<!--quoteo(post=2012436:date=Nov 6 2012, 12:55 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 6 2012, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAtYGeFVdgU#t=12m" target="_blank">no, they do not</a>. I would really like to know how the fades could have played that better - is that not the definition of hit and run, what Gorgeous did? or do the forum elites posting in this thread have better advice for three players on inversion?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some observations about that engagement on that video:
- No blink, only shadow step. Blink is the main escape tool of the fade. Also, no evident use of the technique where you shadow step along the ground and jump right at the end, keeping momentum and getting a huge long leap with some air control. That technique beats that jump-step-jump stuff the fades were using in most cases. - The fade tried to run away in a straight line, making it easy for the marine to hit. - Fade play in that video also is not that stellar and it is probable that the fade players were a bit out of practice, since during some previous patches fade was unusable. - Marine had 3/2 upgrades and jetpack. Comm was nanoshielding and medspamming said marine, and still fades chose to engage. Attacking nanoshielded marines is usually a bad idea as a fade. - Marine got a somewhat lucky (and also skilled) full hit. With level 3 weapons.
Now, personally I am in favour of a small boost to fade base armour. Fade is a bit too pricey an investment currently, as it is too easy to lose the fade when you don't have both carapace and blink. I wouldn't put much stock in that video as evidence to support my point of view though.
<!--quoteo(post=2012490:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:56 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Nov 6 2012, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- No blink, only shadow step. Blink is the main escape tool of the fade. Also, no evident use of the technique where you shadow step along the ground and jump right at the end, keeping momentum and getting a huge long leap with some air control. That technique beats that jump-step-jump stuff the fades were using in most cases.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> it seems quite silly to me that a fade cannot be effective without upgrades, yet a 6 minute onos is worth rushing all the time and wins games without stomp. skulks are useless without leap, fades are useless without blink? isn't this just plain bad design? <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fade tried to run away in a straight line, making it easy for the marine to hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I mean, you can really only shadowstep in one direction, but I guess that goes back to the blink argument above.
<!--quoteo(post=2012490:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:56 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Nov 6 2012, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Marine got a somewhat lucky (and also skilled) full hit. With level 3 weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> out of curiosity, how do you feel about the shotgun spread? because judging from my POV, it was entirely luck, just because the same point blank shot does -66 damage. I would say that it was almost entirely luck :/
the one -220 damage shot, this just supports what I've been saying about level 3 weapons being completely absurd. it takes half a second for a fade to be in "royally boned" zone, and the followup is unavoidable.
<!--quoteo(post=2012490:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:56 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Nov 6 2012, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, personally I am in favour of a small boost to fade base armour. Fade is a bit too pricey an investment currently, as it is too easy to lose the fade when you don't have both carapace and blink. I wouldn't put much stock in that video as evidence to support my point of view though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> obviously it's a very isolated example, but look at the burden that you're placing on the fade player. all the marine has to do is aim his weapons 3 shotgun at the general direction of the fade, and you will randomly get 220 damage shots. the fade has to suddenly know all of these techniques for shadow stepping, has to have blink up, can't ever move predictably for half a second, can't attack nanoshielded marines, I mean, what is the cutoff here? at some point the level of execution is so much simpler that you have to call it "underpowered", no?
yes, the fades did not play perfectly - but why should they have to, with that much of an advantage? it really goes to show that no matter how far ahead you are, you <i>always</i> have to play passively as alien against w3, which is just idiotic when you compare it to the slow push of exos or arcs.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->do the forum elites posting in this thread have better advice for three players on inversion?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's rather silly to suggest that players from a beta clan in a game with a grand total of about two competitive US teams are playing at an amazing level.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it seems quite silly to me that a fade cannot be effective without upgrades, yet a 6 minute onos is worth rushing all the time and wins games without stomp. skulks are useless without leap, fades are useless without blink? isn't this just plain bad design?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much everyone agrees that the balance of lifeforms and overall gameplay on Aliens is terrible despite onos rush pub stomp winrates being even. Aside from the dev team that is.
By the way, this was immediately after... usually the way a shotgun works in every FPS is that you can interrupt the reload, but only in short 'bursts' between putting shells in.
pretty fair point minstrel. I just wanted to appeal to authority because it's also rather silly to suggest the fade is fine because of posts like these
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am by no means a good player, but I have myself stopped a (disorganized) four marine + exo hive assault singlehandedly as a fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2012494:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:02 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 6 2012, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it seems quite silly to me that a fade cannot be effective without upgrades, yet a 6 minute onos is worth rushing all the time and wins games without stomp. skulks are useless without leap, fades are useless without blink? isn't this just plain bad design?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fade without upgrades can be effective in early game. Can, but usually isn't. I personally couldn't reliably use an early fade to an effect worth those 50 res. The biggest problem here is that whenever you encounter more than 2 marines, you need to run for your life, and any mis-shadow-step can see you dead. I think the problem here isn't necessarily blink but the low-low-low base armour.
Btw. well trained fades with carapace and no blink will be effective. Leap also isn't nearly as necessary as before, since the wallhop works somewhat better and there is no knockback to speak of. Leap makes starting movement more reliable though, so it makes skulking more forgiving. I personally wouldn't consider leap such a necessity it was a few patches ago, but of course it is still an important upgrade. So while I do want to see some improvements in wallhop and maybe a slight skulk base speed increase, I do not consider leapless skulks useless.
<!--quoteo(post=2012494:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:02 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 6 2012, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I mean, you can really only shadowstep in one direction, but I guess that goes back to the blink argument above.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fade does several consecutive steps into the same direction, over open terran. He doesn't use cover (of the large colums for instance). There were other fades around so the shotgunner might have had less freedom to keep firing at the same target had that target made things more difficult for the shotgunner.
<!--quoteo(post=2012494:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:02 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 6 2012, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->out of curiosity, how do you feel about the shotgun spread? because judging from my POV, it was entirely luck, just because the same point blank shot does -66 damage. I would say that it was almost entirely luck :/
the one -220 damage shot, this just supports what I've been saying about level 3 weapons being completely absurd. it takes half a second for a fade to be in "royally boned" zone, and the followup is unavoidable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really don't have a strong opinion on the spread. Maybe I'll need to give it more thought. So far I haven't been especially annoyed by it.
