<!--quoteo(post=2012227:date=Nov 6 2012, 05:31 AM:name=Sharp-Shooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sharp-Shooter @ Nov 6 2012, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree, i have killed fades in the past with 2 well placed shotgun blasts, and i also got killed by 2 blasts as well.
But to me the problem is not the fade, its mostly the OP shotgun level 3, its ridiculous, i remember one time i was fade, i had 90hp remaining and got 1 shotted by a shotty from 100+feet or something, it has no spread or drop off damage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No... Because those OP shotguns still <i>balanced</i> at taking down onos. Therefore you will find is the Fades that are broken.
Skulks should be killed in 1 hit late game. (not to GLs but thats a different story) Stop trying to pretend the shotgun is OP so you can get away with using skulk late game, even if it is more viable than fade at the moment ... xD
<!--quoteo(post=2012243:date=Nov 5 2012, 10:41 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 5 2012, 10:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No... Because those OP shotguns still <i>balanced</i> at taking down onos. Therefore you will find is the Fades that are broken.
Skulks should be killed in 1 hit late game. (not to GLs but thats a different story) Stop trying to pretend the shotgun is OP so you can get away with using skulk late game, <b>even if it is more viable than fade at the moment ... xD</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Emphasis mine.
That's kinda the problem. 50res and you're marginally more effective than the base unit in a straight fight. And with barely any enhanced movement to get a better jump on the enemy (at least in NS1 the Blink was way fast and had glorious momentum). And a larger hitbox.
<!--quoteo(post=2012227:date=Nov 6 2012, 01:31 AM:name=Sharp-Shooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sharp-Shooter @ Nov 6 2012, 01:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree, i have killed fades in the past with 2 well placed shotgun blasts, and i also got killed by 2 blasts as well.
But to me the problem is not the fade, its mostly the OP shotgun level 3, its ridiculous, i remember one time i was fade, i had 90hp remaining and got 1 shotted by a shotty from 100+feet or something, it has no spread or drop off damage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think the shotty range does seem a tad high even with the spread. it is 30(m) now. there isnt that much LOS in the maps longer than 30. you can plink weakened critters Or structures from pretty far away.
<!--quoteo(post=2012243:date=Nov 6 2012, 12:41 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 6 2012, 12:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stop trying to pretend the shotgun is OP so you can get away with using skulk late game, even if it is more viable than fade at the moment ... xD<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like how great care was taken to ensure the lmg was viable late game but skulks must not be allowed to have a chance late game.
<!--quoteo(post=2012267:date=Nov 6 2012, 05:55 AM:name=Sops)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sops @ Nov 6 2012, 05:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like how great care was taken to ensure the lmg was viable late game but skulks must not be allowed to have a chance late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And the problem there is that in order to PRESERVE the LMG they removed the HMG but by removing the HMG all they forced the shotgun into becoming an early game gun that was also the late game gun... thus making it broken.
That's kinda the problem. 50res and you're marginally more effective than the base unit in a straight fight. And with barely any enhanced movement to get a better jump on the enemy (at least in NS1 the Blink was way fast and had glorious momentum). And a larger hitbox.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS1 fade had to counter HMG Jetpacks, they were equally as crazy at dealing death as the fade. Due to no HMG Jetpacks I dont expect NS2 fade to be the same level as godlyness as it was.
However in NS1 we had: More hp, faster blink (jps are alot slower now as well), focus, no nano-armour, acid rocket, metabolism and no armour healing armouries. NS2 needs SOME of these, not all of them... but SOME of them.
<!--quoteo(post=2012269:date=Nov 6 2012, 12:56 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 6 2012, 12:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the problem there is that in order to PRESERVE the LMG they removed the HMG but by removing the HMG all they forced the shotgun into becoming an early game gun that was also the late game gun... thus making it broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well I agree that the HMG should be put back into the game and rebalance the shotgun and LMG but that is not going to happen because according to the devs all equipment and lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game.
