If blink didn't even need researching and fades cost 40 res then:
Fade: lifeform (40) = 40
Shotgun: weapon (20), research (20) = 40 + time to build and research
I'm not counting the armoury because it's built anyway, but this is about the cost of a fade as it should be worth in my opinion. Keep in mind shotguns need w1 to 2shot fades unless they changed it without me knowing. Any decent marine should be able to solo a fade with w1 shotgun right now. They are about equal in 1v1 strength if the fade is good. In 221 fades had excellent damage and armour, and were worth a bit more than a jetpack shotgun marine in efficiency. I think if they brought those values for armour and damage back but nerfed the damage a little bit they would be fine, especially with how good hit registry and framerate is now. If the onos was nerfed then the 5min onos would become 8min double fade, which seems fine to me to give up a second hive for.
The idea of the fade is not to run in and "Swipe swipe swipe" untill a marine is dead. The idea is to blink in (prefered behind the marines) and hit once and then blink out
<!--quoteo(post=2013118:date=Nov 6 2012, 03:50 PM:name=Tharidor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tharidor @ Nov 6 2012, 03:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A none upgraded marine dies in less than 5seconds to direct hits from the spikes, they aren't useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're assuming no upgrades, now? Fine. It turns out that marines also have a default ranged weapon which can deal even more damage at range. You won't get 5 seconds to shoot the marine without him strafing or shooting back. I am making the assumption that the marine isn't brain-dead.
If the marine is armory humping, you're not going to "wear him down". You can solo a lone marine, sure. But honestly it's cheaper (and about as easy) to do the same as skulk. Keep those pres for an Onos to end the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My assumptions are made towards the people who constantly say "I as a FADE die" but its never the other way around and people dont consider the other way around. Ofcourse the fade can die and damn it happens because its the nature of the game, you dont want a unstoppable fade or any other life form.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Of course you don't want an invincible Fade. No one is asking for that. That should go without saying.
However, dying as a Fade is generally much more detrimental than dying with a shotgun.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm also not "magically" assuming things because marines do tend to die and you can make them die if you attack them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Turns out that Fades tend to die if you attack them as well. The consequences of dying are generally much more dire for the fade, however.
The idea of the fade is not to run in and "Swipe swipe swipe" untill a marine is dead. The idea is to blink in (prefered behind the marines) and hit once and then blink out
+1 this is just correct.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats hardly a valid tactic and if you wanna spend 50 res to be almost useless like this then please don't join my team
<!--quoteo(post=2013143:date=Nov 6 2012, 10:05 PM:name=Jiggles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiggles @ Nov 6 2012, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're assuming no upgrades, now? Fine. It turns out that marines also have a default ranged weapon which can deal even more damage at range. You won't get 5 seconds to shoot the marine without him strafing or shooting back. I am making the assumption that the marine isn't brain-dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Granted that in a DUEL between a lerk and a marine is obvious who is going to win. But picture yourself a big room with dark areas in the room, and lets add a twist, the power is out. Then as the marine enters the room he gets spiked in the face and if he doesn't do something quickly, he will die. Follwing a marine around with your aim as he tries to dodge isn't all too hard especially considering the fire rate of the spikes. Granted that if the marine is brain-dead its even easier.
<!--quoteo(post=2013153:date=Nov 6 2012, 10:13 PM:name=Cane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cane @ Nov 6 2012, 10:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013153"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats hardly a valid tactic and if you wanna spend 50 res to be almost useless like this then please don't join my team<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good riddance, I wont even want to join your team.
<!--quoteo(post=2013143:date=Nov 6 2012, 10:05 PM:name=Jiggles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiggles @ Nov 6 2012, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course you don't want an invincible Fade. No one is asking for that. That should go without saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you even seen some of the "solutations" people have come up with? They're mind blowing of invincibility.
<!--quoteo(post=2013157:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:16 PM:name=Tharidor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tharidor @ Nov 6 2012, 04:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Granted that in a DUEL between a lerk and a marine is obvious who is going to win. But picture yourself a big room with dark areas in the room, and lets add a twist, the power is out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, let's add this twist instead: the Lerk player accidentally hits his tilde key, then types in "kill" followed by return.
Stop assuming things that greatly tip the scales to one side.
<!--quoteo(post=2013163:date=Nov 6 2012, 10:21 PM:name=Jiggles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiggles @ Nov 6 2012, 10:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, let's add this twist instead: the Lerk player accidentally hits his tilde key, then types in "kill" followed by return.
Stop assuming things that greatly tip the scales to one side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not. I'm trying to tell you that spikes aren't useless and that using spikes in a duel with a marine is stupid. You're suppose to hide and use spikes, not fly infront of them spiking them and ASKING them to PLEASE SHOOT ME.
