NS1 to NS2, a reduction in strategy?
Matt4
Join Date: 2010-11-22 Member: 75199Members
Join Date: 2010-11-22 Member: 75199Members
First, let me point out I am super excited by NS2, I DO find the current game play fun, and fairly well balanced, and want to congratulate the devs on their hard earned success, even though I remember when I bought the collectors edition or w/e for $40 and there was a picture of them throwing money in the air haha.
That said there is certainly a different feel to NS2 vs 1, and I am having trouble figuring out how I feel about it. This isn't so much of a gripe thread as a someone tell me what I'm missing thread. I also fully admit I don't know every detail of NS2 yet, although I have entirely too many hours logged in NS1 (Bad clan server anyone?)
In general I find a large narrowing down of game play options, especially from a strategy point of view. Let me work by example. Ill start with 2 map control elements.
1)So the very first thing I noticed was that now there more hive locations. Thought this was ballin, since one of the big killers of game in NS1 was a 2 hive lock down (I should reference right now this whole post is about organized pub play, not comp stuff) and that more hives for a harder to accomplish marine entrenchment and a greater scale of alien power would be great (as opposed to all of a sudden xenocide). Then I learned that now the marines also want more hives? It sounds like a reasonable comment, but it makes some very key differences. All of a sudden for the first time, the teams want the same locations. This is the start of the narrowing down strategy's. In NS1, the commander had to decide if it was worth it to lock down a hive; did he/she have the resources, the time, the phase tech? Could you better use the team momentum just to press on? While that question kind of remains, there is now a massive incentive to hold the area. A very dynamic element has just been taken out of the game! Before the death of a hive or base was a big deal, and while it still is, based on this principal, base trading seems a lot more common. But not in a good way. Its just more time shooting/chomping buildings and re setting up. It doesn't really advance the game. It also makes secret hiving for example impossible since both teams are ALWAYS interested in the same stuff.
2)In NS1 map control was largely decide by who had what resource towers, they were a focal point. Now there is this second game mechanic that feels very forced. The power/creep idea. When I first saw this stuff back in early development it sounded cool, and still is, but not when it so overtly overlaps with the RT map control. I thought the creep/power would give fighting advantages to people in an area; marines shooting better in the light, aliens run faster on creep for example (yes a crude example) while the resources remained with the RTs. Now it seems that RTs are second priority. One fast fix to this for me would be to make RTs run without creep/power. It really makes the map more linear I find, once again narrowing down tactics. No more secret bases or surprise phase gates. Just good old trench warfare it feels like sometimes until one team gets enough guns/teeth to knock the other one back.
Now to marine/alien abilities and upgrades.
Marines)The lmg has gone from early game weapon to entire game weapon. Shot guns are still awesome, no one is denying that. But they don't apply to everyone's play style and then they just use the same gun all game. Making the LMG scale less amazingly and adding an LMG that when fully upgrades would only be a little better than the current t3 lmg i think would add a lot more strategy to when the marines buy guns and what not. I know there is other threads on this so I won't dig too hard into details other than to say the weapons for the marines feel very limited with exos representing godliness. Having the exos just use whatever gun (maybe even have the option of ONLY the exos buying the mini-gun separately) and making them cheaper would add much more scale to the game, instead of a nothing to everything scenario like it feels now. With a greater scale of options, you bet people will find more interesting ways to use them.
Aliens)First: gorges suck, gorge game play isn't fun, and they have a hard time making an impact on the game. Everyone knows this so I won't even touch on it. The seemingly too well scaling lmg has changed the role of the fade from "force them to spend res to deal with me" to "stall until someone gets an onos". I still really like playing the fade and I do well (or I think I do anyway lol) but its another example of less things able to happen. I'm not fully down with the alien chamber upgrades yet and how they come to pass. But it seems like they need to be researched by the comm? If that's the case it definitely takes away from the alien game play. I noticed once I could get celerity but not adren, so now the comm is making those choices for me. I don't mind him/her picking the chamber type, but that definitely bottlenecks game play. On a side note, I actually really like alien vision, but that's just me. It does make me sad I don't get the feeling of being in the dark with it on though (when the lights are off) since it all looks the same. I don't feel like I'm hunting.
Finally, the feel and mood of the team and speed of game play seem much different.
-This might be just me being not good at NS2 vs NS1 yet, but I feel the team needs me less. I have less of an idea what the team goals are and whats going on. With people able to do things for themselves like buy guns, they are less at the power of the comm. This may all be in my head, but it feels more like pub CS than NS sometimes.
