Let's talk Meta
Fat_Man_Little_Coat
Join Date: 2003-12-02 Member: 23857Members
Join Date: 2003-12-02 Member: 23857Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Sit back, relax and look at the next evolution</div>Man, I love this community. I literally talked for 45 in the ready room about strategy and the state of the game with a person who just bought it, and it was fantastic. The discussion detailed the meta aspects of this game, and I really wanted to share it with some more people because of how enjoyable it was.
He brought up the 6 min Onos being OP, now while I can totally understand his point, I also was talking about the evolution of the community. He was wondering what the counter to a six min onos could possible be, and I thought, well, delay the second hive past six minutes, or just hunt down that Onos. That onos represents two hives basically. Learn to harass nodes etc....
Then I realized that to a newer player/marine com, this seemed like a very difficult task, understandably so, and the meta talk began.
I think when the game was first released a lot of players were familiar with marine com due to NS1 and general FPS mechanics that are used for marines and so they stomped the aliens consistently. The forums showed this: "Exos are overpowered, marines are overpowered etc" and the calls to strengthen aliens where huge.
A week later, I'm seeing the next evolution, which is that players have become familiar with Aliens, and are familiar with Alien coms enough that they've adapted and have even come up with their own basic strategies, including the "6 min Onos". Alien Coms are now super familiar with the maps, know the node locations, know how to cyst quickly, Alien players know maps more now, know how to play aliens better, actually use the alien flashlight or minimaps and such and as a result, are countering exos fairly well, and have been dominating with this strat more and more often. And again, the forums are showing this.
Now, I'm starting, just barely, to see the third evolution, which is that the Marine coms are starting to get better. Perhaps Alien coms are getting bored with Alien comming and want to try the marine comming. Now they're taking their experience as an Alien com and map knowledge with them to the Marine side, and who better to counter an Alien, than a person who was a really good Alien com?
And that's when I realized what a beautiful meta game this is.
Each side is actually adapting to counter the other side. I'm seeing more upgrades consistently with Marine coms now and fewer sentries, less Exos are being used, and more jetpacks. Com's are now co ordinating better attacks, using arcs in tandem with attacks, and using less sentries for more upgrades. And focusing on harassing nodes, and slowing Alien expansion to counter the "6 min Onos".
And that's the current turn. The marines players are starting to value discipline more, are actually keeping the com accountable by telling him what upgrades are the best in the situation and slowly, the Marine side as a community, is evolving to counter the new Alien threat, not the 6 min Onos, but the smart Alien Khammander.
And the most meta part? The very name of the game itself is called "Natural Selection 2" A game that is a sequel that barely survived, but found a way, scratching and clawing to be produced, and now exists, almost soley because of that very desire to exist in the first place.
Very Meta. Absolutely love it.
He brought up the 6 min Onos being OP, now while I can totally understand his point, I also was talking about the evolution of the community. He was wondering what the counter to a six min onos could possible be, and I thought, well, delay the second hive past six minutes, or just hunt down that Onos. That onos represents two hives basically. Learn to harass nodes etc....
Then I realized that to a newer player/marine com, this seemed like a very difficult task, understandably so, and the meta talk began.
I think when the game was first released a lot of players were familiar with marine com due to NS1 and general FPS mechanics that are used for marines and so they stomped the aliens consistently. The forums showed this: "Exos are overpowered, marines are overpowered etc" and the calls to strengthen aliens where huge.
A week later, I'm seeing the next evolution, which is that players have become familiar with Aliens, and are familiar with Alien coms enough that they've adapted and have even come up with their own basic strategies, including the "6 min Onos". Alien Coms are now super familiar with the maps, know the node locations, know how to cyst quickly, Alien players know maps more now, know how to play aliens better, actually use the alien flashlight or minimaps and such and as a result, are countering exos fairly well, and have been dominating with this strat more and more often. And again, the forums are showing this.
Now, I'm starting, just barely, to see the third evolution, which is that the Marine coms are starting to get better. Perhaps Alien coms are getting bored with Alien comming and want to try the marine comming. Now they're taking their experience as an Alien com and map knowledge with them to the Marine side, and who better to counter an Alien, than a person who was a really good Alien com?
