douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2009194:date=Nov 4 2012, 12:02 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 4 2012, 12:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This isn't true. This is just the easiest way. Can you modify the Lua scripts such that it effects elements of the game that really should be determined server side? (weapon damage and what not). If that's the case it won't be long before we've got DayZ scenarios where a cheater logs onto the server, turns everyone into a chicken, and makes them cockfight eachother....
I really hope the lua engine is a little more protected than you seem to imply.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you can't change serverside stuff without running your own server. If consistency checks are off you could build standard hacks though, like aimbots or wallhacks.
And yes, there are other ways to build hacks, but since there's no DLLs to hook into for gameplay code, your options are fairly limited. you might be able to build a packet sniffer that analyzes the server information sent to your client and displays it in another program, effectively giving you more information than the normal client will display. but the options are basically changing Lua, which is prevented by consistency checking, or creating an entirely separate program that runs in conjunction and does something like reads the screen and intercepts inputs or intercepts network information. It's much more difficult to do, and impossible to catch. The network intercept method can be prevented, however, by encoding or encrypting the packets. Not sure if this is done currently or not. and building something that reads your screen and intercepts input devices is hella hard and would be very slow and likely have terrible results.
<!--quoteo(post=2009709:date=Nov 4 2012, 12:07 PM:name=6john)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (6john @ Nov 4 2012, 12:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And yes, there are other ways to build hacks, but since there's no DLLs to hook into for gameplay code, your options are fairly limited. you might be able to build a packet sniffer that analyzes the server information sent to your client and displays it in another program, effectively giving you more information than the normal client will display. but the options are basically changing Lua, which is prevented by consistency checking, or creating an entirely separate program that runs in conjunction and does something like reads the screen and intercepts inputs or intercepts network information. It's much more difficult to do, and impossible to catch. The network intercept method can be prevented, however, by encoding or encrypting the packets. Not sure if this is done currently or not. and building something that reads your screen and intercepts input devices is hella hard and would be very slow and likely have terrible results.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a DLL you can mess with and doing so disables consistency checks. Then you can easily code hacks in LUA. I whine more about this topic <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=122284" target="_blank">here</a>. Check out my multiple posts there. I mention the imbalances caused by cheats (Aliens become mostly useless) and how more "non-cheaters" may start using cheats because of the lack of a significant punishment.
<!--quoteo(post=2009916:date=Nov 4 2012, 02:34 PM:name=Camron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camron @ Nov 4 2012, 02:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I mention the imbalances caused by cheats (Aliens become mostly useless) and how more "non-cheaters" may start using cheats because of the lack of a significant punishment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I seriously doubt that would happen. If the game became over-run with cheaters most people would probably just quit playing and not resort to cheating themselves.
<!--quoteo(post=2009957:date=Nov 4 2012, 03:03 PM:name=Warmonger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Warmonger @ Nov 4 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009957"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I seriously doubt that would happen. If the game became over-run with cheaters most people would probably just quit playing and not resort to cheating themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've seen it happen in other games. I don't just mean people resorting to cheats only after the game is overrun, I mean people who normally don't cheat using cheats anyway because "why not", "just for fun", "just gonna try them until they add an anti-cheat". Some people may use small cheats like fullbright and convince themselves it's not giving them that much of an advantage so "it's not really cheating". They having nothing to lose (there's no anti-cheat punishment).
<!--quoteo(post=2010001:date=Nov 4 2012, 03:44 PM:name=Camron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camron @ Nov 4 2012, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen it happen in other games. I don't just mean people resorting to cheats only after the game is overrun, I mean people who normally don't cheat using cheats anyway because "why not", "just for fun", "just gonna try them until they add an anti-cheat". Some people may use small cheats like fullbright and convince themselves it's not giving them that much of an advantage so "it's not really cheating". They having nothing to lose (there's no anti-cheat punishment).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Take a look at APB:R - any little exploit people can get away with - they sure try. like using the mouse wheel to fire a non-automatic weapon...
Talking about the previous quotes I had posted , some of those players simply don't seem to play games without cheats.. talking about they are waiting for a cheat so they can buy ns2 and play...
