Skulk gameplay is damaging NS2
Argathor
Join Date: 2011-07-18 Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
Join Date: 2011-07-18 Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
I absolutely love NS2 and the gameplay can be incredibly fun / exciting, especially in small organised teams. However I am frequently witnessing a serious issue which effects general casual gameplay and that I believe will eventually push people away from NS2.
This is underpinned by the fact that, psychologically, humans will do more to avoid pain/frustration than they will to gain pleasure/fun. This makes removing annoyance/frustrations/etc from gameplay very important.
Now this is a much bigger problem than just Skulks, but they are symptom of this that most players come into contact with. You can see the evidence of this issue frequently in public games and 100% in high level competitive play (like the ESL final). Aliens, even when holding their own or winning, appear to be losing with most of the team dieing much more than they get kills. This has two negative and confusing impacts:
1) Players watching competitive matches find it difficult to analyse who is winning/losing. I think it was Zeikko who, while being interviewed during the ESL final, stressed how close the matches all were and that a few engagements could swing them either way, but this is definately not obviously visible to most players. It looks much more like Aliens are bottled into a corner and losing all the time.
2) Alien players spend most of their game time as a Skulk, which is (when against equally skilled opponents) weaker than its marine counterpart (even without upgrades). This causes the majority of aliens to be killed much more than they get kills and then rely on Onos to bolster the team and hold the marines back.
I understand the gameplay for both teams is intentionally asymmetrical, but it is time to look at other options as it is not working. No-one plays games to feel like they are losing and with the abundant small frustrations in-game I feel forcing one team to feel like they are losing is only going to push people away. I think the lesson here is that the underlying gameplay needs to be symmetrical, so that it is far more obvious to players and spectators when they are winning/losing.
TL:DR - The underlying gameplay (base unit power, map control, presence, etc.) needs to be symmetrical, or players will be pushed away from the game by the higher frequency of frustration and annoyance playing aliens. If not this then at the very least Skulks need to be made to feel more powerful so that players feel they have more control over the game.
This is underpinned by the fact that, psychologically, humans will do more to avoid pain/frustration than they will to gain pleasure/fun. This makes removing annoyance/frustrations/etc from gameplay very important.
Now this is a much bigger problem than just Skulks, but they are symptom of this that most players come into contact with. You can see the evidence of this issue frequently in public games and 100% in high level competitive play (like the ESL final). Aliens, even when holding their own or winning, appear to be losing with most of the team dieing much more than they get kills. This has two negative and confusing impacts:
1) Players watching competitive matches find it difficult to analyse who is winning/losing. I think it was Zeikko who, while being interviewed during the ESL final, stressed how close the matches all were and that a few engagements could swing them either way, but this is definately not obviously visible to most players. It looks much more like Aliens are bottled into a corner and losing all the time.
2) Alien players spend most of their game time as a Skulk, which is (when against equally skilled opponents) weaker than its marine counterpart (even without upgrades). This causes the majority of aliens to be killed much more than they get kills and then rely on Onos to bolster the team and hold the marines back.
I understand the gameplay for both teams is intentionally asymmetrical, but it is time to look at other options as it is not working. No-one plays games to feel like they are losing and with the abundant small frustrations in-game I feel forcing one team to feel like they are losing is only going to push people away. I think the lesson here is that the underlying gameplay needs to be symmetrical, so that it is far more obvious to players and spectators when they are winning/losing.
TL:DR - The underlying gameplay (base unit power, map control, presence, etc.) needs to be symmetrical, or players will be pushed away from the game by the higher frequency of frustration and annoyance playing aliens. If not this then at the very least Skulks need to be made to feel more powerful so that players feel they have more control over the game.
Comments
the issue with skulk is that if you lose carapace or celerity then it becomes very difficult against upgraded marines. this situation will often snowball into a situation where you lose your second hive - losing leap. going against marines with shotguns and jetpacks without leap gives the marines soooooo much mileage and it becomes one-sided.
but i still don't see how this in itself is the problem. if alien is getting slaughtered 60% of the time, then the issue could be because it's too hard to defend your 3rd or 4th RT, your tech or your second hive - not necessarily because "skulk need to be as good as a marine in all circumstances!".
personally i think (from watching competitive matches/streams) that the biggest savior for marines when fighting against skulk is the medpack drop. there was barely a skulk vs marine encounter throughout the entire series last night which wasn't decided by medpack dropping.
i wasn't around during the beta, but i really don't like the medpack drop idea... specifically when it's spammed like the commander is just mashing his S key... but seeing how often it's used in competitive matches (even in games where alien win) it's quite apparent that it's essential for marines.
i have been toying with the idea of increasing res cost of medpack to 2, but it's just not even worth thinking about because in the current game medpack is the bread and butter.
