*suspects that fades and many other features have been nerfed / disabled in order to make the game playable for the majority of non aiming, turret spamming, order disobeying new players*
<!--quoteo(post=2015388:date=Nov 8 2012, 01:31 PM:name=Volcano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Volcano @ Nov 8 2012, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015388"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you can disagree all you like but that is why they were nerfed because marines couldn't kill them, now we have to live with fades getting 3shotted by a shotgun<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Watch the entire video, you will see plenty of fades dying. Fades are supposed to have focus. Fades are supposed to be killed by focus. [focus fire]
<!--quoteo(post=2015384:date=Nov 8 2012, 02:27 PM:name=Daemonlaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daemonlaud @ Nov 8 2012, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015384"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just plain disagree with the guy above me.
Stuff like: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=519s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=519s</a> And: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-Ih6KHu84&feature=player_detailpage#t=176s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-Ih6KHu84...tailpage#t=176s</a> And: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=267s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=267s</a> And: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=384s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=384s</a> Were just high skill cap fun gameplay. I'd like it back!
You can't have that without more HP to go round.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All of this because Onos was not a viable solution. Now that Onos is really useful ( and you can actually get them ) Fade doesnt need to be the invincible killing machine it used to be. I agree that it shouldnt be so weak or at least more deadly ( someone suggested that his "second" attack would ignore armor value, I love that idea ) but it shouldnt go back to what it used to be because games will be over as soon as the whole alien team reached 50 res )
i've made topic about early onos too, planting 5-6min onos egg should not be viable tactic, nor it should be neccessary for alien wins.
fade is mid game unit, and i can somehow understand if there was fade at 6min passed game if aliens have forgot about upgrades and just went straight fade, but onos ? and it's fully functional onos, it has carapace wich is only up he needs to be very powerful, and if ( and he will ) survive 1-2min he will soon have celerity too.
to have early fade, not only is it more expensive to have fully functional ( blink 30res, 50res fade egg, cara AND adrealine ) so that 80res for early fade and 75res for early onos ? what sense that makes, not only that but it is actually atleast 5times worse unit than onos. actually takes longer to have fade because blink takes longer to research than onos egg to evolve.
instead of complaining about early onos, here is some solutions :
1. make onos egg research for commander, make it cost 50res and atleast 3mins, this makes onos impossible to have at 5-6mins AND it risks more for aliens to make that research because all other vital upgrades are delayed, this makes most sense to me atleast in means of balance, i mean marines needs 1. second commandpost 2. improved armory 3. prototypelab AND research to have exo's, all aliens needs to have onoses is 1 extra hive, that costs 40res, for marines prototypelab ALONE costs 40res and you don't get anything by having prototypelab alone, you have to research exo's also.
2. make lock down for onos eggs ( for commander only ) that you can't make onos egg till 15mins have passed.
3. make onos tied to third hive ( for commander only )
4. make fades a lot more powerful OR cheaper, since fade is basicly now nothing more than improved version of skulk it should cost 20res to evolve to fade, like it costs 20res to have shotgun as marine.
i personally would love to see both option 1. AND 4. sametimes, because that would simply make game more balanced and give aliens a lot more strategy.
Lol, be reasonable people, every single post is full of crazy radical ideas. Radical changes are not how you balance a game, small incremental changes are needed and we are not going to see a reinvention of the alien team. Just something nice and small like the addition of new upgrades (hopefully focus) maybe some carapace scaling (we can hope) and maybe some slight stat buffs to the fade. When you propose something keep it within the realm of the possible.
<!--quoteo(post=2015384:date=Nov 8 2012, 01:27 PM:name=Daemonlaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daemonlaud @ Nov 8 2012, 01:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015384"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just plain disagree with the guy above me.
Stuff like: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=519s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=519s</a> And: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-Ih6KHu84&feature=player_detailpage#t=176s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-Ih6KHu84...tailpage#t=176s</a> And: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=267s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=267s</a> And: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=384s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=384s</a> Were just high skill cap fun gameplay. I'd like it back!
You can't have that without more HP to go round.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think the only reason why kills/sprees like the ones you linked aren't common place in NS2 is because the maps have low ceilings and there are too many choke points. if you jump>shadow step>jump (gives you same acceleration/mobility as the fade in your clips) you just hit your head on the ceiling and stop. i see that as a map problem more than anything else.
