I don't like the idea of the comm converting TRes to PRes much more than I like the current egg drops, because they both muck up the balance of PRes accumulation. It's not fun for the comm to dump all his money into the void for other people to have fun with, and it's not fun for the players to have their own PRes accumulation feel sluggish(or their lifeforms feel weak) because the game has to be balanced to take into account that TRes dump. I just feel like the purity of the system is compromised by this mixing of res pools. The comm should spend his money on comm stuff and the players should spend their money on player stuff. The comm/player interaction should happen through gameplay, not meta resource management.
<!--quoteo(post=2011161:date=Nov 5 2012, 07:36 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 5 2012, 07:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problem was the NS1 Onos was quite pathetic and had to rely on hit-and-run Devours. You would usually spend as much time trying to break the marine base turtle as you had spent the entire rest of the game building up to that point. I'm happy that the Onos is as durable as it is (even if shotguns are a bit too much). Returning the Onos to an endgame feature only forces that much more reliance on the Fade, and as I said, I don't like the idea of FadeTanks coming back. Last week I wrote that the Onos / Fade and lack of a third durable combat lifeform was a problem in NS1 and that this really unscores it. The Fade is now much weaker and cannot tank like it could in NS1, so without the Onos, what is there?
The Fade most certainly does need some durability back, but was anyone really happy with Fades flying in with their Jesus-pose, slapping away at a marine, and then floating back out to go metabolize in the hallway?
I think Fade durability could be improved without actually MAKING them more durable by giving them a considerable amount of damage resistance while they're blinking / shadowstepping. It stands to reason that much of their durability issues would be related to ping / lag. I shadowstep, but the MARINE doesn't see me shadowstep for another quarter of a second, so he fires upon me and I start taking damage, even though from my POV I'm now behind him.
It's the same problem with skulks being killed around corners, really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would do it the other way, honestly. Give base Fade a lot more durability but make them take tons of extra damage while using Shadowstep or Blink. Walking Fade is easy to hit, Fade flying all over the place isn't.
I've yet to see the 6minute onos in my pub games, and even then, in 10+ teams a 6 minute onos with little to no upgrades is a just a bullet sponge bound to die. This public strategy is only good if marines are uncoordinated. IE: You walk into their base <u>without being spotted</u> and kill power.
Also, if one more person suggests focus I'm going to lose my mind.
I win as an alien commander about 5 out of 6 times in pubs, and I've never dropped a six minute Onos. Not because I don't know about it, but because it puts far too much RNG on who grabs the Onos. Yeah, if a vet grabs it it's GG. If some random pubber grabs it it's GG, but the other way around. I drop Onos egg's after I already control the vast majority of the map, and that lets me drop two at a time. It's a much more guaranteed win vs. an early Onos, as an entire marine team of Shotguns <i>will</i> drop an early Onos that doesn't absolutely feel comfortable as a battering ram.
Plus, it's just a lame way to win. Kind of like the whole marine team rushing the alien hive, putting down an armory/turret battery and camping until the hive is toast, or having all the skulks rush the marine base in the first two seconds of the match. It might get you a win, but it isn't really 'fun' to win that way to me. Plus, no one gets experience as higher life forms playing that way, and frankly we need more people that know how to lerk/fade/onos properly.
There have been many maps where it's painful to watch newb players evolve and get mowed down in the marines turtle main base again and again as they shuffle around unsure of what to do, but it's how people learn what works and what doesn't. Although my screaming at them probably doesn't help some days lol ^_-
<!--quoteo(post=2011447:date=Nov 5 2012, 10:57 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 5 2012, 10:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011447"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They should really focus on bringing back features that worked in NS1. Like Focus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can get Focus and Acid Rocket if we can get HMGs and HA.
<!--quoteo(post=2011459:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:05 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Nov 5 2012, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can get Focus and Acid Rocket if we can get HMGs and HA.
Because Exos suck. I want HA back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Deal, but shotguns will have to be nerfed substantially. (and lmgs slightly weaked too to bring in HMGS).
Lists of wants:
1) Focus 2) Xenocide not sucking 3) Ranged Spores 4) Primal Scream (on lerks, not onos thx) 5) Acid Rocks 6) Metabolize 7) Celerity increasing base speed 8) Hive warp 9) NS1
this discussion doesn't really have a direction... in competitive play it's a problem which should be looked at, but wtf i have never had a problem with it in pub servers.
in pub servers you can just abuse the fact that you have more players than competitve (usually 8v8 versus the competitive 6v6 format - 40% more firepower), and pretty much any room where you have a phase gate is no-mans-land for the onos... because 0 pres marines can pour through the gate and rip it to shreds.
