What happened to the fade?
hate
Join Date: 2011-07-19 Member: 111206Members
Join Date: 2011-07-19 Member: 111206Members
<div class="IPBDescription">(and since when is 10 minutes into a match considered late game?)</div>When I bought this game a little over a year ago, the Fade was it's main selling point. I honestly thought that I'd never play the marines at all and spend all my time as an alien commander, or playing Fade. He was strong back then, and rightfully so. He was at the top of the alien pyramid, the Onos had yet to be revealed. He was like an assassin, you could never be too careful once fades had hit the field. They were terrifying. You could rely on the fear they caused to help turn the tides of the game.
I took a break from the game because my computer just couldn't run it well enough, and I got involved in the T:A comp scene (lol) for awhile. When that game died, my group of friends and I moved on to different games, and I slowly convinced more and more of them to buy this game. By the time of release, we'd bought enough pre-orders and gotten enough copies to essentially give them away to whoever else didn't have the game yet, even though we never played it much. I'd convinced them all slowly, one at a time so we'd play for awhile then get frustrated with the bugs and low frame rate, but had all anxiously been awaiting the release. So when that day finally came around, I booted up the game and was absolutely AMAZED at the improvements. I went from getting ~20fps on the worst graphics settings, to getting a respectable 40fps with the graphics on the highest settings. The marine game-play which had previously not interested me at all was now a lot of fun, and the aliens weren't roflstomping them into the ground anymore.
Aliens were still my main interest, so naturally that's what I tried first. After being so thoroughly impressed with the FPS improvements and dynamic infestation, I earned enough res to buy a fade and immediately evolved. I grabbed adrenaline and regeneration, because logically the deeper stamina pool and the ability to regen health should keep me in the battle much longer than a few extra points of armor. I'm a FADE, my job is to jump in and out of combat, picking marines off one by-one as quickly as possible, and preferably from behind. I blink behind two marines with shotguns, and before i can even get a second swipe off they've killed me. I chalk it up to me being rusty and them having the first tier of weapon upgrades unlocked. I save up enough res for another fade and try again with carapace, only to see it basically makes no difference.
It's now been a week since release, and I've come to a terrifying realization. The only way to win the game as Aliens is early Onos/Onos spam, and by early we're talking less than 10 minutes. Fades are nigh-extinct. I've been playing more and more Marines, and finding fewer and fewer friends interested to play with me. We had talked about setting up a server and fielding a competitive team for this game, but they've basically lost interest due to the complete lack of viable strategies in this real-time strategy/FPS hybrid. I'm talking upwards of 10 (probably close to 20) people that are in our TS3 server that have the game, and I can AT MOST find 2 people to play with, and that's an increasingly rare occurrence.
TL;DR: Make Fades more Viable, and do something about the early Onos. Late game tech that early in the game doesn't even make any sense.
I took a break from the game because my computer just couldn't run it well enough, and I got involved in the T:A comp scene (lol) for awhile. When that game died, my group of friends and I moved on to different games, and I slowly convinced more and more of them to buy this game. By the time of release, we'd bought enough pre-orders and gotten enough copies to essentially give them away to whoever else didn't have the game yet, even though we never played it much. I'd convinced them all slowly, one at a time so we'd play for awhile then get frustrated with the bugs and low frame rate, but had all anxiously been awaiting the release. So when that day finally came around, I booted up the game and was absolutely AMAZED at the improvements. I went from getting ~20fps on the worst graphics settings, to getting a respectable 40fps with the graphics on the highest settings. The marine game-play which had previously not interested me at all was now a lot of fun, and the aliens weren't roflstomping them into the ground anymore.
Aliens were still my main interest, so naturally that's what I tried first. After being so thoroughly impressed with the FPS improvements and dynamic infestation, I earned enough res to buy a fade and immediately evolved. I grabbed adrenaline and regeneration, because logically the deeper stamina pool and the ability to regen health should keep me in the battle much longer than a few extra points of armor. I'm a FADE, my job is to jump in and out of combat, picking marines off one by-one as quickly as possible, and preferably from behind. I blink behind two marines with shotguns, and before i can even get a second swipe off they've killed me. I chalk it up to me being rusty and them having the first tier of weapon upgrades unlocked. I save up enough res for another fade and try again with carapace, only to see it basically makes no difference.
It's now been a week since release, and I've come to a terrifying realization. The only way to win the game as Aliens is early Onos/Onos spam, and by early we're talking less than 10 minutes. Fades are nigh-extinct. I've been playing more and more Marines, and finding fewer and fewer friends interested to play with me. We had talked about setting up a server and fielding a competitive team for this game, but they've basically lost interest due to the complete lack of viable strategies in this real-time strategy/FPS hybrid. I'm talking upwards of 10 (probably close to 20) people that are in our TS3 server that have the game, and I can AT MOST find 2 people to play with, and that's an increasingly rare occurrence.
