Disadvantages: Aliens, Marines
Mr.Greedy
Join Date: 2012-07-21 Member: 154270Members
Join Date: 2012-07-21 Member: 154270Members
Cant find any more:
Aliens disadvantages:
- Defense (marines can turteling till christmas)
the opposite :
- Assault (not a big deal for marines to kill the last hive.)
- Aliens do overall lower damage
- melee
- mobility (its all fine if they get hive-teleporting back.)
- cysts
- buildings are more expensive (for exampel : every harvester costs near 15 res because of cysts)
- buildings have lower HP
- buildings need much more time to build.
- weak base-class(skulk)
- weak and expensive buildings repair options(why they cant just regen? They are fu****g lifeforms)
- weak tier 3 (only xenocide,umbra, stomp, vortex, 3. upgrade)
- weak and expensive forwarded bases (crags!)
- more requirements to research all upgrades
- destroyed upgrades must be researched
- destroyed second base locked important upgrades(leap,bile etc.)
- weak commander-support options (spikes and buildings-abilitys works only on infestation.Exept: drifters. Marines medpack/ammo/nano should be disabled on infestation)
- long respawntime
- change class or upgrades takes time
Marines disadvantages
- power nodes
- weak scouting
- ammo
- weak infight mobility(or just late infightmobility. [jetpacks])
I am right/wrong?
Aliens disadvantages:
- Defense (marines can turteling till christmas)
the opposite :
- Assault (not a big deal for marines to kill the last hive.)
- Aliens do overall lower damage
- melee
- mobility (its all fine if they get hive-teleporting back.)
- cysts
- buildings are more expensive (for exampel : every harvester costs near 15 res because of cysts)
- buildings have lower HP
- buildings need much more time to build.
- weak base-class(skulk)
- weak and expensive buildings repair options(why they cant just regen? They are fu****g lifeforms)
- weak tier 3 (only xenocide,umbra, stomp, vortex, 3. upgrade)
- weak and expensive forwarded bases (crags!)
- more requirements to research all upgrades
- destroyed upgrades must be researched
- destroyed second base locked important upgrades(leap,bile etc.)
- weak commander-support options (spikes and buildings-abilitys works only on infestation.Exept: drifters. Marines medpack/ammo/nano should be disabled on infestation)
- long respawntime
- change class or upgrades takes time
Marines disadvantages
- power nodes
- weak scouting
- ammo
- weak infight mobility(or just late infightmobility. [jetpacks])
I am right/wrong?
Comments
Observatory
I'm with the 'aliens aren't much fun' people. Aliens don't have anything that's very fun, creative, or unique besides Fade shadowstep. You 'evolve' and you just get a bit faster running or damage absorption and that's it. For NS1 this was cool because it was NS1 and that was a decade ago. For NS2, it's just... uninspired. Parasite just marks a guy and that's it... and it's even removed by armories now. You can't evolve improvements to it to make it act differently and catch marines off-guard. It always feels like aliens are playing catch-up to the marines and are having to overcome a lot of shortcomings. Alien gameplay requires a ton of skill, luck, and intelligence, and if you screw it up, you're punished for it.
Marines have very little downtime, lots of personal freedom and a lot of features designed to hold their hand, and features that they simply don't and never have needed. They lack a lot of depth due to a lot of these 'features' (or rather, lack thereof). Their stock unit has really no need of pres since the LMG remains viable through the whole game. They don't even bother building power nodes in half the map. No matter where they go, they know that the commander can have their back and rain medspam on them, or drop a sensor sweep all the way across the map. Some depth could've been added here by forcing them to build a power node before they can get commander assistance, but... it wasn't.
Despite all the LOLOL L2P trolls, nobody's really been able to debunk the accusation of a skulk with 0 pres in the mid / lategame vs. a marine with 0 pres in the mid / lategame. As someone else put it, you spawn as a marine, and you know you can kick ass. Then you get a shotgun, and you know you can kick more ass. Then the commander gets some upgrades, and you just kick even more ass. A skulk with 0 pres can TRY to xenocide, if they have Hive 3, but not only is Xenocide pretty low-power, but it forces a player to die, sit in the spawn queue, and while he's there he's earning no pres, and thus has no hope of advancing to a more capable lifeform. A marine with 0 pres can just find a shotgun lying around if he really wanted to upgrade. Late-game, the Skulk gets stuck to tagging things with parasite and running away, and hoping to chew down an RT before all the marines teleport across the map with their phase gate and blow him away.