<!--quoteo(post=2012494:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:02 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 6 2012, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->obviously it's a very isolated example, but look at the burden that you're placing on the fade player. all the marine has to do is aim his weapons 3 shotgun at the general direction of the fade, and you will randomly get 220 damage shots. the fade has to suddenly know all of these techniques for shadow stepping, has to have blink up, can't ever move predictably for half a second, can't attack nanoshielded marines, I mean, what is the cutoff here? at some point the level of execution is so much simpler that you have to call it "underpowered", no?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Key points here are: No blink, 3/2 jet-shotty with nano and meds. Also the marine and his commander play the situation well and spend that tres for spamming buffs. This advantage allows the marine to just barely get one fade down before dying. The marine doesn't play badly and has some luck on his side.
But yes, currently I think the fade is a bit too frail. It seems to be balanced around the earlier hidden-damage-reduction-blink-model and 10cm x 10cm hitbox-on-blink-fade-model (previous version bug). Also, much of the previous fade staying power was due to poorer performance. Personally I think the no-carapace fade should be something closer to 300/50 or 250/75 and the carapace should still give that 50 armour. I think that would go a long way to make earlier fades more viable, and it would hopefully still allow killing said fades.
<!--quoteo(post=2012508:date=Nov 6 2012, 11:16 AM:name=unkind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (unkind @ Nov 6 2012, 11:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->fade blows, sorry, comapred to 30 res worth of JP shotgun marine it's TRASH<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This, the key part there is "compared to 30 res JP / shotgun".
JP / shotgun, just like in NS1 (though you'd give them HMGs eventually I suppose), is far and away the most cost-effective marine weapon system.
Maybe Fades would be effective if you massed them? But generally I agree, he is so incredibly weak and has to run so early it's hard to get much done apart from picking off strays which isn't exactly productive (or anything a skulk couldn't do). Does his attack do full damage to armour at least?
The fade is probably going to be a source of major balance concerns in the future. If the game is currently roughly 50/50, then I don't even want to think what its going to be when the clueless masses learn how to actually use the Fade. The number of rookies I've seen walk right at marines trying to kill them, or who enter combat and stay unblinked for more than 3 or 4 seconds. Its horrifying how inept the vast (and I mean vast) majority of players are with the fade.
However, we have seen Fades go 30 for none very recently in <b>competitive </b>games where marine aim is far more unforgiving. When people actually learn to play, the fade is going to throw everything out of whack.
<!--quoteo(post=2012510:date=Nov 6 2012, 03:18 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Nov 6 2012, 03:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But yes, currently I think the fade is a bit too frail. It seems to be balanced around the earlier hidden-damage-reduction-blink-model and 10cm x 10cm hitbox-on-blink-fade-model (previous version bug). Also, much of the previous fade staying power was due to poorer performance. Personally I think the no-carapace fade should be something closer to 300/50 or 250/75 and the carapace should still give that 50 armour. I think that would go a long way to make earlier fades more viable, and it would hopefully still allow killing said fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah, I am upset that entire patches and changelogs went out the window when performance was increased and aliens were never restored to their former power. it's pretty obvious what happened, but for some reason a lot of changes were never reverted, even for testing purposes, after optimization was fixed. that's the entire point of the beta :P
as far as competitive play is concerned - I don't really see a way of buffing the fade to make it viable in the midgame without also making it silly when you have tres drops and the potential to have like, 3-4 fades up at once. arbitrary class limits are silly, but I don't know of any cleaner way to balance it.
<!--quoteo(post=2012353:date=Nov 6 2012, 07:04 AM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 6 2012, 07:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this argument about fades "hitting and running" is a joke. weapons 3 shotguns do way too much damage in too little time. the only reason it doesn't happen <i>every</i> time is because the shotgun's spread is so idiotically random that a point blank shot can do the same damage as a shot from 20 feet away. if the shotgun spread was remotely skill-based this wouldn't even be a discussion. it's just a horrible feature that's throwing balance completely out of the window when trying to figure something out as delicate as an asymmetrical competitive FPS / RTS.
not just that, but people can barely get consistent FPS in this game, so the numbers are <i>still</i> going to be off. as performance improves, hitscan aim is only going to improve, making the situation worse for fades and lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so what are you saying? it sounds like you're saying that without the shotgun, marines just have to stay in groups of 3-4 in order to just not get picked off 1 by 1 with no chance to kill the hit n run fade.... and that's your idea of a balanced fade?
hit n run is fantastic, you can get in there and take only what you can get safely before bailing out. if you can't finish off a marine but only get wounding swipes on several marines, then your skulk/lerk buddy has an easy job. meanwhile you can blink back to hive (assuming you don't have the balls to use regeneration, which is also viable as long as you change your playstyle to flee more often).
you can only die as fade if you over extend, and you have to ask yourself why the hell you decided to over extend with a 50 pres unit.
edit: i agree that FPS is an issue, but i have a 3 year old pc and ~60 fps. not ideal, but it will work until i can upgrade. fact is, after 30 or so hours i've decided that no game has ever been more deserving of a pc upgrade. i really hope the game doesn't die before it's time due to restricting performance demands, like UT3, but since it runs on my 3 year old beater - it's unlikely.
I find this thread to be quite funny. I got this game on friday. And bare in mind that I've never played NS1, so I have no background information on how the fade worked there. But I do have experience in other games, spesifically Starcraft, and multiple FPS shooter's. Even at a competive level.
I for one when I started did nothing but die. I rushed in left and right, didn't know how the evolve system worked or anything. Did know the power of the marine or the aliens even. I got everything told to me, while I was playing with the friend that showed me the game.
And I can't for the love of god see the problem with the fade. Depending on what you are up agains't in terms of upgrades, there are always a way to counter it. Sure, you can't take out a dual gun Exo up close, unless you are lucky like a beast, and good at dodging bullet's. But one gun exo's? No problem at all Taking out 1-2 marines? No problem there either Taking out 1Marine with Shotgun, W3, and A3 and jetpack? Doable, but it can be hard, unless you are very good at forseeing where they are going, and counting the second's they are able to stay in the air. Single marine with W3, A3 and shotgun? Not really a problem.
It call comes down to the player himself, and how well you use the adrenaline you are given. They have jetpack and shotguns? Get Adrenaline, Carapace and whatever you fancy, cloak or silence doesn't matter if they are good enough.
They are all footmobiles? Get Celerity, Carapace, and Camo, hid in the rafter's and wait for an opening.
It's all based on the player himself. If your job is to ward of one area or choke point by yourself, then get Regeneration, Adrenaline, and Camo.
I haven't had much problem's to be honest.
And for those saying that you are better off saving for an onos. Well. If a Marine has Jetpack, shotgun and W3, he can take out an Onos Single handedly, if he uses his surroundings properly.
