Fade is pretty balanced. If anything I'd ad a bit more armor to at least survive a full 2nd shotty blast. As far as taking on 3-4 rines with shottys, you'd be a fool to stick around in that solo. Bring franzzz!
+ Slightly more base armor which means less dependence on carapace opening back up regen viability for the lifeform + Removal of armor healing on armories. Without this the hit+run tactics just will not work
I know they have been said but it needed to be said again for reinforcement.
The fade definitely is too soft and the onos is out too early. I haven't been afraid of a fade since 219 when they were too strong and fps was lower. Now I chase down fades with my wep 2 lmg.
<!--quoteo(post=2012336:date=Nov 6 2012, 01:52 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 6 2012, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->dont forget the time and res it requires to get the exo. research, second Comstation, adv armoury, proto.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Assuming he means cara+celer fade with blink, and armour 3 exos.
The problem with hit-and-run Fade tactics is that the marine you swiped will probably be close to full health before you get another chance (aka before you've healed up enough yourself to go in again). Once enough marines have shotguns, you have to be very very careful not to lose that 50 res lifeform.
<!--quoteo(post=2012284:date=Nov 6 2012, 01:07 AM:name=Sops)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sops @ Nov 6 2012, 01:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well I agree that the HMG should be put back into the game and rebalance the shotgun and LMG but that is not going to happen because according to the devs all equipment and lifeforms should be viable at all points in the game.
Currently that is only being applied to marines and aliens are getting the short end of the stick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, but rebalance the LMG and Shotgun? They do the exact same damage that they did in NS1. Fade just needs to be back back at 300/150 or 300/250 with Carapace. The GL needs to be rebalanced though, it's way too powerful.
It's hard enough to be Skulk, Lerk, and Fade as it is right now so I don't really understand people's obsession with bringing back the most powerful Marine weapon.
<!--quoteo(post=2012933:date=Nov 6 2012, 12:53 PM:name=arealous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (arealous @ Nov 6 2012, 12:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is the focus attack in NS2? I've only played 6-10 games so far, but that was one of the biggest hit and run weapons for fades in the first game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nope.
Focus would be great for fades, but it would unbalance the strategy of what hive to choose as everybody will go shift hive first if focus was placed in the shift tree. I think it should be placed on shade, because shade first is used more than shade second, and shade third is the most common. Focus on shade hive will make it more common on second, and slightly more on first.
<!--quoteo(post=2012943:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:02 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 6 2012, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Focus would be great for fades, but it would unbalance the strategy of what hive to choose as everybody will go shift hive first if focus was placed in the shift tree. I think it should be placed on shade, because shade first is used more than shade second, and shade third is the most common. Focus on shade hive will make it more common on second, and slightly more on first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or they can just make it a fade only upgrade rather than lifeform wide. Focus was OP on skulks.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2012946:date=Nov 6 2012, 01:03 PM:name=arealous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (arealous @ Nov 6 2012, 01:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or they can just make it a fade only upgrade rather than lifeform wide. Focus was OP on skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, because nothing says game balance like biting marines 5+ times to a shotgun wielding armor 3 marine that can kill you in one shot.
I'm one to rarely comment on balance, but the fades atm seem very useless. They are so weak, I often find myself surprised at how quickly I go down. You can literally get maybe 2-3 swipes in before you have to retreat because you've taken so much damage... And getting 2-shot from sgs is quite frankly retarded for a 50 res lifeform.
Technically it should be an even match between a one armed exo and fade... obviously it is not.
<!--quoteo(post=2012952:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:09 PM:name=glimmerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (glimmerman @ Nov 6 2012, 02:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012952"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm one to rarely comment on balance, but the fades atm seem very useless. They are so weak, I often find myself surprised at how quickly I go down. You can literally get maybe 2-3 swipes in before you have to retreat because you've taken so much damage... And getting 2-shot from sgs is quite frankly retarded for a 50 res lifeform.
Technically it should be an even match between a one armed exo and fade... obviously it is not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's plenty of tweaks they can make without completely destroying the balance. Implementing the old fade heal ability would help them outlast marines as well. As far as getting taken down quickly, I'm not finding it to be that bad.
<!--quoteo(post=2011981:date=Nov 5 2012, 10:21 PM:name=Tharidor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tharidor @ Nov 5 2012, 10:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011981"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea of the fade is not to run in and "Swipe swipe swipe" untill a marine is dead. The idea is to blink in (prefered behind the marines) and hit once and then blink out and if repeated in a scenario with three marines in a open room, he can easly kill off one marine at the time. The idea of the fade has never in my opinion to be a mid-range tanker with the ability to move around super effective. Having it be squishy forces people to adept to the "hit and run" idea.
But here is the most important part. If you blink in against three marines and they're all holding a shotgun each and you expect to be able to tank them and take them all out? Then you're failing to see the team-play aspect of the game. Lets even the plain field in the scenario you described.
(3 marines in a team, against a fade, but now lets add two skulks that jump in and ambushes the marines) - The outcome wont be "marines win 100% of the time" Which is what its suppose to be if un' alone fade tries to kill a group of marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did you seriously have to quote that huge post? So unnecessary.