Currently that is only being applied to marines and aliens are getting the short end of the stick.
>according to the devs all equipment and lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game. >all equipment and lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game. >all lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game. >all lifeforms >should be viable at all points in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2012289:date=Nov 5 2012, 10:10 PM:name=Ansom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ansom @ Nov 5 2012, 10:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012289"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->>according to the devs all equipment and lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game. >all equipment and lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game. >all lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game. >all lifeforms >should be viable at all points in the game.
Ha ha ha...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro-->>according to the devs all equipment and lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game. >all equipment and lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game. >all lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game. >all lifeforms >should be viable at all points in the game.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=2012221:date=Nov 6 2012, 12:28 AM:name=Soulfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soulfighter @ Nov 6 2012, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i killed 4 marines alone as a skulk yesterday, skulks are imbalanced imo, or maybe they were bad marines, who knows.
Now let me explain to you why you're wrong.
Fade: health : 250 armor : 50 , with carapace : 100
shotguns deal normal damage; 2 points of normal damage is needed to get rid of 1 point of armor
effective health against shotguns : 350 , with carapace : 450
shotgun dmg at close range : 17 x 10 = 170 shotgun dmg at close range with weapon upgrade lvl 3 : 170+30% = 210
it takes only 2 shots of a lvl 1 shotgun and a sneeze to kill you without carapace and your model/hitbox is freaking huge so anyone who's not a complete noob will just hit you easly. If you take carapace on the other hand, you'll be able to blink in and out of fights vs average/good marines without instantly die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're getting hit with two perfect shotgun blasts then you're picking your fights poorly. The fade's mobility allows it to decide when and where a fight takes place.
It seems like people just want the fade to be easy mode. Blink in with zero stealth or surprise, soak up damage from 5 different marines while killing a target, and blink out with zero creativity or thought. If you want to play like that then get an Onos. The fade is a finesse class with the ability to severely punish any marine mistakes.
The thing UWE needs to ask themselves is what is actually possible to achieve using that 50 res, and if its really worth 50 res. So far the answer most of the time is no. In 221 in terms of res cost it was slightly better than a shotgun jetpacker which is what it is about equal to in res cost. What would be best is that like adhd said the exo fills a extra role, and the onos needs to be moved to that role as well, with the fade filling all the tech usefulness after the lerk.
And the there is the thing about shotguns. People say "well just get good and attack when they are not looking". but any good marine with a higher than w1 shotgun will turn around and blast you in the face with all of his pellets most of the time, and then you will have half of that health he just dealt in damage to escape. All the risk for what, 2-3 swipes? Even if you are super pro and can not only do this in solo but actually distract for your team is this really worth a 50 res lifeform, when something like the lerk can support and deal damage to shotgunners because of how good spikes are now? Super-skulk,or super-res-sink?
Would first like to see UWE clear up the visual implementation of fade blinking/shadowstep. More than anything its muddying the experience of people at different skill levels, making universal 'balance' something really hard to actually get at.
Kind of see the same thing with exo. So much exo balance is dependant on visual obstruction. Its not just gorge bilebomb, its sound, gun smoke/muzzle flashes, great flashing bullet impact smoke effects that throw you off, landing smoke, jumpjet smoke, small vertical fov etc.
<!--quoteo(post=2012317:date=Nov 6 2012, 06:35 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 6 2012, 06:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012317"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing UWE needs to ask themselves is what is actually possible to achieve using that 50 res, and if its really worth 50 res. So far the answer most of the time is no. In 221 in terms of res cost it was slightly better than a shotgun jetpacker which is what it is about equal to in res cost. What would be best is that like adhd said the exo fills a extra role, and the onos needs to be moved to that role as well, with the fade filling all the tech usefulness after the lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Duel Exo does fill a role, I do agree that single exo is pointless due to being 20-30 seconds earlier ... half the fire power, same slow speed and cant weld itself.