I might be mad at stating all this, but so be it. Maybe I'm just a quick learner then, without bragging. As I don't seem to find an issue here at all.
(going back in-game. Need to practice commanding as Kharaa)
<!--quoteo(post=2012557:date=Nov 6 2012, 12:19 PM:name=Gertjan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gertjan @ Nov 6 2012, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imo fade is perfect in movement, blink is good etc... You can dodge alot, move fast etc... Movement is near perfect
Only thing that want to see changed is that the fade does more damage
Fade still needs 4 or 5 slashes against a marine with (i think) lvl 3 armor.. Fade is 50 res so imo fade should kill a marine with 3 slashes, maybe 4<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
fade kills marines fast enough already. 81 damage per 0.65 sec (65 base, but damage type puncture +25%).
that means 4 good swipes is 320 dmg = overkill... if the marine is already tagged then it's 3 swipes, or 3 plus a glancing swipe.
the weakness of fade, like skulk, is not damage - it's durability. but that's why you have wall jump, leap, wall walk, double jump, shadowstep and blink - you have the abilities to make yourself a hard target.
against a marine with godlike aim, you need to have godlike dodging reflexes. but isn't that the point of having an asymmetric game?
I don't really care about the competitive level. They can make Fades weaker in competitive play for all I care.
As long as they do something to make playing them more forgiving, and not so much "OH ###### we're kinda losing and I have a bunch of pres. I guess I gotta contribute. Oh ###### I just died."
I would personally like something along the lines of making the Fade energy bar 75% of what it is now in exchange for more 25 more armor.
<!--quoteo(post=2012561:date=Nov 6 2012, 01:24 PM:name=Zantiago)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zantiago @ Nov 6 2012, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012561"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It call comes down to the player himself, and how well you use the adrenaline you are given. They have jetpack and shotguns? Get Adrenaline, Carapace and whatever you fancy, cloak or silence doesn't matter if they are good enough.
They are all footmobiles? Get Celerity, Carapace, and Camo, hid in the rafter's and wait for an opening.
It's all based on the player himself. If your job is to ward of one area or choke point by yourself, then get Regeneration, Adrenaline, and Camo.
I haven't had much problem's to be honest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you ever consider that you just got lucky with pretty crappy marines so far? I mean seriously: Adren, Regen, Camo Fade?
Any Marines worth their bullets will just shred you a new one without Carapace and using Adren instead of celerity is simply a clutch for new players who can't get the hang of proper Adren management yet. Don't even get me started on using Camo to "hang out at choke points", yes that's about the best way to use one of the most mobile units in the game :/
Imho the Fade at least needs an small armor buff or some way to make him more durable into the late game, as it's right now Regen-Fade is not viable to play at all. Even playing with Cara you feel like a fly made out of paper once W3 is finished, it's just way too much damage output vs available HP/Armor so most of the time you end up wearing Marines down but having to retreat for healing before doing any actual damage/kills. It's like the Marines turned the whole "Hit&Run" principle around to use it against the Fade.
Maybe Blink should give invul again or make Blink "invisible" so it's harder to spot as an target (smaller hitbox?) and give Marine Commanders actually a reason to Scan vs Fades.
<!--quoteo(post=2012583:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:44 PM:name=Idleray)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Idleray @ Nov 6 2012, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012583"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really care about the competitive level. They can make Fades weaker in competitive play for all I care.
As long as they do something to make playing them more forgiving, and not so much "OH ###### we're kinda losing and I have a bunch of pres. I guess I gotta contribute. Oh ###### I just died."
I would personally like something along the lines of making the Fade energy bar 75% of what it is now in exchange for more 25 more armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well good sir. I'm not in on the competive scene, as I know they are doing fine there. However. Fade's are a very versatile unit, and can be so so dangerous in the right hand's. But you need to have the right mindset for it. More forgiving? You are asking for to much here, in my arrogant opinion. It cost's 50pres for a reason. What YOU do with it, is entierly up to you my friend. I have seen games where the marines had the entire map, and we were down to one single base, we had one Onos, One fade, and the rest was skulks. The marine commander had so much Tres, he could drop Exo's, one after the other, and at one given time, they had 6 exo's trying to get into our base. And what happened? The marines ended up loosing, one exo after the other, and didn't understand why.
They just lack the mindset on how to play them effectively. They had that game, and threw it like the Red Sox in the finals.
Unless you have the right mindset for any given game, feature, unit or gameplay, then you shouldn't complain about it not treating you correctly. You have to respect what you play, and the unit you play respectively. I lost SOOO many fade's, before I found the mindset I needed to play the fade I want to. You just need to find your own. Even if it takes you 50games or more, it's gonna be worth it in the end.
<!--quoteo(post=2012586:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:49 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Nov 6 2012, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012586"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you ever consider that you just got lucky with pretty crappy marines so far? I mean seriously: Adren, Regen, Camo Fade?
Any Marines worth their bullets will just shred you a new one without Carapace and using Adren instead of celerity is simply a clutch for new players who can't get the hang of proper Adren management yet. Don't even get me started on using Camo to "hang out at choke points", yes that's about the best way to use one of the most mobile units in the game :/
Imho the Fade at least needs an small armor buff or some way to make him more durable into the late game, as it's right now Regen-Fade is not viable to play at all. Even playing with Cara you feel like a fly made out of paper once W3 is finished, it's just way too much damage output vs available HP/Armor so most of the time you end up wearing Marines down but having to retreat for healing before doing any actual damage/kills. It's like the Marines turned the whole "Hit&Run" principle around to use it against the Fade.