Whereas the Marines are a far more relaxing experience for me. You have way more room for error and you can usually fix your mistakes before they snowball out of hand. I don't really know how to put it in a way that makes sense, but I definitely feel like the Marines can get to the same level of efficiency as the Aliens can with far less effort. When two teams are put against each other that are both equally focused, the Marines will almost always be on top.
I don't expect any major changes since we are not in beta anymore. I think the best thing to do right now is to teach and organize attacks with people. At least personally I'm trying to communicate more with my team in the future. I can only hope that new players have patience to learn and hang on.
I see <i>a lot</i> of matches where not a single skulk chooses a new life form until it's too late for them to make a big difference. They skulk on even after I've upgraded everything I can with two hives. I think that's because it's frustrating to die as a higher life form since they're so expensive compared to Marines. People have less of a problem buying a shotgun for 20 P.Res, but for some reason don't buy Lerks.
I also think it has to do with people not knowing when to upgrade. Some will go Fade/Lerk before Blink/Spores and die before realizing if they'd have waited two minutes they would have been a lot more effective.
Either way, it's not as bad as a newbie Marines team where they all save for Exo's and no one grabs a welder or jetpack. At least there's that.
Honestly i don't, i think you need to play more as a commander and acquire more knowledge about ressources managing to know when each team is in a critical position (it's not that obvious if you don't knos the game in-depth)
<!--quoteo(post=2019388:date=Nov 11 2012, 02:04 AM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Nov 11 2012, 02:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019388"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) Alien players spend most of their game time as a Skulk, which is (when against equally skilled opponents) weaker than its marine counterpart (even without upgrades). This causes the majority of aliens to be killed much more than they get kills and then rely on Onos to bolster the team and hold the marines back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's clearly not true, if you spend most of your time as a skulk that just means :
1. You keep dieing all the time as a skulk so you don't get any res, which means you should train more (wall jumping etc)
2. you're not correctly playing your evolved lifeforms ,aka dieing when you shouldn't (you can last forever with lifeforms such as lerks & gorge and still be efficient lategame)
3. it means you're saving for a fast onos and that you've won the game right after evolving, in which case, Goog Game brah.
You should just learn more about the game and play more instead of spending time on the forum :)
In NS2, you simply have to start realizing that K/D doesn't mean everything in this game. And that the outcome of certain engagements is much more important than personal glory. That can take some time, but when people play the game long enough, they will get it sooner or later.
Did you watch the ESL finals? Most of the alien team spent their time using a skulk, at least in those matches that were close. The only other lifeforms used on a regular basis was the onos (fast onos) and gorges when needed (mostly because of fast onos). Fades were mostly only used when aliens were able to get a tech or ressource advantage or were deperate and not able to get another onos. The only alien lifeform you can currently rely on is the onos. There is no use in going for anything else first.
Switching to a lerk or fade is very situational because against a good player even a fade dies within a few shots and in general marines do not run around alone. All alien lifeforms are very squishy <b>and</b> aren't easy to play, at least not as easy as using a shotgun. That forces even experienced players to stay skulks for a long time, whereas marines with armor and weapon upgrades are able to push more and more during the match and the aliens not being able to used counters, except going onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2019429:date=Nov 11 2012, 01:01 PM:name=Soulfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soulfighter @ Nov 11 2012, 01:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019429"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You should just learn more about the game and play more instead of spending time on the forum :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ladies and gentleman, we ha a pro. You should obey!
Are those units played by players? No. The second you have players performing that role things change.
This is part of why we have such a bland RTS element (the other part being it was always intended to be mainly an FPS), many RTS gameplay features/abilities/units, etc simply do not work well when it is actual players controlling the units (stuns/freezes/lockouts, etc).