They're even talking about letting people bail out of exos, so you get to kill the exo, and then a marine magically shoots out and you have to kill him too. Why are these discussions about dumbing-down the marine team even more even happening?
Whether or not aliens can or do win is irrelevant. The alien strategy is locked into a very linear path, and the vast majority of alien victories fall into two categories: Early Onos that the marines weren't prepared for, or massive late-game Onos rush.
As an example: once upon a time, infestation would slow marine movement and increase alien health regeneration. It appears to have been removed or the effect so reduced it's unnoticeable. A feature that makes sense, removed or nerfed because... why? Between MACs, armories, and the fact that a few players can build anything in like 5 seconds, nobody even uses welders anymore.
The only heavy disparity right now is the power node system vs. cyst chain and the sentry system vs. whips + X structure defense
Power Nodes cost no res just time and having power off doesn't stop a bunch of marine tech
<i>(Marines may pay 10 tres + 5 pres for a welder to rebuild a node quickly, but <u>Do Not </u>have to do this)</i>
Aliens might dump 30 res into their cyst chain within the first 5 minutes of the game and are <u>Completely Dependant</u> on it for everything but a hive
<i>(Cysts can deny structures; however, but it's very expensive and often counter productive if you don't have a res advantage)</i>
Sentries cost 20 res per nest, are deadly, and can be build into side a hive
Whips cost 3 times as much if you want to match sentry DPS, are buggy, and cannot push a base unless you walk them in <i>(echo is mad expensive)</i>
There's a number of other minor balance changes I'd like to see, but these are the major ones on the community floor at the moment
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<u><b>Temphage:</b></u>
Or just use sprint on maps like Docking where the marine start is like a forward base
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@ Temphage : arguable. But I am thinking that a drifter for only 3 res is the way better option.
How hard is it for the alien commander to go gorge and put a ton of clogs on the upgrades + have hydras?
I almost never see people doing this, but it should be done every game
Every game you see end with an egglock almost certainly could of been prevented if the commander went gorge
Just ask yourself how many times you've walked right into the only hive on the map with no drifter, guards, or defense
It's pathetic. . .
I'm listing the things that no amount of skill will change
How hard is it for the alien commander to go gorge and put a ton of clogs on the upgrades + have hydras?
I almost never see people doing this, but it should be done every game
Every game you see end with an egglock almost certainly could of been prevented if the commander went gorge
Just ask yourself how many times you've walked right into the only hive on the map with no drifter, guards, or defense
It's pathetic. . .
I'm listing the things that no amount of skill will change<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i suggest you watch <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/337244868" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/337244868</a> ... at which point do aliens suffer in the first 5 minutes? (i'm assuming you believe they suffer in early game due to your comment about the ~30 early resources spent on infestation globs)
aliens are super strong in the first 5 minutes, if marines fail to deny or at least delay a fast 3-4 alien extractors, then it means 6 minute onos... usually resulting in the marine team being put on the backfoot for the entire game :/
i have nothing really against 6 minute onos at this point, given more time we might see marine teams figure out a more successful response. but as of now, it's a very strong strategy.
How hard is it for the alien commander to go gorge and put a ton of clogs on the upgrades + have hydras?
I almost never see people doing this, but it should be done every game
Every game you see end with an egglock almost certainly could of been prevented if the commander went gorge
Just ask yourself how many times you've walked right into the only hive on the map with no drifter, guards, or defense
It's pathetic. . .
I'm listing the things that no amount of skill will change<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are telling yourself that this case is a disadvantage. An armslab dont need those extras, right?
And yes, I am asking myself :>. And I can tell you that I have shot upgrades down even with whips around. The best defense for upgrades in my opinion is to hide them @ special locations you dont expect. Shades are also very usefull.
And you also missed the fact that an destroyed upgrade have to fully researched again. You have just described another disadvantage that buildings have low HP and easy to snipe.
Why don't you list "Marines cant use blink" as a disadvantage?