<!--quoteo(post=2011490:date=Nov 5 2012, 12:29 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 5 2012, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I stopped reading the OP at, "fades are perfectly viable alien lifeform," which to my credit is pretty late in the post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well, to my defend i can say i'm talking about public games, to me fade seems fine, they are next step from skulk, they have basicly same purpose but fade is just one step better.
and that's what this topic is about, 6min onoses ruins <b>PUBLIC GAMES</b> for me atleast, it has nothing to do is the GAME itself balanced, because i don't play competitive gameplay.
i hate 6min onoses while playing marine commander to see how my team fails to kill onos even when i advice them to buy sg's and surround him and move together and eventually lose all points one by one slowly because onos pushes marines down, goes back to heal, rest of alien team kills nodes, structures and chasing marines and repeat.
i hate 6min onoses while playing marine soldier for the same reason as above.
i hate 6min onoses while playing alien commander because if i don't follow this strickt strategy -> 2rt -> hive -> onos(or upgrades here) -> upgrades(or onos here) ( i might add, they HAVE TO BE carapace and celerity, no else will do ) i will get flamed and ejected and flamed for the rest of the game as noob and called i ruined the whole game.
i hate 6min onoses while playing alien skulk because i don't get any upgrades till onos egg is placed, commander ain't expanding anywhere and everything runs around onos, if he dies and we haven't had any points so far it's pretty much gg.
and i'm not kidding, i can't play 1-2hours without seeing this strategy in use.
all i'm asking, add onoses to end game where they belong. NOTHING ELSE, i'm not asking to nerf onoses, i'm not asking to chance anything else but to add onoses to end game only, aliens can handle early - mid game just fine without onoses, put a timer when you can morf to onos, like 10mins or something, i don't care.
I only play in KKG servers and pretty much never see 6min Onos. You can pretty much blame the awful Alien tech tree on 6min onos. You literally NEED the second hive to be able to do anything effective and its better to just get the Onos out if you have the res so you have something that can actually hurt the marine team instead of waiting until the 10minute mark for all your upgrades to be up.
And Fade is bad, horrible, terrible even in pubs. Fade is only viable for picking off lone marines, which a skulk or lerk can do and arguably I think the Lerk can do it better because he can traverse the map the fastest. Why would I spend 50res on something that can die in two hits. He's a hit and run Alien in a game where hit and run tactics don't work anymore because of the armory healing armor. His health pool is tiny, and I mean ###### small. How can all the marine guns from NS1 do the same amount of damage but the Fades health gets decreaed by about 300 from NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=2011197:date=Nov 5 2012, 09:02 AM:name=Juomari)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Juomari @ Nov 5 2012, 09:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011197"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->teching jetpack's and weapon 3 is not solution as it's impossible to do withing 6mins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Teching to lvl 2 not 3 is very possible by 6-8 mins. I do it all the time even with teams that are not so good
<!--quoteo(post=2011929:date=Nov 6 2012, 01:26 AM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Nov 6 2012, 01:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if 6 min onos is defending 4 res nodes + 2 tech points then its not really a balance issue<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No... no.... no... no... Want to see end game units at 6 mins in? Want the entirety of both teams tech trees at 6 mins into every-game?...
Pretty sure they already tried that, a thread of similar topic mentioned all the tweaking they've done during alpha/beta. Onos is absurdly expensive in terms of personal resources as is, even with the early drop through tres eggs if the marines actually get proper upgrades then the basic alien classes become obsolete in the first 6-10 minutes anyway (or at least a hell of a lot more difficult to make progress with if the marines don't shoot like stormtroopers).
If they were to actually make onos a 3 hive drop you can expect skulks (free) and fades to become significantly tougher, meaning instead of a 6 min onos you have an immediate skulk whose even harder than he was previously to make up for the extra effort needed to actually acquire 3 hives.
As someone stated at the beginning, you don't drop a change like that without considering how it affects both teams, and the strategies involved. Things are somewhat even right now, but only because the problems with both teams sort of cancel each other out. I would certainly love an endgame strategy with aliens that didn't involve onos spam, if they could make the other alien classes with potential endgame options.
while most would agree that the 5 minutes onos idea is really boring, it is not unbalanced. or it is competely uncounterable. marines excels at ninja phase gates and mobility. you can take my base. i will take your hive. lets see who lose at the end.
or get better servers and players.
but then although it is balanced in my point of view, i would also prefer not to see an end game product coming out 5 minutes into the game. this is not world of onos.
I think the fastest onos I've seen was like 4:52 by archea. They did lose it though, if somehow you think that an Onos in the first few minutes means a game is over, you're doing it wrong.
Comments
The Fade most certainly does need some durability back, but was anyone really happy with Fades flying in with their Jesus-pose, slapping away at a marine, and then floating back out to go metabolize in the hallway?
I think Fade durability could be improved without actually MAKING them more durable by giving them a considerable amount of damage resistance while they're blinking / shadowstepping. It stands to reason that much of their durability issues would be related to ping / lag. I shadowstep, but the MARINE doesn't see me shadowstep for another quarter of a second, so he fires upon me and I start taking damage, even though from my POV I'm now behind him.