Maybe Blink should give invul again or make Blink "invisible" so it's harder to spot as an target (smaller hitbox?) and give Marine Commanders actually a reason to Scan vs Fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So because you don't like those upgrades, and MY playstyle, they are immediately called off as a bad choice? Lack of experience, poor competition? I'm wondering if it's the fact you are to arrogant, or to ignorant that you actually made that comment of your's. So you are saying that I'm using my choice of upgrades wrong, given the situation, where as no situation has been explained throughly, so you are making that accusation based on your own experience then? Well excuse me, but it's not my fault you are unable to use your 50 worth of pres effectively. My playstyle have granted me a winratio way above 50%, and I always end up having enough pres to get a new fade, once I die. And I use my movement to my advantage aswell, I don't just stick around in the choke point, as you so arrogantly thought because you believe yourself to be so experienced and as such are acting like a tool. But there are always a time when Camo is better than Silence, and Regen is better than Carapace. But hey, that's up for you to decide apparently. My playstyle is apparently wrong.. (see all the complaint's I've written, asking about Fade's to be buffed/altered/fixed.. Oh wait)
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=119845" target="_blank">Shotgun spread is a rotating fixed pattern</a>, for what it's worth
<!--quoteo(post=2012592:date=Nov 6 2012, 01:52 PM:name=Zantiago)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zantiago @ Nov 6 2012, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So because you don't like those upgrades, and MY playstyle, they are immediately called off as a bad choice? Lack of experience, poor competition? I'm wondering if it's the fact you are to arrogant, or to ignorant that you actually made that comment of your's. So you are saying that I'm using my choice of upgrades wrong, given the situation, where as no situation has been explained throughly, so you are making that accusation based on your own experience then? Well excuse me, but it's not my fault you are unable to use your 50 worth of pres effectively. My playstyle have granted me a winratio way above 50%, and I always end up having enough pres to get a new fade, once I die. And I use my movement to my advantage aswell, I don't just stick around in the choke point, as you so arrogantly thought because you believe yourself to be so experienced and as such are acting like a tool. But there are always a time when Camo is better than Silence, and Regen is better than Carapace. But hey, that's up for you to decide apparently. My playstyle is apparently wrong.. (see all the complaint's I've written, asking about Fade's to be buffed/altered/fixed.. Oh wait)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This has nothing to do with your "playstyle" or a personal dislike for upgrades on my side. It has all to do with actual trade-offs and advantages for upgrades. And in that regard Adren is useless and a clutch in NS2, only there to give new players the option to just hold down the blink button without much consequence. In NS1 a Adren Fade had it's actual use, for Acid Rocket spamming. The NS2 Fade lacks any such abilities where an increased Adren pool would actually give an gameplay advantage in terms of "now you can do something you couldn't without Adren".
Same applies to Regen, due to the small map sizes in NS2, getting Regen as a Fade is all kinds of pointless. By the time Regen will fill you up to full health you could just as well have reached the next gorge/hive to heal up. So taking Regen does not gain you any advantage in terms of "less downtimes".
Look i've played NS1 for years fading on a competitive level, i've clocked around 350 hours on NS2, i'm not just talking out of my ass here to make you look "bad". Is there a use for cloak? Yes to screw around sometimes and give new marines some jump scares.. (Silence is still by far superior as it throws of peoples aim) Is there a use for Adren? Yes if you suck at managing your Adren.. (Celerity still wins out because the increased movement speed makes you a harder target) Is there a use for Regen? Sure if you want to pubstomp 0/0 Marines with horrible aim (Cara still wins out as explained above).
But all these are very specific, situational and not representative of the general gameplay, because they assume situations where you have an advantage already. In situations where it's balanced out and every side has to bring their "top game" to the round, all these tactics are sub-par and not desirable. Especially considering that you can't change upgrades without losing your Fade, so you want to play with the most "cookie cutter" upgrade selection possible most of the time.
Sure if your team has 4 hives, 6 RT's and contained the Marine team in their base you can go all kinds of silly upgrade choices as Res and Fade eggs are unlimited at that point, but that's not representative of the usual gameplay. When you Fade early/mid-game that's a huge res investment and if it doesn't pay off you might as well have lost the round for your team.
I don't agree one bit with the fade being near perfect. To me the fade should be really deadly and somewhat durable not the fade that was have today that has just slightly more lethality than a skulk and a moderate survivability boost.
To all the people complaining, hang in there. The fade has a very steep learning curve, and you have much less opportunity to practice it then as a skulk. I suggest practising by playing ridiculously safe. Eventually you will reach a point where you become aware of how much punishment you can take, and how long you can stand in one spot and suddenly you will become an awesome death dealing super fast moving machine.
Having said that, I am not satisfied the fade is fine as it is.
I am a pretty good pub fade. I am often one of those 30-5 fades on the team. Yet, whenever there is a really good marine on the other team I feel very afraid. One good marine with a shotgun, plus one average marine with an LMG can easily end your life.
Its my opinion that rather then there being a problem with the fade, there is a problem with shotguns. Shotguns just do too much burst damage vs all life forms. It doesn't seem right to me, from a balance persepctive or from a strategy perspective (in rts you want to have strategies whcih counter each other so that there can be skill in choosing your tech route). If skulks with cara were able to survive 1shotgun blast at least until lvl 2 or 3 weapons there would be something to be said for picking cara first.
Back to the fade however it just doesn't seem fair that a 20res investment which is very recyclable can put you on fairly even ground with a 50res investment. One good shotgun blast plus another marine shooting you with his lmg can easily kill you. Its dumb that if there is a shotgun marine around, I basically feel that I have to run unless they are totally alone even when I am using carapace.
Another way to look at balance is whether it is ever worth it to become a fade instead of an onos. I would say, that for the large majority of players, the answer is no. If you go fade, you are basically never going to have enough Pres to become an onos. The impact an onos has on the game is massive, the same can hardly be said of the fade. I go fade mainly because I think its fun, I am hoping for buffs in the future, and because often I feel that my team won't make it to onos without some support.
I think that in the alternative to a shotgun nerf, a slight buff to base fade armor would be appropriate 25-50. This might even allow for regen to be useable on fades. I would also like to see a buff to fade hive healing rate because everyone knows how much that sucks to sit at the hive 3/4 of your game.
<!--quoteo(post=2012626:date=Nov 6 2012, 03:33 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Nov 6 2012, 03:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012626"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This has nothing to do with your "playstyle" or a personal dislike for upgrades on my side. It has all to do with actual trade-offs and advantages for upgrades. And in that regard Adren is useless and a clutch in NS2, only there to give new players the option to just hold down the blink button without much consequence. In NS1 a Adren Fade had it's actual use, for Acid Rocket spamming. The NS2 Fade lacks any such abilities where an increased Adren pool would actually give an gameplay advantage in terms of "now you can do something you couldn't without Adren".
Same applies to Regen, due to the small map sizes in NS2, getting Regen as a Fade is all kinds of pointless. By the time Regen will fill you up to full health you could just as well have reached the next gorge/hive to heal up. So taking Regen does not gain you any advantage in terms of "less downtimes".