-Its fast and small. Does everything feel smaller to you guys? The big rooms don't seem as big. I cant tell if I'm larger or just faster than I was in NS1. Especially as aliens, in NS1 there was some (not a ton) sneaking around and waiting. Now it just feels gogogo all the time, and that hiding is a lot harder since the spaces are so much more... well defined, limited, smaller? Not sure. Just get this feeling a lot. This also applies to the marine side of things when with a jet pack. Maybe the roof is just lower 0.0
To summarize in one line:
Feels like rush to exo/onos while getting just enough hives and lock down everything as best you can-if attacked base trade.
So please, tell me what is new and awesome in the game to make up for so much (I think) lost! I wanna know so I can get to enjoying it to its fullest!
EDIT: Forgot to mention, not getting res for killing things just takes out some satisfaction and should go back into the game in some way, especially for aliens. Obviously a huge balance thing though.
To end on a good note, heres some stuff I love:
The lerk gas is awesome. Love how you can't see through it.
Onos head armour, love it.
Pistol remains a sniping machine.
Mobile arty (although why cant we have both types?)
Alien flashlight is cool.
Fade smoke effect and reduce target area is very fun.
Double mini gun exos are so powerful, but can be killed by a couple skulks with no support. Love it.
That said there is certainly a different feel to NS2 vs 1, and I am having trouble figuring out how I feel about it. This isn't so much of a gripe thread as a someone tell me what I'm missing thread. I also fully admit I don't know every detail of NS2 yet, although I have entirely too many hours logged in NS1 (Bad clan server anyone?)
In general I find a large narrowing down of game play options, especially from a strategy point of view. Let me work by example. Ill start with 2 map control elements.
1)So the very first thing I noticed was that now there more hive locations. Thought this was ballin, since one of the big killers of game in NS1 was a 2 hive lock down (I should reference right now this whole post is about organized pub play, not comp stuff) and that more hives for a harder to accomplish marine entrenchment and a greater scale of alien power would be great (as opposed to all of a sudden xenocide). Then I learned that now the marines also want more hives? It sounds like a reasonable comment, but it makes some very key differences. All of a sudden for the first time, the teams want the same locations. This is the start of the narrowing down strategy's. In NS1, the commander had to decide if it was worth it to lock down a hive; did he/she have the resources, the time, the phase tech? Could you better use the team momentum just to press on? While that question kind of remains, there is now a massive incentive to hold the area. A very dynamic element has just been taken out of the game! Before the death of a hive or base was a big deal, and while it still is, based on this principal, base trading seems a lot more common. But not in a good way. Its just more time shooting/chomping buildings and re setting up. It doesn't really advance the game. It also makes secret hiving for example impossible since both teams are ALWAYS interested in the same stuff.
2)In NS1 map control was largely decide by who had what resource towers, they were a focal point. Now there is this second game mechanic that feels very forced. The power/creep idea. When I first saw this stuff back in early development it sounded cool, and still is, but not when it so overtly overlaps with the RT map control. I thought the creep/power would give fighting advantages to people in an area; marines shooting better in the light, aliens run faster on creep for example (yes a crude example) while the resources remained with the RTs. Now it seems that RTs are second priority. One fast fix to this for me would be to make RTs run without creep/power. It really makes the map more linear I find, once again narrowing down tactics. No more secret bases or surprise phase gates. Just good old trench warfare it feels like sometimes until one team gets enough guns/teeth to knock the other one back.
Now to marine/alien abilities and upgrades.
Marines)The lmg has gone from early game weapon to entire game weapon. Shot guns are still awesome, no one is denying that. But they don't apply to everyone's play style and then they just use the same gun all game. Making the LMG scale less amazingly and adding an LMG that when fully upgrades would only be a little better than the current t3 lmg i think would add a lot more strategy to when the marines buy guns and what not. I know there is other threads on this so I won't dig too hard into details other than to say the weapons for the marines feel very limited with exos representing godliness. Having the exos just use whatever gun (maybe even have the option of ONLY the exos buying the mini-gun separately) and making them cheaper would add much more scale to the game, instead of a nothing to everything scenario like it feels now. With a greater scale of options, you bet people will find more interesting ways to use them.