Its sad, people just can't enjoy a game unless they are doing awesome, and they resort to cheats to make them good....
<!--quoteo(post=2008594:date=Nov 3 2012, 04:21 PM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Nov 3 2012, 04:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008594"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Those who remain silent after some bull ###### are legit. Those who have an excuse for everything have something to hide. Just waiting on first person spectate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=2008972:date=Nov 3 2012, 08:53 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 3 2012, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008972"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, the thing we need most is FPerson spectator... :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=2009029:date=Nov 3 2012, 09:36 PM:name=Starkwind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Starkwind @ Nov 3 2012, 09:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just wish there was a first person spectator... Half of these topics would go away... why has this not been added in?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keep in mind FP spec mode may not always show what you're thinking it does. For example:
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=TF2 Wiki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TF2 Wiki)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spectators do not have lag compensation. If you are spectating someone in first person, you are not seeing exactly what they are seeing. This is especially noticeable with high-latency Snipers, where you should expect to see unusual shots that may appear to miss or jerk about from your perspective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Lag_compensation" target="_blank">Source</a>
<!--quoteo(post=2010434:date=Nov 5 2012, 12:49 AM:name=serpico)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (serpico @ Nov 5 2012, 12:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Keep in mind FP spec mode may not always show what you're thinking it does. For example:
<!--quoteo(post=2009672:date=Nov 4 2012, 03:25 PM:name=Sampson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sampson @ Nov 4 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->fana you need to chill out. you get away with a lot of ######ish comments on the forums.... you're the smartest person on the interwebs. congrats dawg<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lolz because accusing PT's of hacking isnt "######ish".... xD
<!--quoteo(post=2009191:date=Nov 3 2012, 11:00 PM:name=Xaragoth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xaragoth @ Nov 3 2012, 11:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I sometimes come across people like GORGEous. And I usually try to dodge them, because I know that he will brutally murder me and leave a trail of my bodyparts somewhere. Same goes for pretty much anyone else from the more well known pro teams :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2010440:date=Nov 4 2012, 08:55 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 4 2012, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010440"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its still better than nothing... :p
Lolz because accusing PT's of hacking isnt "######ish".... xD<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is saying a PTer cheating is worse than a regular player cheating? I was just trying to say it's out there. They don't need to always cheat. I'm not giving out names or giving exact accusations for a reason. And I didn't accuse every PTer of doing it?
As the game stands RIGHT now, i.e. one week after release, crying "cheater" at every opportunity is extremely acidic and detrimental to the community.
With all the new players running around, it is super easy for the experienced players to rack up impressive scores.
I myself, together with my mates, can easily get good scores on the public servers, and I'm sure that people who've played the beta for more than a few minutes can too. I have been accused of cheating on several occasions since release, due to sick K/DR:s, but my mates that I play with can testify I'm not, in fact, cheating. I'm merely just better than the ones I'm playing against. I'm not trying to boast my own skill, I'm merely trying to highlight the fact that inexperienced players have a hard time with this game right now, and hopefully they'll learn instead of crying "wolf" everytime they get killed.
Until there's proper proof that someone IS cheating, there's a good chance that the so called "cheater" is just really good.
However: I am NOT saying that cheating isn't a problem in any online game, and it's an issue that needs to be addressed, for sure. But until we have actual, infallible proof that someone is cheating, there is very little to be done in this regard. Serverside consistency checks and aware admins go a long way to sniff out any potential hackers.
Here's to hoping that NS2 wont become a cheaters' paradise, and that we all can enjoy the game on somewhat even footing.
<!--quoteo(post=2011137:date=Nov 5 2012, 07:19 AM:name=saltybp53)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (saltybp53 @ Nov 5 2012, 07:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The best power we have to combat cheaters is and will always be experienced server admins.
Besides, isn't NS2 the "360 trickshot" community of PC Gaming? Its the reason why I F4 whenever i see a pre-2008 forum member join a match.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> server admins with first person spectate? server-side demos? I don't deny that experienced server admins are the way to go, but they have zero tools to help them catch cheaters. unless someone is blatantly wallhacking or aimbotting, it's impossible to tell currently.
some guy named k\o\w earlier this evening somehow got behind the glass ceiling in NS2_docking, changed to gorge, then was able to bile the main base, all without any ability to shoot him. Constantly insisted that since he did that "all day" it was a legit tactic.