Duel Exo and Onos should be LATE GAME Tech as you have said... In the gap before that I want my fade to not be a gimpy and useless.
For my 50 res I want 66% of an onos... I want to be able to e 66% as durable, be that by being twice harder to hit and half the hp or 4x harder to hit and 1/4 the hp. I want to have 66% the damage of an onos or I want 100% Of the damage but less health because I do the same dmg as a 75 res life form... I want balance.
I dont want a slight upgrade to the skulk passed off as a 50 res life form. It is obveous that a shotgun is better than a LMG and it is obveous that a Jetpack Shotgun is better than a Shotgun.
It shouldnt be ###### impossible to work out why a fade is better than a skulk despite it costing 50 res.
<!--quoteo(post=2012284:date=Nov 5 2012, 10:07 PM:name=Sops)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sops @ Nov 5 2012, 10:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well I agree that the HMG should be put back into the game and rebalance the shotgun and LMG but that is not going to happen because according to the devs all equipment and lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game.
Currently that is only being applied to marines and aliens are getting the short end of the stick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you tried to take down an Onos with an LMG?
Because that ###### ain't happenin'.
Most of the complaints I've heard from the Alien side is that 'Fade can't run into three Marines all armed with Shotguns and win' and 'One Onos can't run into a Marine base and solo the entire teched Marine team and smash everything by themselves.
I can't think of the last time I heard theorycrafting involving equal numbers of Marines and Aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=2012306:date=Nov 5 2012, 10:23 PM:name=Plunkies)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Plunkies @ Nov 5 2012, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're getting hit with two perfect shotgun blasts then you're picking your fights poorly.
The fade is a finesse class with the ability to severely punish any marine mistakes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're implying 2 things:
1. Fades can't pick up a fight versus a shotgun marine or if they can, they shouldn't be hit by him twice. 2. Fades can severely punish marines
it takes like 4 hits to kill a marine mid/lategame (5 for a skulk ), now tell me, in what situation an average good marine would get hit 4 times at melee range and not possibly get 2 clear shots at a fade ? Preferably a situation where no other, cheaper, life form would perform just as well, if not better then a fade.
<!--quoteo(post=2012326:date=Nov 6 2012, 06:45 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Nov 6 2012, 06:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012326"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you tried to take down an Onos with an LMG? Because that ###### ain't happenin'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You shouldnt have to take down an Onos with an LMG unless you are really losing. Onos is late game tech and should be only available late game.
<!--quoteo(post=2012326:date=Nov 6 2012, 06:45 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Nov 6 2012, 06:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012326"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most of the complaints I've heard from the Alien side is that 'Fade can't run into three Marines all armed with Shotguns and win' and 'One Onos can't run into a Marine base and solo the entire teched Marine team and smash everything by themselves.
I can't think of the last time I heard theorycrafting involving equal numbers of Marines and Aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The complaint is that a fade can be instantly killed by 2 shots from shotguns. Two marines can one hit kill a fade.
I agree that Two marines should be able to Kill a fade. But Two marines being able to One shot a fade whilst a fade would take 8 swipes to kill them both. Its a little broken.
<!--quoteo(post=2012325:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:45 AM:name=Simini)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Simini @ Nov 6 2012, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At 50 res you do know the fade should be as powerful as a power hand exo? seriously why are marines favored so much more than the Aliens. <u></u> The fade should be as strong as the 1 arm exo, but the fade doesn't even stand a chance against a couple of marines, forget trying to kill an exo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
dont forget the time and res it requires to get the exo. research, second Comstation, adv armoury, proto.
<!--quoteo(post=2011972:date=Nov 5 2012, 09:10 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Nov 5 2012, 09:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011972"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In very recent builds our fade has become a paper thin movement gimmick. Even with the bugged out and extremely small blinking model, the fade was pretty much useless in turning the tide of games. I was first annoyed that fades could rarely be shot while in blink but now I realize it's kind of essential if you don't want to die before even getting close enough to engage a marine.
