Expand upon the Aggressive nature of the Bacterium?
BearTornado
Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 166223Members
Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 166223Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Countering the Marine's defensive capability</div>Just watched a 50 minute match on youtube (mineshaft, Alien commander perspective), if you care to see it yourself here's a link: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPEwRYCidKw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPEwRYCidKw</a>
The match was otherwise a great match for a pub game. I've taken a great liking to the NS2HD channel since I first discovered his videos, he did a fantastic job with aggressive pushes and guiding his teammates, and the Marines were definitely competent enough to put up a great fight. One thing that I got thinking about again around the 30 minute mark was how (as usual) the Aliens still struggled to push forward even though they managed to effectively control a majority of the map. Even after the Marine base in Repair went down it was painfully hard for the Aliens to break into that final Marine base. If you turn the tables where it was the Marines owning 3 bases and against the final 2 Alien hives, they would steamroll over those two hives in no time, provided they weren't taking their time to turtle around the map.
So once again, I got thinking about the Aliens otherwise lack of defense. There's already plenty of threads on improving the power of individual Aliens, but I got thinking about the asymmetry of the game. Marines are clearly better at denying access to Areas with seemingly less effort. Phase Gates and observatories put them well ahead of Alien mobility once those are on the field. Aliens do have some defensive structures, but they can't always be used to the same effect as Marine structures can, especially when Grenade Launchers and Flamethrowers are in play.
To get to the point, I go to thinking about the bacterium and how Aliens spread across the map. While making structures tougher could help, the bacterium seems more like something that should be far more aggressive in nature. As it sounds in the Lore, the entirety of it is a collective consciousness. So I feel like spreading cysts should mean more than creating space to build structures, but rather it should be very aggressive, perhaps having negative effects on any marines and marine structures that it grows on/near.
I haven't thought out exactly what it would do, but when you take into account the mobility of phase gates and observatories, and how easy it is to turtle rooms, it should be responded to with a highly aggressive bacterium that justifies the need to deny it access so effectively, to the point where when moving into Alien territory the sheer amount of Offense marines encounter becomes the Aliens defense.
I'm open to anyone who could get with this idea and maybe throw out suggestions for how it could be implemented. Or maybe there's other content along the way that makes such a change unnecessary.
Or maybe my idea is just stupid :P (but don't just call it stupid without explaining why! D:).
The match was otherwise a great match for a pub game. I've taken a great liking to the NS2HD channel since I first discovered his videos, he did a fantastic job with aggressive pushes and guiding his teammates, and the Marines were definitely competent enough to put up a great fight. One thing that I got thinking about again around the 30 minute mark was how (as usual) the Aliens still struggled to push forward even though they managed to effectively control a majority of the map. Even after the Marine base in Repair went down it was painfully hard for the Aliens to break into that final Marine base. If you turn the tables where it was the Marines owning 3 bases and against the final 2 Alien hives, they would steamroll over those two hives in no time, provided they weren't taking their time to turtle around the map.
So once again, I got thinking about the Aliens otherwise lack of defense. There's already plenty of threads on improving the power of individual Aliens, but I got thinking about the asymmetry of the game. Marines are clearly better at denying access to Areas with seemingly less effort. Phase Gates and observatories put them well ahead of Alien mobility once those are on the field. Aliens do have some defensive structures, but they can't always be used to the same effect as Marine structures can, especially when Grenade Launchers and Flamethrowers are in play.
To get to the point, I go to thinking about the bacterium and how Aliens spread across the map. While making structures tougher could help, the bacterium seems more like something that should be far more aggressive in nature. As it sounds in the Lore, the entirety of it is a collective consciousness. So I feel like spreading cysts should mean more than creating space to build structures, but rather it should be very aggressive, perhaps having negative effects on any marines and marine structures that it grows on/near.
I haven't thought out exactly what it would do, but when you take into account the mobility of phase gates and observatories, and how easy it is to turtle rooms, it should be responded to with a highly aggressive bacterium that justifies the need to deny it access so effectively, to the point where when moving into Alien territory the sheer amount of Offense marines encounter becomes the Aliens defense.
I'm open to anyone who could get with this idea and maybe throw out suggestions for how it could be implemented. Or maybe there's other content along the way that makes such a change unnecessary.
Or maybe my idea is just stupid :P (but don't just call it stupid without explaining why! D:).
Comments
I always though the slowdown and effective parasitic effect made sense, would be keen to see a return....would help address the issue of marines being able to just run past defenses and go sniping upgrades.
They would be slower meaning more damage taken by any of the measly defenses the aliens have and also show up and stop them being able to hide so effectively.
Sadly they backed those cool parts out and we now have marines able to run as fast a skulks early game and easily sneak in and snipe upgrades (I am guilty of having butter fingers with my pistol and then going upgrade hunting) thus hurting the alien economy a LOT as they need to redrop and re-research (double cost) all over again.