Marines don't have a unit with 3500 hp... Thats a disadvantage?
Lerk cant use bile-bomb... thats definitively a disadvantage...
It gets stupid if you talk about "disadvantages" because balence is ABOUT teams having disadvantages and them all adding up to make it equal... If we just list disadvantaged all your doing is listing <b>game features</b>... Not <b><u>broken</u> game features.</b>
Like you could say: GL > Kills lerk, Flamer > Umbra... But would a 1 GL marine and 1 Flamer marine kill a lerk and an onos? No...
How about 1 GL + 1 Flamer + 1 Exo marine vs 2 Lerks + 1 Onos... probably. So which bit is broken? The GL doing more and more dmg depending on the number of players? Maybe... Lets test. 10 GLs Vs 10 Lerks... I think the GLs would win... We have our answer.
So GL is broken? It costs 25 res... less than a lerk and in huge numbers it pwnzorz huge numbers of lerks... What about if we say 10 gls vs 3 onos and 7 skulks (almost the same res cost) Do they win? Depending on the conditions its probably equal... So the problem is GLs ultra rape small lifeforms... Now we know the problem they can be fixed.
What about 5 shotgun Jetpackers vs 5 fades... In the open its probably equal, throw in some nano shield, some medpack spam, a phase gate and an armory and its easy for the jetpackers to win... What about if we instead try it in the alien hive?
5 fades, 5 jetpackers and a hive + 1 shift and 2 crags... Fades never run out of energy (till the marines just kill the shift) but they also are now denied healing by the hive (it just takes too long...) so now the marines probably still win due to beign able to kill fades whilst they are trying to heal... Swap the fades for onos and give them a gorge to heal and its probably more equal... So the gorge fixes things?
Ok lets try 4 fades + 1 gorge in the hive... the fades are still losing... must be the fades are just gimped... lets fix it?
---- Wooo rant.
Aliens and marines have alot basic similarities with different weights. Like Spawntime, buildings, defenses, researchtime and so on. You can compare this.
Stuff like "Lerk cant use bile-bomb... thats definitively a disadvantage",yes thats realy bull###### ;>.But that is in your list.
EDIT: "They're even talking about letting people bail out of exos, so you get to kill the exo, and then a marine magically shoots out and you have to kill him too. Why are these discussions about dumbing-down the marine team even more even happening?"
When I saw this tweet I could not help but laugh so hard. On top of Marines having more advantages they just add more. Lemme guess. The marine can also have a shotgun/jetpack with level 3 armor and wep in the mech. Then the marine exits the mech to REPAIR THE MECH WITH THE WELDER. On top of this they are going to allow marines to weld doors shut to make things harder for aliens. GG BALANCE
You seem to forget that you can also get available traits for free when you respawn.
Seems a lot of alien players are too butthurt of their last death to remember and just rush in again.
Skulks zerging an Exo or 2 are also usually successful if they jump around like crazy, since exos have limited vision, especially of what's over or under/around them.
Base rushing, power node sniping and RT harassing with a pack of skulks will probably force a beacon, leaving exos with no backup.
If you're expecting to run in straight line and down a 3/3 marine or an exo, then L2P.
The funny thing is that's actually doable these days with all the new players running around. :3
Otherwise the balance is fairly close, and would only need some small tweaking.
Oh and for those that weren't in the beta... UWE pays ALOT of attention to the balance between the two sides and tweaking.
I believe you will find I am being facetious by going to Logical extremes to point out that your way of analyzing game play is pointless.
Base rushing, power node sniping and RT harassing with a pack of skulks will probably force a beacon, leaving exos with no backup.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Meanwhile, without your team to tie them up, what are those exos doing? Trying to break their way through the incredible defensive options that the alien team has been offered, that are so difficult to penetrate that the marines needed a cannon that can shoot through walls to succeed?
This isn't even considering how much valuable time it wastes for skulks to get around the map and how long it takes them to chew through your average marine structure, not without three or four of them all eating it at once.
I'm not saying it can't work, but you apologists need to stop pretending that that's some sort of magical strategy that will always work and is always viable, and that it's not down to a huge amount of luck or anything.
