Onos alien tactic
Juomari
Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167141Members
Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167141Members
Firstly, let me tell that i know this topic has been made before, the reason i make another is that we really need to voice this up, as i think it might be game breaking issue (atleast for me ).
Onos in 6mins tactic should not be possible.
i don't care is this "balanced" or that is there "counter" for this for marines, in public game this is only alien tactic there is, if you com anything else you are being called noob and ejected. It is irrelevant is it balanced or not because this is really ruining the public games, marines always lose againts this tactic, because publiv games aren't as organized to actually hunt onos with 2 gorges healing.
why is it game breaking ?
1. it's only tactic aliens use, if you use any other you're being called noob.
2. it's not fun at all, onos is basicly invurnable with 2 gorges at so early game.
3. game ends SO fast if there is even slight imbalance between player skills ingame.
like i said, i don't know is the game balanced or not, it's irrelevant, that tactic is no fun, and should be removed completely from the game, my personal opinion it's too overpowered compared to other tactics.
solutions :
1. make it so you can't have onos until third hive, fades are perfectly viable alien lifeform and they should be midgame aliens.
2. or atleast make it so that commander can't spawn onos eggs until there is third hive, but players can, it will take a lot longer to get onos.
3. increase price of onos egg for commander to 150, i think this is not as bad as it sounds, because there is really not much to spend your resources at.
there is still viable option to plant fade eggs, they should be midgame aliens, not onoses wich will crush whole enemy team.
Onos in 6mins tactic should not be possible.
i don't care is this "balanced" or that is there "counter" for this for marines, in public game this is only alien tactic there is, if you com anything else you are being called noob and ejected. It is irrelevant is it balanced or not because this is really ruining the public games, marines always lose againts this tactic, because publiv games aren't as organized to actually hunt onos with 2 gorges healing.
why is it game breaking ?
1. it's only tactic aliens use, if you use any other you're being called noob.
2. it's not fun at all, onos is basicly invurnable with 2 gorges at so early game.
3. game ends SO fast if there is even slight imbalance between player skills ingame.
like i said, i don't know is the game balanced or not, it's irrelevant, that tactic is no fun, and should be removed completely from the game, my personal opinion it's too overpowered compared to other tactics.
solutions :
1. make it so you can't have onos until third hive, fades are perfectly viable alien lifeform and they should be midgame aliens.
2. or atleast make it so that commander can't spawn onos eggs until there is third hive, but players can, it will take a lot longer to get onos.
3. increase price of onos egg for commander to 150, i think this is not as bad as it sounds, because there is really not much to spend your resources at.
there is still viable option to plant fade eggs, they should be midgame aliens, not onoses wich will crush whole enemy team.
Comments
No other effective counter to exos than Onos.
An early game onos is very easy to kill, given that marines work together. If you cant gather 3 marines to charge an onos and kill it then the problem is not the game, it is the players
Lol... no.
An early onos has 2700 hp, thats 14 shotgun shots... probably 18-20 with 2-3 gorges healing it.
If you have 5 marines they have to get 4 shots EACH at point blank to kill it...
You think you can do it with 3 marines? LOLOLOLOLOLOL... no.
No other effective counter to exos than Onos.
An early game onos is very easy to kill, given that marines work together. If you cant gather 3 marines to charge an onos and kill it then the problem is not the game, it is the players<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. 3 marines can never kill onos at 6min when game has started, never, ever, never, even if onos is first time playing, without any gorges or skulks to support him.
2. there is counters to exos, such as skulks jumping at their feet while gorges are spamming bile bombs, and that is not the point, at the time marines get exo's, aliens SHOULD get onoses, now we are talking about 6min onoses wich is bull poop.
3. basicly i could turn your counter around, if onos is "counter" to exos, then exo's are really only counter to onoses, and goodluck having exo's at 6min as marines, when upgrading weapon, armo, phasegate, armory etc, all aliens need is hive 40res and onos egg 75res, and mayby carapace 45res.
all you need is 4 harvesters for aliens to have 6min onos, that's the problem, all aliens have to do is protect these 4 rt's and harass marines.
Actually no, the less harvesters you build the quicker your research expands due to not having to invest money into expanding your economy.