After witnessing five or more people almost certainly being falsely accused of cheating for a handful of well-aimed kills, I think I encountered the first actual on-off aimbot cheater in NS2 yesterday evening.
~50 kills with no or nearly no deaths over multiple rounds, and without bothering to set himself up in any way. His aim suddenly became very poor, too, when some accused him of cheating. And then he died a few times, only to resume killing without missing again after a while.
Can we get tempban voting or some other measures on the servers...?
<!--quoteo(post=2008568:date=Nov 3 2012, 10:02 PM:name=RMJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RMJ @ Nov 3 2012, 10:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One thing is certain, you will never have a esport game taken seriously, if there arent serious anti cheat counter measures.
You cant just go on good faith and such.
Its hard to judge if people are using wallhacks, because there are certain abilities that makes enemies viewable through walls like that skult spit thingy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think a small game called Counter Strike would like to have a word with you. Or have people already forgotten about lambert, spike models and dozens of different anti-cheat solutions, that in the worst case banned people for just using the wrong kinds of drivers for their graphics card?
And what did it help? It didn't do a damn thing, except for making the experience a complicated mess for legit users as they had to make sure their anti-cheat had been up to date, they had the right one running and it's not conflicting with anything else.
The sad reality is: There will always be cheating no matter what you do, if you increase the pressure and effort into preventing cheats you just start an race you only gonna lose. There will always be private and paid-for hacks that slip the net. So the easiest and best thing to do is to just live with it. A smart/good cheater is basically impossible to tell from a legit/good player so you can just assume he's simple a godlike good player and be done with it. But being paranoid about this only serves as excuses for people not to improve their own game "Oh he's obviously cheating, it's not my fault that i suck!"
And from my experience adding first person spectate does not help at all, usually it's making cheating accusations even worse. Had tons of times where people spectated me in games and ended up accusing me of cheating because "you snap to targets!!1" (What am i supposed to do? Move my mouse at a snails pace?).
You want a legit competitive scene? You gotta do LAN tournaments and even that is not a sure way to prevent cheating as there have been cases of people cheating during such events in hidden ways. But imho UWE has already enough on their plater do deal with before they can get into arms races with hackers.
<!--quoteo(post=2013959:date=Nov 7 2012, 09:08 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Nov 7 2012, 09:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a small game called Counter Strike would like to have a word with you. Or have people already forgotten about lambert, spike models and dozens of different anti-cheat solutions, that in the worst case banned people for just using the wrong kinds of drivers for their graphics card?
And what did it help? It didn't do a damn thing, except for making the experience a complicated mess for legit users as they had to make sure their anti-cheat had been up to date, they had the right one running and it's not conflicting with anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like Miranda Lambert and all but I really don't think she is interested in Ns2, let alone knows anything about Anti-cheating.
I kind of like the Idea of the game being a "program nazi" and forcing you to disable everything that isn't windows, anti-virus and game based. Any external program that isn't required by windows or the game to run, gets prompted to be turned off before the game loads.
All that is left after that point is file editing and with consistency checks, that can be controlled.
I don't like the idea of the game being a "program nazi", we already have way too much of that crap with DRM and copyprotections that screw up whole systems and makes troubleshooting the game a pita.
Your idea of an secure environment will simply never work on the PC platform (Easiest workround for that: Disguise your hack as part of an integral Windows service or an fake AV), if you really want to play in such an environment there are already platforms that accomplish this, they are called consoles (And guess what.. even those have cheating problems)
But the open nature of PC's comes with it's advantages and disadvantages. You can't have the advantages without having the disadvantages. People should realize that there is no such thing as an 100% secure digital environment, whatever gets engineered can be counter-engineered to find it's flaws. There is a reason VISA, Google, Banks and even the Pentagon got and get regularly hacked, it's not "sloppy security measures" it's the fact that there is no ultimate security and never will be.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2013925:date=Nov 7 2012, 01:08 PM:name=Radtoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Radtoo @ Nov 7 2012, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After witnessing five or more people almost certainly being falsely accused of cheating for a handful of well-aimed kills, I think I encountered the first actual on-off aimbot cheater in NS2 yesterday evening.