[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ADHd - Although I don't have a strong viewpoint either way, just to play the devil's advocate, I'd point out that when I watch competitive casts, including yours, I certainly don't get the sense that fade is underpowered. I still see fades regularly on 10 or 20 kill streaks, and surviving most engagements with marines. If fades were so bad, clans wouldn't use them, but have you ever seen a match where aliens evolved no fades even when they had p-res for it? Even when aliens have choice b/w fade and onos late game, many times alien players will choose fade b/c onos have their own drawbacks.
Comparing ns2 fade to ns1, I'd point out one important difference: ns2 has a different res model, notably you no longer get res for kills. In ns1, the dominant skulk would get to go fade first and fade timing is staggered onto the battlefield. In contrast, in ns2, the entire alien team can go fade virtually at the same time, meaning that marines can suddenly be facing down 4 fades at the same time in a 6v6, which can often be overwhelming. I definitely feel that if aliens actually survive to evolve fades, they are statistically favoured to win the match, in large part because of how fade turns the tide of battle against marines.
It's also not fair to compare fade to early onos. I feel early onos is a bit overpowered and should probably be taken out of the game, and I think a lot of players agree. Fade can't compete with that because early onos is broken right now. On the other hand, early onos is often what's keeping aliens in the game, so if they take it out aliens might need a boost, perhaps for fade.
Certainly you feel fragile as fade when you can go down to 2 shottie hits, but is there actually hard evidence that fade is underpowered? Maybe this is what the game needs to be balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=2012341:date=Nov 6 2012, 06:55 AM:name=Evil_Sheep)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_Sheep @ Nov 6 2012, 06:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A: Fade doesnt seem weak in comp play B: Onos drop is over powered need to be removed C: Why do competitive teams use fade if its so bad?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades don't seem weak? I see them get slaughtered in most matches I have seen.
Onos drop will be removed soon (hopefully!!!) and then the competitive teams will have to rely on their fades... only then will we see the true state of balance... I think it will be horrific...
They dont... Onos drop comes out at 5-6 mins, first fade probably 8-10 mins... I imagine the only reason people get fade anymore in competitive games is because they might as well spend their res... The comm will be able to drop them an onos egg MUCH earlier than they can save for one so there is no point saving for onos... they might as well use a fade even if it is sub par whilst they wait for their onos egg to be dropped. xD
<!--quoteo(post=2012336:date=Nov 5 2012, 10:52 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 5 2012, 10:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->dont forget the time and res it requires to get the exo. research, second Comstation, adv armoury, proto.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since the game was released i have constantly and only played the Aliens, the fade isn't even worth considering without carapace and depending on the commander that may be the very last thing he decides to research, so there is a long waiting game there as well.
I believe Marine commander and the normal marines have separate res to spend on whatever each unit wants, so if the exo becomes available he can spend the same amount of resources as it would take to buy a fade, on a exo, an exo that fades would die almost instantly against.
If you ask me that right there is a huge imbalance, do take this with a pinch of salt since i have never been on the marine side of things.
<!--quoteo(post=2012326:date=Nov 6 2012, 01:45 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Nov 6 2012, 01:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012326"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most of the complaints I've heard from the Alien side is that 'Fade can't run into three Marines all armed with Shotguns and win' and 'One Onos can't run into a Marine base and solo the entire teched Marine team and smash everything by themselves.
I can't think of the last time I heard theorycrafting involving equal numbers of Marines and Aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My complaint is that the entire marine team can get shotguns within the first few minutes of the game and rush the hive and destroy it because skulks, gorges, lerks and fades "...doesn't actually need to kill things..."
Every class aliens have other then Onos has been turned into a support class. If the point of the game is to drop a two minute onos egg and then have everyone else on the team support that Onos then you are talking about a very boring game.