It still amazes me how little people realise this... :|
I find it quite easy to pump out a 6 min onos with 2-3 harvesters.
lol a tip for any1 who can't kill a / stop a 6 min onos build your armoury in a door way and get welders 1 onos can't kill and armoury against 1 welder without dieing <<< works great :P
Problem was the NS1 Onos was quite pathetic and had to rely on hit-and-run Devours. You would usually spend as much time trying to break the marine base turtle as you had spent the entire rest of the game building up to that point. I'm happy that the Onos is as durable as it is (even if shotguns are a bit too much). Returning the Onos to an endgame feature only forces that much more reliance on the Fade, and as I said, I don't like the idea of FadeTanks coming back. Last week I wrote that the Onos / Fade and lack of a third durable combat lifeform was a problem in NS1 and that this really unscores it. The Fade is now much weaker and cannot tank like it could in NS1, so without the Onos, what is there?
The Fade most certainly does need some durability back, but was anyone really happy with Fades flying in with their Jesus-pose, slapping away at a marine, and then floating back out to go metabolize in the hallway?
I think Fade durability could be improved without actually MAKING them more durable by giving them a considerable amount of damage resistance while they're blinking / shadowstepping. It stands to reason that much of their durability issues would be related to ping / lag. I shadowstep, but the MARINE doesn't see me shadowstep for another quarter of a second, so he fires upon me and I start taking damage, even though from my POV I'm now behind him.
It's the same problem with skulks being killed around corners, really.
you have to think long an hard before making any change, otherwise you risk over-shooting and causing other imbalance. please understand this before you babble on about your ham-handed quickfix suggestions.
you have to think long an hard before making any change, otherwise you risk over-shooting and causing other imbalance. please understand this before you babble on about your ham-handed quickfix suggestions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's why there should be OPEN test servers, where you can test these chances before putting in realgame.
i would gladly play those test servers than another 100 similiar game of onos rush tactic, it's starting to really affect my love for this game, i for one love the game, but see red everytime there is 6min onos in the game, and there is more of those game everyday i play this game, it's like epidemic all noob players learns this is one and only tactic to aliens. and no matter what you suggest how to kill onos, it's basicly impossible at 6min to kill skilled onos with whole alien team in the back.
and this is why this is gamebreaking to me, it's starting to become one and only tactic to aliens, i for one hate that tactic whatever i'm playing alien or marine, it's stupid no matter what team i'm on, i hate it as alien because i never get any up's till onos is made, and usually game ends once onos is done ( or in most cases aliens get's everysingle point in map exept marine mainbase + 1-2 rt's and game can continue for another 20mins until aliens finally reliazes to kill node in their mainbase ) and as marine i hate it because that onos is unkillable, it's impossible to kill it without very imbalanced teams ( all marines are pro's and aliens bad ).
problem in 6min onos is not that onos is overpowered.... it's that there is still whole team supporting that onos, and onos should be endgame unit just like exo's.
imagine if there is dualminigun exo coming to a hive at 6min and 4-5marines + mac's repairing him ? it's basicly the same thing, alone not so big threat, in a good team, game breaking.
lol a tip for any1 who can't kill a / stop a 6 min onos build your armoury in a door way and get welders 1 onos can't kill and armoury against 1 welder without dieing <<< works great :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2011026:date=Nov 5 2012, 01:47 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 5 2012, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol... no.
An early onos has 2700 hp, thats 14 shotgun shots... probably 18-20 with 2-3 gorges healing it.
If you have 5 marines they have to get 4 shots EACH at point blank to kill it...
You think you can do it with 3 marines? LOLOLOLOLOLOL... no.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An armoury may block it... but it doesnt kill it.
<!--quoteo(post=2011161:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:36 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 5 2012, 03:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Fade most certainly does need some durability back, but was anyone really happy with Fades flying in with their Jesus-pose, slapping away at a marine, and then floating back out to go metabolize in the hallway?
I think Fade durability could be improved without actually MAKING them more durable by giving them a considerable amount of damage resistance while they're blinking / shadowstepping. It stands to reason that much of their durability issues would be related to ping / lag. I shadowstep, but the MARINE doesn't see me shadowstep for another quarter of a second, so he fires upon me and I start taking damage, even though from my POV I'm now behind him.
It's the same problem with skulks being killed around corners, really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I proposed half way compromise, (50+hp, 25+AP and focus) I think the fade NEEDS to be made viable mid and late game otherwise we are going to continue to see end game aliens being full on onos spam. I would rather not see shadowstep/blink cause you to recieve less dmg... It removes the skill of actually being able to use blink... People who can blink/shadow step are incredibly hard to hit as it is, giving it a further buff is just removing skill curve and gives no reward to better players.
1. Kill the second hive.
2. Kill their harvesters.
3. Quickly tech up to jetpacks and weapon upgrades
- If you can only do one try to get attack 2 before 6-8 mins and use team work and phasegates to hold them off until jetpacks then push out.