I agree that fades seem a bit weak right now, especially compared to their dominance in the previous game. One huge thing they have over Onos is mobility. With movement towers not teleporting aliens between hives anymore, fades can get to anywhere faster than onos.
I think they could probably get away with just buffing alien upgrades but also nerf Onos to compensate. The other lifeforms just feel too weak as the game goes on. The Gorge is ok late on though but only really because Bilebomb gives it a Unique role that no other life form can do. They should bring back the 3 tier upgrade level system and bring back the missing upgrades, I assuming there are only 2 upgrades for each tower instead of 3 because the game is still technically not totally finished.
It is kinda funny though because "sensory" upgrades are at that weak state they were in early NS when it was silence and cloak before Focus was added and silence was moved to "movement". There was also scent of fear to see marines through walls which I wish was there over one of the others or to fill the 3rd slot but I would take focus over it anyway Aliens need that damage upgrade or at the very least skulk really needs it late game.
The fade just doesnt feel like it has a role in NS2.
-Getting around the map quicky to take out structure? A skulk can do that just as well and it costs 0 res. -Outright attacking marines? May aswell wait an extra few mins and go onos which does the job better. -Harassing bases/marines? A lerk is cheaper and in the hands of a good player can be an absolute Harassing nightmare for the marine team.
I think something will have to happen between the fade & onos. Buff the fade enough so it can become the main attack force, with the onos not coming out until later in the game as an actual END game unit. The specifics of this im not sure, but thats the gist of it.
<!--quoteo(post=2015384:date=Nov 8 2012, 01:27 PM:name=Daemonlaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daemonlaud @ Nov 8 2012, 01:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015384"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just plain disagree with the guy above me.
Stuff like: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=519s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=519s</a> And: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-Ih6KHu84&feature=player_detailpage#t=176s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-Ih6KHu84...tailpage#t=176s</a> And: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=267s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=267s</a> And: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=384s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=384s</a> Were just high skill cap fun gameplay. I'd like it back!
You can't have that without more HP to go round.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One thing they've changed is that it is not much harder to get stuck on geometry and players. If you blink into an armoury, you will now deflect upwards and keep your momentum. The same with players (even allies). In ns1 you'd get stuck on absolutely everything, which was actually useful sometimes as skulk/fade when moving onto a marine The new system also happens to make playing onos a whole lot easier since you don't get blocked as easily when retreating.
<!--quoteo(post=2015410:date=Nov 8 2012, 09:02 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 8 2012, 09:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Watch the entire video, you will see plenty of fades dying. Fades are supposed to have focus. Fades are supposed to be killed by focus. [focus fire]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. Get focus back, fade will be feasible late game. Rework vortex and it may actually be interesting.
Get focus back, skulk will be feasible endgame. Fix xenocide and it will have an actual role besides chomping structures when no marines are around.
+1 for replacing vortex with focus for fades only. They are meant for hit and run attacks, and currently swipes against A3 marines late game do not justify 50pres.
IMO both the Fade and the Lerk need to be either cheaper so you can field em more often, or more powerful (at least more durable) so you don't spend your hard earned pres in 2 minutes because of unlucky placement+client side hitreg vs shotgun or pistolspam if you are of average skill. Yes, the "skilled" player will choose his battles, but even on long lives, I find myself hanging back and running to heal at hives most of the time with ample amounts of map-checking to make sure im not running into multiple marines without backup
Skulks can scale badly against marines with a/w upgrades and new weapons if the other evolutions are available frequently or they are sufficiently powerful, but you can't expect people to feel badass playing skulk 90% of the time as it is now
<!--quoteo(post=2015733:date=Nov 8 2012, 07:23 PM:name=mokkat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mokkat @ Nov 8 2012, 07:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO both the Fade and the Lerk need to be either cheaper so you can field em more often, or more powerful (at least more durable) so you don't spend your hard earned pres in 2 minutes because of unlucky placement+client side hitreg vs shotgun or pistolspam if you are of average skill. Yes, the "skilled" player will choose his battles, but even on long lives, I find myself hanging back and running to heal at hives most of the time with ample amounts of map-checking to make sure im not running into multiple marines without backup
Skulks can scale badly against marines with a/w upgrades and new weapons if the other evolutions are available frequently or they are sufficiently powerful, but you can't expect people to feel badass playing skulk 90% of the time as it is now<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
skulk 90% of the time... what?
after 6 min you should have 1-2 gorge, an onos, 1-2 lerk and the rest skulk 'saving up' for fade/onos
after 15 min you should have 1-2 gorge, 1-2 onos, 1-2 lerk or fade and the rest skulk 'saving up' for fade/onos
you only get stuck as skulk if your team sucks and you're getting obliterated by the marines.
