together, flying in during the heat of battle and dropping spores all over the place is SUPER effective.
My last two cents are for not trying to balance this game around 1v1 rambo encounters, I rather see the balance around team fights. Thanks for reading my post!
Dis...
Adding armour healing armouries and removing focus = spit in the face of fades.
fine...
crag & gorge & hive & carapace.
i'm not against a change to armory, i just think it's far too early to start making radical changes... especially as most people agree that balance is about right and all available data appears to support that claim.