<!--quoteo(post=2012341:date=Nov 5 2012, 10:55 PM:name=Evil_Sheep)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_Sheep @ Nov 5 2012, 10:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Certainly you feel fragile as fade when you can go down to 2 shottie hits, but is there actually hard evidence that fade is underpowered? Maybe this is what the game needs to be balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the main point is they're fairly useless lategame, we're not saying that the fade is absolutly horrible and unplayable at every moment in the game, it's just that its impact on the game when marines have weap/armor lvl 3 and exos in really weak for a lifeform that cost 50res. Which is not the case for a lifeform such as the gorge for exemple, his heal and his bilebomb makes him extremely good at supporting onos and at destroying exos, marines's armor and buildings
<!--quoteo(post=2011981:date=Nov 5 2012, 09:21 PM:name=Tharidor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tharidor @ Nov 5 2012, 09:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011981"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea of the fade is not to run in and "Swipe swipe swipe" untill a marine is dead. The idea is to blink in (prefered behind the marines) and hit once and then blink out<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What a highly intellectual comment you've made. Impressive to say the least! <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exr5Tt42EXo" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exr5Tt42EXo</a>
Now before you start "BS" about him not beeing any good or fighting people who are bad or that NS1 fades are stronger than NS2 fades. The concept stays the same.
<!--quoteo(post=2012648:date=Nov 6 2012, 08:57 AM:name=Tharidor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tharidor @ Nov 6 2012, 08:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What a highly intellectual comment you've made. Impressive to say the least! <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exr5Tt42EXo" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exr5Tt42EXo</a>
Now before you start "BS" about him not beeing any good or fighting people who are bad or that NS1 fades are stronger than NS2 fades. The concept stays the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
says the guy starting the bs in the first place. nice job completely ignoring my 2nd post , you know.. the one RIGHT BELOW that post. flame on
<!--quoteo(post=2012716:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:09 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Nov 6 2012, 04:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012716"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->says the guy starting the bs in the first place. nice job completely ignoring my 2nd post , you know.. the one RIGHT BELOW that post. flame on<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your point is that you dont like whiners and when people whine and changes are made based on whiners alone, the game suffers? I'm responding to your laughing post at ME.
I'd also like to know what part of my posts are "BS" on this thread related to the fade beeing useless. Or you know what..? Dont even bother. If you start laughing at people, except a response, in gesture to you starting this BS between the both of us.
Comments
Shotguns are 20 res. Fades are 50.
To kill a Marine with a shotgun, you must be in melee range.
It requires 4 attacks to kill a Marine.
Marines have a more damaging melee attack than melee only units. The melee only unit will never have a stronger attack, yet the ranged one will.
This isn't a battle of attrition anymore. There isn't any hit and run. Every marine base has an armory.
Make Fade a reasonable investment. They aren't currently. In any situation, I would take an Onos over a Fade.
I don't believe it should be like that. We should want a balanced composition, with clear roles. And they're effective at those roles.
But to me the problem is not the fade, its mostly the OP shotgun level 3, its ridiculous, i remember one time i was fade, i had 90hp remaining and got 1 shotted by a shotty from 100+feet or something, it has no spread or drop off damage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No... Because those OP shotguns still <i>balanced</i> at taking down onos.
Therefore you will find is the Fades that are broken.
Skulks should be killed in 1 hit late game. (not to GLs but thats a different story)
Stop trying to pretend the shotgun is OP so you can get away with using skulk late game, even if it is more viable than fade at the moment ... xD
Therefore you will find is the Fades that are broken.
Skulks should be killed in 1 hit late game. (not to GLs but thats a different story)
Stop trying to pretend the shotgun is OP so you can get away with using skulk late game, <b>even if it is more viable than fade at the moment ... xD</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Emphasis mine.
That's kinda the problem. 50res and you're marginally more effective than the base unit in a straight fight. And with barely any enhanced movement to get a better jump on the enemy (at least in NS1 the Blink was way fast and had glorious momentum). And a larger hitbox.