Look i've played NS1 for years fading on a competitive level, i've clocked around 350 hours on NS2, i'm not just talking out of my ass here to make you look "bad". Is there a use for cloak? Yes to screw around sometimes and give new marines some jump scares.. (Silence is still by far superior as it throws of peoples aim) Is there a use for Adren? Yes if you suck at managing your Adren.. (Celerity still wins out because the increased movement speed makes you a harder target) Is there a use for Regen? Sure if you want to pubstomp 0/0 Marines with horrible aim (Cara still wins out as explained above).
But all these are very specific, situational and not representative of the general gameplay, because they assume situations where you have an advantage already. In situations where it's balanced out and every side has to bring their "top game" to the round, all these tactics are sub-par and not desirable. Especially considering that you can't change upgrades without losing your Fade, so you want to play with the most "cookie cutter" upgrade selection possible most of the time.
Sure if your team has 4 hives, 6 RT's and contained the Marine team in their base you can go all kinds of silly upgrade choices as Res and Fade eggs are unlimited at that point, but that's not representative of the usual gameplay. When you Fade early/mid-game that's a huge res investment and if it doesn't pay off you might as well have lost the round for your team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed on all point's above. However I genuinly NEVER said that I always go with these upgrades, and I use them if the situation allows for them. In general, Carapace, Silence and Celerity is my go to upgrades, regardless of what Kharaa unit I am using. I am trying to get into competive play, simply because I believe I have something to bring to the table in term's of performance throughout my playstyle, and ability to adapt to what's happening on the map.
Everything you described is what I said, simply using other word's, and other set's of situation's. I've also played on server's where only clan's play and battle agains't eachother on larger scales, for instance 7v7, 8v8, upto and including 10v10, and there is a major diffrence there, from just rolling around on pub server's.
I'm still new to the game, but the basic's didn't take long to learn, if you are deadset on improving all the time. Regardless of that, I still see a use for the upgrades, depending on the situation. And you can even see Camo getting used in competive play, simply because of the ability it gives you to launch sneak attack's across the map. Nevertheless I never threw off any upgrades, and I mainly use the cookie cutter one myself. And I do in no mean's have issues controlling my energy when Using a fade, as it has been the most focused upon alien unit for a long while, I wanted to know if it's as weak as people want it to be. And my personal opinion about it, is that no, it's not as weak as previously stated. It just requires a whole new mindset to the gameplay of it.
Fade needs a durability buff. Right now it's at a basic 250 HP, 50 Armor, which can absorb, what, 350 damage? That means there's a significant chance of a 50 res Fade dying any time they go in against a single W1 marine with a 20 res shotgun. A marine can easily get two shots off in the time it takes a Fade to land a hit and bail out of the room. Carapace adds another measly 50 Armor, which is not nearly enough. Somebody will probably say "just dodge lol" but the fact is even with the best possible dodging, good marines are still going to land shots and this will become even more apparent as/if game performance/hitreg improves. 50 res for the current Fade is just not worth it, and judging by the competitive teams all going straight Onos, they agree.
Comments
Some observations about that engagement on that video:
- No blink, only shadow step. Blink is the main escape tool of the fade. Also, no evident use of the technique where you shadow step along the ground and jump right at the end, keeping momentum and getting a huge long leap with some air control. That technique beats that jump-step-jump stuff the fades were using in most cases.
- The fade tried to run away in a straight line, making it easy for the marine to hit.
- Fade play in that video also is not that stellar and it is probable that the fade players were a bit out of practice, since during some previous patches fade was unusable.
- Marine had 3/2 upgrades and jetpack. Comm was nanoshielding and medspamming said marine, and still fades chose to engage. Attacking nanoshielded marines is usually a bad idea as a fade.
- Marine got a somewhat lucky (and also skilled) full hit. With level 3 weapons.
Now, personally I am in favour of a small boost to fade base armour. Fade is a bit too pricey an investment currently, as it is too easy to lose the fade when you don't have both carapace and blink. I wouldn't put much stock in that video as evidence to support my point of view though.
it seems quite silly to me that a fade cannot be effective without upgrades, yet a 6 minute onos is worth rushing all the time and wins games without stomp. skulks are useless without leap, fades are useless without blink? isn't this just plain bad design?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fade tried to run away in a straight line, making it easy for the marine to hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mean, you can really only shadowstep in one direction, but I guess that goes back to the blink argument above.
<!--quoteo(post=2012490:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:56 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Nov 6 2012, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Marine got a somewhat lucky (and also skilled) full hit. With level 3 weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
out of curiosity, how do you feel about the shotgun spread? because judging from my POV, it was entirely luck, just because the same point blank shot does -66 damage. I would say that it was almost entirely luck :/
the one -220 damage shot, this just supports what I've been saying about level 3 weapons being completely absurd. it takes half a second for a fade to be in "royally boned" zone, and the followup is unavoidable.
<!--quoteo(post=2012490:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:56 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Nov 6 2012, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, personally I am in favour of a small boost to fade base armour. Fade is a bit too pricey an investment currently, as it is too easy to lose the fade when you don't have both carapace and blink. I wouldn't put much stock in that video as evidence to support my point of view though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
obviously it's a very isolated example, but look at the burden that you're placing on the fade player. all the marine has to do is aim his weapons 3 shotgun at the general direction of the fade, and you will randomly get 220 damage shots. the fade has to suddenly know all of these techniques for shadow stepping, has to have blink up, can't ever move predictably for half a second, can't attack nanoshielded marines, I mean, what is the cutoff here? at some point the level of execution is so much simpler that you have to call it "underpowered", no?
yes, the fades did not play perfectly - but why should they have to, with that much of an advantage? it really goes to show that no matter how far ahead you are, you <i>always</i> have to play passively as alien against w3, which is just idiotic when you compare it to the slow push of exos or arcs.
It's rather silly to suggest that players from a beta clan in a game with a grand total of about two competitive US teams are playing at an amazing level.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it seems quite silly to me that a fade cannot be effective without upgrades, yet a 6 minute onos is worth rushing all the time and wins games without stomp. skulks are useless without leap, fades are useless without blink? isn't this just plain bad design?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much everyone agrees that the balance of lifeforms and overall gameplay on Aliens is terrible despite onos rush pub stomp winrates being even. Aside from the dev team that is.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/M8MuU.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I don't think the shotgun balance is helped at all by being able to do that...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am by no means a good player, but I have myself stopped a (disorganized) four marine + exo hive assault singlehandedly as a fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fade without upgrades can be effective in early game. Can, but usually isn't. I personally couldn't reliably use an early fade to an effect worth those 50 res. The biggest problem here is that whenever you encounter more than 2 marines, you need to run for your life, and any mis-shadow-step can see you dead. I think the problem here isn't necessarily blink but the low-low-low base armour.
