In NS1, Armor 1 would be the first choice. Skulks took 3 bites to kill a marine by default, however, at armor 0 if the skulk parasited the marine, it was only 2 bites afterwards. Armor 1 would prevent the marine from dying in 2 bites under any circumstance except if he had already lost his armor from an earlier conflict.
In NS2, I believe parasited marines at full armor still take 3 bites to kill even with armor 0 (they should be left with somewhere around 2-5 health from a parasite and 2 direct bites) I think however the glancing blows begin to play much more effect in NS2... where as 1 glancing blow and 2 direct hits will kill an A0 marine, but it requires 3 direct hits at A1, and 3 direct hits and 1 glancing blow at A2.
Now if the damn NS wiki would load up I could compare W0 to W1. My suspicion is that people lean more towards weapons because the higher weapons upgrades feel more advantageous than the higher armor upgrades...
Purely by feel, from trying both, I personally still prefer armor 1, W1-3, a2-3 as my upgrade path.
<!--quoteo(post=2018074:date=Nov 10 2012, 09:49 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 10 2012, 09:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018074"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS2, I believe parasited marines at full armor still take 3 bites to kill even with armor 0 (they should be left with somewhere around 2-5 health from a parasite and 2 direct bites)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it still takes 2 full bites and 1 parasite
100 health + 2x30 armor = 160 effective health = 2x75 (two bites) +10 (1 parasite)
<!--quoteo(post=2018087:date=Nov 10 2012, 02:39 AM:name=Rowen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rowen @ Nov 10 2012, 02:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, it still takes 2 full bites and 1 parasite
100 health + 2x30 armor = 160 effective health = 2x75 (two bites) +10 (1 parasite)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS1 and NS2 is the same. It's just that there is GLANCING bite damage that does 25 or 50 damage, which means if you miss the full damage 75 bite, you will need more bites.
Having commanded high level competitive ns1 i always go on pubs either it be ns1 or ns2
A1 W1 W2 W3 A2 A3
The reason is weapon upgrades win games not armor. If some1 gets an early onos or fade you have w2 to kill them. Pubbers might only get 1 clip off before they die, but that one clip could kill that lifeform. I hate it when comms get shotguns,gls,flamethrowers or anything else first, 99% of the time you will lose the game.
This build order i use when comming pubs never fails:
A1 -> 2nd ip / w1 -> w2 (obs) -> Shotguns / PG -> W3 -> AA -> A2 -> 2nd CC / Proto -> Jps -> A3 (NO SENTRIES)
(Also mines,,welders cost nothing really so get them when u want, just not at the start before A1 is researching)
in ns1&2, it goes from 2.1 bite to 3 bites. in ns2, staying alive = $$$. although money is shared among different ones who does not die, it is better to have the money distrubuted more evenly, i.e. all those exos and gears come up all at once together, although this is almost theoretical
Armor 1 because weapon 1 doesn't give you much of an edge compared to armor 1 vs skulks.
Skulk HP 70 + armor 2*10 -> 90 effective hp 10 dmg hit = 9 hits for a skulk (10x9) 11 dmg hit (W1) = 9 hits for a skulk (11*9, 9 damage "overkill")
W1 does help against higher lifeforms and buildings obviously, so if you are going for hive/harvester harassment or so it might be a better choice. It should follow soon after A1 anyway
for example, if you want to snipe harvesters in early game to delay onos rush strategy, W1 seems like a more worthwhile choice.
also, in pub servers there's the obvious fact that only 1/100 skulks use parasite, so the only advantage of early A1 is useless.
i think it's important to note that with or without W1, a skulk without carapace still requires 9 hits to kill. it's only with carapace that the number of shots required to kill a skulk is reduced by 1 per weapon upgrade. that doesn't mean it's not viable, because of course you get faster W2/3 and weapon upgrades scale far better with shotgun.
I sometimes like early fast armor upgrades, even heading towards A3 before even starting W1.
It's a nightmare for skulks to kill a3 marines. It takes ages and any decend rine player will nuke stock skulks out of the ground very fast. Going W1 as a first upgrade is a total waste, there is nothing really to counter, cara on skulks... well... tbh, it's totally meh. I'm big fan of regen for skulks, it makes them way more viable in my opinion, though it depends on playstyle, as I'm not up your face guy, I prefer to jump out bite once or twice and hide to regen, then move out with full hp on them again.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exos scale with Armor but not with Weapon, so obviously Armor is the better choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a pub, where you can go 20-0 just standing outside their base - I find being ammo effeciant is more important. But this is against noobs so it does not matter.