But to me the problem is not the fade, its mostly the OP shotgun level 3, its ridiculous, i remember one time i was fade, i had 90hp remaining and got 1 shotted by a shotty from 100+feet or something, it has no spread or drop off damage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think the shotty range does seem a tad high even with the spread. it is 30(m) now. there isnt that much LOS in the maps longer than 30. you can plink weakened critters Or structures from pretty far away.
I like how great care was taken to ensure the lmg was viable late game but skulks must not be allowed to have a chance late game.
And the problem there is that in order to PRESERVE the LMG they removed the HMG but by removing the HMG all they forced the shotgun into becoming an early game gun that was also the late game gun... thus making it broken.
<!--quoteo(post=2012254:date=Nov 6 2012, 05:50 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Nov 6 2012, 05:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Emphasis mine.
That's kinda the problem. 50res and you're marginally more effective than the base unit in a straight fight. And with barely any enhanced movement to get a better jump on the enemy (at least in NS1 the Blink was way fast and had glorious momentum). And a larger hitbox.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS1 fade had to counter HMG Jetpacks, they were equally as crazy at dealing death as the fade.
Due to no HMG Jetpacks I dont expect NS2 fade to be the same level as godlyness as it was.
However in NS1 we had: More hp, faster blink (jps are alot slower now as well), focus, no nano-armour, acid rocket, metabolism and no armour healing armouries.
NS2 needs SOME of these, not all of them... but SOME of them.
Well I agree that the HMG should be put back into the game and rebalance the shotgun and LMG but that is not going to happen because according to the devs all equipment and lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game.
Currently that is only being applied to marines and aliens are getting the short end of the stick.
>all equipment and lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game.
>all lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game.
>all lifeforms
>should be viable at all points in the game.
Ha ha ha...
>all equipment and lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game.
>all lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game.
>all lifeforms
>should be viable at all points in the game.
Ha ha ha...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro-->>according to the devs all equipment and lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game.
>all equipment and lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game.
>all lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game.
>all lifeforms
>should be viable at all points in the game.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
fix'd that for you Vlad.
Now let me explain to you why you're wrong.
Fade: health : 250
armor : 50 , with carapace : 100
shotguns deal normal damage; 2 points of normal damage is needed to get rid of 1 point of armor
effective health against shotguns : 350 , with carapace : 450
shotgun dmg at close range : 17 x 10 = 170
shotgun dmg at close range with weapon upgrade lvl 3 : 170+30% = 210
it takes only 2 shots of a lvl 1 shotgun and a sneeze to kill you without carapace and your model/hitbox is freaking huge so anyone who's not a complete noob will just hit you easly. If you take carapace on the other hand, you'll be able to blink in and out of fights vs average/good marines without instantly die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're getting hit with two perfect shotgun blasts then you're picking your fights poorly. The fade's mobility allows it to decide when and where a fight takes place.
It seems like people just want the fade to be easy mode. Blink in with zero stealth or surprise, soak up damage from 5 different marines while killing a target, and blink out with zero creativity or thought. If you want to play like that then get an Onos. The fade is a finesse class with the ability to severely punish any marine mistakes.
And the there is the thing about shotguns. People say "well just get good and attack when they are not looking". but any good marine with a higher than w1 shotgun will turn around and blast you in the face with all of his pellets most of the time, and then you will have half of that health he just dealt in damage to escape. All the risk for what, 2-3 swipes? Even if you are super pro and can not only do this in solo but actually distract for your team is this really worth a 50 res lifeform, when something like the lerk can support and deal damage to shotgunners because of how good spikes are now? Super-skulk,or super-res-sink?
Kind of see the same thing with exo. So much exo balance is dependant on visual obstruction. Its not just gorge bilebomb, its sound, gun smoke/muzzle flashes, great flashing bullet impact smoke effects that throw you off, landing smoke, jumpjet smoke, small vertical fov etc.