Btw. well trained fades with carapace and no blink will be effective. Leap also isn't nearly as necessary as before, since the wallhop works somewhat better and there is no knockback to speak of. Leap makes starting movement more reliable though, so it makes skulking more forgiving. I personally wouldn't consider leap such a necessity it was a few patches ago, but of course it is still an important upgrade. So while I do want to see some improvements in wallhop and maybe a slight skulk base speed increase, I do not consider leapless skulks useless.
<!--quoteo(post=2012494:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:02 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 6 2012, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I mean, you can really only shadowstep in one direction, but I guess that goes back to the blink argument above.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fade does several consecutive steps into the same direction, over open terran. He doesn't use cover (of the large colums for instance). There were other fades around so the shotgunner might have had less freedom to keep firing at the same target had that target made things more difficult for the shotgunner.
<!--quoteo(post=2012494:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:02 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 6 2012, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->out of curiosity, how do you feel about the shotgun spread? because judging from my POV, it was entirely luck, just because the same point blank shot does -66 damage. I would say that it was almost entirely luck :/
the one -220 damage shot, this just supports what I've been saying about level 3 weapons being completely absurd. it takes half a second for a fade to be in "royally boned" zone, and the followup is unavoidable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really don't have a strong opinion on the spread. Maybe I'll need to give it more thought. So far I haven't been especially annoyed by it.
<!--quoteo(post=2012494:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:02 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 6 2012, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->obviously it's a very isolated example, but look at the burden that you're placing on the fade player. all the marine has to do is aim his weapons 3 shotgun at the general direction of the fade, and you will randomly get 220 damage shots. the fade has to suddenly know all of these techniques for shadow stepping, has to have blink up, can't ever move predictably for half a second, can't attack nanoshielded marines, I mean, what is the cutoff here? at some point the level of execution is so much simpler that you have to call it "underpowered", no?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Key points here are: No blink, 3/2 jet-shotty with nano and meds. Also the marine and his commander play the situation well and spend that tres for spamming buffs. This advantage allows the marine to just barely get one fade down before dying. The marine doesn't play badly and has some luck on his side.
But yes, currently I think the fade is a bit too frail. It seems to be balanced around the earlier hidden-damage-reduction-blink-model and 10cm x 10cm hitbox-on-blink-fade-model (previous version bug). Also, much of the previous fade staying power was due to poorer performance. Personally I think the no-carapace fade should be something closer to 300/50 or 250/75 and the carapace should still give that 50 armour. I think that would go a long way to make earlier fades more viable, and it would hopefully still allow killing said fades.
This, the key part there is "compared to 30 res JP / shotgun".
JP / shotgun, just like in NS1 (though you'd give them HMGs eventually I suppose), is far and away the most cost-effective marine weapon system.
However, we have seen Fades go 30 for none very recently in <b>competitive </b>games where marine aim is far more unforgiving. When people actually learn to play, the fade is going to throw everything out of whack.
yeah, I am upset that entire patches and changelogs went out the window when performance was increased and aliens were never restored to their former power. it's pretty obvious what happened, but for some reason a lot of changes were never reverted, even for testing purposes, after optimization was fixed. that's the entire point of the beta :P
as far as competitive play is concerned - I don't really see a way of buffing the fade to make it viable in the midgame without also making it silly when you have tres drops and the potential to have like, 3-4 fades up at once. arbitrary class limits are silly, but I don't know of any cleaner way to balance it.
not just that, but people can barely get consistent FPS in this game, so the numbers are <i>still</i> going to be off. as performance improves, hitscan aim is only going to improve, making the situation worse for fades and lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so what are you saying? it sounds like you're saying that without the shotgun, marines just have to stay in groups of 3-4 in order to just not get picked off 1 by 1 with no chance to kill the hit n run fade.... and that's your idea of a balanced fade?
hit n run is fantastic, you can get in there and take only what you can get safely before bailing out. if you can't finish off a marine but only get wounding swipes on several marines, then your skulk/lerk buddy has an easy job. meanwhile you can blink back to hive (assuming you don't have the balls to use regeneration, which is also viable as long as you change your playstyle to flee more often).
you can only die as fade if you over extend, and you have to ask yourself why the hell you decided to over extend with a 50 pres unit.
edit: i agree that FPS is an issue, but i have a 3 year old pc and ~60 fps. not ideal, but it will work until i can upgrade. fact is, after 30 or so hours i've decided that no game has ever been more deserving of a pc upgrade. i really hope the game doesn't die before it's time due to restricting performance demands, like UT3, but since it runs on my 3 year old beater - it's unlikely.
Only thing that want to see changed is that the fade does more damage
Fade still needs 4 or 5 slashes against a marine with (i think) lvl 3 armor.. Fade is 50 res so imo fade should kill a marine with 3 slashes, maybe 4
I got this game on friday.
And bare in mind that I've never played NS1, so I have no background information on how the fade worked there.
But I do have experience in other games, spesifically Starcraft, and multiple FPS shooter's. Even at a competive level.
I for one when I started did nothing but die.
I rushed in left and right, didn't know how the evolve system worked or anything.
Did know the power of the marine or the aliens even.
I got everything told to me, while I was playing with the friend that showed me the game.
And I can't for the love of god see the problem with the fade.
Depending on what you are up agains't in terms of upgrades, there are always a way to counter it.
Sure, you can't take out a dual gun Exo up close, unless you are lucky like a beast, and good at dodging bullet's.
But one gun exo's? No problem at all
Taking out 1-2 marines? No problem there either
Taking out 1Marine with Shotgun, W3, and A3 and jetpack? Doable, but it can be hard, unless you are very good at forseeing where they are going, and counting the second's they are able to stay in the air.
Single marine with W3, A3 and shotgun? Not really a problem.
It call comes down to the player himself, and how well you use the adrenaline you are given.
They have jetpack and shotguns? Get Adrenaline, Carapace and whatever you fancy, cloak or silence doesn't matter if they are good enough.
They are all footmobiles? Get Celerity, Carapace, and Camo, hid in the rafter's and wait for an opening.
It's all based on the player himself. If your job is to ward of one area or choke point by yourself, then get Regeneration, Adrenaline, and Camo.
I haven't had much problem's to be honest.
And for those saying that you are better off saving for an onos. Well. If a Marine has Jetpack, shotgun and W3, he can take out an Onos Single handedly, if he uses his surroundings properly.
I might be mad at stating all this, but so be it. Maybe I'm just a quick learner then, without bragging.