TL;DR: Make Fades more Viable, and do something about the early Onos. Late game tech that early in the game doesn't even make any sense.
Comments
UKE rightfully has to be careful about <b>what</b> exactly they do to balance such things and make the Fade more fun, especially when the rest of the game seems somewhat balanced, as difficult as that is. I think the most helpful thing someone could do at this point is make some mods with alternate Fade gameplay styles that make him fun, a threat to the marines, but still very counter-able.
Lua scripting for the win!
Only reason aliens win games currently is because they can spam onos eggs. Commanders doing anything else is foolhearty.
Only reason aliens win games currently is because they can spam onos eggs. Commanders doing anything else is foolhearty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
told not to engage the enemy late game (10 minutes onward) ??? what a ridiculous statement. 30% more damage and ~120 more hp (2 extra hits) is obviously more difficult, but without those upgrades the marines would all get ripped to shreds effortlessly by a team of 5 fades... onos would be obsolete.
i will say that fade is VERY difficult to play, but the survivability through MOBILITY (especially the ability to escape) makes them a more direct version of the lerk, and tbh there is simply no point in trying to argue that lerk is ineffective.
i'm not sure whether fade is in the right place with overuse of onos egg right now, but when talking about skulk, lerk and fade balance you simply can't ignore their immense speed as a factor. just because 'once upon a time' you got pwnd because you were careless, outplayed, slow or unlucky does not mean the unit is broken.
if taking into account human limitations, a 'perfectly' played skulk, lerk and fade should very rarely die, because you ALWAYS have the ability to run away (and regen if traited). marines can only run away from gorge (lol) and onos (jetpack or climb out of reach). their aim will most certainly not be perfect unless you do something predictable, which is what you call getting outplayed.
Only reason aliens win games currently is because they can spam onos eggs. Commanders doing anything else is foolhearty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulk's not broken, fade is also ok... a bit on the weak side, but the real issue is it's fairly overtaken by the brutally powerful onos right now.
Fade isn't as great a combat unit as it was in NS1, but that's kind of sensible since the onos is now ABSURDLY powerful. Fade makes for an exceptional direct harassment unit. The real question is weather you really need fades for harassment when skulks are so good at it already?
Please just give up on your one man escapade to make people believe fade isn't broken.
We all know it is and all you serve to do is delay it getting fixed.
We all know it is and all you serve to do is delay it getting fixed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If Charlie comes and asks me "do you really think I shouldn't buff the fade right now?" I'm not going to tell him "no, it's perfectly fine"... But I think you can have fun with the current fade, and I don't think it's completely not worth even trying, especially when marines get jetpacks. At least in pubs anyways. I don't want to tell competitive players how to play right now.
There's a whole bunch of things interacting. The fades hive 3 ability being utterly worthless, the power of shotguns, mines, and grenade launchers against non-onos lifeforms, the skulks fairly big strength against structures, the very high power of onos in the current build, the fact that there is no real hard counter to jetpacks, the design of the maps (with holes for fades to fall in for worldspawn deaths), the fact that marine bases are all basically attached to an artosis pylon (which makes an earlier game harassment unit more powerful).
There is a way to play fade where it's useful and cost effective. It's not the same way you used to play fade in NS1. It's also not very easy, and I can easily imagine competitive players being able to close the gaps that fades are currently able to exploit on a razors edge of success vs failure.
There's a lot of things I consider broken about the game right now, there are also a lot of potential ways to fix them. Fixing any one thing changes most of the game, especially the fade. I just don't like the idea that giving the fade an extra 50 health and 50 armor fixes the game in a vacume, or even that it's definitely a move in the right direction. The fade being weak is not one of the cornerstone problems in NS2. In that regard, the fade is not broken, it's a bothersome factor in a broken game.
The Fade definitely needs some changes, I just want to encourage people to look at the big picture more. In the end of the day the fade isn't "broken" if it doesn't play like the NS1 fade, it's broken if it has nothing useful to do in the game. Similar to how the onos was broken in NS1. I'd argue the NS2 fade is closer to right than the NS1 onos was.
There's a whole bunch of things interacting. The fades hive 3 ability being utterly worthless, the power of shotguns, mines, and grenade launchers against non-onos lifeforms, the skulks fairly big strength against structures, the very high power of onos in the current build, the fact that there is no real hard counter to jetpacks, the design of the maps (with holes for fades to fall in for worldspawn deaths), the fact that marine bases are all basically attached to an artosis pylon (which makes an earlier game harassment unit more powerful).