I wish they would focus more on adding features and making the game more fun before they focused on making it balanced around their over-glorified 50% win rate. We're, at best, sitting at as many features as NS1, but if you break it down to alien upgrades offered, lifeform abilities, etc. NS2 comes out behind. They could've done a lot more with the game, but apparently decided instead to chop content out with a hatchet (especially hearing about the beta features that were cut) just to meet the release date, desperate to make the game balanced at the last minute no matter the cost.
No. Your points arent "logical extremes" they are pretty different. My list is about stuff that IS in game.Facts. If some points are realy disadvantages , thats arguable.But your list is about speculations only. Stuff that is currently not part of the game.
Actually no, you are listing differences so am I...
Jetpack marines can carry Grenade launchers.
Lerks cannot use bile bomb.
No offense but why even add an alien commander if your not gonna do it properly? Alien feels even simpler than NS1 despite the addition of a commander. We have lost different levels for the evolution paths as well as 1/3 of the possible evolutions. We have fades, gorges and onos losing out on abilities ending up with less abilities than in NS1. We get a piss poor substitute for the offensive chamber that have so far gotten any kills in any of my games.
I was excited to play some new exciting gameplay with aliens but only to find out that it has become even more shallow despite the commander addition.
Marines also cannot have a drink @ onos bar so we dont have to talk about that.
To list those "cannot" stuff is sensless.
You put "powernodes" as a single point? How about the fact that if they lose a specific power node, they stand an extremely good chance of losing the game right then and there. I think maybe that "powernodes" point should take up 5 or 6 lines.
You put "powernodes" as a single point? How about the fact that if they lose a specific power node, they stand an extremely good chance of losing the game right then and there. I think maybe that "powernodes" point should take up 5 or 6 lines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The marine spawn power node is rarely under threat for the majority of the game. You make it sound like any random skulk can go in there and knock out the power... not the case.
A game cannot be fun if it's imbalanced, that's basic game design 101.
Padding out the game with gimmicks or "features" might entertain the ADHD kiddies akin to jiggling keys in front of a toddler but it won't make a game deep. Less is more in that regard, juat ask Blizzard on SC2.
Let's examine on what NS2 has that NS1 did not have:
-Khamm
-Belly slide
-Building hydras on walls
-Clogs
-Infestation Spike
-Dynamic infestation
-Whips and their grenade throwing ability
-Extra abilities for the alien chambers
-Power nodes and dynamic lighting
-Ability to buy your own weapons
Let's see what NS1 had that NS2 does not have:
-Onos digest
-Having to pay 10 more res for a hive or any structure because you need to gorge first
-Constant commander babysitting
-Elevators (that gradually got removed from maps with each version as they were getting abused)
-Focus
-Redemption
-Onos digest
-Having to pay 10 more res for a hive or any structure because you need to gorge first
-Constant commander babysitting
-Elevators (that gradually got removed from maps with each version as they were getting abused)
-Focus
-Redemption<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Acid rocket
Metabolism
Web
Hive teleportation
Catalyst
HMG
Heavy armour that could equip anygun
Scent of fear
Hand grenades
primal scream
RT electrify..
These are just features that it had that NS2 doesnt... your lists include opinions if you want me to add opinions the list will be even longer.
I'm just gonna say how Aliens win from my (pub) experience.
Aliens skulk rush.
Aliens get a 6/7m Onos.
Mass Onos late game.
Why are Aliens so reliant on Onos? Why are Fades and Lerks bad investments, or at least feel that way? It's not that I can't use them. It's that they don't feel impactful even if I'm destroying. Four hits with a Fade... you have to shoot a Marine for like 20 seconds to kill them with spikes as a Lerk. Also leaves me curious, does a 1/1 Marine LMG outdamage Lerk spikes?
The reliance on Onos just feels gross to me. I don't care what win percentages the teams are rocking.