<!--quoteo(post=2012910:date=Nov 6 2012, 06:32 PM:name=Jiggles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiggles @ Nov 6 2012, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012910"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with hit-and-run Fade tactics is that the marine you swiped will probably be close to full health before you get another chance (aka before you've healed up enough yourself to go in again). Once enough marines have shotguns, you have to be very very careful not to lose that 50 res lifeform.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although I can share alot of the anxiety people get from beeing killed as a fade from a shotgun blast, its not thought through well as a whole. Most people are stuck in the whole "1v1 perspective" (I as a fade vs one marine with a shotgun on the whole map)
Its a RTS game mixed with FPS and alot of people over-see the RTS side of the game. Lets imagine ourselves a person going fade and by the time he has gone fade, the marines have shotguns as a counter.
First of all, not all marines will have a shotgun in their hands to counter the fade by the time the fade reaches the field. Now lets picture ourselves the scenario of the shotgun marines dying and not able to retreive their lost shotguns from skulks and even lerks at long range.
If the marines are stubborn and gets another shotgun they're down 40 resources and will not be able to go exo once they're out of the field (Unelss they control 90% of the map and the resoruces are flowing in, at which point its a GG either way)
Now lets say some of these marines are killed again with the shotgun and unable to retrieve it. All the sudden he is stuck with the normal rifle and thats a whole different story.
Also the hit and run tactic does work, aslong as the marines are moving out of their bases. (Sure the commander can build a armory every 20 feet in order for them to advance on the map against the hit and run tactic) (but its a complete waste of resoruces for the commander)
There are alot of things that people "look past" and that is the team play aspect of the game, combined with the RTS aspect. Just because somone becomes a fade, it doesn't mean he should have the ability to take on multiple marines JUST because he is a FADE.
There might be someone else thinking "well how about when mariens get a armory up just outside the alien hive" "Then it isn't possible for me to run in and out of the hive with using the hit and run tactic" but that falls under the line that you're alone and you're not getting any support. Throw in a lerk and prehaps a couple of dedicated skulks in on the attack against the few marines outside the hive and they will go down eventually.
If the scenario is different and the whole marine team is outside the hive knocking on the door, and aliens are failing to push them back because of several mines, a phasegate and all other sorts of stuff that makes it harder for aliens, then the counter to it has already failed. The counter was to prevent the marines from setting up a forward base outside the hive in the first place and we all know how WELL the marines can turtle and hold on to a fortified position. (Although not impossible)
I get the feeling that alot of the frustration is born from the public games where most of the time people wont team up and work together. In that case its not a question of lifeform balance, but rather the player balance.
For example: I've had alot of games where I've seen people go afk for several minutes, I've seen gorges build hydras behind the hive so they cant shot at anything and then they sit there looking at thier own buildings for 15minutes before eventually beeing killed. I've also seen skulks run around do jack###### for 10minutes and constantly dying without putting any effort in to the game, and ONTOP of that I see a few aliens actually try very hard to defend and push the marines back, but since they're outnumbered they stand no chance and it usually forces the fades and whatnot to overextend and die.
The huge factor is where and how the balance should be made on the 6v6 competitive level servers and the 12v12 public servers. Because the people on the 6v6 server might come up with a solution to balance fades perfectly on 6v6 servers, but then the people on the 12v12 servers will scream that it just isn't enough and it needs more buffs or the other way around.
<!--quoteo(post=2012963:date=Nov 6 2012, 06:25 PM:name=Tharidor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tharidor @ Nov 6 2012, 06:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012963"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the marines are stubborn and gets another shotgun they're down 40 resources and will not be able to go exo once they're out of the field (Unelss they control 90% of the map and the resoruces are flowing in, at which point its a GG either way)
Now lets say some of these marines are killed again with the shotgun and unable to retrieve it. All the sudden he is stuck with the normal rifle and thats a whole different story.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what your saying is that the fade life form shouldn't be able to beat people with shotguns, but if all those shotguns are killed... then it should be able to kill people...
Ok... well I don't want ANY marine tech to be able to kill Onos then... if all the onos magically disappear marines will be fine... but up until then I want onos to be unkillable by marines... seems fair! :)
<!--quoteo(post=2012964:date=Nov 6 2012, 07:37 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 6 2012, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what your saying is that the fade life form shouldn't be able to beat people with shotguns, but if all those shotguns are killed... then it should be able to kill people...
Ok... well I don't want ANY marine tech to be able to kill Onos then... if all the onos magically disappear marines will be fine... but up until then I want onos to be unkillable by marines... seems fair! :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That wasn't what I meant. The idea is that shotguns counter the fade, its the nature of the game. Its like the jetpack counters the onos or the dual exo vs the onos, which makes the battlefield alot more even.
It comes down to picking your fights and having your team mates take out what is the most threat to you and the team. Without team work this game fails on all levels and people who refuses to team-play can stick to the combat mode.