You have to pick Carapace just to be able to survive being hit by a shotgun more than once. Without Regeneration and Metabolize you are stuck running all the way back to the Hive to heal. You literally spend more time healing than fighting as Fade.
Fade health in NS1 - 300/150 or 300/250 with Carapace. Fade health in NS2 - 250/50 or 250/100 with Carapace. LMG and Shotgun damage values are the same as they were in NS1.
I started playing Lerk (and actually trying, i'd ###### around with one before) for the first time yesterday, even those flying paper bags with teeth are more deadly than the fade. It's a pretty sad state of affairs.
<!--quoteo(post=2015767:date=Nov 8 2012, 02:53 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 8 2012, 02:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have to pick Carapace just to be able to survive being hit by a shotgun more than once. Without Regeneration and Metabolize you are stuck running all the way back to the Hive to heal. You literally spend more time healing than fighting as Fade.
Fade health in NS1 - 300/150 or 300/250 with Carapace. Fade health in NS2 - 250/50 or 250/100 with Carapace. LMG and Shotgun damage values are the same as they were in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LMG marines find it harder to hit faces with their blink effect now though, so they reduced health to compensate... making shotguns stupidly powerful.
Marines seem to have no problem killing me while I'm blinking away from a fight :/ it's almost as if i was MORE visible, tbh. I think it might have something to do with moving in predictable patterns since I'm more focused on navigating to my hive as quickly as possible than I am with trying to evade enemy fire.
<!--quoteo(post=2016071:date=Nov 8 2012, 11:47 PM:name=hate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hate @ Nov 8 2012, 11:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A video of one person doing well isn't exactly very strong evidence...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but it's evidence nonetheless. where is your evidence of fade being weak?
i'm not saying fades are perfectly fine and should remain untouched indefinitely... i just think at the very least it should be left until the onos build is tuned, then maybe fade will find it's proper place.
I've been surviving longer and getting bigger kills streaks with a Lerk before dieing than I am with a fade who comes into play 3 times longer into the game
Also by Kill Streak I mean where I enter a room alone with 4 or 5 other marines and solo all of them
I've done it a few times as Lerk, but lately I'm very lucky to get even a triple as a Fade
From a balance standpoint I think Fade needs better 3rd ability for late game
It sounds like someone's underestimating the usefulness of carapice for Fade. I always go adrenaline, silence and carapice and have never had any noticable issues playing as a fade.
If you're trying to solo more than 2 marines with shotguns, without carapice, i'm not surprised you're having problems. Fade is not a tank. That's the onos. Play him for your clumsy face to face solo battle tactics. I can understand why they maybe brought the fade power down when they released the onos, especially when Aliens were always more powerful than marines during beta anyway.
One thing i will agree with is at least if they brought the price down there would be some fade play without blink. Meaning Fade isn't an instant upgrade mid game and makes players more likely to buy fade rather than wait a little longer for onos, which is considerably easier to play and more dextrous (Fade does bugger all damage to structures).
I'll say it again. You can't expect Fade to be just a ticket to winville.
The only thing i'm not happy with as fade is being able to get hit in the ether. It makes advancing on sentries a real ######. I actually find it easier running across the ceiling as a skulk to snipe the battery, than blinking over a sentry nest to get some clueless marine.
So yea, hit and run tactics. Run in, kill a marine or 2 and leg it. Rinse and repeat. What's the point in having a mid game evolution that can solo entire teams of marines from even a novice player. That doesn't make any sense to me.
Evidence of fade being weak comes from 20+ hours played since launch... he's too weak to have a role in the game.
Now, I'm not saying that the fade is necessarily bad. The game is just somewhat broken. The early Onos drop is really what's ###### things up for him though I think. Spending 50 res on fade is almost always going to be a worse choice than saving for an Onos if the fade stays in his current state.