Against good skulks that will get a drop on you, or will have extra buddies with them, the Armor 1 is great for the extra bites; but it is only useful for that first encounter, and unless you're carrying around welders at the same time you got your first armor upgrade, it is no longer useful. And good marines stay on the field for a very long time.
Weapons 1 is always good however.
I think the real answer is - it depends on your players. There's no obvious choice for every game. I personally prefer weapons 1 first, because I don't typically put myself into a position to get hit, unless I choose that death is an acceptable risk.
But I would have wanted armor up for when fades and lerks come around.
This is how armor works in NS. Armor 0 let's you survive 3 bites, unless you have been parasited, in which case you can survive 2. Upon getting armor 1 you can survive 3 bites even when parasited, and if you are bitten once you can receive a medpack and will still be able to survive 3 bites after being medpacked (unlike armor 0). With armor 0, receiving a medpack will only allow you to survive 2 bites even with full HP. So, armor 1 isn't so much about taking more bites as it is about increasing the effectiveness of medpacking without the need for healing armor (Which allows you to take more bites on the field away from armories [where you should be]).
This whole idea of being able to receive medpacks to continue to survive 3 bites (Without the need for going back for more armor) scales with the level of armor you have until you reach armor 3. Armor 3 is the only armor level that allows you to take 4 bites. So, getting armor upgrades is useless until armor 3, unless your commander is doing his job and dropping medpacks (A rare sight in a pub). Nothing angers me more than a commander who gets armor 1 and 2 first and never drops a single medpack. I am still dying in 3 bites either way....
In NS2, armories heal your armor, so getting armor 1 as a first upgrade is redundant. You can always run back to an armory to get full armor and survive as many bites as if you had armor 2, even when you are on armor 0. This is why armories have broken upgrades in NS2 (Off topic). Weapons 1 is a much more effective upgrade due to armories in NS2. Armories also heal nearly twice as fast in NS2 than in NS1... which is why armor was much more important in NS1.
I hope this clears things up for people. The "standard" tech path in NS2 is weapons then armor, alternating up to level 3. Always weapons first, then armor, then weapons, then armor, etc.
Most of the replies assume that the upgrades are rolling in which, in the games current state, is probably a safe assumption to make. However it is worth noting that skulks are not the only things to be considered when deciding on armour or guns, and quite often it is not the res cost that is important, but the upgrade time. If the aliens are rushing a 5-6 minute Onos, armour 1 and even armour 2 will do almost nothing for you. Firstly because, as far as I am aware, the only armour level that does anything meaningful against an Onos gore is level 3, and secondly because the primary hindrance to an Onos is not killing the marines themselves, but switching from one marine to the next. In such a case, you would be better off streamlining your weapon upgrades.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2018273:date=Nov 10 2012, 01:31 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Nov 10 2012, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exos scale with Armor but not with Weapon, so obviously Armor is the better choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Still confusing though, cause in an EXO you do see the weapons upgrade icons. Maybe they need to have an indicator that EXOs do not get attackpower++ :P
<!--quoteo(post=2018322:date=Nov 10 2012, 09:30 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 10 2012, 09:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a1 first if going shotties. w1 if mines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, getting armor 1 is still redundant even with shotguns. Besides, getting level 2 shotguns early will make you effective vs everything in the game. Armor 1 is only essential once fades are out because it keeps you from getting 2 shot by fades, and 1 gored by onos.
Getting it before fades is a waste of res and time spent towards weapons which will be more effective vs lifeforms. This meta aspect is applied even when getting shotguns first. Always weapons 1, armor 1, or weapons 2 instead of armor 1. Those are really the only options I see that would be viable.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2018350:date=Nov 10 2012, 02:58 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 10 2012, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018350"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->maybe with perfect players, but i'm a pub baddy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed, I find that staying power is more important then firepower early game.
I must be bizarre. I usually run W1 > W2 > A1. However if the aliens are controlling more RTs than expected I will push up A1 to make sure we have it for when fades pop. This is just what I use as a standard marine pub build though.
edit: I do tend to be more aggressive with my medpacking than most comms though.
Wow... you guys realize that armor 2 still lets you take as much damage as armor 0 right? Rofl... I laid it out pretty clearly earlier. Getting armor doesn't give you any more "staying power" whatever that is :-P. It just allows you to get medpacks in the field and still be effective without getting 2 bit to death. Which yes, is powerful if a competent commander is babysitting you constantly... but let's be realistic.
You still take 3 bites until armor 3... to be honest armor 1 is enough to prevent getting fade spammed early (Only armor 3 will effect fade swipe after armor 1), and it's all you really need until late game (wherever that is in this crazy 2nd hive onos world).