<!--quoteo(post=2012968:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:49 PM:name=Tharidor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tharidor @ Nov 6 2012, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That wasn't what I meant. The idea is that shotguns counter the fade, its the nature of the game. Its like the jetpack counters the onos or the dual exo vs the onos, which makes the battlefield alot more even.
It comes down to picking your fights and having your team mates take out what is the most threat to you and the team. Without team work this game fails on all levels and people who refuses to team-play can stick to the combat mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except the devs "dont like" hard counters, which in my opinion is the worst aspect of their design of this game, and to that point they haven't been able to follow that philosophy (look at flamethrowers and spores).
Counters are what give a strategy game strategy. If this game were strategy first, skill second it would be so much more of an interesting game. As in if you scout a certain tech path and tech to counter it, it would take a lot of skill from the other team to continue with their strategy or they would need to do a surprise tech switch. These things are the basis of just about every competitive strategy game. Right now the tech paths are completely linear.
If lots of shotguns are the counter to fades maybe lerks could be made more viable against shotties but less against other weapons. Onos beat exos, JPs beat onos, fade beat JPs.
I swear it's like I'm playing a totally different game from you guys. If it wasn't for the forums I would assume the fade is overpowered.
If you are getting shot by shotguns you are playing fade incorrectly. The fade is a ninja. If you are hitting a shotgunner while he is looking at you then you screwed up. If you require carapace to play fade you are not doing it right. Get regen. Attack people in the back. When they look at you, move. If a shotgun looks at you, leave and regen. Do that and you now have 30 kills in one life.
Blink lets you fly and even move through groups of enemies. If you have 3 aliens vs 3 marines in a hallway meeting, you can blink behind them while the other two attack from the front, fully surrounding them.
The fade chooses when to attack 100% of the time. There is no situation where a marine decides when and where to fight a fade. If your fade dies it is because YOU made a mistake. Not because the class doesn't have enough hitpoints. A class as evasive and mobile as the fade doesn't need a million hitpoints. It's no exaggeration to say that I almost never die as a fade, so giving me extra health AND allowing me to pick regen would be absurdly easy.
If you want to buff the fade, I made a suggestion thread saying that vortex should be able to turn out the lights in a room. THAT is a cool ability that goes well with the fade's whole concept. Lumping more hitpoints onto the fade is just lazy and potentially gamebreaking.
<!--quoteo(post=2012968:date=Nov 6 2012, 07:49 PM:name=Tharidor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tharidor @ Nov 6 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That wasn't what I meant. The idea is that shotguns counter the fade, its the nature of the game. Its like the jetpack counters the onos or the dual exo vs the onos, which makes the battlefield alot more even.
It comes down to picking your fights and having your team mates take out what is the most threat to you and the team. Without team work this game fails on all levels and people who refuses to team-play can stick to the combat mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So 20 res countering 50 is considered fair? Makes no sense to me...
<!--quoteo(post=2012983:date=Nov 6 2012, 03:02 PM:name=Plunkies)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Plunkies @ Nov 6 2012, 03:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I swear it's like I'm playing a totally different game from you guys. If it wasn't for the forums I would assume the fade is overpowered.
If you are getting shot by shotguns you are playing fade incorrectly. The fade is a ninja. If you are hitting a shotgunner while he is looking at you then you screwed up. If you require carapace to play fade you are not doing it right. Get regen. Attack people in the back. When they look at you, move. If a shotgun looks at you, leave and regen. Do that and you now have 30 kills in one life.
Blink lets you fly and even move through groups of enemies. If you have 3 aliens vs 3 marines in a hallway meeting, you can blink behind them while the other two attack from the front, fully surrounding them.
The fade chooses when to attack 100% of the time. There is no situation where a marine decides when and where to fight a fade. If your fade dies it is because YOU made a mistake. Not because the class doesn't have enough hitpoints. A class as evasive and mobile as the fade doesn't need a million hitpoints. It's no exaggeration to say that I almost never die as a fade, so giving me extra health AND allowing me to pick regen would be absurdly easy.
If you want to buff the fade, I made a suggestion thread saying that vortex should be able to turn out the lights in a room. THAT is a cool ability that goes well with the fade's whole concept. Lumping more hitpoints onto the fade is just lazy and potentially gamebreaking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines can look wherever they want at any time, if they have their back to you then they're not any good. And you take full damage while blinking, so if you blink through a good shotty marine you'll get blasted in the face. If you have a flawless method for making marines look elsewhere and not shoot at you, you can do just as well with a Skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=2012983:date=Nov 6 2012, 07:02 PM:name=Plunkies)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Plunkies @ Nov 6 2012, 07:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I swear it's like I'm playing a totally different game from you guys. If it wasn't for the forums I would assume the fade is overpowered.
If you are getting shot by shotguns you are playing fade incorrectly. The fade is a ninja. If you are hitting a shotgunner while he is looking at you then you screwed up. If you require carapace to play fade you are not doing it right. Get regen. Attack people in the back. When they look at you, move. If a shotgun looks at you, leave and regen. Do that and you now have 30 kills in one life.
Blink lets you fly and even move through groups of enemies. If you have 3 aliens vs 3 marines in a hallway meeting, you can blink behind them while the other two attack from the front, fully surrounding them.