Theres 100 different problems and just fixing the fade will have no effect on the rest of them.. JP is too slow which makes fade vs jp easy for fade, provided you dont get 2shot cause the fades HP is too low. Buffing fade HP will make them lolsteamroll, especially with the current hitreg. Fix hitreg, then fix fade hp. Fade HP shouuld be 250/100 default, carapace being 50 or 75 more armor from there (50 with how bad regen is tbh). But fixing the fade is another bandaid for no pres when dead, onos, exos and the other major balance issues. There is no possible way to make onos reasonable without major changes to exos, otherwise its too weak and gets mowed down by those, or its too strong and just walks 3 3/3 marines with shotguns. Balancing the game around the onos will always lead to boring, frustrating games. Playing fade/jp currently in NS2 is somewhat acceptable (bleh), but exos and onos are super frustrating to fight, exos being super random and either almost instantly kill you, or miss every shot somehow. Onos has a mile long gore range, can charge way to much and has an AOE gore (WTF ????). Fixing those issues would go an extremely long way in making the game alot less frustrating to play.
<!--quoteo(post=2013125:date=Nov 6 2012, 03:55 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 6 2012, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a marine? Lol as a marine you grab a Jetpack and a Shotgun and go out fade hunting... Its a hard sport these days fade hunting, do you know why? Cos fades are really hard to kill because they are badass... no... Because no one fades anymore, when they do they are dead before you even get the chance to go hunt them. "They have a fade, oh... never mind... dead fade." and due to them costing so much res people who die as them generally don't get enough res to re-fade the same game.
(unless aliens are winning and spending 1000 years trying to break a marine turtle)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Literally every alien game where I'm actually trying, I say the same thing to commanders. "Get me adrenaline, regen, and blink, and I'll win the game for you." I wish this game had persistent stats with each weapon/lifeform, because I guarantee my Fade is at least 10 kills to every 1 death.
The onos is idiot-proof. Anyone can do well with the onos. I don't want the fade to be the same way. The fade should take skill. It shouldn't be a class that's ultra durable AND ultra evasive.
But if Fades don't <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->EVER<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> get Focus Swipe, I really don't see the point in using em anymore WITHOUT <b>Metabolize</b> making a return, for the following reasons:
-<i>1.) I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Fades <b>spend more time</b> <u>HEALING</u> than they do <u>attacking</u>.</i>
-2.) By the time a Fade returns to a Hive to heal, a <u>Marine can easily heal back up to 100%</u> in that time alone.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->HOWEVER <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> -If given the Focus Swipe, then a Fade's assassin role is <b>exemplified</b>.
><b>Why is the Fade so vulnerable and WEAK for a 50 RES lifeform?</b>
-The Metabolize ability (regenerating health and adrenaline), even without Focus Swipe, would make the trip back to the hive less of a hassle.
-<u>As a Fade, you can only really gain <b><!--coloro:#FFFACD--><span style="color:#FFFACD"><!--/coloro-->1-2 light-feathered<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> attacks against Armor 3 Marines before you suffer fatal damage.</b></u>
Thus, the Fade's presence is <u>overstayed</u> due to the <b>lack</b> of <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Focus Swipe<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, <b>which would allow ample damage to be done <u>WITHOUT having an overstayed presence</u></b>.
But what are we stuck with? >We're stuck with a <u>giant, 50 res lifeform where fighting like a Skulk is the <b>only way</b></u> to do considerable damage before Marines heal up again.
It's <i><b>ILLOGICAL.</b></i>
><b>Why</b> are UWE ignoring NS1 Fade abilities without valid justification? Which brings us to the next question in regards to Fades vs. Turtled Marines
><b>Why are UWE ignoring <u>ACID ROCKET?</u></b>, Acid Rocket has proven to be a formidable weapon against <b>turtling</b> Marines in NS1, such as <u>weakening their armor</u> before the Fade can <u>move in with the Focus Swipe</u> to finish it off.
If your using adren fade your doing it very wrong, people need to stop spamming shadowstep in combat thinking its going to make them harder to hit, people that can actually aim are just going to shoot your dumb *** as your wasting time.
In pubs a good fade can make a huge difference, but against marine teams with good coordination and/or a couple good shots it becomes immensly more difficult. There is a reason why comp players go fast onos instead of a flash fade.
<!--quoteo(post=2013183:date=Nov 6 2012, 01:37 PM:name=Plunkies)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Plunkies @ Nov 6 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Literally every alien game where I'm actually trying, I say the same thing to commanders. "Get me adrenaline, regen, and blink, and I'll win the game for you." I wish this game had persistent stats with each weapon/lifeform, because I guarantee my Fade is at least 10 kills to every 1 death.
The onos is idiot-proof. Anyone can do well with the onos. I don't want the fade to be the same way. The fade should take skill. It shouldn't be a class that's ultra durable AND ultra evasive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or, whether I'm an idiot or not, I could get 70 kills and destroy hundreds of Tres in structures as an Onos. Fades are not fun right now for the 1 out of 20 games I actually decide to choose it. It's clunky and out of combat way too long for me to not wait a few more minutes to pick the superior lifeform.