Weapons upgrades are multitudes better in NS2 due to armories, and for various other reasons... one of which is that all NS2 weapons have substantially less spread, so you are rewarded with even more bullets hitting targets and doing damage. I'd honestly prefer a little more spread on the LMG, and definitely on the shotgun as well (But increase of fire rate for shotgun).
But in no circumstance is armor ever a better upgrade unless you are like 10 mins behind the aliens and a fade comes out on the field when you didn't have any upgrades yet.
i feel that a1 is pretty decent because it no longer makes you have to medpack your parasited marines, which can be a real res drain. this applies mainly to shotties since a para-2bite shotty is much weaker than a shotty you don't have to constantly babysit.
Armour 1 is useless almost all the time in pubs because nobody parasites before biteing. It only effects glancing bites and parasite, you will still die in 3 bites to a skulk regardless. However, w1 shotguns are better by a nice increment as they actually have a good chance of 1-shotting skulks because it takes less pellets so you don't get ######ed by spread as much. The biggest difference though is fades taking one less shot to kill. Personally I never use shotguns unless w1 is researched, you are more likely to die in close range if you miss even once and it's a waste of resources when you do. Always w1 first.
<!--quoteo(post=2018474:date=Nov 10 2012, 12:08 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 10 2012, 12:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018474"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i feel that a1 is pretty decent because it no longer makes you have to medpack your parasited marines, which can be a real res drain. this applies mainly to shotties since a para-2bite shotty is much weaker than a shotty you don't have to constantly babysit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That theory is correct, but only really applicable to games where the aliens possess any real measure of skill and game knowledge. Which is pretty much restricted to competitive matches between established teams... haha.
Parasite in scrims is super powerful, especially since commanders are wary about wasting res on marines in early game. It's not uncommon to see a comm drop a forward armory in matches (if the room its in is very marine sided... like computer lab). The armory almost always pays for itself.
I see that as a good tradeoff instead of armor 1 in many cases, but it's all situational.
Comments
survival time + > killtime -
In NS2, I believe parasited marines at full armor still take 3 bites to kill even with armor 0 (they should be left with somewhere around 2-5 health from a parasite and 2 direct bites) I think however the glancing blows begin to play much more effect in NS2... where as 1 glancing blow and 2 direct hits will kill an A0 marine, but it requires 3 direct hits at A1, and 3 direct hits and 1 glancing blow at A2.
Now if the damn NS wiki would load up I could compare W0 to W1. My suspicion is that people lean more towards weapons because the higher weapons upgrades feel more advantageous than the higher armor upgrades...
Purely by feel, from trying both, I personally still prefer armor 1, W1-3, a2-3 as my upgrade path.
Weapons 1 will help kill expensive enemy lifeforms.
survival time + > killtime -<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
survival time = killtime
No, it still takes 2 full bites and 1 parasite
100 health + 2x30 armor = 160 effective health = 2x75 (two bites) +10 (1 parasite)
100 health + 2x30 armor = 160 effective health = 2x75 (two bites) +10 (1 parasite)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+
the same like NS1
But in most cases A1 yea.
A1
W1
W2
W3
A2
A3
The reason is weapon upgrades win games not armor. If some1 gets an early onos or fade you have w2 to kill them. Pubbers might only get 1 clip off before they die, but that one clip could kill that lifeform. I hate it when comms get shotguns,gls,flamethrowers or anything else first, 99% of the time you will lose the game.
This build order i use when comming pubs never fails:
A1 -> 2nd ip / w1 -> w2 (obs) -> Shotguns / PG -> W3 -> AA -> A2 -> 2nd CC / Proto -> Jps -> A3 (NO SENTRIES)
(Also mines,,welders cost nothing really so get them when u want, just not at the start before A1 is researching)
On 4 nodes (including base) this will work.
in ns1&2, it goes from 2.1 bite to 3 bites. in ns2, staying alive = $$$. although money is shared among different ones who does not die, it is better to have the money distrubuted more evenly, i.e. all those exos and gears come up all at once together, although this is almost theoretical
Skulk HP 70 + armor 2*10 -> 90 effective hp
10 dmg hit = 9 hits for a skulk (10x9)
11 dmg hit (W1) = 9 hits for a skulk (11*9, 9 damage "overkill")
W1 does help against higher lifeforms and buildings obviously, so if you are going for hive/harvester harassment or so it might be a better choice. It should follow soon after A1 anyway
for example, if you want to snipe harvesters in early game to delay onos rush strategy, W1 seems like a more worthwhile choice.
also, in pub servers there's the obvious fact that only 1/100 skulks use parasite, so the only advantage of early A1 is useless.
i think it's important to note that with or without W1, a skulk without carapace still requires 9 hits to kill. it's only with carapace that the number of shots required to kill a skulk is reduced by 1 per weapon upgrade. that doesn't mean it's not viable, because of course you get faster W2/3 and weapon upgrades scale far better with shotgun.