The fade chooses when to attack 100% of the time. There is no situation where a marine decides when and where to fight a fade. If your fade dies it is because YOU made a mistake. Not because the class doesn't have enough hitpoints. A class as evasive and mobile as the fade doesn't need a million hitpoints. It's no exaggeration to say that I almost never die as a fade, so giving me extra health AND allowing me to pick regen would be absurdly easy.
If you want to buff the fade, I made a suggestion thread saying that vortex should be able to turn out the lights in a room. THAT is a cool ability that goes well with the fade's whole concept. Lumping more hitpoints onto the fade is just lazy and potentially gamebreaking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In games of 12 - 16 players, you will generally be obliged at some point -- as a fade -- to defend a hive location, or else attack a group of marines, in order to not lose. You'll do it in a group but in these situations, you are going to be looked at. A 50 res life form should have some viability when it comes to pushing back marine attacks.
If 2 shotgun marines are properly spaced, you have one chance to get a swipe or two in on one, after that the second marine is going to be staring at his buddy and the next time you close distance you will often take 150+ damage. This sounds fine except a swipe or two is basically useless when you have to spend at least 30 seconds going to a hive and healing, or else taking regen and becoming practically useless vs LMG marines as well.
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to even consider spending 50 whole res on a fade, the fade needs some serious HP buffs to even be considered a viable choice over an Onos.
for 50 res, it needs an attack buff as well, the fade costs as much as an 1 gun exo, so it should at least be as powerful as one.
<!--quoteo(post=2012983:date=Nov 6 2012, 11:02 AM:name=Plunkies)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Plunkies @ Nov 6 2012, 11:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fade chooses when to attack 100% of the time. There is no situation where a marine decides when and where to fight a fade. If your fade dies it is because YOU made a mistake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 shotgun marines are pushing an rt. The fade is the only lifeforms close / fast enough to respond. This forces the fade to attack.
Fade blinks in, lands 3 swipes, gets hit with 3 shotgun blasts. Dies.
is this the fades mistake? Should she just let the RT die?
You can change the word fade, to any lifeform except onos and the story is the same.
<!--quoteo(post=2012963:date=Nov 6 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Tharidor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tharidor @ Nov 6 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012963"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now lets picture ourselves the scenario of the shotgun marines dying and not able to retreive their lost shotguns from skulks and even lerks at long range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Since you are magically assuming the marine dies, I can also assume that the Fade dies. Who is out more resources?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now lets say some of these marines are killed again with the shotgun and unable to retrieve it. All the sudden he is stuck with the normal rifle and thats a whole different story.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Ok, then I get to assume the Fade died again. Err, actually, its not that likely he'd be able to afford another Fade for a long time, so nevermind...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also the hit and run tactic does work, aslong as the marines are moving out of their bases. (Sure the commander can build a armory every 20 feet in order for them to advance on the map against the hit and run tactic) (but its a complete waste of resoruces for the commander)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Because armories are the only way for marines to regain health? Actually, that's a fair assumption, since it's so common to drop one at virtually any rally point. Throw in a welder or two and no amount of "wearing down" is practical. You either rush the marine position with enough force, or they're not budging.
Lerk spikes are a joke, damage wise, and spores aren't range anymore...yeah...
<!--quoteo(post=2013017:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:45 PM:name=DanielD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Nov 6 2012, 02:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013017"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In games of 12 - 16 players, you will generally be obliged at some point -- as a fade -- to defend a hive location, or else attack a group of marines, in order to not lose. You'll do it in a group but in these situations, you are going to be looked at. A 50 res life form should have some viability when it comes to pushing back marine attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't shoot a hive and shoot a fade at the same time. They shoot something that's not you, you hit them. They look at you, you move. It's not complicated.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If 2 shotgun marines are properly spaced, you have one chance to get a swipe or two in on one, after that the second marine is going to be staring at his buddy and the next time you close distance you will often take 150+ damage. This sounds fine except a swipe or two is basically useless when you have to spend at least 30 seconds going to a hive and healing, or else taking regen and becoming practically useless vs LMG marines as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Carapace sucks on fade. Stop using it. Get regen. Leave when you've taken damage. If you get soloed by an LMG marine as a fade without carapace, you are bad. Period. There is no excuse for that. If you are attacking 2 shotgun marines by yourself, who are prepared for you, you are bad. Stop it. Every example is some ridiculous situation where the fade SHOULD lose if they're making the stupidest possible engagement that they can. No wonder people think the fade is weak if they're expecting to solo an entire group of marines in the most predictable and slow way possible. Stop playing the fade like it's an onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2013064:date=Nov 6 2012, 03:14 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Nov 6 2012, 03:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013064"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2 shotgun marines are pushing an rt. The fade is the only lifeforms close / fast enough to respond. This forces the fade to attack.
Fade blinks in, lands 3 swipes, gets hit with 3 shotgun blasts. Dies.
is this the fades mistake? Should she just let the RT die?
