What About Balancing In 1.04?

Naughty_BremboNaughty_Brembo Join Date: 2002-05-30 Member: 701Members
<div class="IPBDescription">-not asking for rocket launchers</div> Ok, I know this has been debated to death and I´m now putting on my flame-protective clothing...

Does anyone else feel that NS is currently very unbalanced in favour of the aliens? I got quite worried when I saw the lack of balancing in the new beta...something needs to be done before people start leaving.

With "unbalanced" I simply mean that aliens are winning too often...it doesn´t mean the game in itself is unbalanced. There´s a difference, if you think about it.

(And no, I´m not one of those guys who wants to be an unstoppable marine, I just want the games a bit more even. In fact, I like playing Alien more, but I still wish the marines had a better chance...it´s getting boring to slaughter the marines over and over again.)

On public servers that I play, Aliens are now winning something like 8-9 games out of every 10.

Do you think it is because:

a) Marine teams have more newbie players = skilled players chose to play alien (IMO: partly true)
or
b) Maps are unbalanced (IMO: not true)
or
c) Species are unbalanced (IMO: partly true)

I know what will happen now: All players who like to play as aliens will tell me to STFU and stop crying...you obviously haven´t understood that I´m mostly an alien player myself. And please spare me from all the "with a good commander and playing as a team the marines win"-speeches...I know already. I´m just saying it isn´t happening a lot. Stop being so afraid of admitting that the marines have a tougher time out there...you´re not being honest. Maybe the game in itself is perfectly balanced, but it´s just not working out in the pub severs.

Maybe the mod is balanced for clan tourny matches (because with a REALLY strong marine TEAM and a good commander the playing field is more or less even) but this decision is in fact ruining public play...in my opinion.

eh...I know I´m just ranting but this is my look on it and I´m sticking to it.

What do you guys think?

/NB

Note: I am NOT asking for any alien nerfing or power-ups to any marine weapon...I´m just asking you to acknowledge that aliens are winning far too many games as it is right now. (And you KNOW they are!) I´m leaving the solutions to the dev team and ask people to refrain from posting balancing suggestions in this topic, just let me know if you think the game´s unbalanced.
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Comments

  • PugsleyPugsley Join Date: 2002-07-03 Member: 876Members
    I prefare aliens myself, but will play marines if needed.
    ANd yes i strongly agree that aliens win far too foten, marines only hope in public game is to have a good comm AND the aliens have a stupid gorge. If marines stood a better chance it would add a lot of challenge to the game, because currently marines have 8minutes (or less...) to secure 2 hives before fades arrive, and since aliens get fades real quick (with a half decent gorge) and marines still with LA LMG, its very hard for marines to build up a base expand and get good weapons.
  • Speed_2_DaveSpeed_2_Dave Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8788Members
    I just played 3 times as aliens, explained how to counter a marine rush, got ignored and lost 2 games straight (we won the first won via a fluke I believe)

    I can't wait for the comm to not know where the hives are.. but you can still listen for resource nodes, hope Flayra thought of that...
  • LegionnairedLegionnaired Join Date: 2002-04-30 Member: 552Members, Constellation
    I think part of the problem is that the marines usually take one hive, and then push unsuccessfully for the next, allowing fades in, without teching up first.

    If the marines grap one hive, tech to HMG's and HA, and then fight the fades, they win, plain and simple.

    Of course, very few comms want to stop to tech up to heavy weapons.

    You cannot figt fades with LMG/LA, you need HMG's at least.
  • ObsidionObsidion Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 8997Members
    I completely agree with you. I've found that the Aliens have been winning 9 times out of 10 very often these days. That whole if you have a good commander argument is garbage to me. Why must the Marines have an excellent commander, while the Aliens can still come on top even with a terrible gorge? 9 times out of 10 a good commanded Marines team will lose against an Alien team with good teamwork. What I'm saying is being reflected on NS servers each day, just check the logs it's quite apparant. And with all this, every patch I'm seeing is just nerfing the Marines more and more. And you know why this is happening? Because most players have opted to play as Alien more times than none, and thus we see so many complaints for more nerfs made to Marines, than vica versa. I wish the dev team hadn't given in to the complaints of the numerous Alien players, because it really has ruined the game.