The only heavy disparity right now is the power node system vs. cyst chain and the sentry system vs. whips + X structure defense
Power Nodes cost no res just time and having power off doesn't stop a bunch of marine tech
<i>(Marines may pay 10 tres + 5 pres for a welder to rebuild a node quickly, but <u>Do Not </u>have to do this)</i>
Aliens might dump 30 res into their cyst chain within the first 5 minutes of the game and are <u>Completely Dependant</u> on it for everything but a hive
<i>(Cysts can deny structures; however, but it's very expensive and often counter productive if you don't have a res advantage)</i>
Sentries cost 20 res per nest, are deadly, and can be build into side a hive
Whips cost 3 times as much if you want to match sentry DPS, are buggy, and cannot push a base unless you walk them in <i>(echo is mad expensive)</i>
There's a number of other minor balance changes I'd like to see, but these are the major ones on the community floor at the moment
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<u><b>Temphage:</b></u>
Or just use sprint on maps like Docking where the marine start is like a forward base
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I actually don't agree that sentry nests are deadly, there is literally always a blind spot, and it seems that the turrets can't kill even a lone skulk fast enough to stop them from finding it. Sentry are useful when there are marines present, useless when there are none. It's actually rather the same situation with whips. It's a delay tactic unless they have support. I will agree that whips seem to fail at grenade deflection about half the time, since they have no problem smacking a grenade right into your crag nest, but hey I could probably have placed them differently if I wasn't in a hurry to get back to cyst maintenance. Also a shift with echo can help to fix any seriously screwed up placements and gives all the alien structures the ability to be teleported to any other shift. (Not to mention I can place eggs anywhere on the map.) Yeah it costs a lot, but it does have it's uses such as moving whips around to block advances by one or two marines. It buys time, that's really all I expect from them.
Things I think would be nice changes to add in:
Ability to choose which egg would want to spawn in.
Ability to choose which upgrades you want while dead.
Ability to choose which life form you want to play while dead.
More CC chair reliance on tech upgrades for weapons/armor. (I.E. 1 CC upgrade 1, 2 CC upgrade 2, 3 CC upgrade 3.
Ability to scale alien abilities on number of hives held.
These things don't need to <i>upgrade</i> while dead, I would even be happy if it simply queued up for gestation when you spawn. I'll admit I would prefer it to bypass gestation but thats because I prefer aliens team.
At the end of the day, aliens can be teleported around the map. They just need to be dead to do it and it doesn't work reliably.
The commander can move all the eggs on the map to one location, it's just difficult and expensive to do it quickly and there's no guarantee a hive won't plop an egg down and ruin your spawn even if you pulled it off perfectly. That is what annoys me as commander anyway.
Aliens skulk rush.
Aliens get a 6/7m Onos.
Mass Onos late game.
Why are Aliens so reliant on Onos? Why are Fades and Lerks bad investments, or at least feel that way? It's not that I can't use them. It's that they don't feel impactful even if I'm destroying. Four hits with a Fade... you have to shoot a Marine for like 20 seconds to kill them with spikes as a Lerk. Also leaves me curious, does a 1/1 Marine LMG outdamage Lerk spikes?
The reliance on Onos just feels gross to me. I don't care what win percentages the teams are rocking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True but the problem is that in this game fades and lerks are just not useful enough and onos are too powerful. Just check the stats for onos/fade ns1 vs ns2 and it's so obvious that something is completely wrong. Every single game of NS2 I have won as aliens has been won because we managed to get 5-6 onos and that's it. Fades are sooooo weak in this game and it's not uncommon to get 2 shotted by a shotgun
I like NS2 but not as much as I would have wanted to. Aliens are too boring to play and the lack of depth makes the game way too boring when you find yourself ending up in the same situations all the time. Marines are better even though I miss my beloved heavy armor and HMG
Ability to choose which upgrades you want while dead.
Ability to choose which life form you want to play while dead.
More CC chair reliance on tech upgrades for weapons/armor. (I.E. 1 CC upgrade 1, 2 CC upgrade 2, 3 CC upgrade 3.
Ability to scale alien abilities on number of hives held.