There is a way to play fade where it's useful and cost effective. It's not the same way you used to play fade in NS1. It's also not very easy, and I can easily imagine competitive players being able to close the gaps that fades are currently able to exploit on a razors edge of success vs failure.
There's a lot of things I consider broken about the game right now, there are also a lot of potential ways to fix them. Fixing any one thing changes most of the game, especially the fade. I just don't like the idea that giving the fade an extra 50 health and 50 armor fixes the game in a vacume, or even that it's definitely a move in the right direction. The fade being weak is not one of the cornerstone problems in NS2. In that regard, the fade is not broken, it's a bothersome factor in a broken game.
The Fade definitely needs some changes, I just want to encourage people to look at the big picture more. In the end of the day the fade isn't "broken" if it doesn't play like the NS1 fade, it's broken if it has nothing useful to do in the game. Similar to how the onos was broken in NS1. I'd argue the NS2 fade is closer to right than the NS1 onos was.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fade will become the backbone of the alien middle game as soon as Onos is removed.
Then it will be a problem.
The majority of us are not asking for 50 hp and 50 armour (150hp that with carapace would give it 300hp 150ap = 600hp) we are asking for a slight hp (I asked for 50hp and 25AP (100hp thus 300hp 125ap = 550hp with carapace)) but and the NS1 abilities back. (focus and metabolism) Allowing it to serve it ROLE as hit and run.
Currently the fade is a problem because it is pointless.
As to your: "You can have fun playing fade" [so its fine] argument.
You can have fun running around with a axe trying to kill skulks, eventually, however, you get tired of getting no kills, doing nothing useful for your team and dying the majority of the time. The only diference is that an axe doesn't cost you 50 pres.
10 minutes IS late game. I thought NS2 was designed to be 15-20 minute rounds? Late game is not defined by Exo trains or Onos rushes.
10 minutes IS late game. I thought NS2 was designed to be 15-20 minute rounds? Late game is not defined by Exo trains or Onos rushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wat.
10 minutes is definitely not nor should it be the late game... the average game I find myself in last upwards of 30 minutes, meaning 10 minutes in isn't even half way there. Honestly most games are closer to the one hour mark. Never at any stage of development have short matches been common, at least on any of the builds I've played.
It's the game that's the problem.
Long story short: The tech trees and progression is far, far, FAR to compressed. Any resource based strategy game with a clearly defined early, mid and end-game that has too short a time between early and late inevitably destroys its own mid game.
This is because:
1) The end-game has to be filled with expensive power plays that can be relied upon to bring a game to its end, rewarding the side that played better till that point.
2) The mid game cannot be as powerful as the end-game.
3) If the game is compressed, the optimal strategy is then to try and drag out the early-game and eek through and skip to end-game, thereby having a massive advantage over someone that invested in mid-game tech that is now obsolete
The only way to fix it is to make the mid-game relevant again by doubling the average length of the match and tech tree. All other balance changes are band-aids.
To do this they would need to make onos production slower, but at the same time give the aliens more ability to slow down marine teching and expansion. To make the mid-game the main battle-field of the game, like it's sposed to be.
It's kind of like if you could make one-base ultra-ling in Starcraft 2. Mutalisks and siege tanks would seem 'underpowered' and 'useless'. They actually would be fine at their intended role, but said roles are just not relevant to the way the game would play out.
I get plenty of use and fun out of fade so maybe you all suck or maybe by the will of God I play nothing but total noobs. Its not like I even join green servers.
I would really like to see slower unfolding of the tech, as is pretty much everything is on the field by 15 minutes and the remainder of the match is spent in late game.
It's the game that's the problem.
Long story short: The tech trees and progression is far, far, FAR to compressed. Any resource based strategy game with a clearly defined early, mid and end-game that has too short a time between early and late inevitably destroys its own mid game.
This is because:
1) The end-game has to be filled with expensive power plays that can be relied upon to bring a game to its end, rewarding the side that played better till that point.
2) The mid game cannot be as powerful as the end-game.
3) If the game is compressed, the optimal strategy is then to try and drag out the early-game and eek through and skip to end-game, thereby having a massive advantage over someone that invested in mid-game tech that is now obsolete
The only way to fix it is to make the mid-game relevant again by doubling the average length of the match and tech tree. All other balance changes are band-aids.
To do this they would need to make onos production slower, but at the same time give the aliens more ability to slow down marine teching and expansion. To make the mid-game the main battle-field of the game, like it's sposed to be.