So... basically change the entire game completely?
alien comm going the wrong tech path (shade?) = gg
marines going the wrong building first = ... oh wait just build the right one afterwards.. in fact just research all of them.
losing harvestor vs losing an extractor.. due to tight res control, aliens hurt more from a harvestor dying
Losing a shell/spur vs losing arms lab/proto type/adv armour.. upgrades dont need to be re-research
Losing a hive vs losing a CC, again no additional upgrades lost
Losing an advance lifeform vs losing a weapon... weapons can be picked up. jetpacks cost 10 to recover. (Exos DO cost a bit to recover... probaly why people think they suck)
Losing any lifeform
Marine spawn quicker and multiple IPS to cater for increase of players
Aliens can get egglocked
Aliens in marine base. Cannot spawn camp anymore, can try to chew the powernode/obs but marines can beacon
Marines in alien base. No beaconing of any kind . upgrades are in danger, can egg lock aliens
Losing a position in the map
if aliens lose a position.. doh, now theres a PG there
if marines lose a position, ... aliens can clog/hydra. Note any hydra/clog wall only effective if theres a gorge sitting there
skulk power is lacking, and i think any player with alot of hours in ns2 will tell you this. It's not about overall 50/50 balance as much as it is about fun - i think spawn waves are really hiding alot of ugly issues. They just don't scale as well as marine aim/movement. It isn't about "oh you need to ambush more" or be more "sneaky". Along with a big model size, movement and collision are subpar - especially the latter.
Example:
Skulk upgrade cost = 0 for the first upgrade you get from each tree (spur, veil, shell) - same as current system.
1 for a stacked upgrade in the same tree (you get carapace for free, then regen for 1 p res)
2 for an additional stacked upgrade if you already have a stacked upgrade ( so if you have both regen and cara, then getting adren on top of celerity would cost 2).
Now the pros would be that aliens would have a res sink starting from very early (as long as khamm gets 2 spurs/shells/veils etc.)
The cons would be that it's unintuitive and possibly unbalanced, but I would contest that the trade-offs in gained customizability for skulk players would be worth it.
For this system to work for other lifeforms, the pres costs would have to scale up accordingly, so for an onos, getting a stacked upgrade should probably start at 5 or something like that.
Indeed. The problem is that respawn time is too long and you do not gain personal resources when you are dead. This penalises skulks from doing their job which is denying area to marines. This is not a smart game play feature.
Ideally, skulks should get personal resources per kill, as before. A compromise might be obtaining personal resources when dead and respawning faster.
Also there's an expectation management problem. We can look at the starcraft model and see a zergling vs a zealot and know what to expect. Why doesn't that translate well to NS2?
I wonder if KDR, points and stats help or hinder those expectations. Personally, it doesn't bother me that my KDR is worse as a skulk than as a marine. I've come to peace with it.
Ima think about this some more...
This may require a large re-working of the underlying gameplay, but I think it is worth it for the benefits of how much more accessible and fun it would make NS2 and how much easier it would be to balance and diversify gameplay.
I think what aliens need is synergy towards the skulks from advanced lifeforms, especially Lerk and Fade:
Lerk: When a Lerk has recently (5 seconds tops) shot and hit a marine, a Skulk does 25% more damage to it. A skulk running through a Lerk spore cloud gains +25% movement speed.
Fade: If within 10 meters of a Fade, leap is 25% longer and you can use it three times.
Onos: If within 10 meters of an Onos, skulks gain 25% health.
This change would have very subtle impact on balance but would make playing the game as aliens be more tolerable for newbies without giving veteran players enough edge to tip balance in alien's favor, and we still retain the asymmetrical gameplay with lone skulks being just as disadvantaged as before.
I also purpously made the Lerk's contribution the strongest, because Lerk is the least played Alien adv. lifeform and needs a boost, though I do not think straight up increasing Lerk damage is the way to go. Helping skulks do more damage is ideal.
can a marine ball teleport around the map or sprint as fast as zerglings?
The question is what kind of probability of dying people feel it's fun and fair ? 80%, 60%, 50% ?
And what is the probability currently in game?
Basically you can design your game around skulks being weak, strong, or balanced with vanilla marines. The only relevant questions are which possibility is more fun for the players and how do you measure it's working as designed in game.
I'm not seeing it at all man. . .
This is RTS/FPS so there is much more to look at than K/D
Map control, current tech, # of nodes probably play a much more important notifier in which team is winning than who is winning more skirmishes
But lets say what you're saying is true and people think that aliens are losing
Now you have a situation where that person watching thinks that aliens must be suddenly having a comeback during that game because they end up winning
The watcher is surprised and probably finds the match much more entertaining to watch when a more seasoned person might find it boring because to them it was obvious who was going to win the whole game
marines can sprint as fast as that ? <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNLHGSzXySU" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNLHGSzXySU</a>
Please tell me more.