    I like NS, always have, but with each patch I see the Marine class fade more and more way into appeal by most players. I'm going to take a break from NS for a while, until I see a game more balanced, and not so many Marine nerfs.
  • uranium_235uranium_235 Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9478Banned
    I used to love marines...

    <b>Used</b> to... there's a reason I don't anymore.
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    Sucky aliens beats sucky marines.
    Good marines beats good aliens.

    Most players suck. Ergo, aliens usually win.
  • WindelkronWindelkron Join Date: 2002-04-11 Member: 419Members
    who cares if the aliens win more? its so fulfilling to win a game as alien, especially if you're the gorge (I'm always the gorge). Losing is fun as a marine too, if acid rocket is nerfed (please). And, if there are some features that improve the commander interface, losing won't be a frustration and rather an aloof, horrific visage of <b>DEATH!</b> AHAHAH.. sorry.
  • ShuflYShuflY Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8760Members
    Well, I feel that marines were too strong in 1.03, but that is only because they can control the game very early if they have a good commander and a few players who listen to him. I haven't played 1.04 enough to comment on how the new balance is, but I think making it slightly harder for the marines is a good thing. In 1.03, it is just way too easy, I never lose a game if I am commanding.

    Like I said, I need to get some more time in with 1.04, but all these obsticals seem small for a good player to overcome. These balance changes will only hurt inexperianced players, as far as I can tell.
  • XpanderXpander Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2535Members
    I'm sorry, but I've been seeing a ton of marine wins lately. These are done through phase rushes, first hive rushes, siege bases, and even the occasional jetpack/HA teamwork beatdown. Meanwhile, the Kharaa have been getting sloppy, not using as much teamwork, and getting blindsided by marines that they've blatently underestimated.

    As for a team that has a crappy gorge pulling off wins? Yeah, it's called playing against horribly incompetent commanders and or marines. I'm sorry, but I've been reamed to death by way too many crappy gorges to agree with that comment. Gorge suck? Then you better have some damn skulk shock troopers on your team to save your **obscenity**.

    I've seen many short games and quite a few deadlocks between excellent marines AND Kharaa teams...with quite varied results throughout. The game isn't unbalanced, it just needs some tweaking.
  • WraithOfDarkWraithOfDark Join Date: 2002-10-01 Member: 1393Members
    I saw very, very few marine wins before file consistency started blocking me from all the servers (stupid damned bug, my files are perfect).
    I only ever play the marines If I have to or if I am on the server with a group of friends who I know and trust will follow orders.

    Long story short:
    aliens = whooweee kickbutt
    marines = hahahaha...run girly man! ARGH AN ALIEN!
  • JasperJasper Join Date: 2002-04-08 Member: 390Members
    I dont know I have killed 2 fades bunny hopping and what not .....with my lmg, guns are good.... but i now play aliens why <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> are all nooby
  • KitsuneKitsune Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7843Members
    It really boils down to which side is on the ball. One big screw-up on either side will lose them the game. Gorges screwing around and not getting a second hive up and secure quickly = lose. Commander screwing around and not getting a hive or keeping pressure up on the aliens = lose. Either side being full of Rambos who all run out and get constantly killed = lose. From my observations, the win/lose ratio is approaching 50/50 for each side now, and most times the loss is from one of those three factors above. The fight between two good teams tends to go on for well over an hour as hives change hands. If one team or the other isn't performing well, the game tends to end with the second hive; either the Fades are out and there's no HMG or HA to stop them, or the aliens have been boxed into one hive and are being sieged.
  • AgentOrangeAgentOrange Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9244Members
    There seem to be billions of posts talking about "Marines win 90% of games" and billions of posts saying "Aliens win 90% of games". Maybe it's just me but I've noticed that it seems to be pretty balanced, at least on servers that I play on.