It's kind of like if you could make one-base ultra-ling in Starcraft 2. Mutalisks and siege tanks would seem 'underpowered' and 'useless'. They actually would be fine at their intended role, but said roles are just not relevant to the way the game would play out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that's a big, big part of it, but honestly fades are made out of effing paper man. 2 shotgun blasts to kill a Fade, that means AT MOST, that marine has spent as much as you, but if and only if he's bought mines, a jetpack, and a welder along with his shotgun. That means most of the time, someone with a 20 res investment that can be recovered by his team if he dies, is having almost no trouble taking out someone with a 50 res lifeform that can't be re-used, while that lifeform has to connect twice as many times, and do it at melee range instead of from 10 feet away. That means if there are 2 guys with shotguns, you're SoL and really shouldn't even engage them at all.
I'm not saying a fade should be able to take out two shotgun marines without having to retreat and heal, but you should definitely be able to blink in and not be afraid of dying as soon as you come out of the ether. Being able to take even one extra direct hit, or even half of one would make a HUGE difference, and maybe people wouldn't rush the early Onos's so much.
I just played several games tonight as alien, and almost every round someone on the alien team was complaining about how boring it is that we have to essentially just rush for that Onos or else we're gonna fight a losing battle that will drag out for the next 45 minutes.
I actually got yelled at over the mic for buying a fade. It was pretty great.
I think you're right actually, and combat is too fast to be high-skill-cap. But it's a secondary issue and can't be fixed properly anyway till they address the issue of the tech progression being shorter than a mouse's prick.
I can actually hold off groups of marines much more effectively as a skulk, too. I mean you're still gonna die but you can at least make everyone waste a bunch of ammo... with a fade if you stay and fight you're just gonna die.
I found Fades to be decent in rookie servers with low population but that's about it
One thing that I've found telling... is that I do just as well with fade regardless of whether or not we have blink. Double jump + Shadow step might actually be more effective than blink, tbh.
I think if 2hive tres onos gets removed, then buffing fades could be an OK trade-off. Alternatively they could be made cheaper and therefore a real mid-game unit that would be scary when it came out.
I've been thinking about something like this for a while, maybe combined with a general small nerf to pres flow on both teams and of course moving onos egg drop to 3 hives. Fade as a mid-tier 'foot soldier' with its current stats works a lot better when you can reasonably afford to die every now and then, and less pres means fewer shotty marines.
However, it's subjective as to how much time a full game <i>should</i> take and I've been in plenty of back and forth matches that take 30+ minutes so I'll leave that argument for some other folks to decide.
knee jerk reactions
same ones you see everyday here about how *X* is OP. there were those of us that tried reason but eh, reap what you sow. whiners got what they want and lo and behold whiners still whine
:O
threads like these
10 minutes IS late game. I thought NS2 was designed to be 15-20 minute rounds? Late game is not defined by Exo trains or Onos rushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In what environment? Games drag on in the public environment between Aliens being garbage and Marines turtling.
the game is most definitely won by strategy and positioning, and alien mobility does give them the upper hand as long as they're smart enough to coordinate and prevent marines from setting up phase gates all over the place. what you're confusing a 'win' with is when the marine says "come on out mr fade, me and my buddies won't hurt you!" and you herpderp back in looking down the barrel of 4 shotguns then get stuck as an unupgraded skulk for the remainder of the game.
in the time you lose 1 hive... and maybe save your tech by shifting it to your other hive, you could have killed 3-4 extractors or forward staging areas (armory+phase gate) and then gone back to overwhelm and kill those marines and rebuild hive coming out ahead.
not to mention attacking the marine main base to force a beacon.
if your team is capable, there should always be an viable option besides "OVER THAR A MARIEN!!11 KEEEEEL!!!!11one". that's why marine is designed to have obvious general combat advantages and why alien have so many hit n run/non-damage/indirect abilities like celerity, silence, spore, poison bite, leap, blink, stomp, vortex etc.
i will not comment on the fade balance purely because i believe the game is far to 'new' to determine whether fade has underlying issues. i have won many pub games as alien without a single onos, it's not impossible. it's only really the superfast onos which is a tough situation for marines (evident from competitive gameplay).
i'm 100% against any sort of significant damage/hp buff for aliens, because i believe the game is more interesting that aliens are more designed and focused around avoiding damage. therefore each side has different playstyle - marines all about accuracy and aliens all around making yourself a hard target and biting when you can.
in a classic-style FPS like TF2 you have to do both accuracy and evasion simultaneously <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svCmXhYxMGc&t=3m0s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svCmXhYxMGc&t=3m0s</a> , we already have TF2 - what we don't have is asymmetry.
Stuff like:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=519s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=519s</a>
And:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-Ih6KHu84&feature=player_detailpage#t=176s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-Ih6KHu84...tailpage#t=176s</a>
And:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=267s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=267s</a>
And:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=384s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=384s</a>
Were just high skill cap fun gameplay. I'd like it back!
You can't have that without more HP to go round.