~50 kills with no or nearly no deaths over multiple rounds, and without bothering to set himself up in any way. His aim suddenly became very poor, too, when some accused him of cheating. And then he died a few times, only to resume killing without missing again after a while.
Can we get tempban voting or some other measures on the servers...?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Out of curiosity, was this on a combat server?
<!--quoteo(post=2014055:date=Nov 7 2012, 10:29 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Nov 7 2012, 10:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014055"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like the idea of the game being a "program nazi", we already have way too much of that crap with DRM and copyprotections that screw up whole systems and makes troubleshooting the game a pita.
Your idea of an secure environment will simply never work on the PC platform (Easiest workround for that: Disguise your hack as part of an integral Windows service or an fake AV), if you really want to play in such an environment there are already platforms that accomplish this, they are called consoles (And guess what.. even those have cheating problems)
But the open nature of PC's comes with it's advantages and disadvantages. You can't have the advantages without having the disadvantages. People should realize that there is no such thing as an 100% secure digital environment, whatever gets engineered can be counter-engineered to find it's flaws. There is a reason VISA, Google, Banks and even the Pentagon got and get regularly hacked, it's not "sloppy security measures" it's the fact that there is no ultimate security and never will be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so lets say fu** it then and not worry about controlling cheaters? Sounds good!
I'm sorry but as a pub game player I'm not satisfied with the "let the server admins handle it", "well just don't play with that clan" or "we'll sort those out in LAN" type answers. It comes across as rather pretentious to suggest that those are realistic solutions to a problem. Admins, clan reputation, and lanparties are non-existent in pub play. We need proper spectate and votekick.
like 90% of skulk players move slowly and predictably, perfect tracking on them is not uncommon at all. Wallhackers can't be caught without first person spectate either, There are people with good attention and gamesense that seem fishy to new players.
I've never seen a cheater in NS2, only bug abusers. And would I see one, I'd instantly record it. A lot of people think there is a limit to how good you actually can perform in a public game, but there really is none. What shows if someone is cheating? His mistakes, and not like the person suddenly misses a shot or dies a couple of times, but like acts really stupid so you think something really is horribly wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=2009187:date=Nov 4 2012, 05:56 AM:name=Schleppy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schleppy @ Nov 4 2012, 05:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How does one go about finding whether consistency checks are on on a server? Can't check via the browser and I am unaware of any console command that allows a client to see whether they are on or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You will clearly see in the console when you load into the server if consistency checking is on. It will post a lot of messages like:
<!--quoteo(post=2014176:date=Nov 7 2012, 04:53 PM:name=Pikachu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pikachu @ Nov 7 2012, 04:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry but as a pub game player I'm not satisfied with the "let the server admins handle it", "well just don't play with that clan" or "we'll sort those out in LAN" type answers. It comes across as rather pretentious to suggest that those are realistic solutions to a problem. Admins, clan reputation, and lanparties are non-existent in pub play. We need proper spectate and votekick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I used to be an 'anti-hacker' admin for a league a while ago, and I guarantee that public servers are where hackers let their guard down. Once demo recording makes it in it only takes one member to record/notice.
I can say without a doubt I have seen cheaters in beta, I have not seen any yet on live release.
I do also want vac or some other anticheat system like punkbuster or perhaps a uwe creation, But something to discourage the cheating. The Config checks are also handy as well as some other minor things like memory checks on the servers to prevent simple memory editing tools like Cheat engine.
Right now the game is completely open to all forms of cheating, and because of the open lua design of the game tools to create those cheats have already been provided.
<!--quoteo(post=2014162:date=Nov 7 2012, 05:33 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Nov 7 2012, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so lets say fu** it then and not worry about controlling cheaters? Sounds good!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When the game is not even feature complete yet, yes that's the best approach for now, as UWE only has limited resources/manpower and even with unlimited resources it's an endless struggle you can never ultimately win. And like i already described before: There is no way to discern between a smart cheater who's also a good player and a very good player without cheats.