As I don't seem to find an issue here at all.
(going back in-game. Need to practice commanding as Kharaa)
Only thing that want to see changed is that the fade does more damage
Fade still needs 4 or 5 slashes against a marine with (i think) lvl 3 armor.. Fade is 50 res so imo fade should kill a marine with 3 slashes, maybe 4<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
fade kills marines fast enough already. 81 damage per 0.65 sec (65 base, but damage type puncture +25%).
that means 4 good swipes is 320 dmg = overkill... if the marine is already tagged then it's 3 swipes, or 3 plus a glancing swipe.
the weakness of fade, like skulk, is not damage - it's durability. but that's why you have wall jump, leap, wall walk, double jump, shadowstep and blink - you have the abilities to make yourself a hard target.
against a marine with godlike aim, you need to have godlike dodging reflexes. but isn't that the point of having an asymmetric game?
As long as they do something to make playing them more forgiving, and not so much "OH ###### we're kinda losing and I have a bunch of pres. I guess I gotta contribute. Oh ###### I just died."
I would personally like something along the lines of making the Fade energy bar 75% of what it is now in exchange for more 25 more armor.
They have jetpack and shotguns? Get Adrenaline, Carapace and whatever you fancy, cloak or silence doesn't matter if they are good enough.
They are all footmobiles? Get Celerity, Carapace, and Camo, hid in the rafter's and wait for an opening.
It's all based on the player himself. If your job is to ward of one area or choke point by yourself, then get Regeneration, Adrenaline, and Camo.
I haven't had much problem's to be honest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you ever consider that you just got lucky with pretty crappy marines so far?
I mean seriously: Adren, Regen, Camo Fade?
Any Marines worth their bullets will just shred you a new one without Carapace and using Adren instead of celerity is simply a clutch for new players who can't get the hang of proper Adren management yet. Don't even get me started on using Camo to "hang out at choke points", yes that's about the best way to use one of the most mobile units in the game :/
Imho the Fade at least needs an small armor buff or some way to make him more durable into the late game, as it's right now Regen-Fade is not viable to play at all. Even playing with Cara you feel like a fly made out of paper once W3 is finished, it's just way too much damage output vs available HP/Armor so most of the time you end up wearing Marines down but having to retreat for healing before doing any actual damage/kills. It's like the Marines turned the whole "Hit&Run" principle around to use it against the Fade.
Maybe Blink should give invul again or make Blink "invisible" so it's harder to spot as an target (smaller hitbox?) and give Marine Commanders actually a reason to Scan vs Fades.
As long as they do something to make playing them more forgiving, and not so much "OH ###### we're kinda losing and I have a bunch of pres. I guess I gotta contribute. Oh ###### I just died."
I would personally like something along the lines of making the Fade energy bar 75% of what it is now in exchange for more 25 more armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well good sir.
I'm not in on the competive scene, as I know they are doing fine there.
However. Fade's are a very versatile unit, and can be so so dangerous in the right hand's.
But you need to have the right mindset for it.
More forgiving?
You are asking for to much here, in my arrogant opinion.
It cost's 50pres for a reason. What YOU do with it, is entierly up to you my friend.
I have seen games where the marines had the entire map, and we were down to one single base, we had one Onos, One fade, and the rest was skulks.
The marine commander had so much Tres, he could drop Exo's, one after the other, and at one given time, they had 6 exo's trying to get into our base. And what happened?
The marines ended up loosing, one exo after the other, and didn't understand why.
They just lack the mindset on how to play them effectively.
They had that game, and threw it like the Red Sox in the finals.
Unless you have the right mindset for any given game, feature, unit or gameplay, then you shouldn't complain about it not treating you correctly. You have to respect what you play, and the unit you play respectively.
I lost SOOO many fade's, before I found the mindset I needed to play the fade I want to. You just need to find your own. Even if it takes you 50games or more, it's gonna be worth it in the end.
<!--quoteo(post=2012586:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:49 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Nov 6 2012, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012586"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you ever consider that you just got lucky with pretty crappy marines so far?
I mean seriously: Adren, Regen, Camo Fade?
Any Marines worth their bullets will just shred you a new one without Carapace and using Adren instead of celerity is simply a clutch for new players who can't get the hang of proper Adren management yet. Don't even get me started on using Camo to "hang out at choke points", yes that's about the best way to use one of the most mobile units in the game :/
Imho the Fade at least needs an small armor buff or some way to make him more durable into the late game, as it's right now Regen-Fade is not viable to play at all. Even playing with Cara you feel like a fly made out of paper once W3 is finished, it's just way too much damage output vs available HP/Armor so most of the time you end up wearing Marines down but having to retreat for healing before doing any actual damage/kills. It's like the Marines turned the whole "Hit&Run" principle around to use it against the Fade.
Maybe Blink should give invul again or make Blink "invisible" so it's harder to spot as an target (smaller hitbox?) and give Marine Commanders actually a reason to Scan vs Fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So because you don't like those upgrades, and MY playstyle, they are immediately called off as a bad choice?
Lack of experience, poor competition?
I'm wondering if it's the fact you are to arrogant, or to ignorant that you actually made that comment of your's.
So you are saying that I'm using my choice of upgrades wrong, given the situation, where as no situation has been explained throughly, so you are making that accusation based on your own experience then?
Well excuse me, but it's not my fault you are unable to use your 50 worth of pres effectively.
My playstyle have granted me a winratio way above 50%, and I always end up having enough pres to get a new fade, once I die.
And I use my movement to my advantage aswell, I don't just stick around in the choke point, as you so arrogantly thought because you believe yourself to be so experienced and as such are acting like a tool.
But there are always a time when Camo is better than Silence, and Regen is better than Carapace.
But hey, that's up for you to decide apparently. My playstyle is apparently wrong.. (see all the complaint's I've written, asking about Fade's to be buffed/altered/fixed.. Oh wait)
Lack of experience, poor competition?
I'm wondering if it's the fact you are to arrogant, or to ignorant that you actually made that comment of your's.
So you are saying that I'm using my choice of upgrades wrong, given the situation, where as no situation has been explained throughly, so you are making that accusation based on your own experience then?
Well excuse me, but it's not my fault you are unable to use your 50 worth of pres effectively.
My playstyle have granted me a winratio way above 50%, and I always end up having enough pres to get a new fade, once I die.
And I use my movement to my advantage aswell, I don't just stick around in the choke point, as you so arrogantly thought because you believe yourself to be so experienced and as such are acting like a tool.