The third option is basically the marine equivalent of the alien onos rush. You hold 4-5 extractors, get 2nd base, get your tech.
As with all games (most of the time), if you fail to hold your extractors you will lose. If you fail to spend your resources you get from the extractor, you will probably lose.
i would gladly play those test servers than another 100 similiar game of onos rush tactic, it's starting to really affect my love for this game, i for one love the game, but see red everytime there is 6min onos in the game, and there is more of those game everyday i play this game, it's like epidemic all noob players learns this is one and only tactic to aliens. and no matter what you suggest how to kill onos, it's basicly impossible at 6min to kill skilled onos with whole alien team in the back.
and this is why this is gamebreaking to me, it's starting to become one and only tactic to aliens, i for one hate that tactic whatever i'm playing alien or marine, it's stupid no matter what team i'm on, i hate it as alien because i never get any up's till onos is made, and usually game ends once onos is done ( or in most cases aliens get's everysingle point in map exept marine mainbase + 1-2 rt's and game can continue for another 20mins until aliens finally reliazes to kill node in their mainbase ) and as marine i hate it because that onos is unkillable, it's impossible to kill it without very imbalanced teams ( all marines are pro's and aliens bad ).
problem in 6min onos is not that onos is overpowered.... it's that there is still whole team supporting that onos, and onos should be endgame unit just like exo's.
imagine if there is dualminigun exo coming to a hive at 6min and 4-5marines + mac's repairing him ? it's basicly the same thing, alone not so big threat, in a good team, game breaking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think his point was a more "ham-fisted way" of saying what I said.
Nobody likes the practice of the 5-minute Onos, or the theory of a 5-minute Exo. But I detailed pretty well what the problem was with fixing it. If you make the Onos more expensive, you risk really hurting the alien midgame, where the very fragile Fades cannot keep up like they could in NS1. This also means players would expect a corresponding increase in Onos durability and power, since they risk losing more when they die.
If you make the Onos weaker, you risk crippling the alien endgame, which almost always stalls for several long, dumb, boring minutes as they try to chip away at the marine base.
If you tie the Onos to the third hive, you've weakened the alien team considerably as they just become that much more dependent on controlling the majority of the map simply to get their only unit that can stand up to the exos that marines can roll out on just two tech points. This means that if the marines manage to snatch that third hive, an alien comeback becomes almost impossible.
This is a strategy game. If you suspect the alien team of going fast onos there are at least 3 things you can do to beat it.
1. Kill the second hive.
2. Kill their harvesters.
3. Quickly tech up to jetpacks and weapon upgrades
- If you can only do one try to get attack 2 before 6-8 mins and use team work and phasegates to hold them off until jetpacks then push out.
The third option is basically the marine equivalent of the alien onos rush. You hold 4-5 extractors, get 2nd base, get your tech.
As with all games (most of the time), if you fail to hold your extractors you will lose. If you fail to spend your resources you get from the extractor, you will probably lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
let's start by saying, i'm not looking answers to how to "counter" it, because in order to counter it you need : marines need good players, aliens needs bad players.
your number 1 and 2 is basicly wich values your team skills, if aliens fail to defend hive, they are bad, if they fail to protect 3 harvester ( wich is VERY low ammount and should be easy to def ) they are bad, again, you think aliens needs whole map to get 6min onos, no they don't, they need 3 harvester wich is very small portion of the map and should be easy to def.
teching jetpack's and weapon 3 is not solution as it's impossible to do withing 6mins.
and how about tying onos for third hive only for commander ?
players could still get onos for their own giving this game more strategic meaning, commander could give fades to players who are waiting resources for onos, i'm not saying there should be insane balance changings in the game, i see fade very good lifeform at 5-10mins passed game, very well able to push marines and def.
whole point of this topic : i'm not saying onos is overpowered, i'm saying it shouldn't be possible to get onos at 6mins, escpesially if aliens only controls 3 rt's, it's ridicilous.
and by making it so, that commander couldn't spawn onos egg without third hive, would dely onoses just enough, by the time marines get exo's, aliens could have 3 onoses if 3 players saves for them, and commander could spawn fade eggs for these res saving players, it would add so much more to this game.
and let me add, if aliens only controls 2rt's, doesn't they deserve a lose then ? i've seen games where aliens wins a game with only 2rt's because commander spawns onos eggs and by the time marines rush hives to finish aliens, those onoses rush marine bases and they lose.
players could still get onos for their own giving this game more strategic meaning, commander could give fades to players who are waiting resources for onos, i'm not saying there should be insane balance changings in the game, i see fade very good lifeform at 5-10mins passed game, very well able to push marines and def.
whole point of this topic : i'm not saying onos is overpowered, i'm saying it shouldn't be possible to get onos at 6mins, escpesially if aliens only controls 3 rt's, it's ridicilous.
and by making it so, that commander couldn't spawn onos egg without third hive, would dely onoses just enough, by the time marines get exo's, aliens could have 3 onoses if 3 players saves for them, and commander could spawn fade eggs for these res saving players, it would add so much more to this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So nice to see a person with 7 posts understand the game so well.