    I agree with Kitsune that

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It really boils down to which side is on the ball. One big screw-up on either side will lose them the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    One weak player on either side can have a huge role in the upset of the game.
  • TheHornetTheHornet Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1776Members, Constellation
    i think the aliens have a slight newb advantage over the marines. As in any one can pick up the game and play and aliens and do some major damage. But i believe thats how its supoose to be, as aliens were made to be bigger stronger faster and only lacking the organized team work that marines can gain. I've played alot of games were marines have won, but they have to be good shooters and work together. Aliens on the other hand dont have to work together perfectaly to win.
  • skulkswerenerfedskulkswerenerfed Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10633Members
    right now aliens are too weak, marines can still LMG rush and instawin everytime
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--skulkswerenerfed+Dec 24 2002, 10:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (skulkswerenerfed @ Dec 24 2002, 10:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->right now aliens are too weak, marines can still LMG rush and instawin everytime<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Thats more of the cause that people REFUSE to use anything but Def in the start... if you KNOW theyre going to rush, get cloaking or silence and bite their arses off.
  • AldoNSAldoNS Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9404Members
    Game should be funny at all technological levels. Rushing is not funny. If the only way to win for the marines is to perform a rush, it means the game is not well balanced. I cannot find a solution to this yet but it is true that against fades there is not much to do unless you have a strong economic power to give all marines heavy armour and heavy weapons.

    Bye.
  • QuestionQuestion Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9180Members
    The probelm i see is that...

    1.Too many n00bs on marines.Due to auto help.

    2.1 marine refusing to obey orders weakens the marine team significantly,1 alien refusing to work together with the rest doesnt.Unfornately at least 2 people on marines ALWAYS refuse to obey orders,which kinda tilts the scale towards the aliens.

    3.If the marine commander sucks,oops,you lose unless the aliens suck too.If your gorg sucks,you can at least get another one,albiet,you get res slower but you have a chance.

    4.By the time you realise comm sucks,it is too late.Damage done.Not true with aliens.

    5.It is far easier to get fades than get Hmg/ha for an entire team.

    6.If server lags,marines are at a disadvantage.Try hitting skulks when lagging.Extremely hard to do.

    7.Certain maps also have things in favour for the aliens and same with marines.

    P.S.People who rush need to stop playing warcraft,red alert and starcraft where you HAVE to rush to win.
  • XCanXCan Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5904Members, Constellation
    I think the marines are kinda strange balanced. If the marines have a bad commander they're veryveryveryvERY VERY VERY VERY VERY..... etcetc weak. But if they have an outstanding commander they suddenly get soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much stronger, that means on par with the aliens. Perhaps one could introduce a help computer to the comm which would help the bad comm do the right thing?
  • AcheronAcheron Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8489Members
    It all just boils down to:

    a) Your statement is not entirely true (anyone can come on here and say "THIS RACE ALWAYS WINS! I SEE IT EVERY DAY!").

    b) You can't analyze game balance just by pubbing.

    c) There are always tons more newbs/griefers/jackasses from CS (not to say that all CS players are jackasses) on marines than on kharaa. Strange but true.
  • kaxmankaxman Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4149Members
    The problem with balance, as far as Natural Selection goes, is that the marines NEED a good CC to stand a chance, and the aliens NEED good teamwork to stand a chance. If either team is missing this, while the other has it, the game will be a painful slaughter. I've seen (as I'm sure many of you have seen) matches where there was a so-so CC in the chair and a pretty good team up against them drag on for ages, with control shifting back and forth, etc etc. These games are ever so much more fun than the usual quick games. Now, the problem I generally see occurring in 1.03 is the ripe-smelling cheeze that gets pulled by the marines over and over (and over...and over) again in any pub where the marines can field either a good CC or just one who's memorized what he's supposed to do. And what he does is one a few pretty annoying, downright cheezy in my eyes, plots. We all know what they are. My personal favorite (in a not-favorite kind of way...) is the flying ninja welder goons. Oh isn't it fun to watch the gorge and his O towers desperately trying to kill a guy that's standing on top of a hive puttering away with his welder while he gets medpacks rained on his head in a never-ending stream. Anyway, the way it seems to me, and I do not of course discount the possibility that I may be entirely wrong, is that these new changes are pretty much all good. I may be a bit biased, since the servers I play on generally have a significant population of people who are diametrically opposite the side of the scale bearing the label "Suck", but I think the point stands. Marines in 1.03 are powered just right, but unfortunately whenver I play as alien, after I hear the first siege, I never see another marine. Why? Because all they have to do is cower behind their structures. Christ those damn things are downright awful. I think this siege nerf is important because I hate to see reliance on a structure to win over and over. It goes something like this: Siege built. Area henceforth defended against any incursion of type "Structure". Build a bundle of turrets and you can leave. I really really like the idea that the marines might actually have to show their faces in order to take an area.