As long as the cheater does not break game logic in an very obvious way (Running around with invul mode, no-reload, no-clip, speedhacks or similar) he is limited in what he can do to things anybody could do with the right situational awareness and quick reactions.
As such, the majority of cheating accusations usually boil down to sore losers and new players trying to shift the blame to somebody else because they can't stand losing or accepting that some people are simply better/more experienced at the game.
Does cheating exist? Sure.. but as long as there is no obvious breaking of game logic i consider playing against them a challenge and not an obstacle as there is never a 100% sure way to proof their cheating.
<!--quoteo(post=2014089:date=Nov 7 2012, 04:12 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 7 2012, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Out of curiosity, was this on a combat server?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was neither one with the "combat" mod (haven't played it yet) nor one with "'combat" in the server's name.
<!--quoteo(post=2014675:date=Nov 8 2012, 01:04 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Nov 8 2012, 01:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And like i already described before: There is no way to discern between a smart cheater who's also a good player and a very good player without cheats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yep, and?
It's reasonable enough for an absolute majority with 2/5 or so of the game's total votes involved to decide that they don't want to play with someone who clearly appears to be a cheater or otherwise unfair to *them*. 2-3h tempban from that server would be fine, really, and easy to implement.
At *worst*, the very good players get kicked out of games with newbies they totally dominated. So what? If the majority doesn't want to play with them, they shouldn't have to. Usually, it's just going to get used against cheaters and griefers, though.
<!--quoteo(post=2014675:date=Nov 7 2012, 08:04 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Nov 7 2012, 08:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And like i already described before: There is no way to discern between a smart cheater who's also a good player and a very good player without cheats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you have years of server admining under your belt? I assume not because you wouldn't make that statement. My judgment was never flawless but more often than not, a cheater has a tell. One of the CS gungame servers I adminned had a regular that received daily cheat accusations simply because he was just that much better than even the good players. And honestly, I used him as my benchmark for the tough calls.
---
That said, there has been only one player I've been curious about so far in NS2, other than the asshats scripting their pistols to fire the clip in <1 second. (The one guy I distrusted was rather impressive because every time he entered a room someone was hiding in, he would freeze 2 steps in, eyes to the ground...and then lock on without fail without actually looking around. Looked an awful lot like the early, early toggle aimbots that would lag the ###### out of the user when they turned it on.)
<!--quoteo(post=2013925:date=Nov 7 2012, 08:08 AM:name=Radtoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Radtoo @ Nov 7 2012, 08:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->~50 kills with no or nearly no deaths over multiple rounds, and without bothering to set himself up in any way. His aim suddenly became very poor, too, when some accused him of cheating. And then he died a few times, only to resume killing without missing again after a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It should be stated that kill counts of 50+ with under 10 deaths at the end of the round aren't out the realm of possibility. Last night I went 58/6. Frustrating because I could kill every Onos I came across and we still lost. Might have had something to do with the bottom 4 players being under 10 kills and over 30 deaths each. Yeesh.
Comments
I really hope the lua engine is a little more protected than you seem to imply.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you can't change serverside stuff without running your own server. If consistency checks are off you could build standard hacks though, like aimbots or wallhacks.
And yes, there are other ways to build hacks, but since there's no DLLs to hook into for gameplay code, your options are fairly limited. you might be able to build a packet sniffer that analyzes the server information sent to your client and displays it in another program, effectively giving you more information than the normal client will display. but the options are basically changing Lua, which is prevented by consistency checking, or creating an entirely separate program that runs in conjunction and does something like reads the screen and intercepts inputs or intercepts network information. It's much more difficult to do, and impossible to catch. The network intercept method can be prevented, however, by encoding or encrypting the packets. Not sure if this is done currently or not. and building something that reads your screen and intercepts input devices is hella hard and would be very slow and likely have terrible results.
There is a DLL you can mess with and doing so disables consistency checks. Then you can easily code hacks in LUA.