It's the same problem with skulks being killed around corners, really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would do it the other way, honestly. Give base Fade a lot more durability but make them take tons of extra damage while using Shadowstep or Blink. Walking Fade is easy to hit, Fade flying all over the place isn't.
Also, if one more person suggests focus I'm going to lose my mind.
Plus, it's just a lame way to win. Kind of like the whole marine team rushing the alien hive, putting down an armory/turret battery and camping until the hive is toast, or having all the skulks rush the marine base in the first two seconds of the match. It might get you a win, but it isn't really 'fun' to win that way to me. Plus, no one gets experience as higher life forms playing that way, and frankly we need more people that know how to lerk/fade/onos properly.
There have been many maps where it's painful to watch newb players evolve and get mowed down in the marines turtle main base again and again as they shuffle around unsure of what to do, but it's how people learn what works and what doesn't. Although my screaming at them probably doesn't help some days lol ^_-
You can get Focus and Acid Rocket if we can get HMGs and HA.
Because Exos suck. I want HA back.
Because Exos suck. I want HA back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Deal, but shotguns will have to be nerfed substantially. (and lmgs slightly weaked too to bring in HMGS).
Lists of wants:
1) Focus
2) Xenocide not sucking
3) Ranged Spores
4) Primal Scream (on lerks, not onos thx)
5) Acid Rocks
6) Metabolize
7) Celerity increasing base speed
8) Hive warp
9) NS1
in pub servers you can just abuse the fact that you have more players than competitve (usually 8v8 versus the competitive 6v6 format - 40% more firepower), and pretty much any room where you have a phase gate is no-mans-land for the onos... because 0 pres marines can pour through the gate and rip it to shreds.
well, to my defend i can say i'm talking about public games, to me fade seems fine, they are next step from skulk, they have basicly same purpose but fade is just one step better.
and that's what this topic is about, 6min onoses ruins <b>PUBLIC GAMES</b> for me atleast, it has nothing to do is the GAME itself balanced, because i don't play competitive gameplay.
i hate 6min onoses while playing marine commander to see how my team fails to kill onos even when i advice them to buy sg's and surround him and move together and eventually lose all points one by one slowly because onos pushes marines down, goes back to heal, rest of alien team kills nodes, structures and chasing marines and repeat.
i hate 6min onoses while playing marine soldier for the same reason as above.
i hate 6min onoses while playing alien commander because if i don't follow this strickt strategy -> 2rt -> hive -> onos(or upgrades here) -> upgrades(or onos here) ( i might add, they HAVE TO BE carapace and celerity, no else will do ) i will get flamed and ejected and flamed for the rest of the game as noob and called i ruined the whole game.
i hate 6min onoses while playing alien skulk because i don't get any upgrades till onos egg is placed, commander ain't expanding anywhere and everything runs around onos, if he dies and we haven't had any points so far it's pretty much gg.
and i'm not kidding, i can't play 1-2hours without seeing this strategy in use.
all i'm asking, add onoses to end game where they belong. NOTHING ELSE, i'm not asking to nerf onoses, i'm not asking to chance anything else but to add onoses to end game only, aliens can handle early - mid game just fine without onoses, put a timer when you can morf to onos, like 10mins or something, i don't care.
And Fade is bad, horrible, terrible even in pubs. Fade is only viable for picking off lone marines, which a skulk or lerk can do and arguably I think the Lerk can do it better because he can traverse the map the fastest. Why would I spend 50res on something that can die in two hits. He's a hit and run Alien in a game where hit and run tactics don't work anymore because of the armory healing armor. His health pool is tiny, and I mean ###### small. How can all the marine guns from NS1 do the same amount of damage but the Fades health gets decreaed by about 300 from NS1.
Teching to lvl 2 not 3 is very possible by 6-8 mins. I do it all the time even with teams that are not so good
No... no.... no... no...
Want to see end game units at 6 mins in?
Want the entirety of both teams tech trees at 6 mins into every-game?...
Pretty sure they already tried that, a thread of similar topic mentioned all the tweaking they've done during alpha/beta. Onos is absurdly expensive in terms of personal resources as is, even with the early drop through tres eggs if the marines actually get proper upgrades then the basic alien classes become obsolete in the first 6-10 minutes anyway (or at least a hell of a lot more difficult to make progress with if the marines don't shoot like stormtroopers).
If they were to actually make onos a 3 hive drop you can expect skulks (free) and fades to become significantly tougher, meaning instead of a 6 min onos you have an immediate skulk whose even harder than he was previously to make up for the extra effort needed to actually acquire 3 hives.
As someone stated at the beginning, you don't drop a change like that without considering how it affects both teams, and the strategies involved. Things are somewhat even right now, but only because the problems with both teams sort of cancel each other out. I would certainly love an endgame strategy with aliens that didn't involve onos spam, if they could make the other alien classes with potential endgame options.
or get better servers and players.
but then although it is balanced in my point of view, i would also prefer not to see an end game product coming out 5 minutes into the game. this is not world of onos.