<b>I will just quote a very good solution to this problem here:</b>
<!--quoteo(post=2010002:date=Nov 4 2012, 09:47 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Nov 4 2012, 09:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about this idea for the onos problem, Schimmel.
+no hive requirements for any lifeform
+requires an alien to evolve into the lifeform via pres before allowing a tres version
This solves: a) The 6-7 minute onos which is incredibly broken in competitive games. b) removes hive reqs for tres so aliens with 200 res can still drop onos eggs for a comeback even if they lose second hive late in the game. c) forces a natural tech path through the lifeform evolutions -- early game skulk into lerk/gorge -> mid game lerk/fade -> late game fade/onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's pretty gimmicky, but it would probably work.
your number 1 and 2 is basicly wich values your team skills, if aliens fail to defend hive, they are bad, if they fail to protect 3 harvester ( wich is VERY low ammount and should be easy to def ) they are bad, again, you think aliens needs whole map to get 6min onos, no they don't, they need 3 harvester wich is very small portion of the map and should be easy to def.
teching jetpack's and weapon 3 is not solution as it's impossible to do withing 6mins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and lets say aliens do only want to hold 3. what do you think will become of the rest of the resource nodes? and guess who's going to tech up faster than they should because the other team is neglecting them?
you're talking to people who've played every iteration of this game from the first build of alpha that only consisted of a main menu. we've played this before onos were put in, we played it after it was put in, after onos was changed from needing multiple hives to 1, and back again, and then needing onos to be it's own researched upgrade at the second hive, then having that removed, etc etc etc. 6 minute onos in this current build != checkmate. If the marine team can't use their team's strength to gang up on oni or at least make it play defensively then they're going to lose no matter how early or late in the game they come in. The game hasn't been "live" for a week yet and it takes a long time for all the rookies to learn it. You'll soon find out they're not as scary as you make them out to be.
Would also help alleviate late game skulk uselessness, if your khamm can afford some metabolize you'll be able to un-skulk more frequently.
It doesn't matter if it has to play defensively, One onos can defend the entire whilst the <b>rest of the team</b> can attack at leisure knowing the hive is safe.
Yes onos at 6 mins are scary, playing the: I'm a beta tester, i'm not scared of early onos card.
Isn't big or clever, you are just standing in the way of the game being fixed.
Balancing the onos at the 6 min mark is <b>not</b> an option, because then it will be ###### late game.
Onos is a <b>late</b> game unit, either it should be moved to <b>late</b> game or ALL late game should be brought forward to 6 mins.
Do you want to see ALL tech available at 6 mins? I sure as hell don't.
<!--quoteo(post=2011250:date=Nov 5 2012, 04:33 PM:name=arnyboy87)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (arnyboy87 @ Nov 5 2012, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011250"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Juomari your problem is that you think there is no skill to a 6 min onos ! and in using it correctly, this is not true I am afraid this is even more true in 6v6 games. in larger games ie 8v8 and over if you can't kill a 6 min onos then they are just playing better than you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because in larger games it <b>is</b> killable doesnt mean its balanced.
In larger games it takes the entire team to kill the onos, meaning the <b>rest</b> of the other team is able to freely do whatever they like whilst the <b>entire</b> marine team is help but by a<b> single</b> player.
Would also help alleviate late game skulk uselessness, if your khamm can afford some metabolize you'll be able to un-skulk more frequently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actualy really like this idea you should make a proper post for it in the other ideas forum,, this could rehelp the end game slow down as player stat to loss there lifeforms.
Its also worth noting aliens have nothing but onos rush right now, lerk is an annoyance but thats about it, fade is in a terrible spot. So you only have skulk (rapidly becomes inadequate due to A/W upgrades),the gorge (only good for bilebomb) and the onos. If you want other strategy you need to balance it up to allow other strategy
No... no they are not.
JP gives you slight vulnerability.
But in a corridor (most of the ns2 maps) you will be utterly ###### by an onos still.
All that res spent on teching to JP has left you WITHOUT any weapon or armour upgrades and now your even more ###### than if you hadn't gotten Jetpacks at all.