You can change the word fade, to any lifeform except onos and the story is the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, they can't shoot the RT and shoot you at the same time. If one is shooting the RT then damage the other shotgun marine, when he looks at you leave and regen. Come back and finish him in 10 seconds. Then solo the other one. You'll slow them down enough to get backup or they'll both be dead by the time the RT is dead. If they want to sacrifice 2 shotguns for a RT that's going to be immediately rebuilt for 10 res, then I say go for it.
If a Fade can beat two shotguns without needing any skill or thought, then the fade is overpowered. What should the marines have to field to kill ONE fade? Three shotguns? Four shotguns? A few exos? How powerful is the Fade supposed to be?
FYI, fades take more than 4 swipes to kill a marine with shotgun and it costs 50 res, w1 shotgun marine can kill a fade in 2 well placed shots and he costs 20 res plus can recycle the weapon. So a fade is not equal to a shotgun marine, he is more equal to a jetpack shotgun marine in cost but still not quite there.
<!--quoteo(post=2013098:date=Nov 6 2012, 09:33 PM:name=Jiggles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiggles @ Nov 6 2012, 09:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since you are magically assuming the marine dies, I can also assume that the Fade dies. Who is out more resources?
Ok, then I get to assume the Fade died again. Err, actually, its not that likely he'd be able to afford another Fade for a long time, so nevermind...
Because armories are the only way for marines to regain health? Actually, that's a fair assumption, since it's so common to drop one at virtually any rally point. Throw in a welder or two and no amount of "wearing down" is practical. You either rush the marine position with enough force, or they're not budging.
Lerk spikes are a joke, damage wise, and spores aren't range anymore...yeah...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A none upgraded marine dies in less than 5seconds to direct hits from the spikes, they aren't useless. My assumptions are made towards the people who constantly say "I as a FADE die" but its never the other way around and people dont consider the other way around. Ofcourse the fade can die and damn it happens because its the nature of the game, you dont want a unstoppable fade or any other life form.
Everyone is making marines sound like gods.
I'm also not "magically" assuming things because marines do tend to die and you can make them die if you attack them. If you're the fade and you quickly realize that there are shotgun marines, ask your other buddies to take em out "prefered skulls" - Do you even try to think of team-play?
Also, Plunkies seems to know the truth about all of this, prepps to you buddy :)
<!--quoteo(post=2013107:date=Nov 6 2012, 03:41 PM:name=Plunkies)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Plunkies @ Nov 6 2012, 03:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a Fade can beat two shotguns without needing any skill or thought, then the fade is overpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No one is seriously saying a Fade should be an Onos. However, if 2 marines with shotguns can't kill a Fade, that Fade is either way way better than they are, or one of the marines is on a smoke break.
<!--quoteo(post=2013118:date=Nov 6 2012, 08:50 PM:name=Tharidor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tharidor @ Nov 6 2012, 08:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A none upgraded marine dies in less than 5seconds to direct hits from the spikes, they aren't useless. My assumptions are made towards the people who constantly say "I as a FADE die" but its never the other way around and people dont consider the other way around. Ofcourse the fade can die and damn it happens because its the nature of the game, you dont want a unstoppable fade or any other life form.
Everyone is making marines sound like gods.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a marine? Lol as a marine you grab a Jetpack and a Shotgun and go out fade hunting... Its a hard sport these days fade hunting, do you know why? Cos fades are really hard to kill because they are badass... no... Because no one fades anymore, when they do they are dead before you even get the chance to go hunt them. "They have a fade, oh... never mind... dead fade." and due to them costing so much res people who die as them generally don't get enough res to re-fade the same game.
(unless aliens are winning and spending 1000 years trying to break a marine turtle)
Comments
+ Slightly more base armor which means less dependence on carapace opening back up regen viability for the lifeform
+ Removal of armor healing on armories. Without this the hit+run tactics just will not work
I know they have been said but it needed to be said again for reinforcement.
Assuming he means cara+celer fade with blink, and armour 3 exos.
Marines: 10 (armory) + 20 (arms lab) + 15 + 25 + 35 (armour upgrades) + 15 (command station) + 40 (prototype lab) + 30 (exo research) = 190 tres
Aliens: 15 (shift hive) + 10 (spur) + 15 (celerity) + 40 (hive) + 15 (crag hive) + 15 (shell) + 15 (carapace) + 30 (blink) = 155 tres
The tres investment is pretty similar. And the difference is probably negligable given aliens have a harder time holding res nodes.
Currently that is only being applied to marines and aliens are getting the short end of the stick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, but rebalance the LMG and Shotgun? They do the exact same damage that they did in NS1. Fade just needs to be back back at 300/150 or 300/250 with Carapace. The GL needs to be rebalanced though, it's way too powerful.
It's hard enough to be Skulk, Lerk, and Fade as it is right now so I don't really understand people's obsession with bringing back the most powerful Marine weapon.
Nope.
Or they can just make it a fade only upgrade rather than lifeform wide. Focus was OP on skulks.
Yes, because nothing says game balance like biting marines 5+ times to a shotgun wielding armor 3 marine that can kill you in one shot.
Technically it should be an even match between a one armed exo and fade... obviously it is not.