It's a nightmare for skulks to kill a3 marines. It takes ages and any decend rine player will nuke stock skulks out of the ground very fast.
Going W1 as a first upgrade is a total waste, there is nothing really to counter, cara on skulks... well... tbh, it's totally meh. I'm big fan of regen for skulks, it makes them way more viable in my opinion, though it depends on playstyle, as I'm not up your face guy, I prefer to jump out bite once or twice and hide to regen, then move out with full hp on them again.
So,
Armor > Weapons all the time for early game.
poor bites which would still 3bite a0 end up 4biting a1 e.g. 50, 50, 75, bite 4. It's not all about preventing parasite now adays.
Your team can aim = A1 followed by W1,W2,W3
Get A2 if you see a fade and shotguns as soon as you have the free 20 res open
Your team can't aim = W1 first
Buy another IP, drop sentries, and rush exo with A3 and MAC support
QFT
Against good skulks that will get a drop on you, or will have extra buddies with them, the Armor 1 is great for the extra bites; but it is only useful for that first encounter, and unless you're carrying around welders at the same time you got your first armor upgrade, it is no longer useful. And good marines stay on the field for a very long time.
Weapons 1 is always good however.
I think the real answer is - it depends on your players. There's no obvious choice for every game. I personally prefer weapons 1 first, because I don't typically put myself into a position to get hit, unless I choose that death is an acceptable risk.
But I would have wanted armor up for when fades and lerks come around.
This whole idea of being able to receive medpacks to continue to survive 3 bites (Without the need for going back for more armor) scales with the level of armor you have until you reach armor 3. Armor 3 is the only armor level that allows you to take 4 bites. So, getting armor upgrades is useless until armor 3, unless your commander is doing his job and dropping medpacks (A rare sight in a pub). Nothing angers me more than a commander who gets armor 1 and 2 first and never drops a single medpack. I am still dying in 3 bites either way....
In NS2, armories heal your armor, so getting armor 1 as a first upgrade is redundant. You can always run back to an armory to get full armor and survive as many bites as if you had armor 2, even when you are on armor 0. This is why armories have broken upgrades in NS2 (Off topic). Weapons 1 is a much more effective upgrade due to armories in NS2. Armories also heal nearly twice as fast in NS2 than in NS1... which is why armor was much more important in NS1.
I hope this clears things up for people. The "standard" tech path in NS2 is weapons then armor, alternating up to level 3. Always weapons first, then armor, then weapons, then armor, etc.
Still confusing though, cause in an EXO you do see the weapons upgrade icons. Maybe they need to have an indicator that EXOs do not get attackpower++ :P
I disagree, getting armor 1 is still redundant even with shotguns. Besides, getting level 2 shotguns early will make you effective vs everything in the game. Armor 1 is only essential once fades are out because it keeps you from getting 2 shot by fades, and 1 gored by onos.
Getting it before fades is a waste of res and time spent towards weapons which will be more effective vs lifeforms. This meta aspect is applied even when getting shotguns first. Always weapons 1, armor 1, or weapons 2 instead of armor 1. Those are really the only options I see that would be viable.
Indeed, I find that staying power is more important then firepower early game.
edit: I do tend to be more aggressive with my medpacking than most comms though.
You still take 3 bites until armor 3... to be honest armor 1 is enough to prevent getting fade spammed early (Only armor 3 will effect fade swipe after armor 1), and it's all you really need until late game (wherever that is in this crazy 2nd hive onos world).
Weapons upgrades are multitudes better in NS2 due to armories, and for various other reasons... one of which is that all NS2 weapons have substantially less spread, so you are rewarded with even more bullets hitting targets and doing damage. I'd honestly prefer a little more spread on the LMG, and definitely on the shotgun as well (But increase of fire rate for shotgun).
But in no circumstance is armor ever a better upgrade unless you are like 10 mins behind the aliens and a fade comes out on the field when you didn't have any upgrades yet.
That theory is correct, but only really applicable to games where the aliens possess any real measure of skill and game knowledge. Which is pretty much restricted to competitive matches between established teams... haha.
Parasite in scrims is super powerful, especially since commanders are wary about wasting res on marines in early game. It's not uncommon to see a comm drop a forward armory in matches (if the room its in is very marine sided... like computer lab). The armory almost always pays for itself.
I see that as a good tradeoff instead of armor 1 in many cases, but it's all situational.
If you have scrubs who can't hit the backside of a barn = A1