And that's when I realized what a beautiful meta game this is.
Each side is actually adapting to counter the other side. I'm seeing more upgrades consistently with Marine coms now and fewer sentries, less Exos are being used, and more jetpacks. Com's are now co ordinating better attacks, using arcs in tandem with attacks, and using less sentries for more upgrades. And focusing on harassing nodes, and slowing Alien expansion to counter the "6 min Onos".
And that's the current turn. The marines players are starting to value discipline more, are actually keeping the com accountable by telling him what upgrades are the best in the situation and slowly, the Marine side as a community, is evolving to counter the new Alien threat, not the 6 min Onos, but the smart Alien Khammander.
And the most meta part? The very name of the game itself is called "Natural Selection 2" A game that is a sequel that barely survived, but found a way, scratching and clawing to be produced, and now exists, almost soley because of that very desire to exist in the first place.
Very Meta. Absolutely love it.
Comments
I mean, where does the strategy change when people realize the Onos is the only reliable solution? the game simply revolves around the Onos at that point, defending the three RTs "by whatever means", or marines pressuring those RTs simply to delay the win button. doesn't seem very in-depth or strategic at all :/
I mean, where does the strategy change when people realize the Onos is the only reliable solution? the game simply revolves around the Onos at that point, defending the three RTs "by whatever means", or marines pressuring those RTs simply to delay the win button. doesn't seem very in-depth or strategic at all :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not quite following you. And pardon my directness, I think we may have different definitions of what metagaming means.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming</a> defines meta gaming as "In simple terms, it is the use of out-of-game information or resources to affect one's in-game decisions." And that's exactly happening, people are starting to look at these forums to learn to play better, not even just for skill levels like walljumping, but actual strategies pages and pages of it. And what is popular in the forums is becoming popular in the game itself.
Some players are getting good enough they can recognize a strat just by look at the map 1 or 2 minutes into a game largely because they know what is popular in the community right now.
edit: to clarify my point: People who weren't scanning a hive around the 4 minute mark just a week ago are doing it now, because they know how popular an early hive drop is in the community and how popular a six minute Onos is right now. If that strat wasn't popular, there is a good chance a newer com simply would not be doing that. I myself know on Veil when I com as an alien the Marine com will likely go for Nano, simply because that's what is thought as the best bet and is what's popular right now, so I counter that by ordering a rush on their base (boring I know) or doing and early hive drop.
The meta was fine for release, but people are going to crave more combos that work:
Aliens Need:
Lerk's to feel useful with Camouflage and a reason to drop Lerk <i>(and fade)</i> Eggs
A crag evolution that synergies with Xenocide
A counter to observation's passive and activated detection
Marines Need:
A GL and Flamethrower to not feel like downgrades against everything, but their intended target
The ability to have MACs or ARCs follow a target around
A way for one marine to beat an Onos when you only have 1 Command Chair up
Also notable is that if a comm wants to push with Whips or ARCs its too expensive right now to do it any time, but endgame where you own the map
<i>(Basically when it doesn't matter is the only time you use these strats)</i>
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hope not serious....
You wouldn't even accept a 2% chance that a +3/+3 marine with a proper weapon could solo an onos with high ground or vent cover?
<i>Now I'm hoping you're not serious</i>
All it takes is one or two guys on scout duty, focused on seeking and destroying alien harvesters, to completely ruin the 2 hive tres onos strategy long before the egg is dropped.
The meta was fine for release, but people are going to crave more combos that work:
Aliens Need:
Lerk's to feel useful with Camouflage and a reason to drop Lerk <i>(and fade)</i> Eggs
A crag evolution that synergies with Xenocide
A counter to observation's passive and activated detection
Marines Need:
A GL and Flamethrower to not feel like downgrades against everything, but their intended target
The ability to have MACs or ARCs follow a target around
A way for one marine to beat an Onos when you only have 1 Command Chair up
Also notable is that if a comm wants to push with Whips or ARCs its too expensive right now to do it any time, but endgame where you own the map
<i>(Basically when it doesn't matter is the only time you use these strats)</i>
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I agree with you on the lerk, IIRC lerk could cloak while gliding in NS1 which would be pretty damn useful now that his spores work like a cropduster.