    I'd also like to register the following: The area effect of the siege cannon is stupid. Not for realistic reasons, but for game balance ones. The farking explosion is half the size of the moon, and seems to very effectively kill anything anywhere near it. My special favorite is entering an empty (of EVERYTHING) hive room via some lesser-used roads, taking a quick look around and seeing no one, dropping a res tower, and exploding. How painfully retarded. We're talking short-bus, tinted window retarded here. There is no way in hell any marine unit, or their commander, or God himself could have known that that structure had been built. Not to mention the astonishing capacity for that siege to track 76 degrees in 35 milliseconds. The gun doesn't LOOK that light. Anyway, the end result is a zero-effort win against an invisible target. So invisible, in fact, that I can guarantee none of the marines in proximity to the cannon probably had any clue that anything was going on. As I said, stupid. Thankfully I won't have to author long-winded and pointless rants about this stupid gun in the future. At least, I hope. If I see a marine knifing the hive while it gets sieged, and I try to attack him, and I get killed by the siege's area effect, and the marine doesn't, I swear upon all that could be good about this game, I will hunt you down Flayra, I will hunt you down and I will <i>smack</i> you.

    Other than that, I pretty much just want to see people shut the holy hell up. This game is, as far as I can discern, pretty balanced when it comes to individual troops abilities. I can think of some changes that could and probably should be made in various places (like everyone's favorite structure, the sensory chamber), but for the most part each race has its strengths and its weaknesses and when played to those respective strengths each has the capability to succeed. Except for the game-breaking siege.

    I also encourage the purchasing of upgrades as Terran. It's the gift that keeps on giving. And I just can't see it being too expensive. Can't remember the exact number, but a third level upgrade costs roughly the same as outfitting one HA/HMG trooper. Seems like buying something once that confers a comfortable bonus to everyone for free is a better buy. The LMG can be quite deadly in the hands of someone with good aim when it is fully upgraded.

    ---

    I'd also like to make a short digression here, in response to a pointless and poorly informed, hell, practically idiotic post by some twit in regards to the concept of aiming. Good sir, should you read this, I can most definitely assure you that there is oodles more to aiming that just <i>moving the mouse</i>. <b>Oodles</b>. If you aren't hitting anything, its because your aim sucks. Period.

    Merry Christmas Eve. And I've been up far too long. And we'll see soon, any which way, once the patch hits mainstream.
  • KulKul Join Date: 2002-12-19 Member: 11123Members
    i think a good commander does make a huge difference and it's vital for the game to be balanced. do the testers \ people who make the balancing decisions play with bad commanders? probably not.

    i also agree with other posts that most noobs play marines which is frustrating. also i find that most good players play aliens more often (dont know why, maybe they dont like taking orders).

    lastly i think marines have to alter their strategies when faced with the fade base siege that inevetiably occurs. it's not all over at this point. a few marines with welders and some turrets and ha can hold out for a long time against fades, the rest should be counterattacking hives.
  • kaxmankaxman Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4149Members
    Kul you're absolutely right, and I also don't think that good players will continue to play alien indefinitely. I personally know quite a few very good players that enjoy the structure of marine combat. I also prefer alien, more because it is a unique experience (show me a game where my eye is inside my mouth and I get to see big teeth go chomp-chomp...) than for any other reason. I like both sides, but, as a good player it is partly the draw of the new and the repulsion derived from the knowledge that there is a much greater chance I will have to deal with some serious nubbage/lameness as marine. I'll even comm on occasion, but very very rarely, again, because I can be pretty sure of having to put up with some seriously annoying people, and I'm playing to have fun, not to be bitched at by some jerk because I won't give him his precious HMG/JP/whatever...
  • Naughty_BremboNaughty_Brembo Join Date: 2002-05-30 Member: 701Members
    Thank you all for your input. I´d just like to add a few comments:

    Acheron: Exactly, I´m ONLY analyzing pub play, not overall game balance. I thought that point was very clearly stated in my original post.