Aliens)First: gorges suck, gorge game play isn't fun, and they have a hard time making an impact on the game. Everyone knows this so I won't even touch on it. The seemingly too well scaling lmg has changed the role of the fade from "force them to spend res to deal with me" to "stall until someone gets an onos". I still really like playing the fade and I do well (or I think I do anyway lol) but its another example of less things able to happen. I'm not fully down with the alien chamber upgrades yet and how they come to pass. But it seems like they need to be researched by the comm? If that's the case it definitely takes away from the alien game play. I noticed once I could get celerity but not adren, so now the comm is making those choices for me. I don't mind him/her picking the chamber type, but that definitely bottlenecks game play. On a side note, I actually really like alien vision, but that's just me. It does make me sad I don't get the feeling of being in the dark with it on though (when the lights are off) since it all looks the same. I don't feel like I'm hunting.
Finally, the feel and mood of the team and speed of game play seem much different.
-This might be just me being not good at NS2 vs NS1 yet, but I feel the team needs me less. I have less of an idea what the team goals are and whats going on. With people able to do things for themselves like buy guns, they are less at the power of the comm. This may all be in my head, but it feels more like pub CS than NS sometimes.
-Its fast and small. Does everything feel smaller to you guys? The big rooms don't seem as big. I cant tell if I'm larger or just faster than I was in NS1. Especially as aliens, in NS1 there was some (not a ton) sneaking around and waiting. Now it just feels gogogo all the time, and that hiding is a lot harder since the spaces are so much more... well defined, limited, smaller? Not sure. Just get this feeling a lot. This also applies to the marine side of things when with a jet pack. Maybe the roof is just lower 0.0
To summarize in one line:
Feels like rush to exo/onos while getting just enough hives and lock down everything as best you can-if attacked base trade.
So please, tell me what is new and awesome in the game to make up for so much (I think) lost! I wanna know so I can get to enjoying it to its fullest!
EDIT: Forgot to mention, not getting res for killing things just takes out some satisfaction and should go back into the game in some way, especially for aliens. Obviously a huge balance thing though.
To end on a good note, heres some stuff I love:
The lerk gas is awesome. Love how you can't see through it.
Onos head armour, love it.
Pistol remains a sniping machine.
Mobile arty (although why cant we have both types?)
Alien flashlight is cool.
Fade smoke effect and reduce target area is very fun.
Double mini gun exos are so powerful, but can be killed by a couple skulks with no support. Love it.
Comments
when a marine bunny hops on the spot, i simply can't seem to hit him with spit... ever. even if i stand still and hold left mouse with crosshair dead centre of the marine's chest.
it's also next to impossible for me to hit a moving marine, even if you hold down left mouse and lead shots where you'd expect them to hit. i've played projectile classes in many other online games and never experienced such erratic collision detection.
i'd really like the projectile to be more clearly visible, i think it would work wonders - and double check the collision of it... because being able to aim spit like you can aim rockets in tf2 would go a long way to making gorge a good unit.
But on the other hand with more strategic possibilities there is more room for frustrating failure and I can see why they tweaked the system in the manner they did since this is a commercial product now. So I am just waiting for the NS: Classic modification and having fun chewing on Exos until then.
I disagree about the lack of sneaky phase gates. You can still sneak them, there are just less viable sneaky places because of infestation. Ball court is one good example of a sneaky place. You can also put one in the back of subsector (veil) usually. Often can put one in the side of cargo. If they remove the commanders being able to hear noises the other side is making it would be even easier.
Doesn't add up really. . .
I've seen many posts about NS1 strats and the poster usually talks about a single strat that Marines would do while Aliens had I think 2 options to them?
NS:2 definitely has at least 2 earlygame strats for marines with 3 options for lategame while aliens have about 5 going for them that persist for the duration of the game
How do you figure it's faster paced when everything moves slower, there's no bhop, skulks leap about as far as marines can jump in this
NS2 is a reduction in everything, idk how it's called a sequel it's more like NS 0.5
Too much of the game is now spent with aliens picking at RTs and marines sprinting back and forth to counter. This was countered by gorges and electrifying in NS1, and gave NS1 games clearer front lines on which combat was often focused.
Let me be clear: Running back and forth across a map repairing or rebuilding structures <b>IS NOT ENTERTAINING</b>. Sentry guns are too weak and hydras are a complete joke. Something has to be done to give map control over to automation/commanders so grunts on either team can focus on attacking EACH OTHER.
I both agree and disagree with this. Sentry guns aren't really weak. A set of three generally can take down the most used alien, the skulk with ease. While everything else might take a little longer, by itself its not bad.
The problem however is that sentries are restricted to one "room" per battery. I'd honestly like to know what the distance for rooms is, since it seems more like one battery to a power node than anything due to how far apart they have to be placed. And thats kind of the problem. There are too many entrances to any spot, and its far too easy to bypass sentries right now. This means they kind of fail at protecting any area beyond maybe one hallway. And only until the other team just simply flanks it to take it out.