Technically it should be an even match between a one armed exo and fade... obviously it is not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's plenty of tweaks they can make without completely destroying the balance. Implementing the old fade heal ability would help them outlast marines as well. As far as getting taken down quickly, I'm not finding it to be that bad.
But here is the most important part. If you blink in against three marines and they're all holding a shotgun each and you expect to be able to tank them and take them all out?
Then you're failing to see the team-play aspect of the game. Lets even the plain field in the scenario you described.
(3 marines in a team, against a fade, but now lets add two skulks that jump in and ambushes the marines) - The outcome wont be "marines win 100% of the time" Which is what its suppose to be if un' alone fade tries to kill a group of marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you seriously have to quote that huge post? So unnecessary.
Although I can share alot of the anxiety people get from beeing killed as a fade from a shotgun blast, its not thought through well as a whole.
Most people are stuck in the whole "1v1 perspective" (I as a fade vs one marine with a shotgun on the whole map)
Its a RTS game mixed with FPS and alot of people over-see the RTS side of the game.
Lets imagine ourselves a person going fade and by the time he has gone fade, the marines have shotguns as a counter.
First of all, not all marines will have a shotgun in their hands to counter the fade by the time the fade reaches the field.
Now lets picture ourselves the scenario of the shotgun marines dying and not able to retreive their lost shotguns from skulks and even lerks at long range.
If the marines are stubborn and gets another shotgun they're down 40 resources and will not be able to go exo once they're out of the field (Unelss they control 90% of the map and the resoruces are flowing in, at which point its a GG either way)
Now lets say some of these marines are killed again with the shotgun and unable to retrieve it. All the sudden he is stuck with the normal rifle and thats a whole different story.
Also the hit and run tactic does work, aslong as the marines are moving out of their bases. (Sure the commander can build a armory every 20 feet in order for them to advance on the map against the hit and run tactic) (but its a complete waste of resoruces for the commander)
There are alot of things that people "look past" and that is the team play aspect of the game, combined with the RTS aspect. Just because somone becomes a fade, it doesn't mean he should have the ability to take on multiple marines JUST because he is a FADE.
There might be someone else thinking "well how about when mariens get a armory up just outside the alien hive" "Then it isn't possible for me to run in and out of the hive with using the hit and run tactic" but that falls under the line that you're alone and you're not getting any support. Throw in a lerk and prehaps a couple of dedicated skulks in on the attack against the few marines outside the hive and they will go down eventually.
If the scenario is different and the whole marine team is outside the hive knocking on the door, and aliens are failing to push them back because of several mines, a phasegate and all other sorts of stuff that makes it harder for aliens, then the counter to it has already failed. The counter was to prevent the marines from setting up a forward base outside the hive in the first place and we all know how WELL the marines can turtle and hold on to a fortified position. (Although not impossible)
I get the feeling that alot of the frustration is born from the public games where most of the time people wont team up and work together.
In that case its not a question of lifeform balance, but rather the player balance.
For example: I've had alot of games where I've seen people go afk for several minutes, I've seen gorges build hydras behind the hive so they cant shot at anything and then they sit there looking at thier own buildings for 15minutes before eventually beeing killed. I've also seen skulks run around do jack###### for 10minutes and constantly dying without putting any effort in to the game, and ONTOP of that I see a few aliens actually try very hard to defend and push the marines back, but since they're outnumbered they stand no chance and it usually forces the fades and whatnot to overextend and die.
The huge factor is where and how the balance should be made on the 6v6 competitive level servers and the 12v12 public servers.
Because the people on the 6v6 server might come up with a solution to balance fades perfectly on 6v6 servers, but then the people on the 12v12 servers will scream that it just isn't enough and it needs more buffs or the other way around.
Now lets say some of these marines are killed again with the shotgun and unable to retrieve it. All the sudden he is stuck with the normal rifle and thats a whole different story.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what your saying is that the fade life form shouldn't be able to beat people with shotguns, but if all those shotguns are killed... then it should be able to kill people...
Ok... well I don't want ANY marine tech to be able to kill Onos then... if all the onos magically disappear marines will be fine... but up until then I want onos to be unkillable by marines... seems fair! :)
Ok... well I don't want ANY marine tech to be able to kill Onos then... if all the onos magically disappear marines will be fine... but up until then I want onos to be unkillable by marines... seems fair! :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That wasn't what I meant. The idea is that shotguns counter the fade, its the nature of the game.
Its like the jetpack counters the onos or the dual exo vs the onos, which makes the battlefield alot more even.
It comes down to picking your fights and having your team mates take out what is the most threat to you and the team. Without team work this game fails on all levels and people who refuses to team-play can stick to the combat mode.
Its like the jetpack counters the onos or the dual exo vs the onos, which makes the battlefield alot more even.
It comes down to picking your fights and having your team mates take out what is the most threat to you and the team. Without team work this game fails on all levels and people who refuses to team-play can stick to the combat mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except the devs "dont like" hard counters, which in my opinion is the worst aspect of their design of this game, and to that point they haven't been able to follow that philosophy (look at flamethrowers and spores).