The early Onos drop isn't neccesarily a problem on it's own, it's a symptom of a much bigger issue that's infecting the whole alien team right now, and that issue is the complete lack of mid game.
Grazr, i've played fade without carapace a total of ONE time since the game was released. He's complete garbage without it. I've been playing this game for over a year now, I think I know what fades are supposed to do -_-
<!--quoteo(post=2016089:date=Nov 9 2012, 12:03 AM:name=grazr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (grazr @ Nov 9 2012, 12:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It sounds like someone's underestimating the usefulness of carapice for Fade. I always go adrenaline, silence and carapice and have never had any noticable issues playing as a fade.
If you're trying to solo more than 2 marines with shotguns, without carapice, i'm not surprised you're having problems. Fade is not a tank. That's the onos. Play him for your clumsy face to face solo battle tactics. I can understand why they maybe brought the fade power down when they released the onos, especially when Aliens were always more powerful than marines during beta anyway.
One thing i will agree with is at least if they brought the price down there would be some fade play without blink. Meaning Fade isn't an instant upgrade mid game and makes players more likely to buy fade rather than wait a little longer for onos, which is considerably easier to play and more dextrous (Fade does bugger all damage to structures).
I'll say it again. You can't expect Fade to be just a ticket to winville.
The only thing i'm not happy with as fade is being able to get hit in the ether. It makes advancing on sentries a real ######. I actually find it easier running across the ceiling as a skulk to snipe the battery, than blinking over a sentry nest to get some clueless marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the good thing about fade's structure killing abilities is that 1 marine can't stop you... it takes at least 2 marines, and that means your team should outnumber the marines in the rest of the map.
The fade is definitely not very rookie friendly, but I don't think it really needs to be. The majority of the players got their hands on the game only a week ago, as the players get better the fades will get exponentially better too. A skilled fade can easily wreck the marine team at the moment, if you buff it just to fit the current level of pub play there will just be more problems down the road.
<!--quoteo(post=2016094:date=Nov 9 2012, 02:06 AM:name=hate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hate @ Nov 9 2012, 02:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Evidence of fade being weak comes from 20+ hours played since launch... he's too weak to have a role in the game.
Now, I'm not saying that the fade is necessarily bad. The game is just somewhat broken. The early Onos drop is really what's ###### things up for him though I think. Spending 50 res on fade is almost always going to be a worse choice than saving for an Onos if the fade stays in his current state.
The early Onos drop isn't neccesarily a problem on it's own, it's a symptom of a much bigger issue that's infecting the whole alien team right now, and that issue is the complete lack of mid game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just need to play as the fade more. Not that I'm proud of pub stomping or anything since that is ridiculously easy for beta veterans right now, but most of the time I can easily stay alive for the whole game as a fade and rack up an insane amount of kills. The fade is almost as much about movement as the skulk is, use blink to jump on top of marines in tall rooms, use the shorter blink to warp around marines while you're close to them while hitting them at the same time.
fade looks pretty nice to me... if played right. (dont mean to pick on wiry, but this is like the only first-person 'skilled' footage i've seen)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're joking right? How is that supposed to be evidence of the fade being good? People defending the fade just has to play the game some more and preferably the 200+ hours a lot of has spent in NS1.
In fact I feel disgusted by all the people coming here without even having heard about NS1 and then dictating about what is fine and not.
<!--quoteo(post=2016097:date=Nov 8 2012, 04:06 PM:name=Rautapalli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rautapalli @ Nov 8 2012, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fade is definitely not very rookie friendly, but I don't think it really needs to be. The majority of the players got their hands on the game only a week ago, as the players get better the fades will get exponentially better too. A skilled fade can easily wreck the marine team at the moment, if you buff it just to fit the current level of pub play there will just be more problems down the road.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A skilled fade can ONLY wreck the marine team at the moment because the marine teams are full of the same new-players the alien teams are full of.
Trust me, this isn't about me being a bad fade. I'm not the best fade, but if I was getting a grade on it I'd be a solid B-.
The Fade in his current position might even be fine if they made him cost less, he's not a BAD life form per se, but going Fade is almost always a bad decision.
<!--quoteo(post=2016096:date=Nov 8 2012, 04:06 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 8 2012, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the good thing about fade's structure killing abilities is that 1 marine can't stop you... it takes at least 2 marines, and that means your team should outnumber the marines in the rest of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your last few posts, and the posts I saw in that thread about Wiry's stream made me think of this clip. Replace Obama with Wary, and put yourself as the singers.