When the assassins find their niche I will pick up the scythes again because I prefer the twitchy instant-decision making playstyle of the Fade.
<!--quoteo(post=2013195:date=Nov 6 2012, 09:42 PM:name=Zomb3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zomb3h @ Nov 6 2012, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>FORGET </b>about the whole Kharaa as a whole.
But if Fades don't <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->EVER<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> get Focus Swipe, I really don't see the point in using em anymore WITHOUT <b>Metabolize</b> making a return, for the following reasons:
-<i>1.) I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Fades <b>spend more time</b> <u>HEALING</u> than they do <u>attacking</u>.</i>
-2.) By the time a Fade returns to a Hive to heal, a <u>Marine can easily heal back up to 100%</u> in that time alone.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->HOWEVER <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> -If given the Focus Swipe, then a Fade's assassin role is <b>exemplified</b>.
><b>Why is the Fade so vulnerable and WEAK for a 50 RES lifeform?</b>
-The Metabolize ability (regenerating health and adrenaline), even without Focus Swipe, would make the trip back to the hive less of a hassle.
-<u>As a Fade, you can only really gain <b><!--coloro:#FFFACD--><span style="color:#FFFACD"><!--/coloro-->1-2 light-feathered<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> attacks against Armor 3 Marines before you suffer fatal damage.</b></u>
Thus, the Fade's presence is <u>overstayed</u> due to the <b>lack</b> of <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Focus Swipe<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, <b>which would allow ample damage to be done <u>WITHOUT having an overstayed presence</u></b>.
But what are we stuck with? >We're stuck with a <u>giant, 50 res lifeform where fighting like a Skulk is the <b>only way</b></u> to do considerable damage before Marines heal up again.
It's <i><b>ILLOGICAL.</b></i>
><b>Why</b> are UWE ignoring NS1 Fade abilities without valid justification? Which brings us to the next question in regards to Fades vs. Turtled Marines
><b>Why are UWE ignoring <u>ACID ROCKET?</u></b>, Acid Rocket has proven to be a formidable weapon against <b>turtling</b> Marines in NS1, such as <u>weakening their armor</u> before the Fade can <u>move in with the Focus Swipe</u> to finish it off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you... Quoted for brilliance.
As I keep saying: Metabolism stopped fades having to stand next to hives for 1000 years. Focus stopped fades having to stand around in fights pathetically instead of what they are supposed to be doing. (Hitting and running.)
<!--quoteo(post=2013196:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:42 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 6 2012, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013196"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If your using adren fade your doing it very wrong, people need to stop spamming shadowstep in combat thinking its going to make them harder to hit, people that can actually aim are just going to shoot your dumb *** as your wasting time.
In pubs a good fade can make a huge difference, but against marine teams with good coordination and/or a couple good shots it becomes immensly more difficult. There is a reason why comp players go fast onos instead of a flash fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They go Onos instead instead of Fade because the Fade is completely worthless at the moment.
I just got out of a back forth game where I played fade. We were set up in elevator transfer, I had adren and regen. Marines set up right outside the door with an armory, a sentry nest, two shotguns with good aim and a couple of lmgs. I was successfully able to repeatedly blink into this crowded area and kill enemies, despite it being the least ideal possible situation to be in for a fade. If that's possible, then the fade is perfectly fine. I went fade at 60 res and i kept it alive well passed the 100 res mark.
<!--quoteo(post=2013301:date=Nov 6 2012, 11:15 PM:name=Plunkies)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Plunkies @ Nov 6 2012, 11:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just got out of a back forth game where I played fade. We were set up in elevator transfer, I had adren and regen. Marines set up right outside the door with an armory, a sentry nest, two shotguns with good aim and a couple of lmgs. I was successfully able to repeatedly blink into this crowded area and kill enemies, despite it being the least ideal possible situation to be in for a fade. If that's possible, then the fade is perfectly fine. I went fade at 60 res and i kept it alive well passed the 100 res mark.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its much more likely they were crap. Or wasted so much money on sentries had lvl 0 weapons.
Pub stomping is easy... because no matter how bad you are there are always people worse... The topic isnt about whether a fade can pub stomp because honestly you can pub stomp with pretty much anything these days...
The real question is why go fade when you can save 25 more res and go onos that is about 10 times as useful for your team? Fades are nothing but a mere shadow of it's former self which is a shame because the fade was amazing in NS1. In fact I enjoyed all lifeforms in NS ( except onos maybe) but in this game it's hard to enjoy the fade, lerk and gorge because they are so much more weak and shallow to play
<!--quoteo(post=2013322:date=Nov 6 2012, 06:29 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 6 2012, 06:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its much more likely they were crap. Or wasted so much money on sentries had lvl 0 weapons.