Counters are what give a strategy game strategy. If this game were strategy first, skill second it would be so much more of an interesting game. As in if you scout a certain tech path and tech to counter it, it would take a lot of skill from the other team to continue with their strategy or they would need to do a surprise tech switch. These things are the basis of just about every competitive strategy game. Right now the tech paths are completely linear.
If lots of shotguns are the counter to fades maybe lerks could be made more viable against shotties but less against other weapons. Onos beat exos, JPs beat onos, fade beat JPs.
If you are getting shot by shotguns you are playing fade incorrectly. The fade is a ninja. If you are hitting a shotgunner while he is looking at you then you screwed up. If you require carapace to play fade you are not doing it right. Get regen. Attack people in the back. When they look at you, move. If a shotgun looks at you, leave and regen. Do that and you now have 30 kills in one life.
Blink lets you fly and even move through groups of enemies. If you have 3 aliens vs 3 marines in a hallway meeting, you can blink behind them while the other two attack from the front, fully surrounding them.
The fade chooses when to attack 100% of the time. There is no situation where a marine decides when and where to fight a fade. If your fade dies it is because YOU made a mistake. Not because the class doesn't have enough hitpoints. A class as evasive and mobile as the fade doesn't need a million hitpoints. It's no exaggeration to say that I almost never die as a fade, so giving me extra health AND allowing me to pick regen would be absurdly easy.
If you want to buff the fade, I made a suggestion thread saying that vortex should be able to turn out the lights in a room. THAT is a cool ability that goes well with the fade's whole concept. Lumping more hitpoints onto the fade is just lazy and potentially gamebreaking.
Its like the jetpack counters the onos or the dual exo vs the onos, which makes the battlefield alot more even.
It comes down to picking your fights and having your team mates take out what is the most threat to you and the team. Without team work this game fails on all levels and people who refuses to team-play can stick to the combat mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So 20 res countering 50 is considered fair? Makes no sense to me...
If you are getting shot by shotguns you are playing fade incorrectly. The fade is a ninja. If you are hitting a shotgunner while he is looking at you then you screwed up. If you require carapace to play fade you are not doing it right. Get regen. Attack people in the back. When they look at you, move. If a shotgun looks at you, leave and regen. Do that and you now have 30 kills in one life.
Blink lets you fly and even move through groups of enemies. If you have 3 aliens vs 3 marines in a hallway meeting, you can blink behind them while the other two attack from the front, fully surrounding them.
The fade chooses when to attack 100% of the time. There is no situation where a marine decides when and where to fight a fade. If your fade dies it is because YOU made a mistake. Not because the class doesn't have enough hitpoints. A class as evasive and mobile as the fade doesn't need a million hitpoints. It's no exaggeration to say that I almost never die as a fade, so giving me extra health AND allowing me to pick regen would be absurdly easy.
If you want to buff the fade, I made a suggestion thread saying that vortex should be able to turn out the lights in a room. THAT is a cool ability that goes well with the fade's whole concept. Lumping more hitpoints onto the fade is just lazy and potentially gamebreaking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines can look wherever they want at any time, if they have their back to you then they're not any good. And you take full damage while blinking, so if you blink through a good shotty marine you'll get blasted in the face. If you have a flawless method for making marines look elsewhere and not shoot at you, you can do just as well with a Skulk.
If you are getting shot by shotguns you are playing fade incorrectly. The fade is a ninja. If you are hitting a shotgunner while he is looking at you then you screwed up. If you require carapace to play fade you are not doing it right. Get regen. Attack people in the back. When they look at you, move. If a shotgun looks at you, leave and regen. Do that and you now have 30 kills in one life.
Blink lets you fly and even move through groups of enemies. If you have 3 aliens vs 3 marines in a hallway meeting, you can blink behind them while the other two attack from the front, fully surrounding them.
The fade chooses when to attack 100% of the time. There is no situation where a marine decides when and where to fight a fade. If your fade dies it is because YOU made a mistake. Not because the class doesn't have enough hitpoints. A class as evasive and mobile as the fade doesn't need a million hitpoints. It's no exaggeration to say that I almost never die as a fade, so giving me extra health AND allowing me to pick regen would be absurdly easy.
If you want to buff the fade, I made a suggestion thread saying that vortex should be able to turn out the lights in a room. THAT is a cool ability that goes well with the fade's whole concept. Lumping more hitpoints onto the fade is just lazy and potentially gamebreaking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In games of 12 - 16 players, you will generally be obliged at some point -- as a fade -- to defend a hive location, or else attack a group of marines, in order to not lose. You'll do it in a group but in these situations, you are going to be looked at. A 50 res life form should have some viability when it comes to pushing back marine attacks.
If 2 shotgun marines are properly spaced, you have one chance to get a swipe or two in on one, after that the second marine is going to be staring at his buddy and the next time you close distance you will often take 150+ damage. This sounds fine except a swipe or two is basically useless when you have to spend at least 30 seconds going to a hive and healing, or else taking regen and becoming practically useless vs LMG marines as well.
for 50 res, it needs an attack buff as well, the fade costs as much as an 1 gun exo, so it should at least be as powerful as one.