<!--quoteo(post=2016102:date=Nov 9 2012, 02:07 AM:name=Cane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cane @ Nov 9 2012, 02:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're joking right? How is that supposed to be evidence of the fade being good? People defending the fade just has to play the game some more and preferably the 200+ hours a lot of has spent in NS1.
In fact I feel disgusted by all the people coming here without even having heard about NS1 and then dictating about what is fine and not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd argue that the people complaining about the fade being too weak are the ones that need to play the game more, especially fade.
Also the last time I checked this game was called NS2, not NS1 HD. NS1 was hardly perfect, it had it's fair share of balance problems. Just because the fade isn't a direct remake of what it was in NS1 doesn't mean it's broken.
Comments
Watch the entire video, you will see plenty of fades dying.
Fades are supposed to have focus.
Fades are supposed to be killed by focus. [focus fire]
Stuff like:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=519s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=519s</a>
And:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-Ih6KHu84&feature=player_detailpage#t=176s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-Ih6KHu84...tailpage#t=176s</a>
And:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=267s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=267s</a>
And:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=384s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=384s</a>
Were just high skill cap fun gameplay. I'd like it back!
You can't have that without more HP to go round.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All of this because Onos was not a viable solution.
Now that Onos is really useful ( and you can actually get them ) Fade doesnt need to be the invincible killing machine it used to be.
I agree that it shouldnt be so weak or at least more deadly ( someone suggested that his "second" attack would ignore armor value, I love that idea ) but it shouldnt go back to what it used to be because games will be over as soon as the whole alien team reached 50 res )
fade is mid game unit, and i can somehow understand if there was fade at 6min passed game if aliens have forgot about upgrades and just went straight fade, but onos ? and it's fully functional onos, it has carapace wich is only up he needs to be very powerful, and if ( and he will ) survive 1-2min he will soon have celerity too.
to have early fade, not only is it more expensive to have fully functional ( blink 30res, 50res fade egg, cara AND adrealine ) so that 80res for early fade and 75res for early onos ? what sense that makes, not only that but it is actually atleast 5times worse unit than onos. actually takes longer to have fade because blink takes longer to research than onos egg to evolve.
instead of complaining about early onos, here is some solutions :
1. make onos egg research for commander, make it cost 50res and atleast 3mins, this makes onos impossible to have at 5-6mins AND it risks more for aliens to make that research because all other vital upgrades are delayed, this makes most sense to me atleast in means of balance, i mean marines needs 1. second commandpost 2. improved armory 3. prototypelab AND research to have exo's, all aliens needs to have onoses is 1 extra hive, that costs 40res, for marines prototypelab ALONE costs 40res and you don't get anything by having prototypelab alone, you have to research exo's also.
2. make lock down for onos eggs ( for commander only ) that you can't make onos egg till 15mins have passed.
3. make onos tied to third hive ( for commander only )
4. make fades a lot more powerful OR cheaper, since fade is basicly now nothing more than improved version of skulk it should cost 20res to evolve to fade, like it costs 20res to have shotgun as marine.
i personally would love to see both option 1. AND 4. sametimes, because that would simply make game more balanced and give aliens a lot more strategy.
Stuff like:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=519s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=519s</a>
And:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-Ih6KHu84&feature=player_detailpage#t=176s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-Ih6KHu84...tailpage#t=176s</a>
And:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=267s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=267s</a>
And:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=384s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=384s</a>
Were just high skill cap fun gameplay. I'd like it back!
You can't have that without more HP to go round.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/337244868" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/337244868</a> 0:15:47
i think the only reason why kills/sprees like the ones you linked aren't common place in NS2 is because the maps have low ceilings and there are too many choke points. if you jump>shadow step>jump (gives you same acceleration/mobility as the fade in your clips) you just hit your head on the ceiling and stop. i see that as a map problem more than anything else.
It is kinda funny though because "sensory" upgrades are at that weak state they were in early NS when it was silence and cloak before Focus was added and silence was moved to "movement". There was also scent of fear to see marines through walls which I wish was there over one of the others or to fill the 3rd slot but I would take focus over it anyway Aliens need that damage upgrade or at the very least skulk really needs it late game.