Duel Exo does fill a role, I do agree that single exo is pointless due to being 20-30 seconds earlier ... half the fire power, same slow speed and cant weld itself.
Duel Exo and Onos should be LATE GAME Tech as you have said...
In the gap before that I want my fade to not be a gimpy and useless.
For my 50 res I want 66% of an onos... I want to be able to e 66% as durable, be that by being twice harder to hit and half the hp or 4x harder to hit and 1/4 the hp. I want to have 66% the damage of an onos or I want 100% Of the damage but less health because I do the same dmg as a 75 res life form... I want balance.
I dont want a slight upgrade to the skulk passed off as a 50 res life form.
It is obveous that a shotgun is better than a LMG and it is obveous that a Jetpack Shotgun is better than a Shotgun.
It shouldnt be ###### impossible to work out why a fade is better than a skulk despite it costing 50 res.
The fade should be as strong as the 1 arm exo, but the fade doesn't even stand a chance against a couple of marines, forget trying to kill an exo.
Currently that is only being applied to marines and aliens are getting the short end of the stick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you tried to take down an Onos with an LMG?
Because that ###### ain't happenin'.
Most of the complaints I've heard from the Alien side is that 'Fade can't run into three Marines all armed with Shotguns and win' and 'One Onos can't run into a Marine base and solo the entire teched Marine team and smash everything by themselves.
I can't think of the last time I heard theorycrafting involving equal numbers of Marines and Aliens.
The fade is a finesse class with the ability to severely punish any marine mistakes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're implying 2 things:
1. Fades can't pick up a fight versus a shotgun marine or if they can, they shouldn't be hit by him twice.
2. Fades can severely punish marines
it takes like 4 hits to kill a marine mid/lategame (5 for a skulk ), now tell me, in what situation an average good marine would get hit 4 times at melee range and not possibly get 2 clear shots at a fade ? Preferably a situation where no other, cheaper, life form would perform just as well, if not better then a fade.
Because that ###### ain't happenin'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You shouldnt have to take down an Onos with an LMG unless you are really losing.
Onos is late game tech and should be only available late game.
<!--quoteo(post=2012326:date=Nov 6 2012, 06:45 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Nov 6 2012, 06:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012326"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most of the complaints I've heard from the Alien side is that 'Fade can't run into three Marines all armed with Shotguns and win' and 'One Onos can't run into a Marine base and solo the entire teched Marine team and smash everything by themselves.
I can't think of the last time I heard theorycrafting involving equal numbers of Marines and Aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The complaint is that a fade can be instantly killed by 2 shots from shotguns.
Two marines can one hit kill a fade.
I agree that Two marines should be able to Kill a fade.
But Two marines being able to One shot a fade whilst a fade would take 8 swipes to kill them both.
Its a little broken.
<u></u>
The fade should be as strong as the 1 arm exo, but the fade doesn't even stand a chance against a couple of marines, forget trying to kill an exo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
dont forget the time and res it requires to get the exo. research, second Comstation, adv armoury, proto.
[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ADHd - Although I don't have a strong viewpoint either way, just to play the devil's advocate, I'd point out that when I watch competitive casts, including yours, I certainly don't get the sense that fade is underpowered. I still see fades regularly on 10 or 20 kill streaks, and surviving most engagements with marines. If fades were so bad, clans wouldn't use them, but have you ever seen a match where aliens evolved no fades even when they had p-res for it? Even when aliens have choice b/w fade and onos late game, many times alien players will choose fade b/c onos have their own drawbacks.
Comparing ns2 fade to ns1, I'd point out one important difference: ns2 has a different res model, notably you no longer get res for kills. In ns1, the dominant skulk would get to go fade first and fade timing is staggered onto the battlefield. In contrast, in ns2, the entire alien team can go fade virtually at the same time, meaning that marines can suddenly be facing down 4 fades at the same time in a 6v6, which can often be overwhelming. I definitely feel that if aliens actually survive to evolve fades, they are statistically favoured to win the match, in large part because of how fade turns the tide of battle against marines.