These things don't need to <i>upgrade</i> while dead, I would even be happy if it simply queued up for gestation when you spawn. I'll admit I would prefer it to bypass gestation but thats because I prefer aliens team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agreed so much, except I would push even harder for them to upgrade while you're dead, even. it's really quite silly when your hive is under attack, and:
1) you spawn inside that hive so your egg just gets killed
- alternatively, you spawn far away when you wanted to spawn there, and now for some reason you're impossibly far away from defending it
2) if you did manage to spawn, then you waste more valuable time selecting upgrades and evolving them
3) you die instantly to weapons 3 if you aren't an onos
4) repeat
NONE of the mechanics have any synergy. if skulks are supposed to be fodder units, why are they punished so heavily? I have less fear of dying as a marine, diving for a fallen shotgun. why is the spawn system so harsh for units that are <i>supposed</i> to die?
edit: arms lab upgrades being tied to cc would be really sick, maybe
The aliens go fast hive in that video so they only put down about 5 res worth of cysts?
Fast Hive usually blows up in your face on larger games. . . you almost never see it on the 12on12 servers and that's where cyst chains get hammered all game
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<u><b>Mr.Greedy:</b></u>
Not true at all. . .
Arms lab goes down while it's researching it's the same as alien upgrades going down and often times worse
The reason you don't see more people complaining about it is that aliens usually go for Obs or power first and when power is down it might be GG
I have the luck to play in a game where marines lost their base 4 times, but still somehow won
That's 4 times the aliens came in and knocked power and killed all IPs
The second time this happened there were two arms labs researching in the background
Both didn't get done before they got take down <i>(pretty serious hit to the econ)</i>
1) you spawn inside that hive so your egg just gets killed
- alternatively, you spawn far away when you wanted to spawn there, and now for some reason you're impossibly far away from defending it
2) if you did manage to spawn, then you waste more valuable time selecting upgrades and evolving them
3) you die instantly to weapons 3 if you aren't an onos
4) repeat
NONE of the mechanics have any synergy. if skulks are supposed to be fodder units, why are they punished so heavily? I have less fear of dying as a marine, diving for a fallen shotgun. why is the spawn system so harsh for units that are <i>supposed</i> to die?
edit: arms lab upgrades being tied to cc would be really sick, maybe<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is your commander is probably too busy or unaware of how to fix that issue for you. As commanders learn what's available to them you'll see the alien abilities utilized more and more effectively. Alien commander is very different from the marines commander. You facilitate your teams win, rather than being the architect of it. Certainly you can have a plan, but playing aliens will more times than not require your strategy to be more fluid, and rely on your team being organized around each other and tasked with area denial rather than outright assault. (Although assault can certainly work with the right team and is always needed at the right time.)
Of course, none of this is meant to imply that marines won't get better as well in their commanding. It's just a different style of team support.
Alien commanders have more than bone wall to defend with, by the way. They can drop healing mists, build AoE healing structures, build teleport/spawn chambers, put up turrets that deflect explosives and shoot enemy combatants, and cloak all of the above. It all revolves around the infestation cysts that are easy to kill and can be severed to kill whole swaths of the alien support system, but after you learn where the weak points are on a given map you can mitigate the marines ability to cut your supply lines. You'll also learn to grow your cysts in from several directions to make it harder for them to be cut, and all of this becomes easier the more hives you control.
EDIT: It can be hard to accept as a commander that there are times when you have the better strategy but one or two excellent players on the marines team will simply wipe the floor with your skulks every time. On the flip side, the exact same thing can happen for the aliens team. It's a two sided coin. On one side you have the commanders ability to pay attention, know the map, know what abilities he has available to him while working effectively with his team, and on the other side you have players that need to be able to work effectively as a unit and actually kill both marines and structures on their own. Perhaps the most important thing is that everyone needs to have a basic understanding of what abilities/life forms work best and in what situations. Right now, it's the latter that's holding most teams back on both sides of the aisle.)
if the game is not balanced, it's fun to play only on one side.
If it's fun only on 1 side, you have team-stacking, as noone wants to go the other side.
So, it' better balancing a game so each side can win and be satisfied or adding things to a game where there will be only one side playable?
A lot of post you are making are based or on small experience or on only the experience of these 3 days.
And I see a lot of similar threads or opinions.
You see that "marine can turtle" is an advantage for marines?
I think the possibility to turtle easy is the main reason many marine games are ruined by these bad commanders.
If you use the res to build robotics factory, sentry battery, turrets, you don't build rt, researches etc.
defending an outpost should be an option only for late game (for a good commander), to focus on pushing and don't have to beacon for a lone skulk. and even with that, all the res you spend there is rarely an investment.