-Getting around the map quicky to take out structure? A skulk can do that just as well and it costs 0 res.
-Outright attacking marines? May aswell wait an extra few mins and go onos which does the job better.
-Harassing bases/marines? A lerk is cheaper and in the hands of a good player can be an absolute Harassing nightmare for the marine team.
I think something will have to happen between the fade & onos. Buff the fade enough so it can become the main attack force, with the onos not coming out until later in the game as an actual END game unit. The specifics of this im not sure, but thats the gist of it.
Stuff like:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=519s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=519s</a>
And:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-Ih6KHu84&feature=player_detailpage#t=176s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-Ih6KHu84...tailpage#t=176s</a>
And:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=267s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=267s</a>
And:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Df-Ih6KHu84#t=384s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Ih6KHu84#t=384s</a>
Were just high skill cap fun gameplay. I'd like it back!
You can't have that without more HP to go round.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One thing they've changed is that it is not much harder to get stuck on geometry and players. If you blink into an armoury, you will now deflect upwards and keep your momentum. The same with players (even allies). In ns1 you'd get stuck on absolutely everything, which was actually useful sometimes as skulk/fade when moving onto a marine The new system also happens to make playing onos a whole lot easier since you don't get blocked as easily when retreating.
Fades are supposed to have focus.
Fades are supposed to be killed by focus. [focus fire]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. Get focus back, fade will be feasible late game. Rework vortex and it may actually be interesting.
Get focus back, skulk will be feasible endgame. Fix xenocide and it will have an actual role besides chomping structures when no marines are around.
Skulks can scale badly against marines with a/w upgrades and new weapons if the other evolutions are available frequently or they are sufficiently powerful, but you can't expect people to feel badass playing skulk 90% of the time as it is now
Skulks can scale badly against marines with a/w upgrades and new weapons if the other evolutions are available frequently or they are sufficiently powerful, but you can't expect people to feel badass playing skulk 90% of the time as it is now<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
skulk 90% of the time... what?
after 6 min you should have 1-2 gorge, an onos, 1-2 lerk and the rest skulk 'saving up' for fade/onos
after 15 min you should have 1-2 gorge, 1-2 onos, 1-2 lerk or fade and the rest skulk 'saving up' for fade/onos
you only get stuck as skulk if your team sucks and you're getting obliterated by the marines.
Fade health in NS1 - 300/150 or 300/250 with Carapace.
Fade health in NS2 - 250/50 or 250/100 with Carapace.
LMG and Shotgun damage values are the same as they were in NS1.
Fade health in NS1 - 300/150 or 300/250 with Carapace.
Fade health in NS2 - 250/50 or 250/100 with Carapace.
LMG and Shotgun damage values are the same as they were in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LMG marines find it harder to hit faces with their blink effect now though, so they reduced health to compensate... making shotguns stupidly powerful.
fade looks pretty nice to me... if played right. (dont mean to pick on wiry, but this is like the only first-person 'skilled' footage i've seen)
but it's evidence nonetheless. where is your evidence of fade being weak?
i'm not saying fades are perfectly fine and should remain untouched indefinitely... i just think at the very least it should be left until the onos build is tuned, then maybe fade will find it's proper place.
I've been surviving longer and getting bigger kills streaks with a Lerk before dieing than I am with a fade who comes into play 3 times longer into the game
Also by Kill Streak I mean where I enter a room alone with 4 or 5 other marines and solo all of them
I've done it a few times as Lerk, but lately I'm very lucky to get even a triple as a Fade
From a balance standpoint I think Fade needs better 3rd ability for late game
If you're trying to solo more than 2 marines with shotguns, without carapice, i'm not surprised you're having problems. Fade is not a tank. That's the onos. Play him for your clumsy face to face solo battle tactics. I can understand why they maybe brought the fade power down when they released the onos, especially when Aliens were always more powerful than marines during beta anyway.
One thing i will agree with is at least if they brought the price down there would be some fade play without blink. Meaning Fade isn't an instant upgrade mid game and makes players more likely to buy fade rather than wait a little longer for onos, which is considerably easier to play and more dextrous (Fade does bugger all damage to structures).
I'll say it again. You can't expect Fade to be just a ticket to winville.