I don't know how much you know about the beta versions of the game, but infestation also used to slow down marines somewhat. It was removed because UWE doesn't like to add restrictive gameplay elements. (Which I wholeheartedly agree with.) However, it left the infestation as little more than eyecandy; it could really use an offensive (or even defensive) purpose.
I don't know how much you know about the beta versions of the game, but infestation also used to slow down marines somewhat. It was removed because UWE doesn't like to add restrictive gameplay elements. (Which I wholeheartedly agree with.) However, it left the infestation as little more than eyecandy; it could really use an offensive (or even defensive) purpose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had thought about it slowing down marines, and while effective I can see the lack of appeal due to being restrictive. Maybe it prevents them from being able to sprint, so they can still move at normal speed but are unable to run, meaning without jetpacks retreating out of Alien Territory is not as easy. Or it could weaken marine armor, right now armor is worth 2hp per point right? Perhaps on infestation it becomes less effective, only being equal to 1-1.5hp. So they'll still be tougher with their armor upgrades, and the khammader is encouraged to spread more infestation to negate those upgrades to some degree. And perhaps it also damages marine structures if it spreads around them. Once the Aliens have the upper hand and available resources, flooding marine bases with cysts could be a strategy in itself giving lower life forms more of a distraction whie the marines deal with the cysts.
It could also give Aliens who are fighting in rooms with infestation some advantage that doesn't already exist with other structures, such as jumping with greater force for the skulks (perhaps enough of a boost to launch a skulk from the floor to the ceiling). Gorges already slide better on infestation (or at least it seems like they do), maybe it should allow them to even slide up slopes wherever it has spread. Seems like a lot could be done with it.
On a final note, one of the things I don't like is how unbuilt power nodes at the start of the game still power lights, and only have to be built for structures; ultimately if the Marines never build in a room, the area containing an Alien hive can be as well lit as any other area. Maybe when the bacterium spreads to one of those empty nodes, it automatically cuts off the lights, and so by default all Alien rooms will be on emergency light. Even then emergency light itself should be darker, there are many rooms where I'd rather not use my flashlight because it would actually make it harder to see in the emergency light that is already there. It would be more effective if the whole room was just dark except for emergency light over the power node. It should be a challenge rather than a mild inconvenience for marines to work in a room without power. But that's another discussion which would probably lead into improving Alien vision too.
Take down remaining phasegates then onos with backup of skulks (or just 3-4 skulks if marines left their base) can drop a power node in seconds before the marines can drop them.
Again, I only ever see turtle games where the alien team is highly inept at coordinating, (or just downright refuse to go for the power) , the marines were fully upgraded and the aliens are turning in into a meatgrinder.
A bit of inflection on playstyle before blaming the game would be nice.
This complaint feels similar to a cs player complaining they empty an entire clip into an enemy and they won't die! :p
Take down remaining phasegates then onos with backup of skulks (or just 3-4 skulks if marines left their base) can drop a power node in seconds before the marines can drop them.
Again, I only ever see turtle games where the alien team is highly inept at coordinating, (or just downright refuse to go for the power) , the marines were fully upgraded and the aliens are turning in into a meatgrinder.
A bit of inflection on playstyle before blaming the game would be nice.
This complaint feels similar to a cs player complaining they empty an entire clip into an enemy and they won't die! :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you watch the video? Marines can effectively deny an Onos access to their final base by placing Robot factories or Armories at the entrances to their base. I've even heard of Marines locking an onos out of hallways with a single armory. Imagine if the commander had the foresight to surround their power node with such structures? Even if it was made impossible to do such placements, it still doesn't change issues on the class-level where the onos is absolutely necessary to deal with late game marines. If you send any less than an onos into a marine base during late-game it will get wrecked before it can do any significant damage to anything, if you can even get into their base when everyone has a Grenade launcher and is turning the Hallways outside their base into meatgrinders. While it was a pub game, the Alien team has certainly passed the rookie stage, they did a fine job of following their Khammander's instructions and properly applying pressure to marines where necessary, and it still took a while to finalize the victory.
But again, that's not what this thread is about. A hallway covered in Alien Infestation doesn't have any sort of effect on a Marine's willingness to walk into it besides the fact that they need to watch out for Aliens. Maybe there's a few whips they take down from a distance, though unless the Aliens can afford them it's unlikely you'll see many of those. Your only real concern when you walk into Alien territory is how soon they'll come after you once you start taking down their structures. All it takes is 1 marine to stroll into an Alien hive and cut down upgrades to cripple an Alien team. Meanwhile at every available room marines can have almost instant access from phase gates, and a turret installation that renders skulks useless for harassment unless there's bad turret placement. At each significant point along a map Marines can easily set up a base of some sort that can be instantly accessed by phase gate, and for their actual Commander Chair bases they can use observatories to instantly recall to it. I'm aware this is intended to counter the mobility of the Aliens, but there's no denying it effectively slingshots Marine mobility well beyond the Alien's current potential. Even if destroying the Armory removed the marine upgrades it doesn't change how significantly harder it is to pull that off with a skulk as it would be with a marine, especially once late game marine upgrades are in effect.