OBS passive reveal needs to be dropped completely, if marines can't figure out the big circle coming towards them is a threat they will learn the hard way.
GL is anything but a downgrade, proper use of JP+GL or just groups of GL users near a phase gate with support is ridiculously powerful. If anything, it's TOO good.
Flamethrower would be better if it did bonus damage to fleeing targets IMO.
Marines can beat onos with smart use of mines and/or shotgun. I'm pretty sure most coms can scrounge up 35 tres in six minutes. The shotguns will also help with early node denial too.
All it takes is one or two guys on scout duty, focused on seeking and destroying alien harvesters, to completely ruin the 2 hive tres onos strategy long before the egg is dropped.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do you want to talk about balance with a premise that says that the marine players are stupid ?
All it takes is one or two guys on scout duty, focused on seeking and destroying alien harvesters, to completely ruin the 2 hive tres onos strategy long before the egg is dropped.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You assume the scouts can just run around uncontested, if the alien team are good and going for 2 hive tres onos they aren't going to want to lose any harvesters, it delays the egg drop.
I mean, where does the strategy change when people realize the Onos is the only reliable solution? the game simply revolves around the Onos at that point, defending the three RTs "by whatever means", or marines pressuring those RTs simply to delay the win button. doesn't seem very in-depth or strategic at all :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're not entirely correct here. Metagame shifts can result from skill improving. When I first started playing last week the standard on pubs was very reminiscent of "10 min no rush" play from starcraft. Both teams would just sort of build up, and only have small limited skirmishes until the late game when a bunch of exos would smash into a bunch of onos infront of the alien hive. In that style game, usually the marines won. People complained that exos were invincible. The forums were full of "OP MARINES" threads.
You don't really see games like that any more. People are very comfortable countering exos now, exploiting their immobility. The 6 minute onos has found it's way more regularly into pub games...
I don't think the metagame has shifted much for beta players... it's more been a frustrating exercise in watching everyone else catch up, but there has been a metagame shift for new players, and from NS1 players adapting to NS2. I still see many players using NS1 strats that don't work quite so well for NS2. But we're modernizing slowly but surely (for better or for worse)
OP, i love your name and avatar... farley was one of the highlights of my teenage years :)
What is happening is:
> New players flood in and Marines easymode their way all over unfamiliar skulks due to prior FPS knowledge
> Skulks start to learn how to suck less and live long enough for Onos
> Marines now have to learn NS2 skills to keep up with rising Alien capabilities
> Both teams learn how to CC rush / egglock and games approach the equilibrium they were at before launch.
Right now we're around the 2nd bullet. It's a change in the strategies and capabilities of the community at large, but there isn't much meta about it.
You don't really see games like that any more. People are very comfortable countering exos now, exploiting their immobility. The 6 minute onos has found it's way more regularly into pub games...
I don't think the metagame has shifted much for beta players... it's more been a frustrating exercise in watching everyone else catch up, but there has been a metagame shift for new players, and from NS1 players adapting to NS2. I still see many players using NS1 strats that don't work quite so well for NS2. But we're modernizing slowly but surely (for better or for worse)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're right, marines vs. banelings in SC2 is a pretty good example of this. it's definitely feasible to have dramatic skill shifts change around the game, I just don't see NS2 having similar qualities regarding Onos.
Yes whats taking place is just new players learning the best strategies which IS a metagame shift for those players, but there has been no metagame shift for experienced players.
In reality though as things currently stand I am not sure that NS will experience a metagame shift. The metagame is the general trends seen in game strategy. For example the metagame among experienced players is to go for fast onos for aliens as well as celerity/cara and quick phase gates for marines as well as quick ups. NS has pretty clearly defined best strategies, so no shift will take place unless some team shows up and executes a new strategy really well with the shade hive or smth.
A (made up) shift it the metagame would occur if because aliens knew marines always go for quick armor ups, they started to get shade hive first and got focus because focus could allow 2 bites to still beat armor 1 marines. Marines would then have to change their basic strategy to account for this , and a shift in the metagame would take place. The marine metagame would maybe shift to getting attack 1 first.
(focus was a skill in ns1 that allowed aliens to deal double damage at a slower attack rate)