But there are always a time when Camo is better than Silence, and Regen is better than Carapace.
But hey, that's up for you to decide apparently. My playstyle is apparently wrong.. (see all the complaint's I've written, asking about Fade's to be buffed/altered/fixed.. Oh wait)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This has nothing to do with your "playstyle" or a personal dislike for upgrades on my side. It has all to do with actual trade-offs and advantages for upgrades. And in that regard Adren is useless and a clutch in NS2, only there to give new players the option to just hold down the blink button without much consequence. In NS1 a Adren Fade had it's actual use, for Acid Rocket spamming. The NS2 Fade lacks any such abilities where an increased Adren pool would actually give an gameplay advantage in terms of "now you can do something you couldn't without Adren".
Same applies to Regen, due to the small map sizes in NS2, getting Regen as a Fade is all kinds of pointless. By the time Regen will fill you up to full health you could just as well have reached the next gorge/hive to heal up. So taking Regen does not gain you any advantage in terms of "less downtimes".
Look i've played NS1 for years fading on a competitive level, i've clocked around 350 hours on NS2, i'm not just talking out of my ass here to make you look "bad".
Is there a use for cloak? Yes to screw around sometimes and give new marines some jump scares.. (Silence is still by far superior as it throws of peoples aim) Is there a use for Adren? Yes if you suck at managing your Adren.. (Celerity still wins out because the increased movement speed makes you a harder target) Is there a use for Regen? Sure if you want to pubstomp 0/0 Marines with horrible aim (Cara still wins out as explained above).
But all these are very specific, situational and not representative of the general gameplay, because they assume situations where you have an advantage already. In situations where it's balanced out and every side has to bring their "top game" to the round, all these tactics are sub-par and not desirable. Especially considering that you can't change upgrades without losing your Fade, so you want to play with the most "cookie cutter" upgrade selection possible most of the time.
Sure if your team has 4 hives, 6 RT's and contained the Marine team in their base you can go all kinds of silly upgrade choices as Res and Fade eggs are unlimited at that point, but that's not representative of the usual gameplay. When you Fade early/mid-game that's a huge res investment and if it doesn't pay off you might as well have lost the round for your team.
Having said that, I am not satisfied the fade is fine as it is.
I am a pretty good pub fade. I am often one of those 30-5 fades on the team. Yet, whenever there is a really good marine on the other team I feel very afraid. One good marine with a shotgun, plus one average marine with an LMG can easily end your life.
Its my opinion that rather then there being a problem with the fade, there is a problem with shotguns. Shotguns just do too much burst damage vs all life forms. It doesn't seem right to me, from a balance persepctive or from a strategy perspective (in rts you want to have strategies whcih counter each other so that there can be skill in choosing your tech route). If skulks with cara were able to survive 1shotgun blast at least until lvl 2 or 3 weapons there would be something to be said for picking cara first.
Back to the fade however it just doesn't seem fair that a 20res investment which is very recyclable can put you on fairly even ground with a 50res investment. One good shotgun blast plus another marine shooting you with his lmg can easily kill you. Its dumb that if there is a shotgun marine around, I basically feel that I have to run unless they are totally alone even when I am using carapace.
Another way to look at balance is whether it is ever worth it to become a fade instead of an onos. I would say, that for the large majority of players, the answer is no. If you go fade, you are basically never going to have enough Pres to become an onos. The impact an onos has on the game is massive, the same can hardly be said of the fade. I go fade mainly because I think its fun, I am hoping for buffs in the future, and because often I feel that my team won't make it to onos without some support.
I think that in the alternative to a shotgun nerf, a slight buff to base fade armor would be appropriate 25-50. This might even allow for regen to be useable on fades. I would also like to see a buff to fade hive healing rate because everyone knows how much that sucks to sit at the hive 3/4 of your game.
Same applies to Regen, due to the small map sizes in NS2, getting Regen as a Fade is all kinds of pointless. By the time Regen will fill you up to full health you could just as well have reached the next gorge/hive to heal up. So taking Regen does not gain you any advantage in terms of "less downtimes".
Look i've played NS1 for years fading on a competitive level, i've clocked around 350 hours on NS2, i'm not just talking out of my ass here to make you look "bad".
Is there a use for cloak? Yes to screw around sometimes and give new marines some jump scares.. (Silence is still by far superior as it throws of peoples aim) Is there a use for Adren? Yes if you suck at managing your Adren.. (Celerity still wins out because the increased movement speed makes you a harder target) Is there a use for Regen? Sure if you want to pubstomp 0/0 Marines with horrible aim (Cara still wins out as explained above).
But all these are very specific, situational and not representative of the general gameplay, because they assume situations where you have an advantage already. In situations where it's balanced out and every side has to bring their "top game" to the round, all these tactics are sub-par and not desirable. Especially considering that you can't change upgrades without losing your Fade, so you want to play with the most "cookie cutter" upgrade selection possible most of the time.
Sure if your team has 4 hives, 6 RT's and contained the Marine team in their base you can go all kinds of silly upgrade choices as Res and Fade eggs are unlimited at that point, but that's not representative of the usual gameplay. When you Fade early/mid-game that's a huge res investment and if it doesn't pay off you might as well have lost the round for your team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed on all point's above.
However I genuinly NEVER said that I always go with these upgrades, and I use them if the situation allows for them.
In general, Carapace, Silence and Celerity is my go to upgrades, regardless of what Kharaa unit I am using.
I am trying to get into competive play, simply because I believe I have something to bring to the table in term's of performance throughout my playstyle, and ability to adapt to what's happening on the map.
Everything you described is what I said, simply using other word's, and other set's of situation's.
I've also played on server's where only clan's play and battle agains't eachother on larger scales, for instance 7v7, 8v8, upto and including 10v10, and there is a major diffrence there, from just rolling around on pub server's.
I'm still new to the game, but the basic's didn't take long to learn, if you are deadset on improving all the time.
Regardless of that, I still see a use for the upgrades, depending on the situation.
And you can even see Camo getting used in competive play, simply because of the ability it gives you to launch sneak attack's across the map.
Nevertheless I never threw off any upgrades, and I mainly use the cookie cutter one myself.
And I do in no mean's have issues controlling my energy when Using a fade, as it has been the most focused upon alien unit for a long while, I wanted to know if it's as weak as people want it to be. And my personal opinion about it, is that no, it's not as weak as previously stated. It just requires a whole new mindset to the gameplay of it.
I just can't justify spending 50 res on them.