I whine more about this topic <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=122284" target="_blank">here</a>. Check out my multiple posts there. I mention the imbalances caused by cheats (Aliens become mostly useless) and how more "non-cheaters" may start using cheats because of the lack of a significant punishment.
I seriously doubt that would happen. If the game became over-run with cheaters most people would probably just quit playing and not resort to cheating themselves.
I've seen it happen in other games. I don't just mean people resorting to cheats only after the game is overrun, I mean people who normally don't cheat using cheats anyway because "why not", "just for fun", "just gonna try them until they add an anti-cheat". Some people may use small cheats like fullbright and convince themselves it's not giving them that much of an advantage so "it's not really cheating". They having nothing to lose (there's no anti-cheat punishment).
Take a look at APB:R - any little exploit people can get away with - they sure try. like using the mouse wheel to fire a non-automatic weapon...
Talking about the previous quotes I had posted , some of those players simply don't seem to play games without cheats.. talking about they are waiting for a cheat so they can buy ns2 and play...
Its sad, people just can't enjoy a game unless they are doing awesome, and they resort to cheats to make them good....
Those who have an excuse for everything have something to hide.
Just waiting on first person spectate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2008972:date=Nov 3 2012, 08:53 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 3 2012, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008972"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, the thing we need most is FPerson spectator... :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2009029:date=Nov 3 2012, 09:36 PM:name=Starkwind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Starkwind @ Nov 3 2012, 09:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just wish there was a first person spectator... Half of these topics would go away... why has this not been added in?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keep in mind FP spec mode may not always show what you're thinking it does. For example:
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=TF2 Wiki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TF2 Wiki)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spectators do not have lag compensation. If you are spectating someone in first person, you are not seeing exactly what they are seeing. This is especially noticeable with high-latency Snipers, where you should expect to see unusual shots that may appear to miss or jerk about from your perspective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Lag_compensation" target="_blank">Source</a>
<a href="http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Lag_compensation" target="_blank">Source</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its still better than nothing... :p
<!--quoteo(post=2009672:date=Nov 4 2012, 03:25 PM:name=Sampson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sampson @ Nov 4 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->fana you need to chill out. you get away with a lot of ######ish comments on the forums.... you're the smartest person on the interwebs. congrats dawg<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lolz because accusing PT's of hacking isnt "######ish".... xD
IRL?
Lolz because accusing PT's of hacking isnt "######ish".... xD<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is saying a PTer cheating is worse than a regular player cheating? I was just trying to say it's out there. They don't need to always cheat. I'm not giving out names or giving exact accusations for a reason. And I didn't accuse every PTer of doing it?
With all the new players running around, it is super easy for the experienced players to rack up impressive scores.
I myself, together with my mates, can easily get good scores on the public servers, and I'm sure that people who've played the beta for more than a few minutes can too.
I have been accused of cheating on several occasions since release, due to sick K/DR:s, but my mates that I play with can testify I'm not, in fact, cheating. I'm merely just better than the ones I'm playing against.
I'm not trying to boast my own skill, I'm merely trying to highlight the fact that inexperienced players have a hard time with this game right now, and hopefully they'll learn instead of crying "wolf" everytime they get killed.
Until there's proper proof that someone IS cheating, there's a good chance that the so called "cheater" is just really good.
However: I am NOT saying that cheating isn't a problem in any online game, and it's an issue that needs to be addressed, for sure. But until we have actual, infallible proof that someone is cheating, there is very little to be done in this regard. Serverside consistency checks and aware admins go a long way to sniff out any potential hackers.
Here's to hoping that NS2 wont become a cheaters' paradise, and that we all can enjoy the game on somewhat even footing.
Besides, isn't NS2 the "360 trickshot" community of PC Gaming? Its the reason why I F4 whenever i see a pre-2008 forum member join a match.
Besides, isn't NS2 the "360 trickshot" community of PC Gaming? Its the reason why I F4 whenever i see a pre-2008 forum member join a match.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
server admins with first person spectate? server-side demos? I don't deny that experienced server admins are the way to go, but they have zero tools to help them catch cheaters. unless someone is blatantly wallhacking or aimbotting, it's impossible to tell currently.