I want an equal chance against any enemy that I can come up against regardless of what has happened previously in the game, or what will happen in the future. I want instant gratification in every single encounter, because I can't be bothered to think past the here and now, or strategise for the future.
And the OP would be completely correct. The vast majority of players will not and do not like the style of game that NS is. That's why the total sales figure of 144k was far above what UWE had anticipated, and why selling less than a million copies in the first week is a financial catastrophe for Activision.
This is part of why we have such a bland RTS element (the other part being it was always intended to be mainly an FPS), many RTS gameplay features/abilities/units, etc simply do not work well when it is actual players controlling the units (stuns/freezes/lockouts, etc).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what are the units played by then? the manifestation of the holy spirit?
good players know what position and action is needed to be the most efficient. therefore i stand by my light starcraft analogy in exemplifying how 1:1 individual unit balance is totally irrelevant to overall game balance, as is the whole KDR concept - this is a strategic game and not team deathmatch.
anyway, i somewhat agreed with you on the point that skulk is too difficult to play compared to marine - but again i stand by my point about the medpack drops. from my experience, skulk vs marine is relatively fine if the marine has 100 hp, only starting to skew when the marine has 100 hp and an additional 50 hp every time the commander shells out 1 res.
obviously the marines are going to be superior to skulk once they're packing 20-30 pres shotgun and/or jetpack, but then the addition of medpacks to that equation leads to a situation where the medpacks are effectively a giant boot stomping your face into the pavement.
like i said though... it's problematic to alter medpacks without making the game overly convoluted... marines clearly need medpacks earlier, because with their lack of early game (or non-PG) mobility they need that lifesaver to stop them getting totally trapped in a corner in the first 5-10 minutes etc. this is just my observations from pub/comp play at least.
edit: and regarding medpacks, they are only one example - there are probably dozens of viable game balance answers to keep that marine advantage from exploding in late game.
I want an equal chance against any enemy that I can come up against regardless of what has happened previously in the game, or what will happen in the future. I want instant gratification in every single encounter, because I can't be bothered to think past the here and now, or strategise for the future.
And the OP would be completely correct. The vast majority of players will not and do not like the style of game that NS is. That's why the total sales figure of 144k was far above what UWE had anticipated, and why selling less than a million copies in the first week is a financial catastrophe for Activision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow. You really are something. You equate "wanting an equal chance against the enemy" with COD mentality? I guess that's why everyone who plays Call of Duty doesn't max out the cheesiest perks and doesn't prone-dive to make themselves less of a target. I guess that's why Call of Duty isn't nothing more than everyone playing Sniper because they can take out Assault classes from across the map with little threat. Oh wait. No. Wait. That's exactly what COD is. The complete opposite of "equal chance" gaming.
There's nothing wrong with "equal chance" gaming. You're confusing it with symmetrical gaming. That is, indeed, stale and boring. That is, indeed, what Call of Duty boils down to. Both sides are exactly the same. Both sides have exactly the same weapons and perks. It's just run and gun. It's just monotonous deathmatch. There's very little "hard strategy" involved. You can have "equal chance gaming" and asymmetry. It's just hard to balance, hence why there's constant issues on the forums.
There's nothing wrong with instant gratification either. That's the entire purpose people play video games. I know you like to think you're some sort of veteran remembering the good ol' days, but as time goes on, the argument against "COD mentality" is becoming more and more toxic than someone hypothetically defending it. It's not cool, especially when Natural Selection 2 is much more casual than the games the actual veteran gamers you're trying to emulate were defending. You know, like Quakeworld?
That sums it up very well, thanks Yuuki. I don't believe the current situation is accessible to the majority of people (even the majority of the current 144,000) and I do not see any particular gain from this system against having far more players.
There are so many symmetrical features already, why does that particular system need to be asymmetrical? Is there any advantage to it which makes it worth sacrificing so much playability.
The units themselves are controlled by AI. The computer processes movement commands (pathing), attacks (melee checks, aiming), etc. All the player does (mostly) in RTS games is general commands (move over there, fire in this direction, attack over there, etc). There is a huge difference between this and playing an FPS where most of your game revolves around your single unit, which you have complete control over. You process every aspect of movement (you need to manage pathing yourself, movement impairing effects can become very frustrating), you need to aim yourself (vision impairing effects can become very frustrating), etc.