Pub stomping is easy... because no matter how bad you are there are always people worse... The topic isnt about whether a fade can pub stomp because honestly you can pub stomp with pretty much anything these days...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you're just bad at playing fade. That argument is pointless and can go both ways.
I know what a bad marine looks like. They weren't bad. They had ups, shotguns, and jetpacks. And they were only making offensive sentries. It was still very possible to blink in, do some damage or get a kill, and then blink out.
Now I don't understand what your pub stomping argument is. Are you saying the fade is underpowered, or are you saying the fade isn't viable in competitive play? Because those are two totally different questions that require different solutions.
<!--quoteo(post=2013338:date=Nov 6 2012, 11:40 PM:name=Plunkies)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Plunkies @ Nov 6 2012, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or you're just bad at playing fade. That argument is pointless and can go both ways.
I know what a bad marine looks like. They weren't bad. They had ups, shotguns, and jetpacks. And they were only making offensive sentries. It was still very possible to blink in, do some damage or get a kill, and then blink out.
Now I don't understand what your pub stomping argument is. Are you saying the fade is underpowered, or are you saying the fade isn't viable in competitive play? Because those are two totally different questions that require different solutions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am saying that a fade is good at killing un-upgraded marines and killing marines that are running around the map on their own. I am saying that a fade is powerful early game if it has both carapace and celerity.
I am saying that an un-upgraded fade is utterly useless. I am saying that the majority of the time a fade gets a kill it could have equally been done by a skulk. I am saying that for a 50 res investment very few benefits are gained. And I am saying that a late game fade is made utterly pointless by its pathetic hp, inability to do damage quickly and then leave, weeks spent stood at a hive healing and thus the game relies entirely on onos spam.
Yeah, that's been my general impression. Yes, people practicing and getting good at Fade, recognizing the situations for his use, can get some pretty awesome killstreaks.
So can the same players playing as Skulk. Which costs nothing. If a newbie is going to spend his hard-earned 50 resources, he really needs to get something that makes him FEEL like a super-powerful assassin. Note: I'm still not in such support of buffing Fade HP/Armor, but rather finding any way to make them more survivable, EVEN in the hands of someone who has only played 3 or so hours. This survivability trait might even trade away some offensive capabilities (if you choose to use it) People will get very, very little practice as Fade if their only chance to play it results in dying 30 seconds later.
<!--quoteo(post=2013338:date=Nov 6 2012, 03:40 PM:name=Plunkies)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Plunkies @ Nov 6 2012, 03:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or you're just bad at playing fade. That argument is pointless and can go both ways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the argument is not pointless and it DOES NOT go both ways.
A lot of the people in this thread complaining about fade, are demonstrable the best fade players in NS2 on the planet.
Competitive players playing at the top of their game. Winning sponsored tournaments.
You are playing a in a public server against random players. it is safe to assume the average skill level in the server is not up to the level of a final round tournament team.
So yes, he can argue skill level.
Go play in some gathers with top players, get bodied, then come back and tell us that the fade is a good lifeform.
In-fact I would actually go as far as arguing that if a Skulk was given Blink/shadowstep instead of leap and thus the ability to actually escape from a combat they haven't entirely won. (its easy to escape if you leave all the marines dead, but if you actually try bite and leap away its very difficult to escape.) Then I would argue the skulk is as EQUALLY viable in combat as the fade and the only reason that a fade is at all better late game is because every time you make an attack your as a skulk you will do the same damage as a fade would but are unable to escape and thus you have to wait 24 seconds to re-spawn, a further 3 seconds to get your upgrades and then between 10-30 seconds walking back to the hive you were trying to defend due to being unable to pick your spawn.
Is this an advantage... Yes... Should the only advantage of a 50 res life form be doing the exact same damage as a 0 res life form without the inconvenience of having to wait to re-spawn because you are actually able to escape?
I was definitely one of the people who cried foul on b221 fades, they were so overpowered they were literally getting 145-0 k:d ratio and were making the game un-fun for everyone in it including the aliens on the fades team just out of shear boredom with nothing to kill.
But the current fade build does seem rather weak, I am not that good at fade but when I do play one I usually get my arse handed to me lol. In b221 any idiot could play a fade and instantly be godlike as long as he wasn't absolutely horrible at aiming. Now it kinda seems like fades are only good in the hands of a very skilled player which kinda behooves there usefulness as a 50 res lifeform. I made a thread a long time ago complaining about fades being too powerful and how even a full squad of marines would often die to just one fade. But I never wanted Fades to be easily kill-able by one marine with a shottie ;/ I wanted them to die easily to a squad of marines which is how it should be, but the current fades are so weak I kill them solo.
<!--quoteo(post=2013428:date=Nov 6 2012, 08:09 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Nov 6 2012, 08:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the argument is not pointless and it DOES NOT go both ways.