The only thing i'm not happy with as fade is being able to get hit in the ether. It makes advancing on sentries a real ######. I actually find it easier running across the ceiling as a skulk to snipe the battery, than blinking over a sentry nest to get some clueless marine.
So yea, hit and run tactics. Run in, kill a marine or 2 and leg it. Rinse and repeat. What's the point in having a mid game evolution that can solo entire teams of marines from even a novice player. That doesn't make any sense to me.
Now, I'm not saying that the fade is necessarily bad. The game is just somewhat broken. The early Onos drop is really what's ###### things up for him though I think. Spending 50 res on fade is almost always going to be a worse choice than saving for an Onos if the fade stays in his current state.
The early Onos drop isn't neccesarily a problem on it's own, it's a symptom of a much bigger issue that's infecting the whole alien team right now, and that issue is the complete lack of mid game.
Grazr, i've played fade without carapace a total of ONE time since the game was released. He's complete garbage without it. I've been playing this game for over a year now, I think I know what fades are supposed to do -_-
If you're trying to solo more than 2 marines with shotguns, without carapice, i'm not surprised you're having problems. Fade is not a tank. That's the onos. Play him for your clumsy face to face solo battle tactics. I can understand why they maybe brought the fade power down when they released the onos, especially when Aliens were always more powerful than marines during beta anyway.
One thing i will agree with is at least if they brought the price down there would be some fade play without blink. Meaning Fade isn't an instant upgrade mid game and makes players more likely to buy fade rather than wait a little longer for onos, which is considerably easier to play and more dextrous (Fade does bugger all damage to structures).
I'll say it again. You can't expect Fade to be just a ticket to winville.
The only thing i'm not happy with as fade is being able to get hit in the ether. It makes advancing on sentries a real ######. I actually find it easier running across the ceiling as a skulk to snipe the battery, than blinking over a sentry nest to get some clueless marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the good thing about fade's structure killing abilities is that 1 marine can't stop you... it takes at least 2 marines, and that means your team should outnumber the marines in the rest of the map.
<!--quoteo(post=2016094:date=Nov 9 2012, 02:06 AM:name=hate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hate @ Nov 9 2012, 02:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Evidence of fade being weak comes from 20+ hours played since launch... he's too weak to have a role in the game.
Now, I'm not saying that the fade is necessarily bad. The game is just somewhat broken. The early Onos drop is really what's ###### things up for him though I think. Spending 50 res on fade is almost always going to be a worse choice than saving for an Onos if the fade stays in his current state.
The early Onos drop isn't neccesarily a problem on it's own, it's a symptom of a much bigger issue that's infecting the whole alien team right now, and that issue is the complete lack of mid game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just need to play as the fade more. Not that I'm proud of pub stomping or anything since that is ridiculously easy for beta veterans right now, but most of the time I can easily stay alive for the whole game as a fade and rack up an insane amount of kills. The fade is almost as much about movement as the skulk is, use blink to jump on top of marines in tall rooms, use the shorter blink to warp around marines while you're close to them while hitting them at the same time.
fade looks pretty nice to me... if played right. (dont mean to pick on wiry, but this is like the only first-person 'skilled' footage i've seen)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're joking right? How is that supposed to be evidence of the fade being good? People defending the fade just has to play the game some more and preferably the 200+ hours a lot of has spent in NS1.
In fact I feel disgusted by all the people coming here without even having heard about NS1 and then dictating about what is fine and not.
A skilled fade can ONLY wreck the marine team at the moment because the marine teams are full of the same new-players the alien teams are full of.
Trust me, this isn't about me being a bad fade. I'm not the best fade, but if I was getting a grade on it I'd be a solid B-.
The Fade in his current position might even be fine if they made him cost less, he's not a BAD life form per se, but going Fade is almost always a bad decision.
Your last few posts, and the posts I saw in that thread about Wiry's stream made me think of this clip. Replace Obama with Wary, and put yourself as the singers.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08S4poMGvwA" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08S4poMGvwA</a>
In fact I feel disgusted by all the people coming here without even having heard about NS1 and then dictating about what is fine and not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd argue that the people complaining about the fade being too weak are the ones that need to play the game more, especially fade.
Also the last time I checked this game was called NS2, not NS1 HD. NS1 was hardly perfect, it had it's fair share of balance problems. Just because the fade isn't a direct remake of what it was in NS1 doesn't mean it's broken.