It's also not fair to compare fade to early onos. I feel early onos is a bit overpowered and should probably be taken out of the game, and I think a lot of players agree. Fade can't compete with that because early onos is broken right now. On the other hand, early onos is often what's keeping aliens in the game, so if they take it out aliens might need a boost, perhaps for fade.
Certainly you feel fragile as fade when you can go down to 2 shottie hits, but is there actually hard evidence that fade is underpowered? Maybe this is what the game needs to be balanced.
B: Onos drop is over powered need to be removed
C: Why do competitive teams use fade if its so bad?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades don't seem weak? I see them get slaughtered in most matches I have seen.
Onos drop will be removed soon (hopefully!!!) and then the competitive teams will have to rely on their fades... only then will we see the true state of balance... I think it will be horrific...
They dont... Onos drop comes out at 5-6 mins, first fade probably 8-10 mins... I imagine the only reason people get fade anymore in competitive games is because they might as well spend their res... The comm will be able to drop them an onos egg MUCH earlier than they can save for one so there is no point saving for onos... they might as well use a fade even if it is sub par whilst they wait for their onos egg to be dropped. xD
Since the game was released i have constantly and only played the Aliens, the fade isn't even worth considering without carapace and depending on the commander that may be the very last thing he decides to research, so there is a long waiting game there as well.
I believe Marine commander and the normal marines have separate res to spend on whatever each unit wants, so if the exo becomes available he can spend the same amount of resources as it would take to buy a fade, on a exo, an exo that fades would die almost instantly against.
If you ask me that right there is a huge imbalance, do take this with a pinch of salt since i have never been on the marine side of things.
I can't think of the last time I heard theorycrafting involving equal numbers of Marines and Aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My complaint is that the entire marine team can get shotguns within the first few minutes of the game and rush the hive and destroy it because skulks, gorges, lerks and fades "...doesn't actually need to kill things..."
Every class aliens have other then Onos has been turned into a support class. If the point of the game is to drop a two minute onos egg and then have everyone else on the team support that Onos then you are talking about a very boring game.
the main point is they're fairly useless lategame, we're not saying that the fade is absolutly horrible and unplayable at every moment in the game, it's just that its impact on the game when marines have weap/armor lvl 3 and exos in really weak for a lifeform that cost 50res. Which is not the case for a lifeform such as the gorge for exemple, his heal and his bilebomb makes him extremely good at supporting onos and at destroying exos, marines's armor and buildings
bwahahahah!
balancing a game in alpha state around unfinished marine tech and extremely poor fps/hitreg was stupid and thoughtless.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9tH8xQHTV8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9tH8xQHTV8</a>
video i made in beta 178 (yes even then i was pointing out this exact problem)
What a highly intellectual comment you've made. Impressive to say the least!
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exr5Tt42EXo" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exr5Tt42EXo</a>
Now before you start "BS" about him not beeing any good or fighting people who are bad or that NS1 fades are stronger than NS2 fades. The concept stays the same.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exr5Tt42EXo" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exr5Tt42EXo</a>
Now before you start "BS" about him not beeing any good or fighting people who are bad or that NS1 fades are stronger than NS2 fades. The concept stays the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
says the guy starting the bs in the first place. nice job completely ignoring my 2nd post , you know.. the one RIGHT BELOW that post. flame on
Your point is that you dont like whiners and when people whine and changes are made based on whiners alone, the game suffers?
I'm responding to your laughing post at ME.
I'd also like to know what part of my posts are "BS" on this thread related to the fade beeing useless. Or you know what..? Dont even bother.
If you start laughing at people, except a response, in gesture to you starting this BS between the both of us.
Lets stay on topic instead.