A lot of the people in this thread complaining about fade, are demonstrable the best fade players in NS2 on the planet.
Competitive players playing at the top of their game. Winning sponsored tournaments.
You are playing a in a public server against random players. it is safe to assume the average skill level in the server is not up to the level of a final round tournament team.
So yes, he can argue skill level.
Go play in some gathers with top players, get bodied, then come back and tell us that the fade is a good lifeform.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, fade being underpowered and fade being viable in competitive play are totally different issues. I'm arguing that the fade is not at all underpowered and as a result, does not need a flat hitpoint upgrade which would significantly impact all types of games, competitive and pub alike. I'm not familiar with the competitive NS2 scene, but if I take your word for it that the fade isn't viable, then the issue needs to be solved by giving the fade more tools, preferably skill based.
I agree that fades are a bit lackluster. I thought they were in a really good spot with the release of the exo's. Then UWE changed not only the fade but they reworked adrenaline. This caused fades to take a DOUBLE TAP TO ITS BALLS!!!
Really need to just rework the fades adrenaline so it allows the fade to be far more mobile then what it is. Since the fade can't really heal he needs to be able to constantly just hit and blink. Hit one time blink to avoid as much damage as possible, but even with adrenaline upgrade you can't do this his adrenaline regen is to slow. You should be able to blink up then back down on top of groups of marines multiple times before draining your adrenaline completely but, you will be completely deprived of adrenaline then not capable of getting away if you try this. So what we are seeing fades due is blink in swipe blink out of that room wait to regain adrenaline then blink back in. Rather then being able to constantly move around the marine forcing him to miss more often.
Simple fix is to improve the fades mobility by increasing the fades adrenaline regen. This will allow fades to still be kill-able but give them more sustainability from movement.
Fades are not a tank life form but many new players try to use them as such. Gorges can tank better than fades and if you really want to tank, save for an onos.
In NS1, for some reason, fades appeared at different times (I don't really remember). Whilst lots of people used them, a common team I remember is 2 fades, a lerk, 2 gorges and skulks. Fades were memorable, lerks annoying, skulks had space to operate, onos rarely appeared.
In NS2, with team-wide income, the whole team reaches fade at around the same point. Rather than facing 1 fade, the marine team could suddenly be facing 6 of them. (in my NS2 matches, this happens with onos - as soon as 75 res is reached, 2-3 of the team all change to onos).
So maybe part of the solution is to change that - limit the higher lifeforms. If you have 1 hive, you can have 1 of each lifeform higher than skulk. With 2 hives, 2 of each etc.
At that point, you can make the fade into a usable 'monster' without fear of walking into 5 of them.
It should be obvious that the solution isn't ideal (expect to see: "I'm a better fade, so change lifeform noob"), but IMHO it would be more interesting.
The appearance of fades used to be staggered due to res for kills, but the counter to your argument is that now marines frequently have multiple shotguns much earlier than before because the comm only needs to research them and doesn't need to use his precious res (delaying tech and structures) because marines have pres. I don't necessarily think that the fade should be as strong as it was in NS1 but to say 'the fade has to be weak because now you can have a whole team of fades' without looking at all the other changes isn't really helping matters.
Ideally the game would be structured so that you need some aliens to go gorge and lerk in order to not fail in your early expansion / defense, so that you would only have 1 or 2 fades showing up at the same time. The fact is that all the lifeforms below onos are weak enough that it's hard for them to be a real upgrade over a skulk worth taking the risk of dying and losing your resources when your whole team of 2-hive skulks will become onos if you can hold out long enough (I'm totally ignoring comm onos egg drops because it's obviously out of balance atm)
Comments
Fade: lifeform (40) = 40
Shotgun: weapon (20), research (20) = 40 + time to build and research
I'm not counting the armoury because it's built anyway, but this is about the cost of a fade as it should be worth in my opinion. Keep in mind shotguns need w1 to 2shot fades unless they changed it without me knowing. Any decent marine should be able to solo a fade with w1 shotgun right now. They are about equal in 1v1 strength if the fade is good. In 221 fades had excellent damage and armour, and were worth a bit more than a jetpack shotgun marine in efficiency. I think if they brought those values for armour and damage back but nerfed the damage a little bit they would be fine, especially with how good hit registry and framerate is now. If the onos was nerfed then the 5min onos would become 8min double fade, which seems fine to me to give up a second hive for.
The idea of the fade is not to run in and "Swipe swipe swipe" untill a marine is dead. The idea is to blink in (prefered behind the marines) and hit once and then blink out
+1 this is just correct.
Fine. It turns out that marines also have a default ranged weapon which can deal even more damage at range. You won't get 5 seconds to shoot the marine without him strafing or shooting back. I am making the assumption that the marine isn't brain-dead.