~50 kills with no or nearly no deaths over multiple rounds, and without bothering to set himself up in any way. His aim suddenly became very poor, too, when some accused him of cheating. And then he died a few times, only to resume killing without missing again after a while.
Can we get tempban voting or some other measures on the servers...?
You cant just go on good faith and such.
Its hard to judge if people are using wallhacks, because there are certain abilities that makes enemies viewable through walls like that skult spit thingy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think a small game called Counter Strike would like to have a word with you. Or have people already forgotten about lambert, spike models and dozens of different anti-cheat solutions, that in the worst case banned people for just using the wrong kinds of drivers for their graphics card?
And what did it help? It didn't do a damn thing, except for making the experience a complicated mess for legit users as they had to make sure their anti-cheat had been up to date, they had the right one running and it's not conflicting with anything else.
The sad reality is: There will always be cheating no matter what you do, if you increase the pressure and effort into preventing cheats you just start an race you only gonna lose. There will always be private and paid-for hacks that slip the net. So the easiest and best thing to do is to just live with it. A smart/good cheater is basically impossible to tell from a legit/good player so you can just assume he's simple a godlike good player and be done with it. But being paranoid about this only serves as excuses for people not to improve their own game "Oh he's obviously cheating, it's not my fault that i suck!"
And from my experience adding first person spectate does not help at all, usually it's making cheating accusations even worse. Had tons of times where people spectated me in games and ended up accusing me of cheating because "you snap to targets!!1" (What am i supposed to do? Move my mouse at a snails pace?).
You want a legit competitive scene? You gotta do LAN tournaments and even that is not a sure way to prevent cheating as there have been cases of people cheating during such events in hidden ways. But imho UWE has already enough on their plater do deal with before they can get into arms races with hackers.
And what did it help? It didn't do a damn thing, except for making the experience a complicated mess for legit users as they had to make sure their anti-cheat had been up to date, they had the right one running and it's not conflicting with anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like Miranda Lambert and all but I really don't think she is interested in Ns2, let alone knows anything about Anti-cheating.
I kind of like the Idea of the game being a "program nazi" and forcing you to disable everything that isn't windows, anti-virus and game based. Any external program that isn't required by windows or the game to run, gets prompted to be turned off before the game loads.
All that is left after that point is file editing and with consistency checks, that can be controlled.
Your idea of an secure environment will simply never work on the PC platform (Easiest workround for that: Disguise your hack as part of an integral Windows service or an fake AV), if you really want to play in such an environment there are already platforms that accomplish this, they are called consoles (And guess what.. even those have cheating problems)
But the open nature of PC's comes with it's advantages and disadvantages. You can't have the advantages without having the disadvantages. People should realize that there is no such thing as an 100% secure digital environment, whatever gets engineered can be counter-engineered to find it's flaws. There is a reason VISA, Google, Banks and even the Pentagon got and get regularly hacked, it's not "sloppy security measures" it's the fact that there is no ultimate security and never will be.
~50 kills with no or nearly no deaths over multiple rounds, and without bothering to set himself up in any way. His aim suddenly became very poor, too, when some accused him of cheating. And then he died a few times, only to resume killing without missing again after a while.
Can we get tempban voting or some other measures on the servers...?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Out of curiosity, was this on a combat server?
When it comes to competitions, LAN proves everything.
When comes to the online scene, eventually they will be caught and burned alive.
Public server? I leave. But yet to encounter anything but good players in NS2.
No worries, be happy.
Your idea of an secure environment will simply never work on the PC platform (Easiest workround for that: Disguise your hack as part of an integral Windows service or an fake AV), if you really want to play in such an environment there are already platforms that accomplish this, they are called consoles (And guess what.. even those have cheating problems)
But the open nature of PC's comes with it's advantages and disadvantages. You can't have the advantages without having the disadvantages. People should realize that there is no such thing as an 100% secure digital environment, whatever gets engineered can be counter-engineered to find it's flaws. There is a reason VISA, Google, Banks and even the Pentagon got and get regularly hacked, it's not "sloppy security measures" it's the fact that there is no ultimate security and never will be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so lets say fu** it then and not worry about controlling cheaters? Sounds good!