2 shotgun marines are pushing an rt. The fade is the only lifeforms close / fast enough to respond. This forces the fade to attack.
Fade blinks in, lands 3 swipes, gets hit with 3 shotgun blasts. Dies.
is this the fades mistake? Should she just let the RT die?
You can change the word fade, to any lifeform except onos and the story is the same.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now lets say some of these marines are killed again with the shotgun and unable to retrieve it. All the sudden he is stuck with the normal rifle and thats a whole different story.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Ok, then I get to assume the Fade died again. Err, actually, its not that likely he'd be able to afford another Fade for a long time, so nevermind...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also the hit and run tactic does work, aslong as the marines are moving out of their bases. (Sure the commander can build a armory every 20 feet in order for them to advance on the map against the hit and run tactic) (but its a complete waste of resoruces for the commander)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Because armories are the only way for marines to regain health? Actually, that's a fair assumption, since it's so common to drop one at virtually any rally point. Throw in a welder or two and no amount of "wearing down" is practical. You either rush the marine position with enough force, or they're not budging.
Lerk spikes are a joke, damage wise, and spores aren't range anymore...yeah...
You can't shoot a hive and shoot a fade at the same time. They shoot something that's not you, you hit them. They look at you, you move. It's not complicated.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If 2 shotgun marines are properly spaced, you have one chance to get a swipe or two in on one, after that the second marine is going to be staring at his buddy and the next time you close distance you will often take 150+ damage. This sounds fine except a swipe or two is basically useless when you have to spend at least 30 seconds going to a hive and healing, or else taking regen and becoming practically useless vs LMG marines as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Carapace sucks on fade. Stop using it. Get regen. Leave when you've taken damage. If you get soloed by an LMG marine as a fade without carapace, you are bad. Period. There is no excuse for that. If you are attacking 2 shotgun marines by yourself, who are prepared for you, you are bad. Stop it. Every example is some ridiculous situation where the fade SHOULD lose if they're making the stupidest possible engagement that they can. No wonder people think the fade is weak if they're expecting to solo an entire group of marines in the most predictable and slow way possible. Stop playing the fade like it's an onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2013064:date=Nov 6 2012, 03:14 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Nov 6 2012, 03:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013064"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2 shotgun marines are pushing an rt. The fade is the only lifeforms close / fast enough to respond. This forces the fade to attack.
Fade blinks in, lands 3 swipes, gets hit with 3 shotgun blasts. Dies.
is this the fades mistake? Should she just let the RT die?
You can change the word fade, to any lifeform except onos and the story is the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, they can't shoot the RT and shoot you at the same time. If one is shooting the RT then damage the other shotgun marine, when he looks at you leave and regen. Come back and finish him in 10 seconds. Then solo the other one. You'll slow them down enough to get backup or they'll both be dead by the time the RT is dead. If they want to sacrifice 2 shotguns for a RT that's going to be immediately rebuilt for 10 res, then I say go for it.
If a Fade can beat two shotguns without needing any skill or thought, then the fade is overpowered. What should the marines have to field to kill ONE fade? Three shotguns? Four shotguns? A few exos? How powerful is the Fade supposed to be?
Ok, then I get to assume the Fade died again. Err, actually, its not that likely he'd be able to afford another Fade for a long time, so nevermind...
Because armories are the only way for marines to regain health? Actually, that's a fair assumption, since it's so common to drop one at virtually any rally point. Throw in a welder or two and no amount of "wearing down" is practical. You either rush the marine position with enough force, or they're not budging.
Lerk spikes are a joke, damage wise, and spores aren't range anymore...yeah...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A none upgraded marine dies in less than 5seconds to direct hits from the spikes, they aren't useless.
My assumptions are made towards the people who constantly say "I as a FADE die" but its never the other way around and people dont consider the other way around.
Ofcourse the fade can die and damn it happens because its the nature of the game, you dont want a unstoppable fade or any other life form.
Everyone is making marines sound like gods.
I'm also not "magically" assuming things because marines do tend to die and you can make them die if you attack them.
If you're the fade and you quickly realize that there are shotgun marines, ask your other buddies to take em out "prefered skulls" - Do you even try to think of team-play?
Also, Plunkies seems to know the truth about all of this, prepps to you buddy :)
My assumptions are made towards the people who constantly say "I as a FADE die" but its never the other way around and people dont consider the other way around.
Ofcourse the fade can die and damn it happens because its the nature of the game, you dont want a unstoppable fade or any other life form.
Everyone is making marines sound like gods.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a marine? Lol as a marine you grab a Jetpack and a Shotgun and go out fade hunting...
Its a hard sport these days fade hunting, do you know why?
Cos fades are really hard to kill because they are badass... no...
Because no one fades anymore, when they do they are dead before you even get the chance to go hunt them.
"They have a fade, oh... never mind... dead fade." and due to them costing so much res people who die as them
generally don't get enough res to re-fade the same game.
(unless aliens are winning and spending 1000 years trying to break a marine turtle)