If the marine is armory humping, you're not going to "wear him down". You can solo a lone marine, sure. But honestly it's cheaper (and about as easy) to do the same as skulk. Keep those pres for an Onos to end the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My assumptions are made towards the people who constantly say "I as a FADE die" but its never the other way around and people dont consider the other way around.
Ofcourse the fade can die and damn it happens because its the nature of the game, you dont want a unstoppable fade or any other life form.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Of course you don't want an invincible Fade. No one is asking for that. That should go without saying.
However, dying as a Fade is generally much more detrimental than dying with a shotgun.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm also not "magically" assuming things because marines do tend to die and you can make them die if you attack them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Turns out that Fades tend to die if you attack them as well. The consequences of dying are generally much more dire for the fade, however.
The idea of the fade is not to run in and "Swipe swipe swipe" untill a marine is dead. The idea is to blink in (prefered behind the marines) and hit once and then blink out
+1 this is just correct.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats hardly a valid tactic and if you wanna spend 50 res to be almost useless like this then please don't join my team
Fine. It turns out that marines also have a default ranged weapon which can deal even more damage at range. You won't get 5 seconds to shoot the marine without him strafing or shooting back. I am making the assumption that the marine isn't brain-dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Granted that in a DUEL between a lerk and a marine is obvious who is going to win. But picture yourself a big room with dark areas in the room, and lets add a twist, the power is out. Then as the marine enters the room he gets spiked in the face and if he doesn't do something quickly, he will die. Follwing a marine around with your aim as he tries to dodge isn't all too hard especially considering the fire rate of the spikes. Granted that if the marine is brain-dead its even easier.
<!--quoteo(post=2013153:date=Nov 6 2012, 10:13 PM:name=Cane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cane @ Nov 6 2012, 10:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013153"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats hardly a valid tactic and if you wanna spend 50 res to be almost useless like this then please don't join my team<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good riddance, I wont even want to join your team.
<!--quoteo(post=2013143:date=Nov 6 2012, 10:05 PM:name=Jiggles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiggles @ Nov 6 2012, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course you don't want an invincible Fade. No one is asking for that. That should go without saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you even seen some of the "solutations" people have come up with? They're mind blowing of invincibility.
Stop assuming things that greatly tip the scales to one side.
Stop assuming things that greatly tip the scales to one side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not. I'm trying to tell you that spikes aren't useless and that using spikes in a duel with a marine is stupid. You're suppose to hide and use spikes, not fly infront of them spiking them and ASKING them to PLEASE SHOOT ME.
Its a hard sport these days fade hunting, do you know why?
Cos fades are really hard to kill because they are badass... no...
Because no one fades anymore, when they do they are dead before you even get the chance to go hunt them.
"They have a fade, oh... never mind... dead fade." and due to them costing so much res people who die as them
generally don't get enough res to re-fade the same game.
(unless aliens are winning and spending 1000 years trying to break a marine turtle)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Literally every alien game where I'm actually trying, I say the same thing to commanders. "Get me adrenaline, regen, and blink, and I'll win the game for you." I wish this game had persistent stats with each weapon/lifeform, because I guarantee my Fade is at least 10 kills to every 1 death.
The onos is idiot-proof. Anyone can do well with the onos. I don't want the fade to be the same way. The fade should take skill. It shouldn't be a class that's ultra durable AND ultra evasive.
But if Fades don't <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->EVER<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> get Focus Swipe, I really don't see the point in using em anymore WITHOUT <b>Metabolize</b> making a return, for the following reasons:
-<i>1.) I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Fades <b>spend more time</b> <u>HEALING</u> than they do <u>attacking</u>.</i>
-2.) By the time a Fade returns to a Hive to heal, a <u>Marine can easily heal back up to 100%</u> in that time alone.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->HOWEVER
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
-If given the Focus Swipe, then a Fade's assassin role is <b>exemplified</b>.
><b>Why is the Fade so vulnerable and WEAK for a 50 RES lifeform?</b>
-The Metabolize ability (regenerating health and adrenaline), even without Focus Swipe, would make the trip back to the hive less of a hassle.
-<u>As a Fade, you can only really gain <b><!--coloro:#FFFACD--><span style="color:#FFFACD"><!--/coloro-->1-2 light-feathered<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> attacks against Armor 3 Marines before you suffer fatal damage.</b></u>
Thus, the Fade's presence is <u>overstayed</u> due to the <b>lack</b> of <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Focus Swipe<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, <b>which would allow ample damage to be done <u>WITHOUT having an overstayed presence</u></b>.
But what are we stuck with?
>We're stuck with a <u>giant, 50 res lifeform where fighting like a Skulk is the <b>only way</b></u> to do considerable damage before Marines heal up again.
It's <i><b>ILLOGICAL.</b></i>
><b>Why</b> are UWE ignoring NS1 Fade abilities without valid justification?