Hydras on the other hand are even more worthless. They're restricted to only three per player, they're low damage unless placed in groups, and have a somewhat pitiful range. Not to mention their bright color makes them very easy to spot and shoot down.
And while you could use whips, they're pretty much worthless for defense unless you're using a shade somewhere near by. And even then it barely works.
NS2 is actually really slow compared to ns1. Also speed has nothing to do how much strategy game has to offer.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121925&hl=statikg" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...&hl=statikg</a>
Note: turrets have been buffed substantially since I wrote that
There is <b>always</b> a blind spot in which a single skulk can either take down 1 SG (which have extremely low health already) and then the battery or the battery straight away (which ALSO has extremely low health). If this isn't actually the case, it certainly seems like it is, and commanders shouldn't have to be pulling out a protractor to make sure their SGs aren't going to be killed by a lone skulk.
Nope.
Yet this would just make a glorified AvP deathmatch of the sort, I haven't played NS1 and played only since release, but it looks to me like the point of the game is to take an RTS unit's role, which is exactly what you do when building, scouting and defending key locations.
Also, sentries can be arranged in a circle around the battery, facing it, which makes them lethal to a group of less than 3 skulks.
Aliens have whips and shades, which can hold marines for a surprising amount of time.
RTSs have dedicated builder units. A single marine heading to Skylights because some lone skulk came out and took it down has to spend, what, at least a minute standing there holding "f" rebuilding the power/extractor (the same amount of time the skulk sat there biting). There should be a point later in games where this isn't repeatedly happening.
no mc hive in.
exos and onos too dominating.
no free marine base relocation.
game goes too fast: no mid game. i.e. no place for fades and intermediate weapons
i would say this contributes to 95% of the reduction.
Using a welder, you can rebuild a power node in much less time than it takes to hold down 'Use' on it.
Needing people to go around reclaiming RTs or saving RTs happened in NS1 as well. So what did you want, electrified RTs like from NS1 where it made it impossible for skulks to bite an RT down without dying?
No ninja PGs? Using a welder, you can build a power node very quickly (esp. with 2 or more marines with you). Kill a cyst (about the only warning that the alien comm gets), wait for infestation to clear out a tiny bit, then power build a PG. It still isn't quite the same as ninja PGs right in the hive itself due to the need to build a power node and clear out infestation, but it can still be done.
Because biting and rebuilding extractors never happened in NS1.
If conflict is always occuring, every minute of the game, then focus is moved entirely to combat proficiency. This means that less time and effort is devoted to thinking strategically. Not none, but less. Its unavoidable. Look at a game like starcraft 2. Definitely a good RTS, definitely strategy involved, but when being good requires such high APM, where do you think the true skill lies? Being strategical, or being fast?
If conflict is always occuring, every minute of the game, then focus is moved entirely to combat proficiency. This means that less time and effort is devoted to thinking strategically. Not none, but less. Its unavoidable. Look at a game like starcraft 2. Definitely a good RTS, definitely strategy involved, but when being good requires such high APM, where do you think the true skill lies? Being strategical, or being fast?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OP writer again.
I think this post has a lot to do with the pacing issues I was feeling. Someone else (sorry for not quoting) also really pointed out the lack of a middle game which I also agree with. The sad part is these portions of the game were often the most intense and interesting and seem to have been dropped for increased mindless, less important shooting. Shooting is still fun tho.
Maybe 1 in every 10 games we had an onos, or a lerk.
Maybe 1 in every 10 games we had an onos, or a lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was a severe problem with the game, in my opinion. Remember in the beginning when Onos were third hive only? You basically never saw them, they were a myth to many players. Having 20% of a teams lifeforms almost never appear makes for wasted game resources and boring play. I think the ubiquity of the lifeforms at the moment is good, but maybe they all just need to be made equally viable.
I think that if there is a problem with the Onos, then it should be fairly easy to address. First of all I think we all agree that the late game Onos is perfect, and needs to change as little as possible. We can also probably agree that if there is a problem, its with the 5-6 minute Onos rush. So what if we increased the importance of upgrades to the Onos? The Onos' HP could be decreased by say, 15%, but the benefit from carapace could be increased to the point where it perfectly makes up for the defecit. Similarly, the Onos could be made slower by 10% or so, but increase the benefit of celerity, and maybe improve charge a little to make adrenaline equally attractive. This way Onos rush will still be viable, but the team will need to be mindful that without upgrades, the Onos is quite weak. Late game combat should be entirely unchanged, though the effectiveness of 1 hive aliens will be reduced even more, which may pose a problem.