<!--quoteo(post=2009187:date=Nov 4 2012, 05:56 AM:name=Schleppy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schleppy @ Nov 4 2012, 05:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How does one go about finding whether consistency checks are on on a server? Can't check via the browser and I am unaware of any console command that allows a client to see whether they are on or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You will clearly see in the console when you load into the server if consistency checking is on. It will post a lot of messages like:
Hashed 100 .lua files...
Hashed 50 .material files...
and so on. From what I've seen less than 10% of all servers enforce consistency checking.
I used to be an 'anti-hacker' admin for a league a while ago, and I guarantee that public servers are where hackers let their guard down. Once demo recording makes it in it only takes one member to record/notice.
I do also want vac or some other anticheat system like punkbuster or perhaps a uwe creation, But something to discourage the cheating.
The Config checks are also handy as well as some other minor things like memory checks on the servers to prevent simple memory editing tools like Cheat engine.
Right now the game is completely open to all forms of cheating, and because of the open lua design of the game tools to create those cheats have already been provided.
When the game is not even feature complete yet, yes that's the best approach for now, as UWE only has limited resources/manpower and even with unlimited resources it's an endless struggle you can never ultimately win.
And like i already described before: There is no way to discern between a smart cheater who's also a good player and a very good player without cheats.
As long as the cheater does not break game logic in an very obvious way (Running around with invul mode, no-reload, no-clip, speedhacks or similar) he is limited in what he can do to things anybody could do with the right situational awareness and quick reactions.
As such, the majority of cheating accusations usually boil down to sore losers and new players trying to shift the blame to somebody else because they can't stand losing or accepting that some people are simply better/more experienced at the game.
Does cheating exist? Sure.. but as long as there is no obvious breaking of game logic i consider playing against them a challenge and not an obstacle as there is never a 100% sure way to proof their cheating.
It was neither one with the "combat" mod (haven't played it yet) nor one with "'combat" in the server's name.
<!--quoteo(post=2014675:date=Nov 8 2012, 01:04 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Nov 8 2012, 01:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And like i already described before: There is no way to discern between a smart cheater who's also a good player and a very good player without cheats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, and?
It's reasonable enough for an absolute majority with 2/5 or so of the game's total votes involved to decide that they don't want to play with someone who clearly appears to be a cheater or otherwise unfair to *them*. 2-3h tempban from that server would be fine, really, and easy to implement.
At *worst*, the very good players get kicked out of games with newbies they totally dominated. So what? If the majority doesn't want to play with them, they shouldn't have to. Usually, it's just going to get used against cheaters and griefers, though.
Do you have years of server admining under your belt? I assume not because you wouldn't make that statement. My judgment was never flawless but more often than not, a cheater has a tell. One of the CS gungame servers I adminned had a regular that received daily cheat accusations simply because he was just that much better than even the good players. And honestly, I used him as my benchmark for the tough calls.
---
That said, there has been only one player I've been curious about so far in NS2, other than the asshats scripting their pistols to fire the clip in <1 second. (The one guy I distrusted was rather impressive because every time he entered a room someone was hiding in, he would freeze 2 steps in, eyes to the ground...and then lock on without fail without actually looking around. Looked an awful lot like the early, early toggle aimbots that would lag the ###### out of the user when they turned it on.)
<!--quoteo(post=2013925:date=Nov 7 2012, 08:08 AM:name=Radtoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Radtoo @ Nov 7 2012, 08:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->~50 kills with no or nearly no deaths over multiple rounds, and without bothering to set himself up in any way. His aim suddenly became very poor, too, when some accused him of cheating. And then he died a few times, only to resume killing without missing again after a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It should be stated that kill counts of 50+ with under 10 deaths at the end of the round aren't out the realm of possibility. Last night I went 58/6. Frustrating because I could kill every Onos I came across and we still lost. Might have had something to do with the bottom 4 players being under 10 kills and over 30 deaths each. Yeesh.