Which brings us to the next question in regards to Fades vs. Turtled Marines
><b>Why are UWE ignoring <u>ACID ROCKET?</u></b>,
Acid Rocket has proven to be a formidable weapon against <b>turtling</b> Marines in NS1, such as <u>weakening their armor</u> before the Fade can <u>move in with the Focus Swipe</u> to finish it off.
In pubs a good fade can make a huge difference, but against marine teams with good coordination and/or a couple good shots it becomes immensly more difficult. There is a reason why comp players go fast onos instead of a flash fade.
The onos is idiot-proof. Anyone can do well with the onos. I don't want the fade to be the same way. The fade should take skill. It shouldn't be a class that's ultra durable AND ultra evasive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or, whether I'm an idiot or not, I could get 70 kills and destroy hundreds of Tres in structures as an Onos. Fades are not fun right now for the 1 out of 20 games I actually decide to choose it. It's clunky and out of combat way too long for me to not wait a few more minutes to pick the superior lifeform.
When the assassins find their niche I will pick up the scythes again because I prefer the twitchy instant-decision making playstyle of the Fade.
But if Fades don't <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->EVER<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> get Focus Swipe, I really don't see the point in using em anymore WITHOUT <b>Metabolize</b> making a return, for the following reasons:
-<i>1.) I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Fades <b>spend more time</b> <u>HEALING</u> than they do <u>attacking</u>.</i>
-2.) By the time a Fade returns to a Hive to heal, a <u>Marine can easily heal back up to 100%</u> in that time alone.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->HOWEVER
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
-If given the Focus Swipe, then a Fade's assassin role is <b>exemplified</b>.
><b>Why is the Fade so vulnerable and WEAK for a 50 RES lifeform?</b>
-The Metabolize ability (regenerating health and adrenaline), even without Focus Swipe, would make the trip back to the hive less of a hassle.
-<u>As a Fade, you can only really gain <b><!--coloro:#FFFACD--><span style="color:#FFFACD"><!--/coloro-->1-2 light-feathered<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> attacks against Armor 3 Marines before you suffer fatal damage.</b></u>
Thus, the Fade's presence is <u>overstayed</u> due to the <b>lack</b> of <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Focus Swipe<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, <b>which would allow ample damage to be done <u>WITHOUT having an overstayed presence</u></b>.
But what are we stuck with?
>We're stuck with a <u>giant, 50 res lifeform where fighting like a Skulk is the <b>only way</b></u> to do considerable damage before Marines heal up again.
It's <i><b>ILLOGICAL.</b></i>
><b>Why</b> are UWE ignoring NS1 Fade abilities without valid justification?
Which brings us to the next question in regards to Fades vs. Turtled Marines
><b>Why are UWE ignoring <u>ACID ROCKET?</u></b>,
Acid Rocket has proven to be a formidable weapon against <b>turtling</b> Marines in NS1, such as <u>weakening their armor</u> before the Fade can <u>move in with the Focus Swipe</u> to finish it off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you...
Quoted for brilliance.
As I keep saying:
Metabolism stopped fades having to stand next to hives for 1000 years.
Focus stopped fades having to stand around in fights pathetically instead of what they are supposed to be doing. (Hitting and running.)
In pubs a good fade can make a huge difference, but against marine teams with good coordination and/or a couple good shots it becomes immensly more difficult. There is a reason why comp players go fast onos instead of a flash fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They go Onos instead instead of Fade because the Fade is completely worthless at the moment.
Its much more likely they were crap.
Or wasted so much money on sentries had lvl 0 weapons.
Pub stomping is easy... because no matter how bad you are there are always people worse...
The topic isnt about whether a fade can pub stomp because honestly you can pub stomp with pretty much anything these days...
You could be the best possible fade in the game currently, and it wouldnt matter... and if your using adren then I already know your not.
Or wasted so much money on sentries had lvl 0 weapons.
Pub stomping is easy... because no matter how bad you are there are always people worse...
The topic isnt about whether a fade can pub stomp because honestly you can pub stomp with pretty much anything these days...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you're just bad at playing fade. That argument is pointless and can go both ways.
I know what a bad marine looks like. They weren't bad. They had ups, shotguns, and jetpacks. And they were only making offensive sentries. It was still very possible to blink in, do some damage or get a kill, and then blink out.
Now I don't understand what your pub stomping argument is. Are you saying the fade is underpowered, or are you saying the fade isn't viable in competitive play? Because those are two totally different questions that require different solutions.
I know what a bad marine looks like. They weren't bad. They had ups, shotguns, and jetpacks. And they were only making offensive sentries. It was still very possible to blink in, do some damage or get a kill, and then blink out.
Now I don't understand what your pub stomping argument is. Are you saying the fade is underpowered, or are you saying the fade isn't viable in competitive play? Because those are two totally different questions that require different solutions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am saying that a fade is good at killing un-upgraded marines and killing marines that are running around the map on their own.