Maybe have powered rooms slow the spread of infestation to help keep a comm from just spamming cysts around a power node as quickly as possible.
Making the game more annoying to play (by making marines move slower, or god forbid something asinine as ###### with marine vision -if we get strawberry jam on our face like in cod, or blur , or desaturation then I'm out and this game can go to hell for me :p) is never a solution for anything.
@ Beartornado, I've never seen those mythical GL+ armory spam endless meatgrinder matches in a pub game.
Bile bomb ###### on armories in seconds, com can't just spam them endlessly when all they hold is their main base in turtlemode.
You also seem to forget that once the aliens hold most of the map they have enough resource flow to throw endless amounts of oni at the marine spawn... trading 2-3 oni for marine structures when you have 7 extractors and they have 1 is still going to win you the game.
You'd take a dump on the rest of the gameplay and delicate balance to try n avoid the odd bad alien coordination/50 min game where the marines held a ton of extractors for ages and the com saved up 200 res and marines want to turtle for god knows what motives?
Seems more like a community issue that needs to be adressed if you encounter such games often (I've only encountered them 3 times in 46+ hours, every time due to poor coordination on alien side + people unable to commit to an attack and chickening out).
People should learn to just GG or not go into douchy troll turtle mode to try and buy an extra 5-10 mins of meatgrinder against rookie alien teams.
Babyproofing is way too common these days in all aspects of life.
Play nice and everyone can have a good time, then we wouldn't even have to dignify these scenarios.
Making the game more annoying to play (by making marines move slower, or god forbid something asinine as ###### with marine vision -if we get strawberry jam on our face like in cod, or blur , or desaturation then I'm out and this game can go to hell for me :p) is never a solution for anything.
@ Beartornado, I've never seen those mythical GL+ armory spam endless meatgrinder matches in a pub game.
Bile bomb ###### on armories in seconds, com can't just spam them endlessly when all they hold is their main base in turtlemode.
You also seem to forget that once the aliens hold most of the map they have enough resource flow to throw endless amounts of oni at the marine spawn... trading 2-3 oni for marine structures when you have 7 extractors and they have 1 is still going to win you the game.
You'd take a dump on the rest of the gameplay and delicate balance to try n avoid the odd bad alien coordination/50 min game where the marines held a ton of extractors for ages and the com saved up 200 res and marines want to turtle for god knows what motives?
Seems more like a community issue that needs to be adressed if you encounter such games often (I've only encountered them 3 times in 46+ hours, every time due to poor coordination on alien side + people unable to commit to an attack and chickening out).
People should learn to just GG or not go into douchy troll turtle mode to try and buy an extra 5-10 mins of meatgrinder against rookie alien teams.
Babyproofing is way too common these days in all aspects of life.
Play nice and everyone can have a good time, then we wouldn't even have to dignify these scenarios.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never having experienced such scenarios does not automatically mean they don't occur. That's just blatant ignorance, and just as destructive to a game's community as "babyproofing" is. The people who have a bad experience are playing the same game. The ones who bother to post about it are interested in if/how the game could be improved. Believe me, there are games where I very briefly visit the forums before I'm done. I quietly stop playing a game and don't give it a second thought, the steam statistics can certainly show this trend. You see this ugly plummet in activity after the game's release of all the players who would rather go play something else and maybe come back if the game improves, not wanting to deal with the forums at all.
Believe it or not where I heard of such scenarios was players discussing how they were used in <b><u><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Tournaments.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></u></b>. Not just used, but even endorsed to counter the early onos strategy. A simple peek at "skilled" gameplay shows that strategies rapidly deteriorate to getting the onos first, or stopping it first, and then the game is decided. And yet again, that's not the point of this thread, the ugly of individual Alien classes was merely a side note in this thread. So was the details of how the match ended, nothing more than a side note in relation to how the Aliens have to make a significant effort to push into Marine territory, so the Marines should have to do the same when in Alien territory.
On maps the nature of the marine team is to be able to reinforce positions they control with tough structures that heal/reload marines, turret installations, and phase gates that ultimately make up the map control aspect of the Marine's strategy. Aliens seem to lack in this department, the Khammander can set up mini bases with crags and shifts to allow Aliens an easy hit and run point of access, but that's far easier to overrun by the marines than it would be for Aliens to overrun a similar position set up by the marines (short of getting that onos out on the field--- again, lets not discuss that). My idea was to make infestation something that required consideration before just strolling into it; either consideration of the effects it had on you, or of the advantages Aliens gained from it. Whichever it is, it should be something significant enough to be worth consdiering. And no, I wouldn't want more screen blur nonsense, from the screenshots I've seen its annoying enough as is with the few alien attacks that do cover your screen in goo or gas.