    Furthermore: Even if the marines can "easily" win by phase rushing/HMG push, this does NOT mean the game is perfectly balanced. It only means that the balance "start-game" is different from balance "mid-game". Sure, the marines have the edge (if they don´t build stuff!) in the first minutes, but when the fades show up the tables are turned...

    again, thx all for replying although quite a few turned out to be biased alien players.

    /NB
  • WykedWyked Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9158Members
    sure aliens win more on pub servers.. more new players go marines due to autohelp.. if neither team has good teamwork the aliens are at a distict advantage, and without a quick and able commander the aliens are at a distinct advantage..

    thats three +'s to the aliens with nothing for the marines.. on the other hand, outside of the first two weeks this game came public, i have NEVER lost a game as a commander, and sometimes (by sometimes i mean when i have marines that actually communicate, function in a team, and use combinations of weapons while in groups, like 2HA HMG, 1 HA GL and 2 LA/JP LMG rushers) when i sit in the chair it seems WAY too easy for marines.
  • captmorgancaptmorgan Join Date: 2002-12-23 Member: 11432Members
    I havent lost in weeks as comm, so I dont know about this "aliens are to strong" thing.

    I think the changes to the infantry portal and phase cost are fine, the phase hp change isn't needed, and I think they will realize that soon enough, and change. The easiest way to beat phase rushes is with celerety or silence, but that means getting movement first, and you are called a noob as a gorge if you do that.

    I dont think the game is totally out of balance now, the biggest imbalance is skill, and the team with more experienced players always wins.

    As far as the whole "can't beat fades with lmg/la" thats a crock. The noobs always complain about fades, as they dont know how to beat them..

    1/1 armor/weapon upgrades are more then enough to combat fades, with lmg/la you just cannot let them run away and heal, but 95% of players are just happy to see the fades run away, and take that as a victory. They are to dumb to realize the fade is just running away to heal, and you will see him again soon enough. Chase the fade down even to your own death, but dont let him just run away a few steps and heal, kill him. it's not like you dont respawn or anything, go kill him.. The biggest mistake people make is thinking fades can be pushed back with sentries, that is not true. Fades eat sentries for breakfast,lunch and dinner. Marines kill fades, not sentries, end of story.
  • Naughty_BremboNaughty_Brembo Join Date: 2002-05-30 Member: 701Members
    captmorgan and wyked: I wish I played on servers where there are commanders of your *reputed* skill.

    captmorgan: I know how to frag them fades, just hunt their slimy butts down a hallway...the problem is 90% of marine players do not. Hence, games tend to get unbalanced IN REALITY, regardless of the THEORETICAL BALANCE where all marines are always considered veterans...

    /NB
  • NyogthaNyogtha Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8912Members
    I don't mind seeing balance topics often, last time i checked this are discussionboards
    and there are lots of things that can be said about this topic.

    That being said, I generally play on two servers, going alien 99% of the time, and believe it or not,
    on one server its always garantueed alien victory, but on the other server I can be just as sure the marines are going to cram us in a corner within minutes. Both are public.
    Whats causing this? I really have no clue.
    Its easy to see the marines have to work harder to get there, but when they do, its devastating.
    Well commanded and teamed-up marines are a scary sight indeed.

    I just hope the devs let the people play for some time and leave the balance fixes for what they are, till the people really know what makes this game tick.
    Got the feeling too many come screaming to the boards when they have just lost and those laments are being heard. Two good teams can create great matches.
  • DoombringerDoombringer Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8679Members, Constellation
    Fades... the answer is simple: charge them. Chase them as they retreat, or get in their face, guns blazing, as they move towards you. Nine times out of ten, you'll do a lot of damage to that Fade before he claws you to death, especially if you have any upgrades.

    Kinda like the last charge of King Theoden. You've got nothing to lose, and everything to gain. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • soapdudesoapdude Join Date: 2002-12-16 Member: 10893Members
    I'm too lazy to read all the posts so I'll just say what I need to say. When I play on the c|E server aliens lose almost 95% of the time so I think it just depends on who is on each team.
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