I am saying that a fade is powerful early game if it has both carapace and celerity.
I am saying that an un-upgraded fade is utterly useless. I am saying that the majority of the time a fade gets a kill it could have equally been done by a skulk. I am saying that for a 50 res investment very few benefits are gained. And I am saying that a late game fade is made utterly pointless by its pathetic hp, inability to do damage quickly and then leave, weeks spent stood at a hive healing and thus the game relies entirely on onos spam.
So can the same players playing as Skulk. Which costs nothing. If a newbie is going to spend his hard-earned 50 resources, he really needs to get something that makes him FEEL like a super-powerful assassin. Note: I'm still not in such support of buffing Fade HP/Armor, but rather finding any way to make them more survivable, EVEN in the hands of someone who has only played 3 or so hours. This survivability trait might even trade away some offensive capabilities (if you choose to use it) People will get very, very little practice as Fade if their only chance to play it results in dying 30 seconds later.
the argument is not pointless and it DOES NOT go both ways.
A lot of the people in this thread complaining about fade, are demonstrable the best fade players in NS2 on the planet.
Competitive players playing at the top of their game. Winning sponsored tournaments.
You are playing a in a public server against random players. it is safe to assume the average skill level in the server is not up to the level of a final round tournament team.
So yes, he can argue skill level.
Go play in some gathers with top players, get bodied, then come back and tell us that the fade is a good lifeform.
Is this an advantage... Yes... Should the only advantage of a 50 res life form be doing the exact same damage as a 0 res life form without the inconvenience of having to wait to re-spawn because you are actually able to escape?
But the current fade build does seem rather weak, I am not that good at fade but when I do play one I usually get my arse handed to me lol. In b221 any idiot could play a fade and instantly be godlike as long as he wasn't absolutely horrible at aiming. Now it kinda seems like fades are only good in the hands of a very skilled player which kinda behooves there usefulness as a 50 res lifeform. I made a thread a long time ago complaining about fades being too powerful and how even a full squad of marines would often die to just one fade. But I never wanted Fades to be easily kill-able by one marine with a shottie ;/ I wanted them to die easily to a squad of marines which is how it should be, but the current fades are so weak I kill them solo.
A lot of the people in this thread complaining about fade, are demonstrable the best fade players in NS2 on the planet.
Competitive players playing at the top of their game. Winning sponsored tournaments.
You are playing a in a public server against random players. it is safe to assume the average skill level in the server is not up to the level of a final round tournament team.
So yes, he can argue skill level.
Go play in some gathers with top players, get bodied, then come back and tell us that the fade is a good lifeform.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, fade being underpowered and fade being viable in competitive play are totally different issues. I'm arguing that the fade is not at all underpowered and as a result, does not need a flat hitpoint upgrade which would significantly impact all types of games, competitive and pub alike. I'm not familiar with the competitive NS2 scene, but if I take your word for it that the fade isn't viable, then the issue needs to be solved by giving the fade more tools, preferably skill based.
Really need to just rework the fades adrenaline so it allows the fade to be far more mobile then what it is. Since the fade can't really heal he needs to be able to constantly just hit and blink. Hit one time blink to avoid as much damage as possible, but even with adrenaline upgrade you can't do this his adrenaline regen is to slow. You should be able to blink up then back down on top of groups of marines multiple times before draining your adrenaline completely but, you will be completely deprived of adrenaline then not capable of getting away if you try this. So what we are seeing fades due is blink in swipe blink out of that room wait to regain adrenaline then blink back in. Rather then being able to constantly move around the marine forcing him to miss more often.
Simple fix is to improve the fades mobility by increasing the fades adrenaline regen. This will allow fades to still be kill-able but give them more sustainability from movement.
In NS2, with team-wide income, the whole team reaches fade at around the same point. Rather than facing 1 fade, the marine team could suddenly be facing 6 of them. (in my NS2 matches, this happens with onos - as soon as 75 res is reached, 2-3 of the team all change to onos).
So maybe part of the solution is to change that - limit the higher lifeforms. If you have 1 hive, you can have 1 of each lifeform higher than skulk. With 2 hives, 2 of each etc.
At that point, you can make the fade into a usable 'monster' without fear of walking into 5 of them.
It should be obvious that the solution isn't ideal (expect to see: "I'm a better fade, so change lifeform noob"), but IMHO it would be more interesting.
Ideally the game would be structured so that you need some aliens to go gorge and lerk in order to not fail in your early expansion / defense, so that you would only have 1 or 2 fades showing up at the same time. The fact is that all the lifeforms below onos are weak enough that it's hard for them to be a real upgrade over a skulk worth taking the risk of dying and losing your resources when your whole team of 2-hive skulks will become onos if you can hold out long enough (I'm totally ignoring comm onos egg drops because it's obviously out of balance atm)